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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: CAP1 on July 06, 2009, 10:02:49 AM
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hey guys.....not sure if i should put this here or in general discussion?
last night, i was in mw......having issues with my back, so i launched, hit auto climb, and went afk.
came back, and i'm passing through 22k, so i went level. looked at the map, and see a LOT of cons and a single friendly near V38. i call him on squad vox, asking if he has vis on em. he did....he was a little below 20k, and called them all out as being above him. i found them. there was a gaggle of 109(F's i think) all around 20 to 22k.
i climbed a bit more to just over 23k, let my speed come back up, and went in on them....sort of. i would pick one of the higher ones, and try to make a pass.
the problem i was having though, was that i would get my stall buzzer, and the shudder of the oncoming stall with even just a gentle pull out. i was chopping throttle when i'd go in. on one pass, there was one i'd guestimate to have been about 20k, that looked like he was focused on a squaddie. i tried to pick him, and cut to 1/2 throttle as i dove for him. i then felt the shudder of compression,(well before i got near him) went to idle, full up trim, full right rudder, everything i could think of to prevent the compression i entered. went into it anyway, and couldn't recover till about 16k.
so.....my questions? how does one fight in the 38 at that alt? how does one fight against a 109 in a 38 at that alt? how does one prevent compression at that alt?
i'm rarely up that high, and wouldn't have been had i not been afk for so long.
and, yes, we all did try to drag em down lower, but i never heard any reports of any of them getting lower than 20k alt.
i just couldn't believe that i had so much trouble performing a seemingly simple turn at those altitudes.
thanks!
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All 109's should be able to outturn a p38...but if the 38 stick is good its a differnt story
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All 109's should be able to outturn a p38...but if the 38 stick is good its a differnt story
Wow, you really did a bang up job of answering his question.... :rolleyes:
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Wow, you really did a bang up job of answering his question.... :rolleyes:
Same with you. :rolleyes:
At alt in almost any plane simple maneuvers can be difficult because of the differences in true air speed and indicated/ground speed. This might be incorrect, but I've always thought of it this way-The plane flies like it would at the indicated speed, but is actually going the true air speed. e.g A P-38J is at 30k and has a indicated/ground speed of 175, while it has a true speed of 300. The plane flies as if it we're going 175, but is actually going 300. Just my intrpreation of it. :salute
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All 109's should be able to outturn a p38...but if the 38 stick is good its a differnt story
that wasn't the question..........and i don't feel as if i qualify as a "good" 38 pile-it........yet.
the question was......well....just go re-read the post, and you'll see.
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Same with you. :rolleyes:
At alt in almost any plane simple maneuvers can be difficult because of the differences in true air speed and indicated/ground speed. This might be incorrect, but I've always thought of it this way-The plane flies like it would at the indicated speed, but is actually going the true air speed. e.g A P-38J is at 30k and has a indicated/ground speed of 175, while it has a true speed of 300. The plane flies as if it we're going 175, but is actually going 300. Just my intrpreation of it. :salute
hhmm......this actually causes a little more confusion now......because it means that technically, i can compress at 200 or so, rather than over 400? but yet, it would easily explain the stall warning on gentle turns too........
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A lot different fighting at high alts vs. low alts hey?
The problem you run into at higher alts is that your IAS is a lot lower relative to your TGS than at lower alts. As an extreme example there was a little challange on the boards not long ago as to how high you could get a 163. The record was somewhere around 94K so I thought I'd give breaking it a try. I can't remember the specific alt but somewhere around 80K my 163 was both shuddering from flying too fast (Well over 500 mph TGS) and the stall buzzer was sounding because I was going too slow (Under 100 mph IAS). I was attempting to manage that phenomenon when, as I broke 90K my plane dissapeared (evidently a game limitation as it also happened to others).
So, what does all this mean to you and you're P-38 at 20K?
You're already starting with more speed (TGS) and less airflow (IAS) than you would be at a more moderate alt. Therefore it's much easier to compress as you don't have to gain much more speed to do so. Compounding compression (or control stiffness) at higher alts is that the air is thinner and there's less air for the controls to work against to rectify any problems. Again I'll go back to a 163 example. One day I chased a P-51 up to almost 60K when my 163 experienced mach tuck and went into a spin. While I was doing everything I could to get it back under control I wasn't able to do so until I was under 10K. There simply wasn't enough air for my control surfaces to work at the speeds I had attained.
On the other side of the coin you are flying with less airflow over your wings (IAS), even though you're going faster relative to the ground. This airflow is what's required to fly and as it decreases you get the stall buzzer. At higher alts each of your moves has to be longer and more deliberate than at lower alts so as not to disrupt the already minimal airflow you have moving over your control surfaces (i.e. you have to better control your control surfaces angle of attack). A move that would work well at low alts will cause a stall or a spin at higher alts so you need to move more gently and deliberately.
In my experience the P-38 is a very strong high alt fighter and despite what the other poster said it should be able to prevail against most 109's at those types of alts where none of the 109's or 190's are really in their element.
Hope that helps.
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Looks like most the other folks answered the question, flying at altitude is completely different than the typical MA fights. There are a couple fields in the TA at I think about 20k alt. If you see me online and you want to play around at 20k+ let me know and we can head over there and stooge around and see if we can keep the birds from falling out of the sky (I think the last time I was up that high was for the DSG scenario so I could use the practice too).
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A lot different fighting at high alts vs. low alts hey?
The problem you run into at higher alts is that your IAS is a lot lower relative to your TGS than at lower alts. As an extreme example there was a little challange on the boards not long ago as to how high you could get a 163. The record was somewhere around 94K so I thought I'd give breaking it a try. I can't remember the specific alt but somewhere around 80K my 163 was both shuddering from flying too fast (Well over 500 mph TGS) and the stall buzzer was sounding because I was going too slow (Under 100 mph IAS). I was attempting to manage that phenomenon when, as I broke 90K my plane dissapeared (evidently a game limitation as it also happened to others).
So, what does all this mean to you and you're P-38 at 20K?
You're already starting with more speed (TGS) and less airflow (IAS) than you would be at a more moderate alt. Therefore it's much easier to compress as you don't have to gain much more speed to do so. Compounding compression (or control stiffness) at higher alts is that the air is thinner and there's less air for the controls to work against to rectify any problems. Again I'll go back to a 163 example. One day I chased a P-51 up to almost 60K when my 163 experienced mach tuck and went into a spin. While I was doing everything I could to get it back under control I wasn't able to do so until I was under 10K. There simply wasn't enough air for my control surfaces to work at the speeds I had attained.
On the other side of the coin you are flying with less airflow over your wings (IAS), even though you're going faster relative to the ground. This airflow is what's required to fly and as it decreases you get the stall buzzer. At higher alts each of your moves has to be longer and more deliberate than at lower alts so as not to disrupt the already minimal airflow you have moving over your control surfaces (i.e. you have to better control your control surfaces angle of attack). A move that would work well at low alts will cause a stall or a spin at higher alts so you need to move more gently and deliberately.
In my experience the P-38 is a very strong high alt fighter and despite what the other poster said it should be able to prevail against most 109's at those types of alts where none of the 109's or 190's are really in their element.
Hope that helps.
ok...that does make it make more sense....as the time i mentioned going into compression, i did a split s to go after the 109. i was kinda feeling her out, and was doing a looooong slow pull.....which is most probably how i ended up compressed then.
like i said, i'm not normally up that high, not even looking for buffs.........but it would've been fun to have been able to actually fight those guys, rather than flounder around like a fish outta water. :rofl
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Looks like most the other folks answered the question, flying at altitude is completely different than the typical MA fights. There are a couple fields in the TA at I think about 20k alt. If you see me online and you want to play around at 20k+ let me know and we can head over there and stooge around and see if we can keep the birds from falling out of the sky (I think the last time I was up that high was for the DSG scenario so I could use the practice too).
now THAT sounds like fun.....and when i can get in again, if i see ya, i'll pm ya?
thanks!
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In case you're interested here's a wikipedia article on mach tuck which seems mostly correct: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_tuck
It's an interesting phenomenon.
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That'll work, last time I was up that high I dove on a someone a couple thousand feet under me going after some buffs and I was thinking NOW I GOT YA and WHIFF! went sailing right past him because I lost elevator effectiveness, was rather embarrassing. :)
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MACH NUMBER and AIRSPEED vs ALTITUDE
MACH NUMBER is defined as a speed ratio, referenced to the speed of sound.
Since the temperature and density of air decreases with altitude, so does the speed of sound, hence a given true
velocity results in a higher MACH number at higher altitudes.
AIRSPEED is a term that can be easily confused. The unqualified term airspeed can mean any of the following:
a. Indicated airspeed (IAS) - the airspeed shown by an airspeed indicator in an aircraft. Indicated airspeed is expressed in
knots and is abbreviated KIAS.
b. Calibrated airspeed (CAS) - indicated airspeed corrected for static source error due to location of pickup sensor on
aircraft. Calibrated airspeed is expressed in knots and is abbreviated KCAS. Normally it doesn't differ much from IAS.
c. True airspeed (TAS) - IAS corrected for instrument installation error, compressibility error, and errors due to variations
from standard air density. TAS is expressed in knots and is abbreviated KTAS. TAS is approximately equal to CAS at
sea level but increases relative to CAS as altitude increases. At 35,000 ft, 250 KIAS (or KCAS) is approximately 430
KTAS.
IAS (or CAS) is important in that aircraft dynamics (such as stall speed) responds largely to this quantity. TAS is important
for use in navigation (True airspeed ± windspeed = groundspeed).
For purposes of aerodynamics and aerial fighting Indicated Airspeed is the deciding factor. True Airspeed is a navigation number. One would use True Air Speed and wind direction and speed to compute Ground Speed.
The higher you go the lower the indicated airspeed. The speed of sound decreases with altitude so Mach number goes up.
As you get higher and higher you get into "coffin corner". That is the corner of the flight envelope where stall speed and critical Mach approach each other.
In the Jet I fly we have a visual presentation of this corner on the EFIS display (Red hashed bars indicating stall speed at bottom of the speed tape and red hashed bars at the top of the speed tape indicating critical Mach) When the 2 get 20 knots apart life is interesting. There is no margin for error or maneuver.
You don't have this in AH of course but you can figure it out. You should know the clean stall speed of the J is around 100 mph depending on weight. The current mach number is displayed on the E6B. Critical Mach is .67. I would suggest flying at different altitudes and learn how far apart the two actually are and get a feel for the IAS that equals critical Mach at 5,000 foot increments.
It takes a smooth hand to fight effectively in the coffin corner. Ham fisting the controls will lead to departure from controlled flight or mach tuck. Fly with the finger tips and make everything deliberate and smooth. The other guy is gonna have as much trouble as you. Most fights that start up in the corner quickly go downstairs because most folks fly with a death grip on the stick. (A light touch will serve you well at low altitudes as well)
Just remember to take only what the airplane will give you and don't jerk the controls around and your high altitude fights will go in your favor.
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hey guys.....not sure if i should put this here or in general discussion?
last night, i was in mw......having issues with my back, so i launched, hit auto climb, and went afk.
came back, and i'm passing through 22k, so i went level. looked at the map, and see a LOT of cons and a single friendly near V38. i call him on squad vox, asking if he has vis on em. he did....he was a little below 20k, and called them all out as being above him. i found them. there was a gaggle of 109(F's i think) all around 20 to 22k.
i climbed a bit more to just over 23k, let my speed come back up, and went in on them....sort of. i would pick one of the higher ones, and try to make a pass.
the problem i was having though, was that i would get my stall buzzer, and the shudder of the oncoming stall with even just a gentle pull out. i was chopping throttle when i'd go in. on one pass, there was one i'd guestimate to have been about 20k, that looked like he was focused on a squaddie. i tried to pick him, and cut to 1/2 throttle as i dove for him. i then felt the shudder of compression,(well before i got near him) went to idle, full up trim, full right rudder, everything i could think of to prevent the compression i entered. went into it anyway, and couldn't recover till about 16k.
so.....my questions? how does one fight in the 38 at that alt? how does one fight against a 109 in a 38 at that alt? how does one prevent compression at that alt?
i'm rarely up that high, and wouldn't have been had i not been afk for so long.
and, yes, we all did try to drag em down lower, but i never heard any reports of any of them getting lower than 20k alt.
i just couldn't believe that i had so much trouble performing a seemingly simple turn at those altitudes.
thanks!
The quick and easy explanation would be to use your throttle to control your speed more when above 20,000ft and watch your nose low turns.
This is where throttle control is important, you can't let yourself get too fast when above 20,000ft without risking entering into compressability. Unlike lower altitudes where you can keep the throttle up against the stops, you can't at high altitude.
Another important thing is watch out on your turns. P-38 turns best in nose low turns, but at high altitudes you have to be careful because you can lose it in a nose low turns by getting too much speed and either losing the advantage because your controls become sluggish with speed or worse case scenario you enter into compressability.
Rembember, fight upwards and not downwards.
ack-ack
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That'll work, last time I was up that high I dove on a someone a couple thousand feet under me going after some buffs and I was thinking NOW I GOT YA and WHIFF! went sailing right past him because I lost elevator effectiveness, was rather embarrassing. :)
:rofl
sounds like exactly what i did to that 109 driver. if he realized what happened, he was probably laughing his arse off....... :rofl
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That happened to me once in a 38. Took off, went AFK and by the time I came back it was right near 30K Feet. So I went to turn her over and get back down to earth, the minute I did I went into compression nearly instantly lol. Nothing I did would pull out of it, I was a missile. :O
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the problem i was having though, was that i would get my stall buzzer, and the shudder of the oncoming stall with even just a gentle pull out.
That's not a 38 issue. All planes have less favorable lift/handling characteristics up high. If anything, the P38 suffers less than many other planes at higher altitudes. When you're thinking maneuvering, look at your IAS to judge what your maneuver options are. Remember not to be heavy handed, and be patient because your opponent also has maneuvering issues.
i was chopping throttle when i'd go in. on one pass, there was one i'd guestimate to have been about 20k, that looked like he was focused on a squaddie. i tried to pick him, and cut to 1/2 throttle as i dove for him. i then felt the shudder of compression,(well before i got near him) went to idle, full up trim, full right rudder, everything i could think of to prevent the compression i entered. went into it anyway, and couldn't recover till about 16k. so.....my questions? how does one fight in the 38 at that alt? how does one fight against a 109 in a 38 at that alt? how does one prevent compression at that alt?
This is very managable if you watch your TAS when you are going nose down for more than 5 seconds at a time...or if you're at cruising speed. If you're in BnZ mode, you need to plan your approach so that you either do not approach at a steep angle, or so that you're transitioning closer to a level attitude by the time you get to your target. That said, I still fight in the vertical at altitudes above 20k, but I am topping out below stall speed and coming straight down, not starting a dive while already going 250 TAS, or staying in a steep dive long enough to reach 400 TAS. If I find myself having to chop my throttle to control my speed, I already made a mistake as far as I'm concerned.
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Only a couple of us flew the 38J in DGS because of concerns for the high alt stuff and compressibilty. The rest flew the 38L with the dive flaps. As one of two J drivers I never had any problem with it, but I really watched the throttle and used lots of rudder if I started moving downhill too fast. As Murdr stated, you have to think more ahead of the game at alt because no one is going to turn real fast. That being said, the 38s we had in DGS did fine up high, although as most know, I prefer low alt in a 38G :)
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Stall speed is related to Indicated Airspeed.
And it doesn't change with altitude. An aircraft that stalls at 100 mph at sea level will stall at 100 knots at high altitude (There is some variation but it is minor for the purposes of this discussion)
The difference is that indicated airspeed drops with altitude.
At sea level full power in an average late war fighter you will be around 300 MPH IAS. At 30K you might see 180 MPH IAS as an example.
Same stall speed at 1 G of 100 MPH
Stall speed increases in proportion to the square root of the G force on the airframe.
At sea level you can easily pull 4 G. There is an excess of airspeed. Stall speed at 4 G is twice the 1 G stall speed (Square root of 4 being 2) which equals 200 mph in our example.
At 30K the same 4 G turn will stall the airplane. If you are high enough, accelerating to above 200 mph so that you can pull 4 G may exceed critical mach and put the aircraft into compression.
So at high altitude you are limited by low G tolerance before stall because the air is thin. You are limited by flying at indicated airspeeds closer to stall and you are limited because you are flying closer to critical mach number.
True airspeed is not important for high altitude performance. Indicated airspeed and Mach number are the values to concentrate on.
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at first, like i mentioned, i wasn't sure if i should've put this here or in the general discussion forum. i'm very glad i put it here. in the general discusion, i think i'd have gotten more replies like that first one.......here though, you guys are all giving excellent info!
now for the stupid question..........
TAS is indicated by the red needle on the airspeed indicator, correct? and the white needle is my IAS?
if so, am i correct in the fact, that i should pretty much ignore my TAS when maneuvering in a fight at those alts?
if i were to practice fighting at those alts, does it help, hinder, or have no effect on fighting at lower alts? i'm talking in the p38 still.......regardles of my ego(what little i have left) i'm not getting out of the 38 till i can fly her and fight in her as well as i was doing in the hurris, spits, zeeks, hellkittys, etc.
and finally......Murdr(i think) mentioned that if anything, the 38 had a bit of an advantage up that high. it looked to me like those 109 drivers were controlling themselves much better than i was controlling my ride. would i have been wrong on that one too? i mean were they most probably struggling as i was?
i didn't(and still don't) think it was anything to do with the aircraft(my trusty cartoon p38), but rather i think(well...i KNOW) the problem was and is(for now anyway) with the pile-it behind the controls.
again, thanks guys for all of your helpful input, and taking your time to reply to these!\
<<S>>
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and finally......Murdr(i think) mentioned that if anything, the 38 had a bit of an advantage up that high. it looked to me like those 109 drivers were controlling themselves much better than i was controlling my ride. would i have been wrong on that one too? i mean were they most probably struggling as i was?
Yes, they would be struggling too, however they can still out turn you by about the same percentage at that altitude as they would on the deck. The thing that really does a planes maneuvering options in at altitude is the thrust deficit. 20-22k isn't quite high enough for a P-38 to gain that power advangae on a 109f...23k and above would preferable for that match up.
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True airspeed is not important for high altitude performance. Indicated airspeed and Mach number are the values to concentrate on.
Freaking Mach number is not on your instrument panel. Cap can glance at his TAS and say "crap, I better be careful, I'm doing 420 TAS at 22K", or he can pull out his clipboard................clic k E6B...........figure out how close he is to Mach .68...that is if he knows that's the number for the P-38 (if not, remeber it), and by that time it doesn't matter, because it does not take a P-38 all that long to hit critical mach at altitude.
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I would like to add something to this thread, I hear quite a few comments about the P-51 not being all it was made out to be in historical right ups. Well a while back I did a bomber escort mission in a P-51 and we got up to around 25 or 30k and got intercepted by co-alt enemy fighters of all varieties. And I was amazed at the how much better the Mustang was at the higher altitudes, I chewed everything up that I came across. And that got me thinking about the fact that the mustang was built for high Alt escort and that's where most of the dogfights took place in ww2 and that's probably why it had such a good reputation amongst the pilots that flew her. I have taken other fighters up to that altitude and it took a lot more effort to fly them and you almost feel as if your always right on the edge of out of control.
Anytime I get to 20k or better I end up in trouble unless I'm in the mustang (never flew any of the other high alt planes), and that goes double if I'm in a plane with a low compression rate (P-38). And as everyone knows the 109's get stiff around 450mph, and if you really want to get in trouble take a K4 up at the higher altitudes where its top speed is around 440mph and try to dogfight, its almost impossible.
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sometimes too much "unecessary information" clouds the subject just as much as posting "wrong information"
for reporting plane performance, speeds, climbrates, turn rates etc......... most times these are reported using TAS ( True Air Speed )
for Manuevering you always want to use IAS ( Indicated Air speed ), for this is what the speed is for your plane type that is being calculated/determined by the planes PITOT tube
REMEMBER:
Use IAS ( Indicated Air Speed ) ie.... THE WHITE NEEDLE ON THE GAUGE for MANEUVERING SPEED
Use TAS ( True Air Speed ) ie.... THE RED NEEDLE ON THE GAUGE for determining Plane Performance
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Yes, they would be struggling too, however they can still out turn you by about the same percentage at that altitude as they would on the deck. The thing that really does a planes maneuvering options in at altitude is the thrust deficit. 20-22k isn't quite high enough for a P-38 to gain that power advangae on a 109f...23k and above would preferable for that match up.
In my experience in the 38's it seemed to me that those twin thrusters gave it a vertical advantage at higher alts particularily against the 109's and 190's, which get pretty feable at anything much over 20K, but you fly them a lot more than I do so I could be wrong.
I do fly 109's and 190's quite a bit and in a 109 I'd want that fight in the 15-17K range or lower. I'd only want it in a 190 if I could maintain a speed advantage regardless of alt although a 190 could safely dive out at any time.
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Ah, what air density and temperature does to the performance of an airplane! And of course God made it so that they vary with altitude which confuses and complicates it for dweebs like us! It affects a whole host of things from lift and drag, to thrust and compressibility.
Though I'm tempted to explain the physics (along with full waving of the hands!) I'll refrain and cut to the chase with hopefully some practical stuff.
Avoiding compressibility effects in the P-38:
First - that dive flap on the J and L models? It was put their for a reason ;) - for the very purpose of dealing with the P-38's nasty compressibility effects. It's wise to use it.
Second airspeed matters. Of course compressibility effects kick in when local regions of the plane hit mach one. And God would make it so that the speed of sound in true airspeed reduces with increasing altitude (at least for the realm of the atmosphere we usually fly our virtual airplanes in). The upshot is that the true airspeed and the indicated airspeed when you experience compression reduces with increasing altitude. So what's a poor P-38 pilot supposed to do? Besides the good advice Murdr gives on this maybe the following chart is also helpful.
(http://thetongsweb.net/images/ias_tas_mach3.jpg)
The P-38's dive speed placard says the limit is about mach .65. I've marked up the NACA chart there with a red line to indicate where Mach .65 is. Our handy little chart gives us where mach .65 is at various altitudes for both IAS and TAS. The blue lines represent the range of IAS for mach .65 from sea level to 30k. Notice how much the IAS speed ranges from: ~500mph at sea level to 290mph at 30k. I've put blue markers for increments of 5,000 feet for you for reference so you see that mach .65 ranges from:
SL = 500 mph
5k = 470 mph
10k = 430 mph
15k = 390 mph
20k = 360 mph
25k = 320 mph
30k = 290 mph
Conversely you can look at TAS (green lines) as well which ranges from 500 mph @ SL to 440 mph @ 30k for mach .65.
Of course you can push the limit some more and move up to mach .68 as Murdr suggests. Redraw the lines as appropriate and see what that gets ya.
Altitude effects on performance are more than just compression related - e.g. the turbosuperchargers of the P-38 greatly benefit it compared to the 109F and G series. But for the sake of brevity I'll limit this post to the issue of compression.
Hope that helps!
Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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That chart cannot be used without the accompanying standard atmosphere table if you are looking for True Airspeed
The whole thing here (http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1943/naca-wr-l-473.pdf)
It is a very old chart and there are some errors in it because of its age but useful for comparing Indicated Airspeed to Mach number. Beyond that there is little utility in game and it is obsolete for real world use.
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That chart cannot be used without the accompanying standard atmosphere table if you are looking for True Airspeed
The whole thing here (http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1943/naca-wr-l-473.pdf)
It is a very old chart and there are some errors in it because of its age but useful for comparing Indicated Airspeed to Mach number. Beyond that there is little utility in game and it is obsolete for real world use.
Hmmm....riddle me this. Why do you need the accompanying standard atmosphere table? The chart above is already in standard atmosphere which of course is also the atmosphere we have in AH. It also has a correction factor for when you're not in standard atmosphere by TAS on the 2ndary x-axis and the temperature lines associated.
And why is there little utility in the game? As Murdr has already mentioned we don't have mach meters in WW2 in our virtual WW2 aircraft save for popping up the E6B but why would you be doing that in a middle of a fight vs. glancing at the airspeed indicator?
Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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:salute
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i still have that one question though?
will practicing at those altitudes help improve low alt performance of the loose nut behind the controls?
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i still have that one question though?
will practicing at those altitudes help improve low alt performance of the loose nut behind the controls?
If you don't already know the edges of the flight envelope then yes it will help. I never look at my instrument panal during any fight at any alt in any plane. I go strictly by sound (wind noise, stall buzzer, etc.), feel (buffeting, control stiffness, etc.) and need relative to what my opponent's doing.
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i still have that one question though?
will practicing at those altitudes help improve low alt performance of the loose nut behind the controls?
Yes in the way that you will gain a more finese control over your controller inputs and your flying performance should become more smoother fluid like
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Here is the dive placard for the P-38L (for the purposes of AH, the figures also apply to earlier models)
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/p38dive.jpg)
If you'll notice the TAS figures, there is not a wide variance. That's why in an engagement at high altitude I suggest glancing at your TAS when contemplating a diving maneuver. It is a simple way to avoid trying to dive 3,000ft and end up recovering 10,000 feet later.
By the way, the source for that image, and a number of other historical documents are availble from their respective AHWiki aircraft pages. I uploaded a few hundred MBs of documents earlier this year.
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In my experience in the 38's it seemed to me that those twin thrusters gave it a vertical advantage at higher alts particularily against the 109's and 190's, which get pretty feable at anything much over 20K, but you fly them a lot more than I do so I could be wrong.
I do fly 109's and 190's quite a bit and in a 109 I'd want that fight in the 15-17K range or lower. I'd only want it in a 190 if I could maintain a speed advantage regardless of alt although a 190 could safely dive out at any time.
If I had to be nailed down on a figure for P-38J/L vs 109F I'd have to go with 23k because that's were the 38s power advantage starts to become definitive, but there is wiggle room there depending on pilot skill and who still has WEP. I can't count the number of times I've dragged an enemey plane up with my 38 to a specific altitude for that model so I could out power them and dance on their head :)
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Freaking Mach number is not on your instrument panel. Cap can glance at his TAS and say "crap, I better be careful, I'm doing 420 TAS at 22K", or he can pull out his clipboard................clic k E6B...........figure out how close he is to Mach .68...that is if he knows that's the number for the P-38 (if not, remeber it), and by that time it doesn't matter, because it does not take a P-38 all that long to hit critical mach at altitude.
Isn't that what the ACCEL(eration) guage is...?
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Freaking Mach number is not on your instrument panel. Cap can glance at his TAS and say "crap, I better be careful, I'm doing 420 TAS at 22K", or he can pull out his clipboard................clic k E6B...........figure out how close he is to Mach .68...that is if he knows that's the number for the P-38 (if not, remeber it), and by that time it doesn't matter, because it does not take a P-38 all that long to hit critical mach at altitude.
see...that may have been part of my problem too. i very rarely look inside if there's any badguy near me. i try to go by sound, and the feel of the controls.
i definitly appreciate all of your guys input, and think i'm gonna hit the ta and launch from those 20k fields.....because i don;t really know the limits of my aircraft...and what better place to practice, than in a practice areana? :aok
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i very rarely look inside if there's any badguy near me. i try to go by sound, and the feel of the controls.
That's a very good practice. But at high altitude, it just takes is a glance at the airspeed indicator to help figure out your options...And really that is part of SA also.
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That's a very good practice. But at high altitude, it just takes is a glance at the airspeed indicator to help figure out your options...And really that is part of SA also.
I WILL be adding that.......as although i really like the low fights, this is kind of like a new challenge........
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Isn't that what the ACCEL(eration) guage is...?
You mean accelerometer? That tells you the G load you are pulling.
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You mean accelerometer? That tells you the G load you are pulling.
Yeah, I noticed that only after I had already posted and played the game a little afterward - just didn't feel like editing the post.
My mistake.
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All 109's should be able to outturn a p38...but if the 38 stick is good its a differnt story
Huh? I'm by far not an excellent 38 Stick but I have no trouble out turning 109's with the exception of the E and F. G's and K's are no problem.
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Huh? I'm by far not an excellent 38 Stick but I have no trouble out turning 109's with the exception of the E and F. G's and K's are no problem.
I MANAGED to out turn a 109g in a hellkitty.....but haven't managed to out turn any of the 109's in my 38 as yet......
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Cap1, I clipped together some P-38J vs different MW 109 films for you (the last clip I just threw on b/c it was fun)
vs109s.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/vs109s.ahf)
Given equal conditions the 109 has the turn radius advantage on the P-38, but the 38 is very close, and in the case of the K, on par for rate of turn. The advantage is not so great that different loadouts and pilot skills can't even up the fight.
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After watching that film, I need to reassess my throttle work in the 38... Thanks Murdr.
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Cap1, I clipped together some P-38J vs different MW 109 films for you (the last clip I just threw on b/c it was fun)
vs109s.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/vs109s.ahf)
Given equal conditions the 109 has the turn radius advantage on the P-38, but the 38 is very close, and in the case of the K, on par for rate of turn. The advantage is not so great that different loadouts and pilot skills can't even up the fight.
ggrrrr........filmviewer won't open on m work computer......i'll have to look at it tonight.
after last nights performance though..........i was nothing more than a target drone for the most part. got a couple kills, but nothing really notable.....except for parts of my 38 scattered between a1 and a-19.
was doing decent against a zeek, till help arived in the form of a hurri, and corsair......neither of which had enough speed to run me down as i egressed towards a friendly, to make it a 2-3, rather than a 1-3. funny thing though....the zeek dude was trying to shoot from 1k out. whoever you were.....it doesn't work. then i got ho'd by the corsair as i was trying to merge the hurri. :cry :rolleyes:
pangea was there, and being very quiet.......but i had a number of fights against him. they were FUN. really good pile-it, and always a clean fight from him.
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I MANAGED to out turn a 109g in a hellkitty.....but haven't managed to out turn any of the 109's in my 38 as yet......
I've done ok against the later 109s in the 38G. It's the E, F and G2 that can get inside the turn on the 38G when I get too slow. The others I can generally get everything hanging out and be haging on the stall and get inside their turns down low.
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Cap1, I clipped together some P-38J vs different MW 109 films for you (the last clip I just threw on b/c it was fun)
vs109s.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/vs109s.ahf)
Given equal conditions the 109 has the turn radius advantage on the P-38, but the 38 is very close, and in the case of the K, on par for rate of turn. The advantage is not so great that different loadouts and pilot skills can't even up the fight.
mannnnnn.....i WISH i could maneuver the 38 around like that. i also wish the filmviewer would show control inputs. i could hear your throttle work some, but it was hard sometimes when the other planes were close......i saw you staying verticle in places where i seem to always lose the fights, and at speeds well below what i try to maintain.....and it looked like you were heavy on the rudder to get 'round on him a couple times?
i'm gonna hafta watch it again....many more times actually.
thanks dude!!
:aok
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and it looked like you were heavy on the rudder to get 'round on him a couple times?
IIRC, mainly when inverted and near stall to assist rolling as the bogie passed under me...I think once to skid when I was off the throttle to keep separation...and probably a few times when shooting. I do use rudder for roll assit quite often without even thinking about it, but typically not during a hard pitch maneuver which tends to stall 1 wing.
As far as throttle there were only two reasons for not being at full thottle...either I wanted to adjust closure/separation, or I was making a nose down turn that risked a flight path overshoot and did not want to accelerate much beyond corner velocity.
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IIRC, mainly when inverted and near stall to assist rolling as the bogie passed under me...I think once to skid when I was off the throttle to keep separation...and probably a few times when shooting. I do use rudder for roll assit quite often without even thinking about it, but typically not during a hard pitch maneuver which tends to stall 1 wing.
As far as throttle there were only two reasons for not being at full thottle...either I wanted to adjust closure/separation, or I was making a nose down turn that risked a flight path overshoot and did not want to accelerate much beyond corner velocity.
ok.......your last statement brings another question? when i do nose low turns, even at idle, she accelerates like the dickens. on occasion, i've cross controlled......like if i'm turning right, i'll dump some left rudder and kinda skid down.....then release it, and go back to coordinated flight as i get to where i think i need to be.
does that make sense, or am i overcomplicating things?
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You can do that. It's very rare that I would do that while pulling a lot of stick. It's also risky when turning nose down out of the vertical because it's likely to induce a spin.
Just to reiterrate though. I'm rarely off the throttle in a turn, and the main exception when a split-s or slice is likely to blow through the bandits flight path. If there's no risk of a flight path overshoot, I want all the E I can get.
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You can do that. It's very rare that I would do that while pulling a lot of stick. It's also risky when turning nose down out of the vertical because it's likely to induce a spin.
Just to reiterrate though. I'm rarely off the throttle in a turn, and the main exception when a split-s or slice is likely to blow through the bandits flight path. If there's no risk of a flight path overshoot, I want all the E I can get.
hhmm......that could be a lot of my problem then too.....i tend to back off the throttle in tighter turns, as it almost feels as if the engines are actually "pulling" me. kinda like a car that "pushes" through the turns.....
as for me cross controlling when i think i'm accelerating too fast on the downhill....i've never done it below about 150 or so......
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.....i tend to back off the throttle in tighter turns, as it almost feels as if the engines are actually "pulling" me. kinda like a car that "pushes" through the turns.....
In most cases you'd be hurting your turn radius and rate rather than helping. A rule of thumb is if you can pull the stick hard enough to stall without blacking out, you *want* all the speed you have. If you have flaps out, and pull 4g's that means you are close to the top speed of your flap range (and also near your best turn rate at that flap setting). (BTW, I don't not look at the G meter, I can tell by the magnitude of the blackout.) Slowing down will only deteriorate your turn, unless you're slowing to where can deploy another notch of flaps.
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In most cases you'd be hurting your turn radius and rate rather than helping. A rule of thumb is if you can pull the stick hard enough to stall without blacking out, you *want* all the speed you have. If you have flaps out, and pull 4g's that means you are close to the top speed of your flap range (and also near your best turn rate at that flap setting). (BTW, I don't not look at the G meter, I can tell by the magnitude of the blackout.) Slowing down will only deteriorate your turn, unless you're slowing to where can deploy another notch of flaps.
i'll keep that in mind.
it may sound weird, but reading these is putting some ideas in my head, and i think actually helping me a lot.....hopefully others too.
i dropped into a furball between rooks and bish the other night....and didn't fare that bad. i ended up with 2 kills, and the reset saving my butt fron chief innn his 109.
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