Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JB88 on July 06, 2009, 05:29:53 PM
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sort of surprised that noone has posted about his passing.
certainly a character worth noting.
thoughts?
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who? :huh
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who? :huh
uhhhh....
robert mcnamara. secretary of defense to kennedy and johnson.
architect of the vietnam war.
hello?
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I hadn't seen anywhere that he had died. Weird.
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yep. 93 years old.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8136595.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8136595.stm)
it was headlining this morning, but got overwhelmed by the micheal jackson circus/debacle.
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This has an interesting writeup. The discussion of the Vietnam war is completely one-sided, but it mirrors McNamara's viewpoint.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/us/07mcnamara.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp
He brought an analytical approach to everything in the DoD at a time where the inmates were running the asylum. In my opinion he was in large part responsible for the current highly disciplined state of the military where civilian control of all things military is absolutely not questioned. That may be debatable since the military had a strong tradition of civilian control before he took over managing the military, but he really changed almost everything about how the military was run as far as ensuring every dollar spent was the result of at least an attempt at rigorous analysis of costs, benefits, and requirements that could be stated more clearly than "yea we outta have some of dat".
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I know a couple of guys that would like to take a leak on his grave, but I'm not one of them.
<S> Robert McNamara.
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People like him were the ones who ordered SAM sites 'under construction' to be off limits to F105's as they flew over them every day on the way to the useless targets that Mcnamara and his ilk in DC had picked to bomb that day....People like him were the ones that ordered certain areas off limits to overflight (they wanted to fight a 'nice' war) so that a real target NEAR one of afore-mentioned areas had VERY few routes of ingress and egress, sealing the fates of many pilots, and the NVA couldn't believe their luck at having such idiots running the war on the other side
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It's more complicated than that though. McNamara wasn't trying to defeat the North Vietnamese, only protect the South. Trying to defeat the North would inevitably have drawn the Chinese and Russians directly into the conflict, and the South simply wasn't worth starting WWIII over. Many mistakes were made and decisions that with hindsight seem idiotic, but that's no different that any other war. It was a lose-lose situation where losing the war meant giving in to communism and winning meant quite possibly starting WWIII. So the only viable alternative was enforcing a stalemate, but with the peace movement back home and diminishing public support, America was not up to the task of enduring such a stalemate. So in the end we gave in to communism.
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I think you should watch his film 'Fog of War'. He certainly made a lot of mistakes, and are admitting that in the film without going into specifics, but he tried to do what he believed was right. Gotta give him credit for that.
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That is a haunted man. Hope he finds peace.
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People like him were the ones who ordered SAM sites 'under construction' to be off limits to F105's as they flew over them every day on the way to the useless targets that Mcnamara and his ilk in DC had picked to bomb that day....People like him were the ones that ordered certain areas off limits to overflight (they wanted to fight a 'nice' war) so that a real target NEAR one of afore-mentioned areas had VERY few routes of ingress and egress, sealing the fates of many pilots, and the NVA couldn't believe their luck at having such idiots running the war on the other side
As much as I detest his management of the war and the concept of his "100,000" program, this isn't true. The selectivity of targets was a political one that resulted from Johnson's meddling. McNamara was merely responsible for passing those orders along. Don't forget that he was one of the USAAF targeting gurus during WWII that designated 8th AF's daily bombing targets. The man knew everything there was to know about strategic bombing as he had been one of those that crafted it during WWII.
I think Eagle's observation may be most astute. JFK appointed him purposefully to limit the power of guys like LeMay and the rest of the Chiefs whom JFK had grown to distrust. Between his ability to minimize their influence going forward and his desire to apply analytical cost-benefit analyses for everything, he certainly ushered in a new era in the management of DoD and the role of Sec of Def. I believe his impact is most evident in the actions of his successor, Donald Rumsfeld, who ran DoD both the first and second time in a similar manner, for better or worse.
Regardless, it is sad to see the passing of a brilliant man who obviously spent the remainder of his life after the war frustrated and bitter that he couldn't "fix" Vietnam or achieve the success that he had grown accustomed to. Its apparent to me that he is a very good example for anyone who lets their ego take them to Washington D.C. instead of travelling there reluctantly, with humility and a sense of service.
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There are a lot of good men in the ground because they were sent into harms way with their hands tied. Anyone contributing to that does not warrant any respect in my book. Despite what they may have achieved earlier in life.
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All soldiers are sent into harms way with their hands tied. It's just a question of how much rope is used.
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See Rule #14
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I don't know anything...
Obvious really. You shouldn't make this about personal politics.
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Obviously you've no distinction between personal politics and personal observation.
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How do you figure that?
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Ask Skuzzy, and Rule#14...
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There are a lot of good men in the ground because they were sent into harms way with their hands tied. Anyone contributing to that does not warrant any respect in my book. Despite what they may have achieved earlier in life.
Amen.
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Simply put...RIP Robert McNamara...you rest in the company of tens of thousands of brave youths...who personally observed the politics...personally observed the times and personally died...believing in (Skuzzy Rule#14? delete me if necessary, again) America and Her beliefs, perhaps, not yours, Mr. McNamara, of Freedom in Viet Nam as touted by the American News Media and Politcos of the time...but not endorsed by the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines...who did die, locally, in Viet Nam, one-by-one...village-by-village...who did believe in Viet Namese Freedom...fought for it...and paid with their collective lives.
Robert McNamara may have been a brilliant mind planning bombing missions in WWII...but he failed in Viet Nam.
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If you had to choose between losing the South to the communists or starting a full blown war with China and the Soviets, what would you have chosen?
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If you had to choose between losing the South to the communists or starting a full blown war with China and the Soviets, what would you have chosen?
I think he's already made it pretty clear that not wanting to open up a Third World War that would cost millions of lives makes you a Communist.
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Right.
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Die Hard...I didn't have to chose winning the South...it's what I, my Brother (decorated Navy Seal and US Marine), and my Father (a Decorated WWII and Korean War Veteran)...DID...from 1965-1975.
It was McNamara, Johnson, and cronies who only saw maps, and not peoples, who feared China and the Soviets.
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If my previous post breaks rule #14...please delete, Skuzzy....
Heck! Nowadays I'm not sure that anything I say won't hurt someone's feelings...
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Die Hard...I didn't have to chose winning the South...it's what I, my Brother (decorated Navy Seal and US Marine), and my Father (a Decorated WWII and Korean War Veteran)...DID...from 1965-1975.
You defended the South. I'm afraid you didn't win the war, but that was not your fault. You were never meant to win the war, only prevent the South from losing. However, even that became an impossible goal; not militarily, but politically.
It was McNamara, Johnson, and cronies who only saw maps, and not peoples, who feared China and the Soviets.
Anyone in their right mind would fear the Soviets at that time. McNamara and the others were staring down the barrel of 10,000 Soviet nuclear warheads at a time when Khrushchev had said his famous "we will bury you".
You're right. You didn't have to make that choice. McNamara, Johnson, and "cronies" had to. And they made the right one. South Vietnam wasn't worth starting WWIII over, and after several years of watching body bags coming home from Nam, public opinion in the U.S. no longer supported sacrificing American lives to simply hold the communists back in some backwater swampland in South-East Asia. The only viable option was to pull out.
It was never the intention to invade North Vietnam and defeat them. Just hold the South, bomb the North, and hope they would give up. You, as a soldier, was never given the option of winning.
Heck! Nowadays I'm not sure that anything I say won't hurt someone's feelings...
Relax. I don't think you've hurt anyone's feelings. I can imagine this is a very emotional subject for you. I can understand your earlier outburst.
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Robert McNamara may have been a brilliant mind planning bombing missions in WWII...but he failed in Viet Nam.
I agree. I was only trying to make the observation that it obviously weighed heavily on his mind until he died. 40 years is a long time for anyone to be second-guessed every day, publically, and with such fervor. I can't imagine the stress that knowing you were wrong to the tune of 58,000 lives would create in a man's life. That's all I'm trying to say.
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uhhhh....
robert mcnamara. secretary of defense to kennedy and johnson.
architect of the Vietnam war.
hello?
Surprised he wasn't assassinated by some vet, a very poorly handled conflict at best.
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I'm one of the one's that will stand in line to take a leak on his grave. He was a key player in making the ROE that cost a lot of fine young men their lives playing a game LBJ and Bobby Strange never intended to win.
LBJ sure made a lot of bucks for the ole family in SVN though. Maybe that was the point. Brown & Root?
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Fog of War is one of the most fascinating docs ive seen. McNamara comes across as a very thoughtful guy who didnt take his responsibilities lightly, a level head in a time of crisis.
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I think Joe Galloway sums up my feelings on Bobby Strange perfectly.
First of all, for those who don't know who Galloway is, a bit of background:
Joseph L. Galloway is senior military correspondent for Knight Ridder Newspapers, working in their Washington Bureau. He recently concluded a brief assignment as a special consultant to General Colin Powell at the State Department. Galloway, a native of Refugio, Texas, spent 22 years as a foreign and war correspondent and bureau chief for United Press International, and nearly 20 years as a senior editor and senior writer for U.S. News & World Report magazine...
... During the course of 15 years of foreign postings, Galloway served four tours as a war correspondent in Vietnam and also covered the 1971 India-Pakistan War and half a dozen other combat operations. In 1990-1991 Galloway covered Desert Shield/Desert Storm, riding with the 24th Infantry Division (Mech) in the assault into Iraq...
...He is co-author, with Lt. Gen. (ret) Hal G. Moore, of the national bestseller We Were Soldiers Once…and Young---which has been made into a critically acclaimed movie, We Were Soldiers, starring Mel Gibson...
...On May 1, 1998, Galloway was decorated with a Bronze Star Medal with V for rescuing wounded soldiers under fire in the Ia Drang Valley, in November 1965. His is the only medal of valor the U.S. Army awarded to a civilian for actions during the Vietnam War.
Now, Galloway was personally and professionally very familiar with the VietNam war. Note in his comments he references David Halberstam. Halberstam was also quite familiar with the VietNam war and those who ran it:
At the age of 30, he won a Pulitzer Prize for his reporting on the war. He is interviewed in the 1968 documentary film on the Vietnam War entitled In the Year of the Pig.
Halberstam next wrote about President John F. Kennedy's foreign policy decisions about the Vietnam War in The Best and the Brightest.
So, what did Galloway say that I agree with? I'll quote a bit and you can read it all here:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/71328.html
By Joseph L. Galloway | McClatchy Newspapers
"I have never killed a man, but I have read many obituaries with great pleasure." —Clarence Darrow (1857–1938)
Well, the aptly named Robert Strange McNamara has finally shuffled off to join LBJ and Dick Nixon in the 7th level of Hell.
McNamara was the original bean-counter — a man who knew the cost of everything but the worth of nothing.
Back in 1990 I had a series of strange phone conversations with McNamara while doing research for my book We Were Soldiers Once And Young. McNamara prefaced every conversation with this: "I do not want to comment on the record for fear that I might distort history in the process." Then he would proceed to talk for an hour, doing precisely that with answers that were disingenuous in the extreme — when they were not bald-faced lies.
Upon hanging up I would call Neil Sheehan and David Halberstam and run McNamara's comments past them for deconstruction and the addition of the truth.
The only disagreement I ever had with Dave Halberstam was over the question of which of us hated him the most. In retrospect, it was Halberstam.
When McNamara published his first book — filled with those distortions of history — Halberstam, at his own expense, set out on a journey following McNamara on his book tour around America as a one-man truth squad.
McNamara abandoned the tour...
McNamara was a lying, self-serving piece of crap; his ridiculous ROE got a lot of fine men killed. I do hope he is in the 7th level of hell with the other two clowns.
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There's another good piece here:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/07/11/mcnamara_the_smartest_fool_97401.html
This is just one more reason so many people hated Bobby Strange. He was simply a lying bass turd, deliberately lying to the American people.
On Dec. 21, 1963, the secretary of defense returned from a trip to Vietnam and wrote a "Memo for the Record" stating, among other things:
"There is no organized government in South Vietnam at this time. ... It is abundantly clear that statistics received over the past year or more from the Government of Viet Nam officials and reported by the US mission on which we gauged the trend of the war were grossly in error. ... The Viet Cong control larger percentages of the population, greater amounts of territory, and have destroyed or occupied more strategic hamlets than expected. ... In my judgment, there are more reasons to doubt the future of the effort under present programs or moderate extensions to existing programs than there are reasons to be optimistic about the future of our cause in South Vietnam."
Then McNamara went out and assured the American people we were winning -- for four more years.
Just another lying political sock tucker.
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Thanks Toad for posting that, a very interesting read. I do not think the politicians today are any different though, it's been going on for a long time now and obviously it will not stop anytime soon.