Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lusche on May 12, 2009, 01:39:39 PM
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Why?
Main goal is to get a bit more diversity. Light bombers/attackers like SBD, TBM, Ki-67, ju-87 are quite underused in the LW arena, and that's not surprising when considering that our typical heavy fighter is usually carrying a way heavier payload
Basic changes
Current perks per plane stay the same. Added in hangar are perk costs for certain loadout choices:
All fighters:
Rockets: Free
Bombs up to 250lbs: Free
500lbs/250kg: 1 perk per bomb (I am aware that this is maybe a bit too strict)
1000lbs/500kg: 2 perks per bomb
All heavy bombers:
Bombs up to 1000lbs/500kg Free
2000lbs/1000kg : 1 perk per bomb
4000lbs/1800kg: 3 perks per bomb
Unlike plane perks, these perks are spend: Once you drop the bomb, the perks you payed are gone.
37mm gun package Il2: 5 perks
F4U 20mm gun package: 15 perks (Merging F4U-D and -C into one plane & pay perks per gun selection)
Future perked packages could be the 57mm on a Mossie, the BK 5 cannon on a Me 410 etc.
Balance considerations
Now when putting those changes into effect, it's quite likely that we would see simply a huge increase of 110Gs and N1Ks simply strafing everything down, as guns are much more potent than bombs vs. structures anyway: Currently the big gun package on the 110G is equivalent to 5600lbs of bombs, the N1k's guns are equal to 3000lbs of bombs!
In order to prevent this, all guns <=37mm should get their damage vs structures (only) reduced by half.
Note that the B-25H's 75mm isn't affected by that, as well all the tank guns (but not the Wirbelwind)
Getting perks
Now, it's pretty obvious that bomber perks are the ones you are gonna using for perked ordinance.
But to not penalize players that do Jabo stuff but don't fly buffs, there has to be a small change here as well:
All perks gained in "attack" scoring mode are bomber perks.
(Side effect: Milking strats won't give you perks for 262's anymore ;))
As the title already said, these are just some thoughts up for discussion. Not a polished wish yet, that's why I'm posting in AH General Discussions
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Lusche,
If your in heavy bombers your not really going to be affected. The Lancasters heaviest load is fourteen 1,000 lbers and would be free. The B-24 can carry the same amount (in weight) of 1k bombs vs 2k bombs. B-17 doesnt carry anything above 1k so no effect here. Also you would be punishing the Ju-87 if they use 1,000 kg or 1,800 kg bomb. I appreciate the goal for diversity but dont see this changing much from the ordnance perspective.
Edit: I have asked for perked ordnance in the past although in a different direction. Parabombs, incendiary bombs, time delay fusing (for bombs and AA) and even dreamed of a V1-V2.
<S> Strip
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Lusche,
If your in heavy bombers your not really going to be affected. The Lancasters heaviest load is fourteen 1,000 lbers and would be free. The B-24 can carry the same amount (in weight) of 1k bombs vs 2k bombs. B-17 doesnt carry anything above 1k so no effect here. Also you would be punishing the Ju-87 if they use 1,000 kg or 1,800 kg bomb. I appreciate the goal for diversity but dont see this changing much from the ordnance perspective.
I didnt try to affect heavy bombers much. Main goal (see above) was directed more to hy fighters carrying 2.5k of ords all the time.
Also, I nowhere stated that light bombers ordonance loadout would be perked at all. The 1800kg loadout for the Stuka is still free.
And of course in such a system there would be place for different types of special bombs. For example parabombs... or genuine AP bombs.
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Why would the BK5 be perked?
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Why would the BK5 be perked?
This is going to be an interesting discussion...
(http://forums.huntingresource.com/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif)
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Why would the BK5 be perked?
I'm not saying is would have to be.. that's just a list of possible future additions. The appropriateness is another discussion. ;)
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With regards to perks used for the ord would it be use of bomber perks or would it use your Fighter perks? An example say you want a P47N loaded to the gills would it use bomber or fighter perks? Maybe another way of doin this would be to create your perks category just for attack fighters.
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I see where your going Lusche althought I question its effect. The perk values you have listed are really cheap for fighters. It might stop new or inexperienced players from suiciding. I think in the long run people would just stop carrying ordnance. I usually take bombs instead of DT's so I can bomb and go A2A after that. Most heavy fighters (in my eyes) ultimate goal is to kill aircraft. True you get base take folks taking out hangars and stuff with them tho. I will try anything once tho....
:D
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Just curious Lusche.
Strip, I think that anti-suicider effect would be great. I can't think of any negative consequences off-hand...
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Exactly what is it your trying to fix, or improve, or change?
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Interesting points I would agree with. My only concern is that perking ord may drive the game more towards being nothing but one giant furball & take away the incentive to fly anything but fighter sweeps.
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With regards to perks used for the ord would it be use of bomber perks or would it use your Fighter perks? An example say you want a P47N loaded to the gills would it use bomber or fighter perks? Maybe another way of doin this would be to create your perks category just for attack fighters.
Bomber perks. See "Getting perks" paragraph
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Exactly what is it your trying to fix, or improve, or change?
Not fix... but promote diversity. Not taking simply the biggest bomb, giving an incentive of using genuine attackers / light bombers over fighters in certain situations.
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Exactly what is it your trying to fix, or improve, or change?
Diversity. He is trying to encourage the use of "light" bombers vs. fighter bombers.
Back to the OP.
IMO >30mm weapons are underpowered against structures as it is. The Yak-9T in particular. The advantage of the Bf 110's gun package, and the N1K2 or Tiff/Temp or Hurri 2C, is a product of the amount of guns more than the size of an individual gun. Even 6 .50s in a P-51 or F4U will take more buildings down than a single 37mm.
I would surmise that this is actually the effect of Hit % as much as anything. More guns = more lead hitting the target more frequently.
Otherwise, interesting idea. Only real objection would be why lose the perks if you still can manage to land? Perk all ords and, at the very least, this would go further to discourage bomb and bail or bomb and auger sorties.
wrongway
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I see where your going Lusche althought I question its effect. The perk values you have listed are really cheap for fighters.
Hmm.. I thought they were a tad too high already. ;) Note that a dropped bomb = spent perks in my version.
But of course I still see a lot of open questions. For example, many players around for a long time have thousands of bomber perks already and would'nt feel any effect for a long time.
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Only real objection would be why lose the perks if you still can manage to land? Perk all ords and, at the very least, this would go further to discourage bomb and bail or bomb and auger sorties.
That doesn't sound unreasonable.
Though many 1000lbs bombs are simply dropped on enemy tanks without much risk of dying.. And I would like to see some incentive to use a smaller (500lbs) unless really necessary (vs Tiger for example).
Hmmmm... still thinking about this
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Why would the BK5 be perked?
For the same reason the Mollins 57mm would have to be perked. Pyro told me a couple of years ago when I called HTC that their concern with the Mollins 57mm would be its ability to snipe bombers from outside of the range of the bomber's defensive guns. The BK5 would have the same issue attached to it.
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This is where I don't point out that the MK103 would be about as effective for that.
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I'm up for most change in the dynamics of gameplay. This game has to evolve / change to survive.. haha kidding, it has to do that to keep ME happy!
mememememe!!!!!!!!!!!!
then again I pay 30 bux a month for this game! :noid
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Not fix... but promote diversity. Not taking simply the biggest bomb, giving an incentive of using genuine attackers / light bombers over fighters in certain situations.
Well the idea is good but its never going to work. If one thing has been proven in this game, people are going to fly what they want.
It kinda sounds like you want to protect GVs more then they are. OK, Im with you. But do it in a far simpler manner. Get rid of the Lanc-stuka'ing, give GVs a tower pad near spawns, and my biggest one, penalize for bomb and bailing.
I dont think your plan would work because #1, nobody cares about bomber perks. They are going to take the biggest bombs anyways. What may work is giving away more perk points for taking out targets using smaller bombs. But even that would be overly complicated.
Much would be solved by introducing a more capable attack bomber, the TU-2 or the A-26. Ive been saying for how long we need more perk bombers, we really need a perk attack bomber most of all. Lacking that the TU-2 would be an extremely versatile non-perk attacker and would fill out the axis set more.
Lusche you could go to all that trouble with these changes and still they will be flinging their 1,000 lb bombs out their Lancs at 1,000'. They will still be loading the big eggs on their Jabos, or even worse, will simply stop taking ords period and the game will just be furball Island. Not a good scenario for an expert bomber hunter like you.
:salute
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Great idea, i personally like the B5N and TBM for bombing gvs because the slower speeds helps me drop better. I would love to see the Il2 perked due to the 2 times I had one strafe my Tiger one pass and kill me, it wasnt good shooting by the pilot he took the first angle he had on my Tiger. If the tiger is gunna be around 25 perks a tank the il2 with 37mm gun package and bombs should be atleast 8-10 perks... :salute
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Exactly what is it your trying to fix, or improve, or change?
Then Pyro first proposed the idea of a perked ordnance system, it was mentioned that it was brought about because we've already reached the max for ordnance. This kept planes like the B-25H from being able to carry ordnance like HVARs because the current ordnance system didn't allow for it. By introducing a perk system (Pyro never mentioned in detail how it was going to work) to the ordnance packages, things like perking the 37mm cannon on the LA 7 or loading up a B-25H with rockets would be possible. It would also possibly allow for other ordnance packages such as parafrags and the like.
ack-ack