Author Topic: A HO?  (Read 2102 times)

Offline BlauK

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2009, 07:42:15 AM »
If I end up into an HO position for some reason and decide to continue on that cource, I will not save my bullets and I do expect to get fired at as well.
If I dont want to get fired at, I will evade from HO cource.

If it is just a quick moment, I'll probably squeeze the trigger if I am quick enougth to react to it.

IMO, HO is just a more risky shooting position. Nothing else. Shoot or dont shoot... just dont whine about the result.


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Offline Shuffler

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2009, 08:34:27 AM »
Was online last night for the first time in a week or so and got into a good fight (2 of 3 last night were good one-on-ones) with me in a Spixteen against a Seafire (the other good fight was me in a Temp vs. a Ta-152).

So anyway, this fight had been going on for about 5 minutes.  We ended up slightly seperated and as we both came around I had the opportunity to take a HO shot, which I did.  It's not like it was an opening merge or that we had 1.5K seperation or anything but there was some seperation.

The pilot ended up ditching safely denying me the kill.  He then posted something about HOing on 200 to which I PM'd him my response which lead to a heated exchange of name calling which led to a trip to the DA where we had five really fun fights.  <S> dude... any time you want to do that again let me know.

Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?

I've always played that after the merge anything goes.

No.

A ho is a ho no matter when it occurs. Why ruin a good fight. The only time a ho may be acceptable in my book is when you are greatly out numbered.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2009, 09:35:45 AM »
DISCLAIMER:  I will no longer address this question as no matter what I say, it will be misconstrued.   
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Offline MaSonZ

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2009, 10:04:56 AM »
when i played i tried to avoid the shot, didnt always have the chance to, or the time, but i tried. many times i fired first, but i tried to let the other person fire first. after 5 minutes i wouldnt have taken the shot personally, but that could also have depended on if he had buddies within 6K or not, my E compared to what i thought his E was, etc. etc.
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Offline strong10

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2009, 05:09:29 PM »
Its fairly easy to learn how do dodge most HO shots.  In general I don't mind when a guy goes for the HO shot most times because I've already started turning for his six while he is spraying wildly at me and I know he will soon be dead. 
  When a guy doesn't take the HO shot who could have, he has my instant respect(whatever its worth) no matter the outcome.  The best dogfights I've had with the better players do not involve any HO shots, the worst ones involve HO shots. 
  That being said, when I'm flying an IL2 for base defense and going after vulchers and hordes, the HO light will be on. 
  *Hint* If you haven't figured it out yet(lol).  Don't HO an IL2 because their cannon are devastating and very accurate as well as being a heavily armored plane.  I'm always amused when I'm in a Ho'ing match with an IL2 vs A6M.           

Offline Spikes

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2009, 05:13:04 PM »
Its fairly easy to learn how do dodge most HO shots.  In general I don't mind when a guy goes for the HO shot most times because I've already started turning for his six while he is spraying wildly at me and I know he will soon be dead. 
  When a guy doesn't take the HO shot who could have, he has my instant respect(whatever its worth) no matter the outcome.  The best dogfights I've had with the better players do not involve any HO shots, the worst ones involve HO shots. 
  That being said, when I'm flying an IL2 for base defense and going after vulchers and hordes, the HO light will be on. 
  *Hint* If you haven't figured it out yet(lol).  Don't HO an IL2 because their cannon are devastating and very accurate as well as being a heavily armored plane.  I'm always amused when I'm in a Ho'ing match with an IL2 vs A6M.          
Yeah...what I find amusing is when I fly straight and level, and some guy comes in to my high 12 and sprays from 1.5K out to try and kill me...and dosen't even get a ping. It's not half as funny in text form.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2009, 09:33:32 PM »
I fly by one rule (or try to) with regard to HO's in the MA: If the other guy goes for the shot, I evade. If he evades, I go for the shot.

Seems to work pretty well.
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Offline strong10

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2009, 12:11:30 AM »
I fly by one rule (or try to) with regard to HO's in the MA: If the other guy goes for the shot, I evade. If he evades, I go for the shot.

Seems to work pretty well.

Hmm.. So you're a HO'er then..  and where is the part of trying to get on his six?   What do you do when he doesn't shoot or evade, ram each other?

Offline SkyRock

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2009, 12:17:57 AM »
NO

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2009, 12:26:52 AM »
I still contend the fella taking the HO shot is already conceding that your better than he is. Otherwise he'd try to fight instead.
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Offline Crash Orange

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2009, 04:51:44 AM »
It depends on the situation.

If it's a straightforward no-frills merge, even if we've been fighting a while I'll avoid him - I may still be distinctly mediocre but I've learned enough to know he's giving me an advantage by trying to HO when he should be thinking about where he's going to be and what he's going to do after the merge, and I'll be giving HIM one if I'm the one trying the HO. I figure I can avoid at least 80% of those and that's a lot better chance than I have playing chicken (but then, I'm not Ben Affleck).

If we're maneuvering hard and I see I will have a very fleeting shot, altering my maneuver to evade will put me in a worse position, and the maneuver I'm in will pull me off him long before we collide, I'll take it even though it's low percentage. I'm not going to put myself in a worse position just because some guy thinks a HO is dishonorable. But usually those HOs can still be avoided and I'll try that if it looks practical.

If I think I have a much better shot than he has, I'll take it. If I'm going to be around on him a full second before he's around on me, heck yeah, I'll take the shot. Technically a HO because he's facing more or less at me and our flight paths will intersect if no one turns, but I know I can hit him (even I don't miss a shot like that very often), kill him, and evade the wreckage, so why not take it?

Just tonight I roped a guy and didn't have quite as much e as I should have, started turning over the top while he was still facing up, but he was shooting and I could see he was wobbling and a split second from stalling and there was no way he had enough control to get his guns on me. So I pulled on over, pointed straight down at him, blew his wing off as he was stalling, and flew past him on the way down. Again, technically a HO, but I knew he almost certainly couldn't hit me or ram me, so why not take it?

If I'm in a Jug and in front of a Lanc, damn straight I'll HO him. I have 8 .50s to his 2 .303s (if I approach from low), he has a glass nose, I'm probably above my base in case he hits my radiator, and he won't be  maneuvering so I know I can avoid ramming him. It's a decent percentage shot, take it.

If it's one giant 30-plane furball and I don't think he sees me I'll take it, but just a quick burst and pull off quick (the opposite direction of his thrust vector, if possible) to avoid the ram without waiting to see if I kill him. In a fight like that, you take any shot that comes to you. I'm not going to be reengaging that guy after the merge regardless, we'll both have other worries long before that happens. If I hit him, what the heck, I may get a kill 5 minutes later when his wounded pilot crashes or his oil runs out. If not, I've lost nothing.

The point is that the reason a HO is considered lame is because it's just a roll of the dice and the odds are high neither of you will survive it. If for whatever reason that's not the case and you have a much better shot and a relatively low risk of colliding or being shot, even if you are or will shortly be more or less facing each other, I don't see why there's anything wrong with taking it. There's no 11th Commandment pasted under my gunsight saying "Thou shalt not shoot anyone in the schnoz." And if he whines about it, whatever. Sure, sometimes you'll miscalculate. So what? There's always *some* luck involved.

That's me, anyway. YMMV

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2009, 05:09:15 AM »

agreed :aok

everyone seems so precious about the HO thing, maybe if the DA merge rule was more sensible (co-alt til icon range then do whatever you want) people would be more prepared for it in the MAs.
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Offline strong10

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2009, 06:32:15 AM »

It depends on the situation.


Ok, reread 1st post to see situation below..

Was online last night for the first time in a week or so and got into a good fight (2 of 3 last night were good one-on-ones) with me in a Spixteen against a Seafire (the other good fight was me in a Temp vs. a Ta-152).

So anyway, this fight had been going on for about 5 minutes.  We ended up slightly seperated and as we both came around I had the opportunity to take a HO shot, which I did.  It's not like it was an opening merge or that we had 1.5K seperation or anything but there was some seperation.

The pilot ended up ditching safely denying me the kill.  He then posted something about HOing on 200 to which I PM'd him my response which lead to a heated exchange of name calling which led to a trip to the DA where we had five really fun fights.  <S> dude... any time you want to do that again let me know.

Now my question is; after 5 minutes of jostling would you have taken the HO shot?

I've always played that after the merge anything goes.

Didn't see that he was head on against bombers or involved in any 30 plane gang trying to HO the only red guy.  I'm sure there are more excuses to HO than listed earlier like..
 
  -What if the guy is better than me, I'm gonna HO him since that will be the only time he is near my gunsights and since I suck and refuse to try and improve my ACM I better HO everybody.  Any move after the HO I will be placing myself in a worse position so I will take HO shot, right?


   -What if you're part of a huge hoard and there is only one enemy plane and you know that if you don't HO the only red guy, you're not gonna get the kill because you're buddies will get him and you won't have any kills.. 


   -What if you just get shot down and your plane is blown in two but the little front part of your plane does a quick 180 and is now facing the guy that just blasted you?  That's a legitimate shot isn't it because you will be dead soon anyways..better yet, hold keep firing all the way down hoping you'll get somebody especially if picking isn't going all that well that night. 

   -If I'm eating Cheetos and my hand is all greasy and my finger slips on the trigger on a merge, that's a valid excuse isn't it. 

   -What if I think the guy is about to HO shot me first?  Gonna take shot to get him before he gets me.   

   -How about if you're flying a N1K or spit16 you should always HO right?

   -If a guy is whining about something on 200 isn't that reason enough for a HO shot?


  IMO players should treat other with more respect than with a 2 second dogfight starting and ended in a HO shot.  Let it play out and twist and turn, roll and spin for a minute or two, maybe 5 if you're really lucky to get such an engagement. 
  Does there really need to be a written rule or commandment to understand this concept??  If anyone would like some practice with dodging a HO shot, let me know and we can go to the TA or contact a trainer or squaddy.     
   


Offline humble

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2009, 08:00:12 AM »
Simple answer:  No

When in doubt the answer is no...

Where I have an issue with this is in a fight between dissimilar plane types or where the bogey chose a tactic that forced a defensive response and then ignored a requirement to avoid presenting a shot. I don't know if I still have the film but I posted a clip (and pic) on the BBS after being accused of a "HO". I was "bounced by a +E la-7 while in a B pony. I was on climb out from base and he came in with both alt and E...leading to a "merge" that really was a series of looping +E attacks. I couldn't run (not that I wanted to), couldn't get up out of his wheelhouse do to E differential....so I was locked into -E angles defense looking to manufacture a shot. Now this certainly qualified as a "dog fight" and went on for a bit...but it wasn't an even start or a "duel".

I wore him down   a bit till he had to either regroup or force the fight. As he kept cutting back in slashing hi yoyo type attacks I finally sat on the move and went "all in"...he ignored my positioning and I popped him in the canopy....." :furious :furious HO :furious :furious HO :furious PPPPPP"

Now to me the reality is it was a fun fight but one he completely controlled. I had to live thru 10 or more attacks where he fired guns to get one shot, that he had every opportunity to avoid in a scenario where he had a plane with every advantage (in that instance)...IMO he has to respect my shot window or take his chances flying thru it.

If you look at the pic you can see flap setting and out of plane....I was literally hanging on the prop nose up inside his turn radius waiting on him as he came back around after missing his last pass. This is a reverse IMO and not a HO...he needed to extend not continue to pull back into my flight path.


« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 08:02:18 AM by humble »

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Offline BlauK

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Re: A HO?
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2009, 09:31:12 AM »
Hmm.. So you're a HO'er then..  and where is the part of trying to get on his six?   What do you do when he doesn't shoot or evade, ram each other?

Hmm.. So you're a Coward then? You only appreciate sneaking from behind and taking no risk shots?  :rolleyes:  :P

You are obviously misinterpreting the concept of "going for a shot". Read it as "pointing guns at the enemy" and you may get it. There is no use of pointing guns at the enemy if you are not going to shoot.

Die Hard's rule would quite effectively prevent all HO's from happening.


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