Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Saxman on July 07, 2009, 09:14:27 AM
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NCAA Boycots South Carolina (http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/9775436/ACC-moves-tourneys-over-Confederate-flag-dispute)
Citing unresolved disputes over use of the "Confederate Flag" in South Carolina, the NCAA will be moving three upcoming baseball tournaments.
What I find ironic about this whole thing is that NEITHER side seems to realize that the flag they're squabbling over ISN'T EVEN AN ACTUAL CONFEDERATE FLAG.
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It's typical of the apologists in this country trying to force their views on others of the nation.
If South Carolina had some balls, they'd kick the NCAA out of the state and bar them from doing any business there. The NCAA needs to remember that they are a sports agency, not a political arena.
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NCAA Boycots South Carolina (http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/9775436/ACC-moves-tourneys-over-Confederate-flag-dispute)
Citing unresolved disputes over use of the "Confederate Flag" in South Carolina, the NCAA will be moving three upcoming baseball tournaments.
What I find ironic about this whole thing is that NEITHER side seems to realize that the flag they're squabbling over ISN'T EVEN AN ACTUAL CONFEDERATE FLAG.
Actually, it's the Confederate Naval Jack. The Confederate battle flag was square, not rectangular.
I'm not sure why that flag is flown, and quite frankly think that if they(we) want to fly the flag to remember and pay respects to the Confederacy, for whatever reason, it should be the actual flag of the Confederate governament. This flag has never been misused by a hate group and as such IMO should be a fitting compromise.
edit- I'm in SC and am perfectly fine with 1) our flags, all of 'em, 2)our history, and 3)telling the NCAA to go F off. :)
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Stupid crap is what that is man....
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Actually, it's the Confederate Naval Jack. The Confederate battle flag was square, not rectangular.
I'm not sure why that flag is flown, and quite frankly think that if they(we) want to fly the flag to remember and pay respects to the Confederacy, for whatever reason, it should be the actual flag of the Confederate governament. This flag has never been misused by a hate group and as such IMO should be a fitting compromise.
edit- I'm in SC and am perfectly fine with 1) our flags, all of 'em, 2)our history, and 3)telling the NCAA to go F off. :)
It's not EVEN the naval jack. The Naval Jack used a lighter blue (with flags, the colors involved DO MATTER). The flag being argued over is a 20th Century design, pure and simple.
Here's the naval jack:
(http://www.confederatecolonel.com/southernicons/images/250px-Conf_Navy_Jack.svg)
Here's the flag being argued over:
(http://www.confederatemercantile.com/confederate_flag.jpg)
And be careful about the use of the national flags. The second and third flags used the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag in the canton.
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I stand corrected, I wasn't aware of the color difference.
This is the flag I was referring to:
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/218/493988291_7e6b552ecd.jpg?v=0)
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SC, baseball sucks anyways. Keep your flag and your pride :aok
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Sucks for SC because they just built a shiny new baseball stadium
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Interesting to see ignorance at the college level.
Also interesting some can be so proud of their history and heritage while others are punished for such.
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I stand corrected, I wasn't aware of the color difference.
This is the flag I was referring to:
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/218/493988291_7e6b552ecd.jpg?v=0)
That's the first national flag, which I'm sure wouldn't raise the same stink as the ANV battle flag, (true) Navy Jack, or the second and third national flags, mostly because it's not the flag that everyone associates with the Confederacy.
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Interesting to see ignorance at the college level.
Also interesting some can be so proud of their history and heritage while others are punished for such.
QFT.
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Interesting to see ignorance at the college level.
Also interesting some can be so proud of their history and heritage while others are punished for such.
History books are written by the victors, my friend. I have a very good friend who is a history prof at the U of Wyoming. Civil war is her real love (odd, because she's originally from Canada) and just loves the look on the faces of her students when she unravels all of the fiction they have been taught all of their lives concerning the civil war, slavery, etc.
Another relevant point concerning history and how it is taught with respects to government schools.... a had another friend when I used to live in Columbia who was a grad student at the time... he's Japanese by origin, and spent most of his life there. According to him, they were taught in school that the US forced them into war, nothing was ever mentioned of China or Pearl Harbor, and we had no provocation or reason for dropping the atomic bombs.
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History books are written by the victors, my friend. I have a very good friend who is a history prof at the U of Wyoming. Civil war is her real love (odd, because she's originally from Canada) and just loves the look on the faces of her students when she unravels all of the fiction they have been taught all of their lives concerning the civil war, slavery, etc.
Another relevant point concerning history and how it is taught with respects to government schools.... a had another friend when I used to live in Columbia who was a grad student at the time... he's Japanese by origin, and spent most of his life there. According to him, they were taught in school that the US forced them into war, nothing was ever mentioned of China or Pearl Harbor, and we had no provocation or reason for dropping the atomic bombs.
True.... so what does that have to do with college games. That is my point.
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History books are written by the victors, my friend. I have a very good friend who is a history prof at the U of Wyoming. Civil war is her real love (odd, because she's originally from Canada) and just loves the look on the faces of her students when she unravels all of the fiction they have been taught all of their lives concerning the civil war, slavery, etc.
Another relevant point concerning history and how it is taught with respects to government schools.... a had another friend when I used to live in Columbia who was a grad student at the time... he's Japanese by origin, and spent most of his life there. According to him, they were taught in school that the US forced them into war, nothing was ever mentioned of China or Pearl Harbor, and we had no provocation or reason for dropping the atomic bombs.
What does this have to with the Civil War? Or the NCAA?
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Wow, the South Carolina flag has been a issue for a long time (8-10 years i believe). All this time the state had flown that flag for a centuries and now people find it offensive. People need to understand that the confederate flag dose not symbol "slavery" (if that is what the issue is about).
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Wow, the South Carolina flag has been a issue for a long time (8-10 years i believe). All this time the state had flown that flag for a centuries and now people find it offensive. People need to understand that the confederate flag dose not symbol "slavery" (if that is what the issue is about).
The point I was making is that it's NOT EVEN the Confederate flag being flown.
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Driving through a small town in central PA last year, I saw a guy trying to scrub orange graffiti off his pickup truck. One message read 'I'm a redneck, so shoot me', another was just a crude bullseye painted onto the rear window. A couple others I can't repeat on this board.
What earned him this treatment?
He had the confederate battle flag painted on his tail gate.
What's really sad is that if he actually was any of those things the vandals had accused him of being, chances are his response would be several levels beyond their superficial attack.
And so the cycle would continue.
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The point I was making is that it's NOT EVEN the Confederate flag being flown.
Your point is null and void, as the Flag in question is a Confederate Flag.
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I don't get why flying the Confederate flag is such a big deal? After all the Union were once slavers, and the British too. All nations have something in their past they aren't proud of.
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I don't get why flying the Confederate flag is such a big deal? After all the Union were once slavers, and the British too. All nations have something in their past they aren't proud of.
I think it's just the easiest way of assigning blame for one's own inadequacies.
It goes something like this:
'Your great-great-great grandaddy may have once oppressed mine, therefore all of my failures in life and general dissatisfaction with myself is now your fault, you racist.'
On the flip side, it can be a powerful tool for those who want to derive political popularity and leverage by appealing to this tendency.
Way, way easier than making something of yourself and casting the unfortunate events of the past aside, into history, where they belong.
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The point I was making is that it's NOT EVEN the Confederate flag being flown.
It really dosen't matter, as long as it has the simular markings, people still see it as a Confederate flag.
I don't get why flying the Confederate flag is such a big deal? After all the Union were once slavers, and the British too. All nations have something in their past they aren't proud of.
That is a good question. Most people (who all not all familiar with history) think that the war between the states was all because of slavery. The south wanted and the north didn't, even though more people in the north had slaves and the south had little, it is view that the south was a "hate blacks" society. With hate groups like Neo Nazis and KKK they proudly used the Confederated flag as a symbol of there group or society.
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True.... so what does that have to do with college games. That is my point.
It has to do with college games because the NCAA made it about it, as a means to protest the fact that the confederate flag is still flown on the Statehouse grounds. The flag used to be on the capital dome, on the flag pole below the US flag and SC flag, in that order. The NAACP protested, and the state legislature reached a compromise agreement to take it down and move it to a memorial on the side lawn on the grounds. The NAACP immediately reversed position on the compromise and reinstated their boycott with the new demand it be removed all-together. That was in the late '90's, and that's where it stands to this day.
The NCAA is boycotting due to the fact that the flag is displayed on public property.
And no, it has nothing to do with baseball. It is pure ignorance on their part, coupled with, I'd imagine, a lot of pressure from "certain groups."
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Your point is null and void, as the Flag in question is a Confederate Flag.
Neither null NOR void: It's a 20th century flag design that was made to LOOK like the CSA battle flag in order to cater to "Southern Pride" with no actual connection to the Confederate States of America. It's not the battle flag, naval jack, or national flag. It would be EXACTLY the same if someone tried to pass off a flag with blue field, fifty stars, and PURPLE stripes as the American Flag. It LOOKS like it, but it's NOT an American flag.
Oakranger got it: Because it LOOKS like it, people think it IS.
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Ahh there lies the catch... NAACP an extremist race based (read racist) group.
Sounds like a good time to boycot the NCAA.
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Ahh there lies the catch... NAACP an extremist race based (read racist) group.
Sounds like a good time to boycot the NCAA.
I'm afraid if we boycotted all that is ignorant in this world, we'd find ourselves disconnected and removed from about 90% of society today.
If we actually taught history (or many other subjects) without being worried about applying "PC" standards, offending people, or upsetting the falsehoods that people have found comfort with, we'd have a lot more enlightened populace. But then again, we are talking about government schools...
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I'm afraid if we boycotted all that is ignorant in this world, we'd find ourselves disconnected and removed from about 90% of society today.
Would that really be a bad thing?
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actually, probably not. :lol
As long as I have food, electricity and AHII...... :D
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:lol
:rofl
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Wow, the South Carolina flag has been a issue for a long time (8-10 years i believe). All this time the state had flown that flag for a centuries and now people find it offensive. People need to understand that the confederate flag dose not symbol "slavery" (if that is what the issue is about).
I don't get why flying the Confederate flag is such a big deal? After all the Union were once slavers, and the British too. All nations have something in their past they aren't proud of.
Question:
When did South Carolina and other Southern States start displaying the Confederate Battle Flag again? I'm relatively sure no Southern States Incorporated the Confederate Flag in any version into their respective State flags until the advent of the Civil Rights movement in the '60s. I'm also relatively sure no State that seceded continued to fly the flag of secession after the end of hostilities.
It's not about the Confederate Flag or the Civil War per se but about said symbols being coopted by racists such as the KKK in opposition to minority rights. Conversely, the arguments always are like the above where it's, "what's wrong with the South during the Civil War.... Southern Pride...." etc. Has nothing to do with it. It's about racism or perceived racism.
Anyway, my actual original question was what did any State flag that ever had a Confederate flag or representation there of look like before it was so and when was it changed?
wrongway
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Now you've gone and done it!
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Question:
When did South Carolina and other Southern States start displaying the Confederate Battle Flag again? I'm relatively sure no Southern States Incorporated the Confederate Flag in any version into their respective State flags until the advent of the Civil Rights movement in the '60s. I'm also relatively sure no State that seceded continued to fly the flag of secession after the end of hostilities.
It's not about the Confederate Flag or the Civil War per se but about said symbols being coopted by racists such as the KKK in opposition to minority rights. Conversely, the arguments always are like the above where it's, "what's wrong with the South during the Civil War.... Southern Pride...." etc. Has nothing to do with it. It's about racism or perceived racism.
Anyway, my actual original question was what did any State flag that ever had a Confederate flag or representation there of look like before it was so and when was it changed?
wrongway
The flag of Mississippi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Mississippi) still incorporates the Army of Northern Virginia Battle Flag. It was adopted in 1894.
Georgia's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Georgia_(U.S._state)) current flag is partially based on the first national flag of the Confederacy. The flag adopted from 1956-2001 included the ANV battle flag. Ironically, even the Daughters of the Confederacy opposed its adoption due to concerns of how it would be viewed, especially as it was created during the height of the Civil Rights movement.
And wgwy, once again it's NOT the Confederate battle flag.
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I proudly admit that i don't know much on history of state flags other then Alaska is the only state that both sides are diffrent and Ohio is not the rectangle shape. Thx for pointing that out AWwrgwy and thx saxman for posting that info.
I believe that most people have diffrent view when looking at the flags like S.C. and Georgia. Some thing of "slavery" or "American Civil War". Other may not think nothing of that kind. I dont know.
How do you think the Cheyenne and Arapaho Indians view the American flag when U.S. troops rode in on there camp and massacre over 400 man, women and children in 1864. The troops even shot Chief Black Kettle who was trying to raised the American flag as a signed that the camp is not a hostile camp. What dose this have to do with the topice, the flag. Both in 1864 and present American flags are diffrent by number of stars and strips, but still the same country.
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If we actually taught history (or many other subjects) without being worried about applying "PC" standards, offending people, or upsetting the falsehoods that people have found comfort with, we'd have a lot more enlightened populace. But then again, we are talking about government schools...
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Studying the buildup to the Civil War in more detail pretty much changed my view on many things in politics and life.
Unfortunately (well, let's face it, it's our own fault), this isn't really the forum for discussing this kind of thing any more. I will say, however, that it's weird living in a country where one side says, "WE WANT to live this way," and another side says, "YOU MUST live this way," and the latter gets to be the "good guys."
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It's not about the Confederate Flag or the Civil War per se but about said symbols being coopted by racists such as the KKK in opposition to minority rights. Conversely, the arguments always are like the above where it's, "what's wrong with the South during the Civil War.... Southern Pride...." etc. Has nothing to do with it. It's about racism or perceived racism.
wrongway
Yup KKK, NAACP, and the likes of ACORN...... we don't need any of these racist groups around anymore.
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Then the people should take the flag back instead of for all eternity cementing its symbolic value to these racist groups. If a racist group started using the Stars and Stripes as their banner should the country change its flag?
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+1
Studying the buildup to the Civil War in more detail pretty much changed my view on many things in politics and life.
Unfortunately (well, let's face it, it's our own fault), this isn't really the forum for discussing this kind of thing any more. I will say, however, that it's weird living in a country where one side says, "WE WANT to live this way," and another side says, "YOU MUST live this way," and the latter gets to be the "good guys."
How so? What does the hindering of slavery advancing to other states, have to do with "life" today?
The House Divided Speech, The Fugitive Slave Act and any others. The economic pitfalls of the South were of their own doing. If I'm not mistaken South Carolina, Mississippi, Georgia and Texas cited the threat to slaveholders’ rights as the cause of, or a major cause of, secession.
Let's not forget the 1854 Ostend Manifesto which was an unsuccessful Southern attempt to annex Cuba as a slave state. This after meeting with Spain about purchasing Cuba, then if not granted the annexation, would Declare War on Spain (over Slavery).
This is directed at some of the incorrect comments in this thread that "History is written by the victors." That is horse hockey. The Civil War always comes back to one issue because it is FACT. Jefferson Davis' quotes are nothing but a bitter man, who along with others wanted to get more rope than they already had.
If people cannot post intelligent prose, without resorting to attacks and cussing. Why shouldn't this be allowed to be discussed? But the fact remains Slavery was the crux of the American Civil War and rightly so.
No "heritage" disambiguation is needed, that is the lamest excuse one can use.
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The Civil War was fought over the two principles of States rights vs. Federal authority. The pivotal issue was slavery, but the principle was State vs. Federation, or more to the point, Confederacy vs. Union.
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The Civil War was fought over the two principles of States rights vs. Federal authority. The pivotal issue was slavery, but the principle was State vs. Federation, or more to the point, Confederacy vs. Union.
Spin it anyway you wish. :x
You're wrong though. Read up on the Ostend Manifesto. It negates your "basis". Why? Because a President of the United States backed it.
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It is not spin. It is fact.
The Southern States wanted to leave the Union over the issue of slavery. The Federal Union refused to allow the Southern States to secede. By definition, the difference between a confederation and a federation is that the membership of the member states in a confederation is voluntary, while the membership in a federation is not.
The reason they wanted to secede was slavery, but the war was fought over their rights to secede.
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How so? What does the hindering of slavery advancing to other states, have to do with "life" today?
This is thin ice, so it's probably better to do this via PM if you would like.
Suffice to say, after my studies, I've started to look at abortion, gay rights, affirmative action, gun control, [insert hot button issue here] in a different light.
Basically, I couldn't care what Texas does so long as they don't try to impose their will on Connecticut. To me at least, the Confederate flags (really, the "Don't Tread on Me" flag more so) symbolize that train of thought. I don't think of racism or slavery when I see them these days, whereas I did before I took a closer look.
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It is not spin. It is fact.
The Southern States wanted to leave the Union over the issue of slavery. The Federal Union refused to allow the Southern States to secede. By definition, the difference between a confederation and a federation is that the membership of the member states in a confederation is voluntary, while the membership in a federation is not.
The reason they wanted to secede was slavery, but the war was fought over their rights to secede.
Slavery. You're welcome.
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I also said earlier:
The pivotal issue was slavery...
Not that you noticed...
However, the reason for secession is not important; it could just as well have been a number of other strongly felt issues. The reason the war was fought was over States Rights and their legal right to secede from the Union.
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Spin it anyway you wish. :x
You're wrong though. Read up on the Ostend Manifesto. It negates your "basis". Why? Because a President of the United States backed it.
While doing so, maybe check out the Albany Plan of Union, the Virginia & Kentucky Resolutions, the Hartford Convention, etc., etc., etc.
I think knocking everything down to slavery is sidestepping some major moments in U.S. History. The issue of State v. Federal Sovereignty was going on long before the Civil War...
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Seems this thread is heading the wrong direction. Even though it is old politics, it is still politics.
Just a warning right now.
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I agree, Skuzzy. No sense discussing it, no one will ever "win" that argument.
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Nobody really knows why the the states fought. There are many theories with in the historians community.
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See Rule #14