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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: vipe on June 20, 2009, 04:05:02 PM

Title: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: vipe on June 20, 2009, 04:05:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBfwXT_S70o

the first man. he pulls is just insane. is this possible?
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: StokesAk on June 20, 2009, 04:12:33 PM
Yes just not as drastic and the recovery would trash most of you E and you would have to chase after them.
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: AWwrgwy on June 20, 2009, 05:59:31 PM
I would say SEARCH because it has been discussed more than once.  One reeealy long thread with how-to's too, but I wouldn't know what to search for.

I'll see what I can find.


edit: search so far:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,260968.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,260968.0.html)


wrongway
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: Anodizer on June 20, 2009, 06:28:59 PM
I would say SEARCH because it has been discussed more than once.  One reeealy long thread with how-to's too, but I wouldn't know what to search for.

I'll see what I can find.


edit: search so far:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,260968.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,260968.0.html)


wrongway

The video Vipe is talking about isn't that flatplate maneuver..  And to my knowledge, this is the 1st discussion based on this particular (Candeleria's)..
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: LYNX on June 20, 2009, 07:12:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBfwXT_S70o

the first man. he pulls is just insane. is this possible?

Its a rudder skid and yes its done daily but as already said you'd lose too much E and would end up chasing especially when u miss the shot  :D

This has been on the boards before a few yrs back but so what.  Whats remarkable is in this game we get another chance to perfect the wildest of maneuvers.  This guy had 1 chance only .... well done  :salute
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: uptown on June 20, 2009, 08:03:45 PM
yes
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: TheAce on June 20, 2009, 08:12:49 PM
Yes, it does work, it work's very well. But as stated before you lose most of your E and would end up chasing after em. That's why you wait till they're very close, say 400-200 or less, at that range it's definitely very risky, especially since that is the kill zone for most pilots.
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: Belial on June 20, 2009, 09:22:19 PM
I dont believe its possible in this game, if it is I would like to see a film.
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: Motherland on June 20, 2009, 09:45:23 PM
I don't see why you couldn't do it.

The question is, whether or not Dogfight's portrayal of the maneuver is accurate.
I mean, look at that 109 :lol
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: bravoa8 on June 20, 2009, 10:02:20 PM
I dont believe its possible in this game, if it is I would like to see a film.
me nethier belial
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: wgmount on June 21, 2009, 12:46:41 AM
I don't know that it is possible in the game either. I tried to replicate it. I dropped fro 15k to 1k to get some speed. but i didn't have enough rudder input to skid around like that.
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: moot on June 21, 2009, 04:48:17 AM
I'll play the cocky bastard here.  It was discussed here, a number of separate times, and if it's doable, it won't be easy to pull off.  There's some other plane that I fly non-stop since it was added ~7 years ago, and a number of maneuvers as off the wall as Candelaria's require you to control the plane exactly right, not fraction of a second too early or soon nor an inch too short or far.  I've pulled them off a few times and probably couldn't on demand right now, even after a whole night of practicing them.  e.g. a Cobra (slightly canted but identical in function and sequence), or something functionally identical and visually only a bit different from that twirl by Candelaria. 
It's very difficult to pull em off correctly, and random players, who by all appearances don't have much stick time in the game, can't credibly just dismiss it as impossible.
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: Belial on June 21, 2009, 09:27:41 AM
I said SHOW ME THE MONEY.




Lettttts see it lord m00t
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: moot on June 21, 2009, 09:32:11 AM
I've got no reason to step in this one other than telling the truth :)
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: BaldEagl on June 21, 2009, 09:47:30 AM
I'll go with moot on this one.  If you actually can pull off a manouver like that it's likely only going to be once.

I was flying a Typhoon one day being chased by 3-4 cons.  I pulled the nose up and as they gained on me I tried to drop the left wing to turn against the engine torque.  The torque was so great and I was so slow the wing wouldn't dip so I cranked in full left rudder.  The plane did a complete 180 degree flat spin and I was facing directly back at my opponents.

Now I realize that's not the same manuver but try as I might I've never been able to repeat it.  So, that's  a manouver that is possible but the likelyhood of being able to pull it off is very slim as conditions have to be exactly right.
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: mechanic on June 21, 2009, 10:08:07 AM
The animations are terrible on that show. Hitech gives us a more real feeling of flight here. I think they just made a bad interpretation of the move from the guys account. The move is very difficult but also very easy to get close to. It is a forced stall turn by bleeding all speed in the pull up. The 109 just watches him and flies past underneath. The stall turn would be fast and controlled enough to bring the nose down on target for a snapshot. This relies completely on the 109 practicaly flying past straight and level at full speed. It's a sloppy move in AH, most of the time. Unlikely to make a good killshot oppertunity with 50 cals. I will look for a film to show this move in AH.
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: jdbecks on June 21, 2009, 10:25:40 AM
sounds very similiar to this manover, just instead of pulling up he dives,

Quote
As the fighter approached, Hartmann
used his rudder to point his fighter in a slightly different direction from the
way it was going, to mislead the attacker into misjudge the amount of
deflection required. When his attacker opened fire, Hartmann slammed the
stick in the far corner of the cockpit, putting his Messerschmitt into the first
half of an oblique loop. In his words: "Fly quickly straight ahead and push
the rudder so you fly straight ahead skid that will not be recognized by the
attacker. IF he opens fire, you push for negative G's down left or right, not
forgetting through the whole maneuver to push the rudder. Your attacker
will hang with negative G's in his belt, unable to pull the trigger. With that
maneuver, I saved my life several times."
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: dtango on June 21, 2009, 04:28:24 PM
My $.02 ;)

1) This topic surfaces every so often when someone who hasn't seen that Dogfight episode brings it up.  By his description Candelaria pulled off an amazing move in real life! 

However, whether the Dogfights CGI accurately depicts what happened is totally debatable.  I personally wouldn't put too much stock into the CGI depiction.

2) Post stall maneuvers can be done in real life.  Most commonly today Aerobatic pilots dazzle air show attenders every year with a repertoire of incredible post stall maneuvers.  For instance there are the lomcevak family of maneuvers like the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skfprThzUq4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SrF5On5xIk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZxXihk7-0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPM8qveStJ0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1GVpyHYwtM&feature=related (Sean Tucker)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpwDrBieXC4&feature=related (40 second mark - Victor Smolin)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOHSUvGb93E&feature=related (Svetlana Kapanina)

3) Are we able to do post stall maneuvers in AH?  Since AH models real world physics the answer of course is yes.  Here is an example of a P-51D lomcevak that I call the "flat plate" done in AH that's been discussed in the past (usually in association with Candelaria's maneuver).  And yes it's repeatable ;).  As with real lomcevak's it's actually a precision maneuver that requires precise controls for entry, control, and exit.

(http://brauncomustangs.org/films/flatplate1.gif)

(http://brauncomustangs.org/films/flatplate3.gif)

4) As to the usefulness of such maneuvers, I would characterize post stall maneuvers like the "flat plate" a last ditch maneuver.  Former fighter pilot Andy Bush touched on the concept of "last ditch maneuvers" in a article at SimHQ.  Quoting Andy:
Quote
Last Ditch Maneuvers. Sometimes nothing you do works. Sometimes the bandit is the Red Baron and nothing will shake him off your tail. Sometimes you are going to have to throw caution to the winds and bet it all on one last attempt to save your skin. This is known as the Last Ditch Maneuver. Last ditch maneuvers are maneuvering techniques that attempt to force an abrupt role reversal through a severe change in closure and/or angle off. In real life, they typically rely on the extreme negative effect on airspeed that high angle of attack (AOA) maneuvers have. But what works in real life may not work in the sim...and too often this is the case. But, as sim flight models become more like the real world, you may find that you can employ these techniques against your opponent.

He further gives examples of the high-g roll underneath or the high-g roll over the top.  Here is the link to the last page of the article where the topic is addressed briefly:

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_023a.html

Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: A8TOOL on June 22, 2009, 01:44:21 AM
My $.02 ;)

1)


Very Cool Graphics  Dtango
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: Ruah on June 22, 2009, 04:27:40 AM
I better go buy a rudder. . .ASD is not gonna cut it with this crowd!
damn nice flying m8.

Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: NaughtyN on June 22, 2009, 05:43:33 AM
Great explanation dtango and amazing animations. I am estonished it can be done in AH2.

I also think the main problem here is the CGI animation. Candelarias description is of a last ditch move where luck aided a bit.

As dtango mentioned under #4 they are for the situations when nothing else works.
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: Infidelz on June 22, 2009, 05:50:17 AM
Saw this maneuver twice yesterday. After the first time he should have just run. If your patient, you just run them into the dirt cause they have no E.  That said, it was pretty amazing to watch.

infidelz.
Title: Re: Can this maneuver be pulled off in AH?
Post by: Yenny on June 28, 2009, 01:15:22 AM
That manuever is doable in AWs, I'm not sure of AH2. Never tried it in AH2, but I did pull it off a few times in AWs.