Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SmokinLoon on May 17, 2009, 02:43:09 PM
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I've posted this question in another thread, but I figured I'd bring it to light out here in the open:
Why does HTC not use and abuse (figuratively) programming students from the local colleges as interens or at minimum cheap labor to correct issues of current game play, help model new aircraft and vehicles, develope new maps, and otherwise have around for other coding issues??? Just curious.
One would think that the developement of AH2 would be that much progressive if there were more hands on coding. I'm just saying. :)
Oh, and before anyone jumps on the "theft of data" concern, there are ways to stop *any* info from being uploaded or sent without the consent of the powers to be (HTC). While a concern, it would be minimal.
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"HiTech Creations was founded with a simple philosophy by Dale "HiTech" Addink in 1999. It's not to create a large corporation, a vast gaming network, or a line of online games. It's just to create a game, that is better than any other like it. Contrary to most companies, our goal is to keep the company small. We know that with a singular focus and an experienced cohesive team that enjoys its work, the production, service, support, and overall level of satisfaction will be unmatched. "
That's probably why ;)
Maps and skins are already done by the player base by the way.
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"HiTech Creations was founded with a simple philosophy by Dale "HiTech" Addink in 1999. It's not to create a large corporation, a vast gaming network, or a line of online games. It's just to create a game, that is better than any other like it. Contrary to most companies, our goal is to keep the company small. We know that with a singular focus and an experienced cohesive team that enjoys its work, the production, service, support, and overall level of satisfaction will be unmatched. "
I like it
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I dont look for new eye candy to keep me interested, (although it IS appreciated :aok) Enjoyment from the game can't solely come from that, or every few months ya end up making posts like this :D
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"HiTech Creations was founded with a simple philosophy by Dale "HiTech" Addink in 1999. It's not to create a large corporation, a vast gaming network, or a line of online games. It's just to create a game, that is better than any other like it. Contrary to most companies, our goal is to keep the company small. We know that with a singular focus and an experienced cohesive team that enjoys its work, the production, service, support, and overall level of satisfaction will be unmatched. "
That's probably why ;)
Maps and skins are already done by the player base by the way.
I already know about the player created skins and maps and they are very much appreciated and enjoyed. ;)
As for keeping the company small... one has to wonder how adding a few (2-3) student programmers would change their original intent of keeping the company small. It seems that there are 1000's of new ideas, improvements, aircraft, vehicles, etc etc (both community and HTC based) that could augment AH2, but the actual lack of manpower has got to be a factor in slowing down progress (progress can be difined very liberally, be it quality or quantity and AH2 can use a boost in both). Stop and think of *all* the solid ideas, errors/omissions, (both admitted/recognised and ignored), and improvements to AH2 that have been brought forth in these forums but have yet to get to the drawing board due to lack of manpower.
Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the game for what it is. But the thought crossed my mind since I did the same thing in my office (use local college interns to help in the office, etc).
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people come and go. That's called buisness. I'm here, yet I'll leave.
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I already know about the player created skins and maps and they are very much appreciated and enjoyed. ;)
As for keeping the company small... one has to wonder how adding a few (2-3) student programmers would change their original intent of keeping the company small. It seems that there are 1000's of new ideas, improvements, aircraft, vehicles, etc etc (both community and HTC based) that could augment AH2, but the actual lack of manpower has got to be a factor in slowing down progress (progress can be difined very liberally, be it quality or quantity and AH2 can use a boost in both). Stop and think of *all* the solid ideas, errors/omissions, (both admitted/recognised and ignored), and improvements to AH2 that have been brought forth in these forums but have yet to get to the drawing board due to lack of manpower.
Dont get me wrong, I enjoy the game for what it is. But the thought crossed my mind since I did the same thing in my office (use local college interns to help in the office, etc).
If you don't mind me asking....
What kind of business do you own and operate?
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Good question . Especially when they have at least one known bug for way over a year . They also either don't have the manpower or are disinterested in questions and concerns from a subscriber . Wonder what this will cost me to say this ?
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Hitech is busy, useing his gas mask for a bong. IMO :rofl oops thats fraked friday my bad!
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Good question . Especially when they have at least one known bug for way over a year . They also either don't have the manpower or are disinterested in questions and concerns from a subscriber . Wonder what this will cost me to say this ?
You owe me $27,000,000
wrongway
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Do you really want to drive a car designed by a student ?
Do you really want to check your bank account with a software designed by a student ?
Do you really want to go to ER and be examined by a student ?
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Don't you think it's a good reason to not do so ?
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Do you really want to drive a car designed by a student ?
Do you really want to check your bank account with a software designed by a student ?
Do you really want to go to ER and be examined by a student ?
...
Don't you think it's a good reason to not do so ?
You would be surprised of the fresh ideas and outlooks students bring into an office filled with "veterants".
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Do you really want to drive a car designed by a student ?
Do you really want to check your bank account with a software designed by a student ?
Do you really want to go to ER and be examined by a student ?
...
Don't you think it's a good reason to not do so ?
If they fixed the bug that bothers me I wouldn't care .
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You owe me $27,000,000
wrongway
take it out of the $35,000,000 you owe me ,and please pay balance soon .
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Do you really want to drive a car designed by a student ?
Do you really want to check your bank account with a software designed by a student ?
Do you really want to go to ER and be examined by a student ?
...
Don't you think it's a good reason to not do so ?
Don't think he meant have them take over the entire coding of the game. And I don't think that colleges inters are as stupid as you are making them seem. Do you think an inter on their last semester of college before graduating is any dumber than a person who got their degree a year ago, I wouldn't think its a noticeable difference. It's not like "Hey I'm out of school so that means I know everything."
Why does HTC not use and abuse (figuratively) programming students from the local colleges as interens or at minimum cheap labor to correct issues of current game play, help model new aircraft and vehicles, develope new maps, and otherwise have around for other coding issues??? Just curious.
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I've posted this question in another thread, but I figured I'd bring it to light out here in the open:
Why does HTC not use and abuse (figuratively) programming students from the local colleges as interens or at minimum cheap labor to correct issues of current game play, help model new aircraft and vehicles, develope new maps, and otherwise have around for other coding issues??? Just curious.
One would think that the developement of AH2 would be that much progressive if there were more hands on coding. I'm just saying. :)
Oh, and before anyone jumps on the "theft of data" concern, there are ways to stop *any* info from being uploaded or sent without the consent of the powers to be (HTC). While a concern, it would be minimal.
That would be like pouring my pint of Guinness at double the speed by adding some water. Yeah i get the pint faster but it tastes like urine.
S!
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That would be like pouring my pint of Guinness at double the speed by adding some water. Yeah i get the pint faster but it tastes like urine.
But so do all other UK beers :D
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That would be like pouring my pint of Guinness at double the speed by adding some water. Yeah i get the pint faster but it tastes like urine.
S!
Guinness ... is a patient pleasure ... never to be rushed !!!
I can't help but stare a a freshly poured pint and watch the bubbles go downward ... and then watch the barman "top it off" ... MINE !!!
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But so do all other UK beers :D
Guinness != UK ... a proper Irishman would slap you for saying that.
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right on slap :aok
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It is obvious you are not involved in software development. Your assumption that a entry level coder would speed up development when your coding staff consist of 2 people is greatly flawed.
2nd your assumption that a collage student could assist in flight modeling again is flawed, because flight modeling is not a bottle neck for us.
Artwork is something we have contracted in the past, and may in the furture.
HiTech
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Do you really want to drive a car designed by a student ?
Do you really want to check your bank account with a software designed by a student ?
Do you really want to go to ER and be examined by a student ?
...
Don't you think it's a good reason to not do so ?
That may be the best evidence I've yet to find that everyone should be forced to be an intern/low level worker (student or otherwise) at least once in their lives. It is a fundamentally flawed mind-set, and one coming from someone who has never been in such a position. Most larger offices are run (day to day tasks) by interns and low level staff. Senior folks are ultimately responsible for large decisionsand projects, but rarely execute the nitty gritty aspects of them.
This of course doesn't apply to HTC, since it is a small operation. Intern labor is not to be underestimated. You just have to be very selective with your interns, and treat them as you would any other employee. They will work just as well, and you can get away with paying them 1/3 as much. :aok
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Don't think he meant have them take over the entire coding of the game. And I don't think that colleges inters are as stupid as you are making them seem. Do you think an inter on their last semester of college before graduating is any dumber than a person who got their degree a year ago, I wouldn't think its a noticeable difference. It's not like "Hey I'm out of school so that means I know everything."
Yes they are and IMO, new grads are an irritating money drain for whatever company first takes them on. It takes a newly employed grad years to get over themselves and start making money for the company they are supposed to be working for.
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This of course doesn't apply to HTC, since it is a small operation.
Obviously it does and had you read the entire thread, before you posted, you would have known that.
Small companies with small staff have no time to be training new folks. One semi-trained individual could in effect cut down production by one third or more.
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Obviously it does and had you read the entire thread, before you posted, you would have known that.
Small companies with small staff have no time to be training new folks. One semi-trained individual could in effect cut down production by one third or more.
I did read the whole thread, and completely agree that interns would not be necessarily good for HTC. Hence, "This of course doesn't apply to HTC, since it is a small operation." My whole post was based on larger companies. (The ones who would generally be designing your car, playing with your bank account, or looking at medical scans)
You misreading my post =/= me not reading the thread.
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I did read the whole thread, and completely agree that interns would not be necessarily good for HTC. Hence, "This of course doesn't apply to HTC, since it is a small operation." My whole post was based on larger companies. (The ones who would generally be designing your car, playing with your bank account, or looking at medical scans)
You misreading my post =/= me not reading the thread.
More like misconstrued....
I got it now. :aok
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It is obvious you are not involved in software development. Your assumption that a entry level coder would speed up development when your coding staff consist of 2 people is greatly flawed.
2nd your assumption that a collage student could assist in flight modeling again is flawed, because flight modeling is not a bottle neck for us.
Artwork is something we have contracted in the past, and may in the furture.
HiTech
Well said :aok
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In software development, there are two things you need:
1. A generic understanding of software development processes and techniques.
2. An understanding of the problem domain.
Taking on an intern will get you someone partially skilled at (1) but almost certainly utterly hopeless at (2). In fairness, that would be true taking on a new full time employee as well, but with a full time employee you don't spend nine months getting them up to speed only for them to leave and head back to college.
Software development is not something you'll see much productivity improvement in by simply throwing bodies at the problem. Try reading 'The Mythical Man Month' for some great insights into the problem.
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I would still like to know why they can't fix a known bug . One they have been aware of for over a year . They won't even reply to an email about it . Is there such a thing as too small ? Just like too big ? IDK but it seems that being unable to reply to questions about it , indicates too small , or just I don't use it so I don't care .
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If you don't mind me asking....
What kind of business do you own and operate?
I owned and operated a large Allstate insurance agency in SD for 8 years (agency revenue of $200k+). I had 2-3 full time employees and about 6 mos out of the year I had another 2-3 student interns from the local university center helping with odd jobs around the office which included anything from lickin' stamps, to filing papers, to writing marketing letters, to ansering phones and perfoming policy changes (under the watchful eye of licensed personel). They not only brought their own ideas into the office, but they brought some of the more recent ideas from the their classes on office management, marketing, organization, etc, etc. Their "free" labor not just saved me lots of $$$ but more importantly to me it saved me time as I didnt have to spend any more time at the office. LOTS more got done.
To the person who spoke of student talent or ability in a questionable light... mind you that some of the best and most forward thinking ideas in history have come from those students who had yet to have been tainted by the "real world". ;)
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I would still like to know why they can't fix a known bug . One they have been aware of for over a year . They won't even reply to an email about it . Is there such a thing as too small ? Just like too big ? IDK but it seems that being unable to reply to questions about it , indicates too small , or just I don't use it so I don't care .
What is this bug you keep going on about?
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What is this bug you keep going on about?
mosquito's are getting pretty bad already where I live? :noid
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It is obvious you are not involved in software development. Your assumption that a entry level coder would speed up development when your coding staff consist of 2 people is greatly flawed.
2nd your assumption that a collage student could assist in flight modeling again is flawed, because flight modeling is not a bottle neck for us.
Artwork is something we have contracted in the past, and may in the furture.
HiTech
How right you are, I know nothing of software development. I speak not from coding experience, but from a small and well honed experience in owning a business. In your situation, adding 2-3 more people, ones that know coding, will not hurt in the production of new and the fixing of the old.
I find it hard to believe that HTC does not have a "bottleneck" of some sort when there are so many things that have been brought forth but yet so few things seem to be addressed, rectified, or added. AH2 has been around for how long and how many new thing have been added? it appears that there are so many things that would add *that* much more to the sim, but yet they have been ignored, omitted, or put on the back burner for .. ... .. other projects that have been denoted as more important. That means there are minor thingsm whatever they may be, that could be tinkered with by an intern. Oh, and I'd be very willing to bet there are many programming students that could match HTC's ability to code, program, etc.
With the following that AH2 has, one would be inclined to think that HTC would want to be a bit more agressive in releasing new material or improving wha already exists. Or, on the other hand one could go the complete opposite and say that even though AH2 is where it is at the following is still as large as it is. But from my point of view, why be happy with same-same and more same?
Is there anyone out there quick on the draw to say that AH2 could use *nothing* more?
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I'm not "looking" for anything more. I haven't learned what is there all ready and I have been playing for years. I'm also very happy with any update we get as they come more often than a boxed game, at a much cheaper price.
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I'm not "looking" for anything more. I haven't learned what is there all ready and I have been playing for years. I'm also very happy with any update we get as they come more often than a boxed game, at a much cheaper price.
Hmm... Take you monthly fee time the number of months you've been playing. Is it more than a boxed game? ;)
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Hmm... Take you monthly fee time the number of months you've been playing. Is it more than a boxed game? ;)
If I divide money paid by time actually played... no. :)
Just did a quick calculation. Counting MA time alone I paid 0.08€ for every hour I played AH. Scenarios, snapshots, KoTH, TA come on top of that and would even lower that rate.
A new boxed game would cost me 40€-50€. I would have to play it for at least 500 hours... I can't recall any game since "Elite" that had been that addicting ;)
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I've got a lot more hours into this than any boxed game I have ever played.
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How right you are, I know nothing of software development. I speak not from coding experience, but from a small and well honed experience in owning a business. In your situation, adding 2-3 more people, ones that know coding, will not hurt in the production of new and the fixing of the old.
I find it hard to believe that HTC does not have a "bottleneck" of some sort when there are so many things that have been brought forth but yet so few things seem to be addressed, rectified, or added. AH2 has been around for how long and how many new thing have been added? it appears that there are so many things that would add *that* much more to the sim, but yet they have been ignored, omitted, or put on the back burner for .. ... .. other projects that have been denoted as more important. That means there are minor thingsm whatever they may be, that could be tinkered with by an intern. Oh, and I'd be very willing to bet there are many programming students that could match HTC's ability to code, program, etc.
With the following that AH2 has, one would be inclined to think that HTC would want to be a bit more agressive in releasing new material or improving wha already exists. Or, on the other hand one could go the complete opposite and say that even though AH2 is where it is at the following is still as large as it is. But from my point of view, why be happy with same-same and more same?
Is there anyone out there quick on the draw to say that AH2 could use *nothing* more?
I know nothing of the coding business either. I do own a small 32000 sq ft fabrication and machine facility. I have 28 employees. I can tell you from experience in my field that kids out of school are not productive. In most cases they are counter productive because they draw one or more hands off their jobs to train them. While anyone from a senior metal tech to the guy sweeping the floors may have a great idea or suggestion, it is an extereme rarity for a greenhorn out of college to hit the ground running in this business.
I do not hire temps.
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Sir Hitech, you metion that you have contracted art work in the past...was just wondering if you would like to contact my x-wife....she was a real piece of ART!
<S> have a chuckle, and a great day...
999000
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That may be the best evidence I've yet to find that everyone should be forced to be an intern/low level worker (student or otherwise) at least once in their lives. It is a fundamentally flawed mind-set, and one coming from someone who has never been in such a position. Most larger offices are run (day to day tasks) by interns and low level staff. Senior folks are ultimately responsible for large decisionsand projects, but rarely execute the nitty gritty aspects of them.
This of course doesn't apply to HTC, since it is a small operation. Intern labor is not to be underestimated. You just have to be very selective with your interns, and treat them as you would any other employee. They will work just as well, and you can get away with paying them 1/3 as much. :aok
I'm working on a multi million € software for railways system when the team was at it's top we were about 70 and we had some intern (not anymore since we are in MRO now).
As a lead devellopper I can assure you it was a pain to work with intern,between their lack of knowledge of the inner working of the software, lack of knowledge of the way railway people work on the field and finnaly thier lack of experience my productivity was about 1/3 of what it should have been.
Guess what ... I've spent most of the past 2 years trying to be as productive as usual having my work and the interns work to do (a 4 people output to do alone :aok)
Since I successfully got ride of this "inexpensive help" my hierarchy as come to consider an experienced develloper as being 4 times more productive as in intern but 2 time less costly overall.
It's a question of scalabilty to make an analogy imagine a team of 4 people working on one engine at some time they will be working on the same area creating deadlock.
it's not like industrial production with 4 people working on an assembly line on 4 different engine
The final productivity output is not the same
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I'm working on a multi million € software for railways system when the team was at it's top we were about 70 and we had some intern (not anymore since we are in MRO now).
As a lead devellopper I can assure you it was a pain to work with intern,between their lack of knowledge of the inner working of the software, lack of knowledge of the way railway people work on the field and finnaly thier lack of experience my productivity was about 1/3 of what it should have been.
Guess what ... I've spent most of the past 2 years trying to be as productive as usual having my work and the interns work to do (a 4 people output to do alone :aok)
Since I successfully got ride of this "inexpensive help" my hierarchy as come to consider an experienced develloper as being 4 times more productive as in intern but 2 time less costly overall.
It's a question of scalabilty to make an analogy imagine a team of 4 people working on one engine at some time they will be working on the same area creating deadlock.
it's not like industrial production with 4 people working on an assembly line on 4 different engine
The final productivity output is not the same
Woaw, thanks for the insight. It was an eye-opener.
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Btw your previous post (as quoted below) is not completely wrong.
You would be surprised of the fresh ideas and outlooks students bring into an office filled with "veterants".
I like fresh idea ,it's the way to follow when working in IT.
Someone not questioning his skills, not trying improving his is skills or not trying to be up to date is IMO a bad IT specialist.
Preconception is something I fight in my team.
The drawbacks exposed by most newbies (in the IT field or elsewhere) is the lack or perception of the big picture or the associated economic cost.
Let me expose an anecdote I've witnessed on one of my previous project (and previous company too :p).
We had an intern (having a master or degree of some sort in optimisation) his assigned task was to identify bottlenecks and so make some propositions of optimisation on the software.
Because of the lack of organisation his work was not really monitored and he had no real lead to follow.
So he started working alone at his desk and 3 months later he presented the result of his hard work : he had successfully optimised some parts of the software increasing performance by a whooping 3000% on some parts as purify and profiler log showed.
But we trashed his work for lot of reasons :
- maintainability was pretty low (lack of pertinent comments,tricky naming and the general architecture was pretty sub standard)
- but the main reason was : he missed the big picture.
The software was used to control a big machine tool needing a minimal incompressible hardware initialisation of about 3 minutes (for pneumatics and hydraulics) using his optimized software the initiation (for the software part) took about 20 sec a lot less than the 1 minute needed previously (by a fool prof and proved system).
So instead of having the software being idle during 2 minutes the gain was to have it idle 40 seconds more :D
I've still this anecdote in my mind when I'm doing resource management.
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How right you are, I know nothing of software development. I speak not from coding experience, but from a small and well honed experience in owning a business. In your situation, adding 2-3 more people, ones that know coding, will not hurt in the production of new and the fixing of the old.
I find it hard to believe that HTC does not have a "bottleneck" of some sort when there are so many things that have been brought forth but yet so few things seem to be addressed, rectified, or added. AH2 has been around for how long and how many new thing have been added? it appears that there are so many things that would add *that* much more to the sim, but yet they have been ignored, omitted, or put on the back burner for .. ... .. other projects that have been denoted as more important. That means there are minor thingsm whatever they may be, that could be tinkered with by an intern. Oh, and I'd be very willing to bet there are many programming students that could match HTC's ability to code, program, etc.
With the following that AH2 has, one would be inclined to think that HTC would want to be a bit more agressive in releasing new material or improving wha already exists. Or, on the other hand one could go the complete opposite and say that even though AH2 is where it is at the following is still as large as it is. But from my point of view, why be happy with same-same and more same?
Is there anyone out there quick on the draw to say that AH2 could use *nothing* more?
This has to be one of the most arrogant post I have ever seen.
Your first line.
How right you are, I know nothing of software development.
Said it all, it is equivalent to you staying in a Holiday Inn express last night ,and then tell a brain surgery you know more than he about his craft. And then disagree how he does things.
You did not even take the time to read and understand my post.
I find it hard to believe that HTC does not have a "bottleneck" of some sort
This was not stated in the least, it was stated in regards you your asking about using and intern with flight modeling.
It is again blatantly obvious you have never worked in a creative or engineering environment.
1st I have been programming for 35 years. I have worked in many coding environment from large to small. Your business is simply a process. Sell, fill form, perform claims ....
Your cost structure ,I would assume, is mostly in the process. I.E. if you wish to grow, it will require more people to perform the process. This is 100% opposite from development where your cost structure occurs from creating and implementing Ideas, and the process cost is almost negligible.
Development and engineering are not a simple process that can be broken into pieces. And as the classic fault listed in the mythical man month , 9 women can not make a baby in a month.
As an example in our current terrain rewrite, I have re written it many times. It is the nature of new development. You can not see all the out comes of such a complex problem until you start implementing it.
With a piece of software on the scale of AH, just learning the lay of the land is huge. The types of software an intern could write, would take longer to document and explain , then simply to have Stewart or I write.
And entry level coder has a basic knowledge of the tools at hand to create programs. He has basic knowledge of some algorithms. He has almost zero knowledge of the pro's and cons of different approaches as they apply to any specific system he would be working on.
HiTech
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I've posted this question in another thread, but I figured I'd bring it to light out here in the open:
Why does HTC not use and abuse (figuratively) programming students from the local colleges as interens or at minimum cheap labor to correct issues of current game play, help model new aircraft and vehicles, develope new maps, and otherwise have around for other coding issues??? Just curious.
One would think that the developement of AH2 would be that much progressive if there were more hands on coding. I'm just saying. :)
Oh, and before anyone jumps on the "theft of data" concern, there are ways to stop *any* info from being uploaded or sent without the consent of the powers to be (HTC). While a concern, it would be minimal.
:O :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
I think AH2 is writen in an older version of Microsoft Excel and the new students are not familiar with it. Maybe they could get some old COBOL programmers instead?
:D
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As a lead developer I can assure you it was a pain to work with intern,between their lack of knowledge of the inner working of the software, lack of knowledge of the way railway people work on the field and finnaly thier lack of experience my productivity was about 1/3 of what it should have been.
Well if that is your experience with interns Straffo, then I don't blame you for thinking as you do. Perceptions are based on experience, after all. In my experience, I have seen interns out-produce and even out-think (strategically) higher level staff, who simply have a different approach. Don't get me wrong, there are certainly your waste-of-oxygen ones out there...but you can say that about any position. Again, just my experience in the matter.
Don't categorically dismiss them just because you had a couple duds...that's all I'm trying to get at.
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Hey HiTech,
I can think of an intern we can use - a fledgling actress. She could visit my office, "accidentally" press herself up against my back, and tell me how awesome I code. She could admire the way I cut and paste and the way I select auto-filled variables with unbridled confidence. She could tut-tut over the way I abuse my eyes staring into my "huge" monitor. She could giggle and clap her hands delightedly each time I announce a bug squashed. Now that would increase productivity! :)
PS better make it a good actress.
Seriously, though, I've had interns in other jobs and I spent almost all my time training, helping, and reigning in. Besides, it's not as if we have a shortage of people wanting to give us fresh ideas.
One last thing: on the initial post, why did you think we didn't have any interns?
- Sudz
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Hey HiTech,
I can think of an intern we can use - a fledgling actress. She could visit my office, "accidentally" press herself up against my back, and tell me how awesome I code. And that is the reason I will only accept male intern's.... Don't want to get into the dangerous area of SH & HR.......
Seriously, though, I've had interns in other jobs and I spent almost all my time training, helping, and reigning in. Besides, it's not as if we have a shortage of people wanting to give us fresh ideas. You are so correct on that one... I get an intern for the summer, and it's mid July before they can actually function.
- Sudz
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One thing that hasn't been hashed out here about using interns, the cost. If you've been to HiTech's office you'll immediately notice there is not available room to put them up. (you could put them in with Roy but they may never be found again!). The first cost is office space to put them up, since there isn't any space where they are you now you have to move the whole operation to larger quarters and pay for the additional floor space, then the operating expenses in power, telephone and computers. How many interns? They year around help or just temp? Ya know, I just don't think we can afford that kind of low cost help in Grapevine :cool:
If you really want to see how the operation is run, make the time to come to the convention in October and sit down and talk with the Hitech crew, they all show up during the weekend. You may even accidently have a good time and I can set up tours of the offices <eg>
SB
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Intern's work between 3 and 5 months usually, based on the length of a college semester............ The bigger problem is experience. 2 types of internships, paid and for credit. The younger, less experienced people will get the credits, but the upperclass people will try for a paid internship. The big issue, as ~sudz~ points out, is by the time they are up to speed, the professor is doing a final onsite visit.
How many interns? They year around help or just temp?
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Oh, and I'd be very willing to bet there are many programming students that could match HTC's ability to code, program, etc.
That is laughable at best ... there are many talented kids coming out of college, but none could hold a candle to Sudz and more so HiTech.
I am a Senior Software Architect (business software) and have been involved in the hiring process for our group. We hired 5 real qualified (or what appeared to be qualified) students that had just graduated from some pretty reputable Colleges.
Long story short ... they no longer work for us except 2. We paid the price to try and bring them up to speed (over a 1 yr time period) and they failed miserably. All the time that I spent (and other senior developers) to try and make them productive in our group was nothing but a waste of time ... and we pretty much had to do their job and ours to make things work.
I was mentoring a young man from Rutgers ... BS in Compute Science ... look at one of my programs and ask a question about a line similar to this ...
int RC = isFlightFirstClass(expenseData);
if(RC!=0)
{
error();
}
The question was ... "What does RC mean ?" ... I knew I was in trouble at that point.
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I took a BASIC class in the 7th grade, I bet I could help out!
-Sik
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That is laughable at best ... there are many talented kids coming out of college, but none could hold a candle to Sudz and more so HiTech.
I am a Senior Software Architect (business software) and have been involved in the hiring process for our group. We hired 5 real qualified (or what appeared to be qualified) students that had just graduated from some pretty reputable Colleges.
Long story short ... they no longer work for us except 2. We paid the price to try and bring them up to speed (over a 1 yr time period) and they failed miserably. All the time that I spent (and other senior developers) to try and make them productive in our group was nothing but a waste of time ... and we pretty much had to do their job and ours to make things work.
I was mentoring a young man from Rutgers ... BS in Compute Science ... look at one of my programs and ask a question about a line similar to this ...
int RC = isFlightFirstClass(expenseData);
if(RC!=0)
{
error();
}
The question was ... "What does RC mean ?" ... I knew I was in trouble at that point.
I haven't programmed since middle school, RC is just a defined integer variable with a parameter right? It could be named anything.
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RC an integer ?
nahhh Slapshot is just another soccer mum :)
http://www.rclens.fr/
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That is laughable at best ... there are many talented kids coming out of college, but none could hold a candle to Sudz and more so HiTech.
I am a Senior Software Architect (business software) and have been involved in the hiring process for our group. We hired 5 real qualified (or what appeared to be qualified) students that had just graduated from some pretty reputable Colleges.
Long story short ... they no longer work for us except 2. We paid the price to try and bring them up to speed (over a 1 yr time period) and they failed miserably. All the time that I spent (and other senior developers) to try and make them productive in our group was nothing but a waste of time ... and we pretty much had to do their job and ours to make things work.
I was mentoring a young man from Rutgers ... BS in Compute Science ... look at one of my programs and ask a question about a line similar to this ...
int RC = isFlightFirstClass(expenseData);
if(RC!=0)
{
error();
}
The question was ... "What does RC mean ?" ... I knew I was in trouble at that point.
I've never done computer code before.
But is RC equal to the expense Data for (a) First Class Flight?
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This has to be one of the most arrogant post I have ever seen.
Your first line.
Said it all, it is equivalent to you staying in a Holiday Inn express last night ,and then tell a brain surgery you know more than he about his craft. And then disagree how he does things.
No, not arrogance at all. Just in search of answers and I'm not one to simply drink the cool-aid like many others (and I'm certainly not an brown noser, either). Not in one sentence did I ever tell HTC how to do its job.
You did not even take the time to read and understand my post.
yes, I read and re-read it. You didnt answer the questions. Below is when you DID answer them and basically it boils down do the lack of experience in the field of programming.
This was not stated in the least, it was stated in regards you your asking about using and intern with flight modeling.
So... a programming intern, one that is knowledgable in coding with your software or other such black magic, would be of no help at all anywhere for AH2?
It is again blatantly obvious you have never worked in a creative or engineering environment.
I said that, no need to be "blatant" with your reply.
1st I have been programming for 35 years. I have worked in many coding environment from large to small. Your business is simply a process. Sell, fill form, perform claims ....
Your cost structure ,I would assume, is mostly in the process. I.E. if you wish to grow, it will require more people to perform the process. This is 100% opposite from development where your cost structure occurs from creating and implementing Ideas, and the process cost is almost negligible.
So... it cost nothing to implement new idea in the form of funds... but what about time?
Development and engineering are not a simple process that can be broken into pieces. And as the classic fault listed in the mythical man month , 9 women can not make a baby in a month.
As an example in our current terrain rewrite, I have re written it many times. It is the nature of new development. You can not see all the out comes of such a complex problem until you start implementing it.
Right. Point taken again. Hence, all the "beta" releases we see in boxed games and the current test release of the new terrain(s).
With a piece of software on the scale of AH, just learning the lay of the land is huge. The types of software an intern could write, would take longer to document and explain , then simply to have Stewart or I write.
Understood. Again, that is where the experience and efficiency part comes into play and that part I know and understand very well. However, I'm still having a hard time digesting that there isnt something a new yet knowledgable coder could help with.
And entry level coder has a basic knowledge of the tools at hand to create programs. He has basic knowledge of some algorithms. He has almost zero knowledge of the pro's and cons of different approaches as they apply to any specific system he would be working on.
HiTech
You jumped the gun a bit when you refered to my post as "arrogant", I will always yield in areas I know nothing of, but when a question is asked an answes are given to a question that had not been asked... I'll ask my question again or find a way to re-phrase it so it is undersstood. You post above is how you should have responded in your first post. ;)
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RC mean Return Code
if not equal to zero there was a "ooops" in the isFlightFirstClass function
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Whether or not interns are useful depends on your business and the task.
If there is a lot of knowledge needed that they don't have, they are a drain. They will use up more resources getting trained and getting up to speed than they will be able to contribute. This has been my experience where I work, in our departments of software development, engineering, biology and chemistry, and production. The tasks have too much project-specific knowledge required.
If they already have the knowledge and can complete the task, then it can be useful. This has worked out in our legal department once, for example, but only because we had a well-defined task that a law student could do and had one available (so that we didn't have to screen a bunch of them, which takes time). It might be useful in a marketing or sales department where you want someone to do a fairly simple task that doesn't take a lot of explaining (like a web search for competing products or looking up contact info on all companies that meet a specific set of criteria) or general office work if the task doesn't need much training. Still, you have to figure in the time to locate and screen applicants.
So, it depends, but usually software development is not a place where an intern will save you money -- at least not in my experience. Even things that volunteers do in AH (CM'ing, making terrains, making skins, for example) are things that an intern would not be able to do.
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So... a programming intern, one that is knowledgable in coding with your software or other such black magic, would be of no help at all anywhere for AH2?
The only good use for an intern that I've found was to get coffee for me and the project team(s) I manage. Our dev team also had a couple of interns but they were let go after 3 weeks when it dawned on one of the producers that they were spending more time in teaching the interns on how to use the 3D modeling software that we use for our games. The only interns we hire now at my company are for the sales/marketing and accounting departments, you won't see an intern in our customer service, operations or development departments. I know that I will not hire an intern after my last experience.
ack-ack
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PS better make it a good actress.
Sudz...
She would HAVE to be a good actress!!!! :devil
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How right you are, I know nothing of software development. I speak not from coding experience, but from a small and well honed experience in owning a business. In your situation, adding 2-3 more people, ones that know coding, will not hurt in the production of new and the fixing of the old.
No, not arrogance at all. Just in search of answers and I'm not one to simply drink the cool-aid like many others (and I'm certainly not an brown noser, either). Not in one sentence did I ever tell HTC how to do its job.
I do not know what language you use, but the above is not a question, it is not a search for answers, it is a direct statement telling men how to run my production, even drawing conclusions of what will and will not hurt production.
You post above is how you should have responded in your first post.
And once again you tell me how to do my job.
HiTech
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Well I say HTC crew needs no one to help, those dweebs would never be able to explain their crazy ideas to someone new!
But really, you all do a great job with a small crew. :)
:salute
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Hmm on the other hand they can have the intern store the bottles of scotch from SAPP.
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Hmm on the other hand they can have the intern store the bottles of scotch from SAPP.
Why did I not think of that.
HiTech
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I do not know what language you use, but the above is not a question, it is not a search for answers, it is a direct statement telling men how to run my production, even drawing conclusions of what will and will not hurt production.
And once again you tell me how to do my job.
HiTech
You read too deep into what you describe as me telling you how to run your operation. Obviously, much is being interpreted in a manner differently than intended and I'll admit to perhaps writing too quick of a statement (adding 2-3 more people who know what they're doing cant hurt in supplimenting, etc) without double checking just what I had written.
Secondly... I hit the nail on the head. You're second post should have been your first post. Case closed, yes? If one were to go back and look at the replies you have made in other threads in which debates have unfolded regarding HTC, your replies are usually just what I said in my previous post: an answer to a question no one asked AND it usualy doesnt answer the issue at hand (and with a heavy bit of stoic-ness as well). Just stop and read the differences between your first and second post in this thread and I dare say that your first post was quite void of anything condusive and your second post was far more clear, concise, and cogent. Which one explains your position and which doesnt??? Be crass with your replies all you want, but at least try for the "three C's". Just a suggestion. [no, I didnt tell you how to do your job, an observation was made and a suggestion was brought forth]
EDIT: grammar and spelling
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Crass :lol
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Im guessing smokin is not going to be at the convention this year...
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At some point.....someone should have simply said..."it's time to stop typing". :devil
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At some point.....someone should have simply said..."it's time to stop typing". :devil
oh oh oh i did i did i did !!!!!!
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And as the classic fault listed in the mythical man month , 9 women can not make a baby in a month.
<hijack>
I'd like to volunteer to have 'relations' with these 9 women in an attempt to prove your hypothesis wrong. I know I am sacrificing my body to science, but I am steadfast in my desire to help the scientific/coding community.
</hijack>
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<hijack>
I'd like to volunteer to have 'relations' with these 9 women in an attempt to prove your hypothesis wrong. I know I am sacrificing my body to science, but I am steadfast in my desire to help the scientific/coding community.
</hijack>
Deli...
Please, let us know how that works out for you. :)
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Developer Interns would be far superior then the HTC staff at one thing....................... Making photo copies. HiTech, you guys make a lot of photo copies?
Oh yeah, and I once had an intern that made better coffee then I did. But that once only once. He got promoted to coffeemaker.... Instead of copymaker.
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RC mean Return Code
if not equal to zero there was a "ooops" in the isFlightFirstClass function
Bingo !!! ... RC is iconic in the world of programming. It simply is an acronym for Return Code. It is something that is typically taught in Programming -101 and when a grad with a BS in Computer Science asks what "RC" means ... it's a sign.
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Sudz...
She would HAVE to be a good actress!!!! :devil
Ouch ... that's gonna leave a mark !
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Hmm on the other hand they can have the intern store the bottles of scotch from SAPP.
You would give college students the job of "storing" booze? Are you crazy?!
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The man makes a valid point!!!!
You would give college students the job of "storing" booze? Are you crazy?!
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You would give college students the job of "storing" booze? Are you crazy?!
As long as there are no instructions on the bottle as to how to open it. I see no problem.
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As long as there are no instructions on the bottle as to how to open it. I see no problem.
This is a valid point also. :D
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But not as valid.... Lest we forget John Belushi in Animal House..... He never took the top off, simply smashed the bottle high up and drank the rest.
This is a valid point also. :D
HTC would then sink into debt and need a bailout because the booze is because a "red expense."
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Not much expense. The scotch is from SAPP. The intern can be paid as a bartender or server (less than minimum wage) and work for tips.
First "tip" ...... don't drop the bottles.
I can picture a back room at Hitech with a pool table and a bar..... ummm opps I mean an enlarged back room with more pool tables and maybe another bar.
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But is that the good stuff? Get some Blue Label and I'll bartend myself.......for free!!! :rock
Not much expense. The scotch is from SAPP.
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SlapShot: I once hired a programmer who claimed to want to do optimization in assembler. I knew I was in trouble when I saw he was a slow 2 finger typer.
I once hired a color blind artist. He actually did good work.
HiTech
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hitech,
With ut most respect possible for the work you guys do Id like to ask you a question. Why does it take so long to fix apparently simple bugs? (I realize that some arent so simple and its not so easy.) It seems to me fixing a gauge or damage bug shouldnt be too difficult. Or the things like the CoG issue with the mossi and Me-163's incorrect fuel burn rate?
<S>
Strip
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Burn rate for the 163 is just fine...... 7 minutes. In game, we have a throttle control for it..... Is that what you want fixed? Make it like it was? 7 minutes of fixed thrust to get to 45k and then glide to your target?
Also....... Bugs........
Think about this one..... Microsoft has a few more developers then HTC does. Agreed? Office 2007 comes out and not until 2 months ago did they make docx, pptx, exlx files backwards compatible with old versions of office. It's all the same code isn't it? Code fixes are sometimes so obscure, that it takes a while. Not that that statement gives Microsoft an excuses..... Those punks.
hitech,
With ut most respect possible for the work you guys do Id like to ask you a question. Why does it take so long to fix apparently simple bugs? (I realize that some arent so simple and its not so easy.) It seems to me fixing a gauge or damage bug shouldnt be too difficult. Or the things like the CoG issue with the mossi and Me-163's incorrect fuel burn rate?
<S>
Strip
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hitech,
Or the things like the CoG issue with the mossi
Please, for the love of god, leave the mossie alone.
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Burn rate for the 163 is just fine...... 7 minutes. In game, we have a throttle control for it..... Is that what you want fixed? Make it like it was? 7 minutes of fixed thrust to get to 45k and then glide to your target?
The Me-163 fuel burn rate decreases as speed increases which for a rocket engine is impossible.
Edit: You facts are incorrect also.....in real life the Me-163 was throttlable and restartable.
You cant compare HTC to Microsoft any more than you can compare Office 2007 to Aces High. HTC doesnt want to be compared to Microcrap on most subjects either.
Strip
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AH HA..... You are right sir, my bad. (163)
However.... This one is not a comparison.... In fact it's so not a comparison between MS & HTC that I will not even address it. Maybe read what I said again (about bugs in the code) a little slower.
The Me-163 fuel burn rate decreases as speed increases which for a rocket engine is impossible.
Otherwise you cant compare HTC to Microsoft any more than you can compare Office 2007 to Aces High. HTC doesnt want to be compared to Microcrap on most subjects either.
Strip
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I read it fine...
Microsoft is motivated by greed....Aces High is motivated to be the best. (I hope....)
Strip
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That is true.... 150%.
But you're the only boob comparing two companies. I simply made a bug comparison.
Wait Skuzzy, I'll do it......... "See Rule 4"
Sorry.
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Sigh....
You bring a coding issue up masked as a bug issue. Microsoft willingly made the files not backwards compatable. HTC more than likely did not know about some of these bugs.
Hardly the same in any form (bug or company) in my book....oversight vs malice.
Strip
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Well if that is your experience with interns Straffo, then I don't blame you for thinking as you do. Perceptions are based on experience, after all. In my experience, I have seen interns out-produce and even out-think (strategically) higher level staff, who simply have a different approach. Don't get me wrong, there are certainly your waste-of-oxygen ones out there...but you can say that about any position. Again, just my experience in the matter.
Don't categorically dismiss them just because you had a couple duds...that's all I'm trying to get at.
Maybe in a different field. We hire full time programmers that we will not let do anything important for months until they are familiar with our systems and infrastructure. These are guys we recruit from the best colleges after months of interviewing. Are they 100 times smarter than me? Probably yes. But until they have the experience to go with it they are just dangerous
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With ut most respect possible for the work you guys do Id like to ask you a question. Why does it take so long to fix apparently simple bugs? (I realize that some arent so simple and its not so easy.) It seems to me fixing a gauge or damage bug shouldnt be too difficult. Or the things like the CoG issue with the mossi and Me-163's incorrect fuel burn rate?
First what many people post are bugs are not.
2nd what you may think is an easy fix may or may not be, it could be a simple change to a model, but it can also be a systemic problem in which case it can be a huge thing to fix.
3rd on every release we go threw every bug reported in the bug forum and address them. If they are a straight forward fix we address them.
If they are not a straight forward fix, but important we fix them.
Once we are finished with a release cycle, I.E. all patches released, many times we freeze the code because things become incompatable once major surgery begins, so it is almost impossible to do bug fixes until the new version is ready.
Your example with the 163 was not a simple fix, and 2 it really has very little impact on things. ( if my memory is correct, pyro and I did fix this one for the next release) The mossie falls under that same category of not a simple fix, and in the overall sceam of game play , is not very important.
HiTech
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On the flip side M$ has a lot more code in windows and other software. Percentage wise they may be closer than you think. The last perfect man has not walked this earth in some time.
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First what many people post are bugs are not.
2nd what you may think is an easy fix may or may not be, it could be a simple change to a model, but it can also be a systemic problem in which case it can be a huge thing to fix.
3rd on every release we go threw every bug reported in the bug forum and address them. If they are a straight forward fix we address them.
If they are not a straight forward fix, but important we fix them.
Once we are finished with a release cycle, I.E. all patches released, many times we freeze the code because things become incompatable once major surgery begins, so it is almost impossible to do bug fixes until the new version is ready.
Your example with the 163 was not a simple fix, and 2 it really has very little impact on things. ( if my memory is correct, pyro and I did fix this one for the next release) The mossie falls under that same category of not a simple fix, and in the overall sceam of game play , is not very important.
HiTech
Thanks for the reply....
<S> Strip
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The last perfect man has not walked this earth in some time.
I walked this morning.....does that not count? :devil
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Give me lip but thank him for saying the same thing? Good Job.
Thanks for the reply....
<S> Strip
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Your example with the 163 was not a simple fix, and 2 it really has very little impact on things. ( if my memory is correct, pyro and I did fix this one for the next release)
HiTech
YES!!!!! ITS AN UPDATE FROM THE NEXT PATCH!!!!!!!!! :rock lol
On a serious note, keep up the great work HTC. Best game to play pretend luftweenie :lol
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SlapShot: I once hired a programmer who claimed to want to do optimization in assembler. I knew I was in trouble when I saw he was a slow 2 finger typer.
I once hired a color blind artist. He actually did good work.
HiTech
:rofl
Assembler ... you should have asked him to code it up on "coding sheets" first ... then if he asked "what are coding sheets ?" ... ya reach out and slap him.
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My 2 cents to HT's last reply:
Sometimes when you fix one thing, you end up breaking three other things, which can sometimes have a snowball effect. It is a rare occurance, but this is just another example of how something that seems easy to fix, in reality, can turn out to be very difficult.
Sometimes you have to nuke all your previous days or months worth of work, because it was a dead end. That really sucks when it happens! Thankfully, such cases a rare, and you learn a lot from your mistakes.
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Sometimes you have to nuke all your previous days or months worth of work, because it was a dead end. That really sucks when it happens! Thankfully, such cases a rare, and you learn a lot from your mistakes.
Like not letting Sudz order carpaccio? That kind of learning :devil
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<--- Loves carpaccio
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<--- Loves carpaccio
looks good, but I don't know if it is better than cannibal sandwiches
http://www.onmilwaukee.com/dining/articles/yumyuck.html
(bottom of the article, I can't find a better reference)
It is delicious, and only a few butchers in Milw will sell it to you. the beef has to be prepared a certain way, and the salt and pepper mixed in shortly before sale / use.
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looks good, but I don't know if it is better than cannibal sandwiches
http://www.onmilwaukee.com/dining/articles/yumyuck.html
(bottom of the article, I can't find a better reference)
It is delicious, and only a few butchers in Milw will sell it to you. the beef has to be prepared a certain way, and the salt and pepper mixed in shortly before sale / use.
Has ecoli written all over it. I was in the meat business for 20 years...... that is highly dangerous.
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I just poked my head in. Good thread. :rofl
Eitherway, best game by far Ive ever played. :aok Im 41 so been around gaming since pong.
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My 2 cents to HT's last reply:
Sometimes when you fix one thing, you end up breaking three other things, which can sometimes have a snowball effect. It is a rare occurance, but this is just another example of how something that seems easy to fix, in reality, can turn out to be very difficult.
Sometimes you have to nuke all your previous days or months worth of work, because it was a dead end. That really sucks when it happens! Thankfully, such cases a rare, and you learn a lot from your mistakes.
He used the "n" word - the B-29 is on it's way!