Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: trigger2 on July 15, 2009, 06:13:32 PM

Title: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: trigger2 on July 15, 2009, 06:13:32 PM
So, for short landings IRL you want to, after wheels are down, bring your flaps back up which adds weight/friction to your wheels (less lift) which maximizes your breaking and allows you to bring your aircraft to a stop sooner. My question (now that all that backstory is done) is in AHII, does using this tactic minimize your stopping distance, does it have no effect, or does it have a reverse effect?
Inquiring minds are curious. ;)

~Trigger
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Lusche on July 15, 2009, 06:14:41 PM
To mimimize stopping distance, leave gear up.  :)
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: trigger2 on July 15, 2009, 06:17:51 PM
Quote from: Lusche on July 15, 2009, 06:14:41 PM
To mimimize stopping distance, leave gear up.  :)

The only issue there is it makes getting the scrap metal a little more challenging as it's all tangled together. ;)
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Golfer on July 15, 2009, 06:18:25 PM
Short answer:

It depends on the airplane.
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Ratpack1 on July 15, 2009, 06:18:33 PM
Once you apply the brakes it doesn't really matter
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Dragon on July 15, 2009, 06:19:26 PM
I tend to have a longer stopping distance landing with flaps down in my favorite JUG, so I leave them up.

Quote from: Lusche on July 15, 2009, 06:14:41 PM
To mimimize stopping distance, leave gear up.  :)

 :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 15, 2009, 06:43:44 PM
Quote from: Lusche on July 15, 2009, 06:14:41 PM
To mimimize stopping distance, leave gear up.  :)

Yep, great for landing short under fire with a vulcher diving in on you.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: uptown on July 15, 2009, 06:44:15 PM
Landing!? well thats just crazy talk!  :P
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: CAP1 on July 15, 2009, 11:24:33 PM
Quote from: trigger2 on July 15, 2009, 06:13:32 PM
So, for short landings IRL you want to, after wheels are down, bring your flaps back up which adds weight/friction to your wheels (less lift) which maximizes your breaking and allows you to bring your aircraft to a stop sooner. My question (now that all that backstory is done) is in AHII, does using this tactic minimize your stopping distance, does it have no effect, or does it have a reverse effect?
Inquiring minds are curious. ;)

~Trigger

it seems to work for me in the p38. but if you want a short landing, you can also make your aimpoint closer......and watch your speed on short final.  :noid
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: AirFlyer on July 15, 2009, 11:31:25 PM
For short landings I've always been a fan of the nose slide style. Requires gear down and an extra 5 perks if you .ef standing on your nose yet.
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: trigger2 on July 16, 2009, 12:01:54 AM
Quote from: CAP1 on July 15, 2009, 11:24:33 PM
it seems to work for me in the p38. but if you want a short landing, you can also make your aimpoint closer......and watch your speed on short final.  :noid

Nah, I can make a pretty short stop, I'm just wondering if they physics in here allow for the flaps up to work, or what. Golfer says it depends, so I'll just go with that...
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: CAP1 on July 16, 2009, 12:09:11 AM
Quote from: trigger2 on July 16, 2009, 12:01:54 AM
Nah, I can make a pretty short stop, I'm just wondering if they physics in here allow for the flaps up to work, or what. Golfer says it depends, so I'll just go with that...

i'd imagine he's right. like i said, it works for me in the 38j. i've never tried it in anything else.
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: BaldEagl on July 16, 2009, 12:38:04 AM
Quote from: AirFlyer on July 15, 2009, 11:31:25 PM
For short landings I've always been a fan of the nose slide style. Requires gear down and an extra 5 perks if you .ef standing on your nose yet.

I can do that on demand in the F6F but every once in a while I flip all the way over.   :)
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Golfer on July 16, 2009, 12:46:51 AM
Quote from: trigger2 on July 16, 2009, 12:01:54 AM
Nah, I can make a pretty short stop, I'm just wondering if they physics in here allow for the flaps up to work, or what. Golfer says it depends, so I'll just go with that...

I'd like to clarify that it depends on the airplane when it comes to whether or not its going to react better to the weight on wheels assisting breaking.  Some might decelerate better with the drag from more flaps, spoilers or speed brakes.

In terms of in-game from my very much non scientific observations you can achieve better braking in some airplanes by raising the flaps.  Whether or not I'm seeing what I want to see in that perception is a question for HTC to determine if thats their intention in modeling.
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: AirFlyer on July 16, 2009, 01:02:53 AM
Quote from: BaldEagl on July 16, 2009, 12:38:04 AM
I can do that on demand in the F6F but every once in a while I flip all the way over.   :)

Always found it fairly easy to do in the A6M but that's just me.
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: froger on July 16, 2009, 01:25:39 AM
Quote from: uptown on July 15, 2009, 06:44:15 PM
Landing!? well thats just crazy talk!  :P

 :aok
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: usvi on July 16, 2009, 03:33:19 AM
Quote from: AirFlyer on July 16, 2009, 01:02:53 AM
Always found it fairly easy to do in the A6M but that's just me.
Does it put out the fire? :D
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Shuffler on July 16, 2009, 10:18:23 AM
When I require a short landing in my 38 I slow and drop flaps all the way down. I'll pull nose up till stall buzzer is going absolutely crazy right before touch down. Then I leave flaps down for more drag.  To even further reduce my roll out I will woggle slightly left and right, with brakes on, using rudder.

The woggle is used on RC planes to slow down as most of them have no brakes.
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: hitech on July 16, 2009, 10:40:14 AM
Short answer, yes weight on wheels will create more braking force.


Long Answer
double simgCalcWheelDragForce(simgSUSPENSION * Suspension,double DownForce,int SurfaceType)
{
double SlipDragCOF;
double RollingDragCOF;
double Drag;
simgWHEEL * Wheel;
Wheel = &Suspension->Wheel;
SlipDragCOF = sin(fabs(Wheel->ForceAOA));
if(SurfaceType == simgST_WATER)// || SurfaceType == simgST_BEACH)
{
RollingDragCOF = 2.0;
}
else
{
RollingDragCOF = (Wheel->BrakePercentage * Wheel->MaxBreakCOF) +
  (Wheel->RollingFrictionCOF );
}

Drag = (RollingDragCOF + SlipDragCOF) * DownForce;
return Drag;
}
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: CAP1 on July 16, 2009, 10:55:32 AM
Quote from: Shuffler on July 16, 2009, 10:18:23 AM
When I require a short landing in my 38 I slow and drop flaps all the way down. I'll pull nose up till stall buzzer is going absolutely crazy right before touch down. Then I leave flaps down for more drag.  To even further reduce my roll out I will woggle slightly left and right, with brakes on, using rudder.

The woggle is used on RC planes to slow down as most of them have no brakes.

that's why i like having a grass runway at our r/c club. even my 80" p51 is stopped well under 1/2 way on the runway.......our runway is in the ballpark of 500ft.
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: allaire on July 16, 2009, 05:43:02 PM
Quote from: Lusche on July 15, 2009, 06:14:41 PM
To mimimize stopping distance, leave gear up.  :)

Quote from: Ack-Ack on July 15, 2009, 06:43:44 PM
Yep, great for landing short under fire with a vulcher diving in on you.


ack-ack

I've done the belly slide from vulchers into the hanger where you choose you plane to survive.
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: uptown on July 16, 2009, 06:08:00 PM
Quote from: hitech on July 16, 2009, 10:40:14 AM



Long Answer
double simgCalcWheelDragForce(simgSUSPENSION * Suspension,double DownForce,int SurfaceType)
{
double SlipDragCOF;
double RollingDragCOF;
double Drag;
simgWHEEL * Wheel;
Wheel = &Suspension->Wheel;
SlipDragCOF = sin(fabs(Wheel->ForceAOA));
if(SurfaceType == simgST_WATER)// || SurfaceType == simgST_BEACH)
{
RollingDragCOF = 2.0;
}
else
{
RollingDragCOF = (Wheel->BrakePercentage * Wheel->MaxBreakCOF) +
  (Wheel->RollingFrictionCOF );
}

Drag = (RollingDragCOF + SlipDragCOF) * DownForce;
return Drag;
}

Yeah that's what I was going to say :lol
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Dragon on July 16, 2009, 06:13:40 PM
Quote from: uptown on July 16, 2009, 06:08:00 PM
Yeah that's what I was going to say :lol

I didn't think The Amish were allowed to learn or read COAD.  :uhoh
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: trigger2 on July 16, 2009, 11:29:48 PM
Quote from: hitech on July 16, 2009, 10:40:14 AM
Short answer, yes weight on wheels will create more braking force.


Long Answer
double simgCalcWheelDragForce(simgSUSPENSION * Suspension,double DownForce,int SurfaceType)
{
double SlipDragCOF;
double RollingDragCOF;
double Drag;
simgWHEEL * Wheel;
Wheel = &Suspension->Wheel;
SlipDragCOF = sin(fabs(Wheel->ForceAOA));
if(SurfaceType == simgST_WATER)// || SurfaceType == simgST_BEACH)
{
RollingDragCOF = 2.0;
}
else
{
RollingDragCOF = (Wheel->BrakePercentage * Wheel->MaxBreakCOF) +
  (Wheel->RollingFrictionCOF );
}

Drag = (RollingDragCOF + SlipDragCOF) * DownForce;
return Drag;
}

Thanks!
Code looks like C#. Except it looks like a variable was declared (int SurfaceType) when you started your loop... o.O :)
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: StokesAk on July 16, 2009, 11:44:46 PM
I like to go nose down onto the BH and scrape off it then crash onto the pavement :) But thats just me.
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Hopper on July 17, 2009, 12:32:26 AM
Quote from: hitech on July 16, 2009, 10:40:14 AM
Short answer, yes weight on wheels will create more braking force.


Long Answer
double simgCalcWheelDragForce(simgSUSPENSION * Suspension,double DownForce,int SurfaceType)
{
double SlipDragCOF;
double RollingDragCOF;
double Drag;
simgWHEEL * Wheel;
Wheel = &Suspension->Wheel;
SlipDragCOF = sin(fabs(Wheel->ForceAOA));
if(SurfaceType == simgST_WATER)// || SurfaceType == simgST_BEACH)
{
RollingDragCOF = 2.0;
}
else
{
RollingDragCOF = (Wheel->BrakePercentage * Wheel->MaxBreakCOF) +
  (Wheel->RollingFrictionCOF );
}

Drag = (RollingDragCOF + SlipDragCOF) * DownForce;
return Drag;
}


What is this hieroglyphics!
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: Sunka on July 17, 2009, 01:17:55 AM
I do this often on CV'S to stop my p51 faster.





Quote from: Lusche on July 15, 2009, 06:14:41 PM
To mimimize stopping distance, leave gear up.  :)
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: SlapShot on July 17, 2009, 10:59:32 AM
I never use flaps ... nor gear for that matter ... :D
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: KayBayRay on July 17, 2009, 01:04:07 PM
I find that in birds that have multiple notches of flaps that 2 notches down with engine cut gliding on final works well on my approach. I stick to a standard glide path on descent working to be just barely above stall speed as I am nearing the end of the runway (stall alarm should be sounding intermittentantly). For most birds I drop my gear as I am nearing the end of the runway and standard flare before contact. This further reduces my air/ground speed. Usually stop rolling within a few seconds of touchdown regardless of the bird.

As opposed to RL landings where I like to have a bit higher velocity to deal with shear and runway anomalies. Not all runways are Flat and Level I like to have some control and options. Plus a "Hard" landing in RL costs $$.

Later,
KayBay
Title: Re: Question about flaps on landing.
Post by: RTHolmes on July 18, 2009, 07:57:41 AM
I usually pull them up when wheels down to stop the aircraft lifting again when I pull back to lock the tailwheel. some aircraft just cant wait to get airbourne again :)

been wondering about the suspension class, it seems like the 190 suspension has hardly any damping at all - did they really bounce that badly on hardened rws IRL?