Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Krusty on June 16, 2009, 11:09:58 PM
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It occured to me.... I may have a way to game with 2 monitors. Until now it's been too much pain and trouble to cope with the picture being split JUST where you are supposed to focus your attention (crosshairs get split by end of one monitor and beginning of another monitor).
Well, much like the 109 armored glass, I wonder if you could get a refractive piece of plexiglass or something, put it on one monitor so that it "skews" the picture towards the border/gap between monitors. Get another for the other monitor, and skew/refract that image as well, and if you position the monitors properly, the edge of the two pieces of glass should make it look like the pixels are seamlessly touching each other.
I threw together a picture, to say a thousand words:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/71sqn/monitor_refraction_idea.jpg)
The light would be bent to eliminate the apparent gap of pixels where the monitor frames are.
Of course, I have no idea what material you'd have to use, how heavy it is, how expensive, etc...
I was kind of annoyed that you can't play games with 2 monitors. You have to use 1 or 3, because your crosshairs, aiming point, of point of general focus must be uninterrupted (meaning a center monitor, +2 wings, or just a center monitor). This might be one way around it.
Thoughts?
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Sounds like it might be easier just to get three monitors, but at the same time I would love to see how this would turn out.
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Better yet, use the 3 monitors but use the idea Krusty put forward to remove the braces around the edge of each monitor.
Imagine, a seamless view!
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It seems as though it should work but I wouldn't know how to accomplish it.
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1) agreed, easier to use 3, but monitors (gaming quality) get expensive! Plus if you only have 1 vid card and 2 video ports?
2) I thought of that! But it might be harder to accomplish... you'd have to spread the center monitor out left and right to meet the other prisms... might be tricker to get the light bending the way you need it to.
3) Agreed!!! I doubt I'll be the one to test it, but it is intriguing!
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It definitely seems plausible.
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This might be possible with fresnel lenses for your monitors, Krusty.
I've never used them, but I believe that they come in typical screen sizes, though they aren't easily found for larger screens. The drawbacks I've heard about are that the fresnel lenses may hamper your resolution a bit, though, as they are usually made of plastic, and stand away from your actual screen a few inches. Also, I've heard that they tend to add some cylindrical distortion at the outer edges of the monitors.
That said, I've seen Youtube videos of guys who have used them on 3-monitor setups to create a seamless display for racing games.
Doable, but as the OP recommended, I'd suggest that you go for three screens. Even if the fresnel lenses don't work out, it's easier to get used to the bevels of the extra monitors being outside your focal point, rather than occluding it with the bevel area of two monitors. In addition, the cost of two fresnel lenses is similar to that of one decent-sized monitor, so a third monitor may be a better investment. Your call, of course.
FWIW,
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Get a semi-transparent mirror and you can turn your two displays to one 3D that works without shutter glasses..
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Your idea would sort of work, but not like your drawing implies. Snell's law of refraction will show you that if the incoming light beam is perpendicular to the glass it will enter the glass perpendicular and exit perpendicular with no change of angle and no offset, i.e. your green lines would be straight not kinked. Light only gets refracted if it enters a surface off axis from perpendicular and Snell's law will tell you how much the angle is reduced in the higher refractive index medium (i.e. the glass).
However, that's moot as the light beams you drew, i.e. the ones coming perpendicular off the LCD, are not the ones your eye would see. Since the LCDs have to be at a slight angle, the light you'd see is the offaxis beam. This beam from the LCD, which would be vertical in your drawing, would enter the glass plate and be refracted slightly to the right from the left display and to the left for the right display. When they exited the glass plates they would straighten out back to vertical in your drawing, but be closer together. With the proper thickness of glass and the proper angle between the two LCD displays (both being dependent on the glass index of refraction) you could get a continuous image without the center frame.
If the glass is not AR coated (antireflection) you're going to get annoying ghost images.
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Fresnels definitely have round distortions. I believe that's how they were intended to display.
715: I realize it's not about the light from the monitor, but the light to the eye, and all that. That was just 3 minutes' worth of time in Photoshop to get the idea across :D
Ripley, can you elaborate? I'm afraid I don't know what you mean with the transparent mirror.
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Fresnels definitely have round distortions. I believe that's how they were intended to display.
715: I realize it's not about the light from the monitor, but the light to the eye, and all that. That was just 3 minutes' worth of time in Photoshop to get the idea across :D
Ripley, can you elaborate? I'm afraid I don't know what you mean with the transparent mirror.
It means a mirror that lets 50% of visible light through. If you place two tft's at 90 degree angle and then a semi-transparent mirror at 45 angle between them, you will see 50% of the other monitors image and 50% of the other monitor. Then all you need is glasses with mixed polarization and your left eye will only see the other monitor and the right the other - bingo you just made a 3D monitor.
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It means a mirror that lets 50% of visible light through. If you place two tft's at 90 degree angle and then a semi-transparent mirror at 45 angle between them, you will see 50% of the other monitors image and 50% of the other monitor. Then all you need is glasses with mixed polarization and your left eye will only see the other monitor and the right the other - bingo you just made a 3D monitor.
The image would be distorted heavily being angled like that and wouldnt really be a true 3d monitor either.
Strip
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The image would be distorted heavily being angled like that and wouldnt really be a true 3d monitor either.
Strip
Lol please don't comment about things you obviously know nothing about.
Do some reading instead http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=32547&st=40
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In order to have a 3D effect it can't be the same image on both monitors though, they'd need to have seperate viewpoints. Do the drivers and AH2 support that?
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Why not just take the casings off the monitors and stick them together? I've only taken apart two LCDs in my day, and there wasn't anything in the sides of the casing. I'm sure there's some a way to do it, and then you don't have any optical issues.
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In order to have a 3D effect it can't be the same image on both monitors though, they'd need to have seperate viewpoints. Do the drivers and AH2 support that?
Nvidia 3D drivers give a native stereo support for nvidia cards meaning AH2 works as well as any 3D application. Ati users are out of luck though.
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I just read some of the links... looks pretty cool. Fortunately I don't have a true 120 Hz monitor or I'd be seriously tempted by those Nvidia 3d glasses.
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Trying to build that giant, clunky, dangerously top-heavy rig, just to try to replicate a hologram, IMO isn't an ideal gaming setup.
Not to mention I've never been a fan of "3D" because all you ever see is 2D, regardless of how those 2D pixels are seen by the eye. Meaning the game doesn't code in depth perception, focal blurring, different levels of focus, so nothing any nvidia drivers do can really make it "3D" -- it's just another form of 2D in my opinion.
As for opening up LCD frames, I don't want to 1) risk destroying the monitors themselves, 2) run into problems where there are wires/etc on the side of the frame (for example both monitors I have now have a power button sticking well past the edge of the LCD area, so I would lose the option of turning my monitors on or off if I wanted to), plus if I did anything wrong I could not reverse the issue (I'd be out many hundreds of $$ and no monitors).
My idea was... I guess.... more of an add-on than a total makeover. Meant not to damage the existing gear. I guess I'm conservative that way.
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Who knew that Krusty of all people was a closet genius? :D
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Nvidia 3D drivers give a native stereo support for nvidia cards meaning AH2 works as well as any 3D application. Ati users are out of luck though.
IZ3D do 3D drivers for ATI.
And boilerdown I play AH exclusively in Stereo 3D. It rocks.
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Not to mention I've never been a fan of "3D" because all you ever see is 2D, regardless of how those 2D pixels are seen by the eye. Meaning the game doesn't code in depth perception, focal blurring, different levels of focus, so nothing any nvidia drivers do can really make it "3D" -- it's just another form of 2D in my opinion.
Bollocks. Depth perception is a combination of many things including stereoscopic vision. The other stuff is visual clues such as texture regression, vanishing points etc. Focal blurring and focus are not functions of stereoscopic vision, they are eye functions. AH looks great in 3D and you can achieve so much more with a far more immersive experience. Going to non-stereo3d is like going from a colour tv to a black and white.
Let me ask you, what 3D devices have you tried AH with?
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Can you describe what 3D gives to AH? If you're flying isn't everything so far away that there is no depth to it? Does a target at 400 yds really give you any depth cues?
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I just read some of the links... looks pretty cool. Fortunately I don't have a true 120 Hz monitor or I'd be seriously tempted by those Nvidia 3d glasses.
The planar mirror setup doesn't require anything but regular monitors because the glasses used are polarized glasses meaning they do not flicker like shutter glasses.
It's like watching one regular monitor except your other eye sees only the image from the other monitor and vice versa. The nvidia 3D solution you're referring to works only with one monitor and that has to work at double refresh rate to be able to give both eyes the 60hz refresh. The planar stereomirror setup is MUCH more pleasant to watch as there is zero flickering just like watching a regular LCD monitor. The glasses needed cost 6 bucks - not exactly an investment. They don't even need a battery or a cable since it's just like sunglasses with reverse polarization.
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Trying to build that giant, clunky, dangerously top-heavy rig, just to try to replicate a hologram, IMO isn't an ideal gaming setup.
Not to mention I've never been a fan of "3D" because all you ever see is 2D, regardless of how those 2D pixels are seen by the eye. Meaning the game doesn't code in depth perception, focal blurring, different levels of focus, so nothing any nvidia drivers do can really make it "3D" -- it's just another form of 2D in my opinion.
As for opening up LCD frames, I don't want to 1) risk destroying the monitors themselves, 2) run into problems where there are wires/etc on the side of the frame (for example both monitors I have now have a power button sticking well past the edge of the LCD area, so I would lose the option of turning my monitors on or off if I wanted to), plus if I did anything wrong I could not reverse the issue (I'd be out many hundreds of $$ and no monitors).
My idea was... I guess.... more of an add-on than a total makeover. Meant not to damage the existing gear. I guess I'm conservative that way.
This shows you never saw a working 3D display. When you see one you'll eat your words.
And by the way this planar mirror setup does _not_ require you to dismantle your monitor in any way. You just get two suitable screen and angle them up with the glass.
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2 different topics there, ripley. Taking apart monitors in response to removing the frame between 2 monitors side-by-side.
And no, I won't be eating my words. I've seen similar effects. Hell even arcade games at Chuck E Cheese can replicate it. It's simulating a hologram (image floating in air) but it's not simulating actual depth. To do that would require HTC to produce the visual hardware we all use and code specifically to use that hardware in such a way that both code and image utilize the full potential of it.
The end result is a 2D game (Aces High) that can only ever be 2D (it spits out flat pixels), and even if you present them "floating" (which I never said was uncool), they're still not "3D" -- which is much more involved.
Personally, I wouldn't want to use a clunky, heavy, setup like that that uses 2x as much hardware (2 monitors) and still only presents 1 image. That's why I wanted to be able to game with 2 monitors, to get widescreen performance. No offense to you, but that's not what I was looking for.
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And no, I won't be eating my words. I've seen similar effects. Hell even arcade games at Chuck E Cheese can replicate it. It's simulating a hologram (image floating in air) but it's not simulating actual depth. To do that would require HTC to produce the visual hardware we all use and code specifically to use that hardware in such a way that both code and image utilize the full potential of it.
The end result is a 2D game (Aces High) that can only ever be 2D (it spits out flat pixels), and even if you present them "floating" (which I never said was uncool), they're still not "3D" -- which is much more involved.
Sorry but you will be. Nvidia have been shipping 3D Stereo drivers for a long time now, most Nvidia cards are capable of rendering in Stereo 3D ***as are most directx games***. The 3D you can experience is AH is nothing like a hologram or that kind of technology, that really shows your lack of understanding on this subject krusty.
Answer my question, what 3D devices have you used with AH?
I think the answer is NONE. So someone (you krusty) with a lack of technological understanding on the subject and no experience is trying to tell someone with a good understand of the technology who uses it on a daily basis (me) that they're opinion is wrong?
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Can you describe what 3D gives to AH? If you're flying isn't everything so far away that there is no depth to it? Does a target at 400 yds really give you any depth cues?
You get a feeling of depth. I'd say it kicks in at around 1000 yards. When you're flying low you notice the ground a lot more. When you're in a knife fight (close in) you really get a much better feeling of relative motion to the other guy - your brain seems to perceive where he's going or will be a lot better. The feeling of speed and relative motion to the ground is more prominent as well. Like landing on a CV, you have a better feeling of where the deck is under you as you come in to land.
The immersion is noticeable as well, in the cockpit things really stand out - in fact I hate flying the old 2D style cockpits (like on the typhoon) because it feels wrong compared to the newer 3D cockpits.
You really need to find someone with a decent 3D setup and experience it.
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Spin it all you want Vulcan, I've explained my wants and needs in this thread, and you haven't changed any of that with the side-track topic.
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Spin it all you want Vulcan, I've explained my wants and needs in this thread, and you haven't changed any of that with the side-track topic.
You expressed your opinions, which were factually incorrect, I corrected that - and that's all I intended to do.
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NEC do multiple screens in a single casing for display monitors. Buy one of them instead.