Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Krusty on July 19, 2009, 02:30:25 AM
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Been on my list for a loooong time. I've given up on most of the other skins I've "called dibs" on due to no free time, but this little guy I'm going to attempt.
85FS, 79FG, Erwin Silsbee's P-40L (Merlin powered, but similar to the power/climb curves on AH's P-40E). According to a blurb from his son, he got bored in Italy and found some paint ("took" some paint) from a depot shed or something and painted his fuselage green.
He wanted better camouflage when making attack runs in steep Italian ravines.
It's rough for now, but just to mark out some colors:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/71sqn/p40e_85fs_1.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/71sqn/p40e_85fs_2.jpg)
I went with nonstandard green, and I think I have the browns down correctly (give or take), but there are a few things I don't know.
- did the green wrap under?
- Was any more of the canopy frame black? Rear windows? Windscreen?
- Anyone have a good upper camo reference? I was eyeballing it based on super-lo-res decal sheet scans.
EDIT: Yes, I forgot to add the "bar and outline" to the under-wing star... not sure if I even can, as a mater of fact...
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That looks great Krusty. The camo looks ncie.
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I love it...would fly that skin everytime!
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:aok
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Great Job. Can you make it a little more dirty?
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- did the green wrap under?
I'm no expert on the P40, however if I were you I'd cut it off right before it wraps (and if the P40 is like other skins, starts to stretch) under the fuselage--- otherwise it looks kind of funky around where it has to merge with the undersurface color on the wings.
Also, just a suggestion, considering he painted it himself, perhaps you should slap a little bit on the roots of the horizontal stabs and the upper wings, if not only for the sake of giving the idea of a bit of a sloppy paint job, to kind of soften the very... I don't know how to say this, 'hard on the eyes', sudden merge between the browns and then the green.
Just some things I noticed, it looks great.
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Motherland, I don't have specific resources, but his son built a model plane of his father's P-40L mount, but at a later time. He kept painting it, and it changed over time. Eventually it was all-green with the group emblem on the intake side. However, the undersides on the son's model were left as-is, and if he was privvy to all the notes and details (as he says he was) I'd assume he got that part right.
So I went with grey undersides.
I too felt the color change was a bit harsh, but it was just a mockup to test things out.
Let me know if you think these are softer on the ol'e peepers!
Pretty near done. Going to give it a week and then another once-over (and any suggestions here I think are good) and then I'll submit it.
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/shots/p40e_85fs_4.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/shots/p40e_85fs_5.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/shots/p40e_85fs_7.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/shots/p40e_85fs_8.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/shots/p40e_85fs_9.jpg)
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Motherland, I don't have specific resources, but his son built a model plane of his father's P-40L mount, but at a later time. He kept painting it, and it changed over time. Eventually it was all-green with the group emblem on the intake side. However, the undersides on the son's model were left as-is, and if he was privvy to all the notes and details (as he says he was) I'd assume he got that part right.
So I went with grey undersides.
Sorry if I verbalized that poorly, but that's what I meant. It looks great :aok
Although, the undersurface color looks a bit weird, purple almost? I don't know if that would be correct though.
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You have photos Krusty? Didn't see that one in the 79th history. Did it get OK'd to skin Merlin Ls on to Allison E models?
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You can't adjust the specularity on the early models can you? If you could, I'd suggest making the finish a lot flatter. I'd also get rid of the gun soot, but that's simply my opinion. I like the skin if its historical--very unique. It needs a little weathering though to dirty it up a bit--again, my opinion.
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You can't adjust the specularity on the early models can you? If you could, I'd suggest making the finish a lot flatter.
Unfortunately, you can't :(
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That's with the default B-25 "materials.txt" -- just doesn't kick in without being designed to use it. Only new models use it.
Guppy: No photo per se, but reliable enough that multiple decals have been issued for it over time for plastic models, most notably a recent release (re-release?) by AMTech. I'm not too worried about its historic existence. Other planes from the same unit also seemed to have lax censorship about painting, one with a full sized nude taking up the entire rudder. If you run across any photos I would love to see them (to see if I got the skin right).
Motherland: It's RAF "Azure Blue", rather than light grey. The upper sides of tan/brown camo are RAF color tones, so I chose the RAF undersides color that went with those tones, as well as an RAF green (assuming they were stocked with RAF paints at whatever base Erwin Silsbee was stationed) to do the fuselage. I'm not 100% happy with the green tone. I may lighten it up a tad.
EDIT: Just as a thought on what I'll tweak in a week's time, I think I'll desaturate the colors juuuuuust a tad. I think that'll help lose some of the "bitmap" feel I can't shake.
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Cool paint scheme. I think the colours used would depend on where the aircraft was last painted. I know that the RAF received it's P-40s originally painted by Curtiss in the DuPont equivalent desert colours which were slightly different from the RAF ones. How it appeared in the field would depend on whether or not it was still using a factory paint job and who was supplying the paint to the squadron or local maintenance unit.
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That info I did not have. I could not find the equivelant colors in US paints, so I used the RAF names and found them. Assuming the US had the same colors of paint under whatever name was given, I just used the RAF label to find the samples I needed.
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Couple things Krusty.
Did you check about skinning an Merlin P40L on an Allision P40E? Kinda like putting Griffon Spit XII markings on a Merlin Spit 16. Different birds even if performance is similar.
Regardless of that.
The later blue surround to the star and bar wouldn't have been coupled with the yellow surround to the fuselage star. The yellow surround was an Operation Torch marking. By Italy time you are talking either red surround to the star and bar or blue after that. I don't see any photos in the 79th history or any of my P40 stuff showing that combo or markings. Check the scale on your Star and Bar on the wing too. It looks off. Too big, and the blue outline to the bar too thin
The majority of photos of 79th P40s show the squadron marking on each side of the nose under the stacks. Photos of 85th FS P40s show the Flying Skulls squadron badge in that spot.
An example of the standard practice on 85th P40s
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/85th.jpg)
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Turned up this profile in the old Kenn Rust 9th AF history. Interesting that the codes are the same. No other info or a supporting photo, but it might be the serial of your particular bird.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/X60.jpg)
A couple examples of the x6 on the fuselage as well as the skulls symbol on the nose and one showing the star and bar on the wing.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Skulls.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/X6Bird.jpg)
Note there is no yellow surround on the birds without the star and bar.
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May be an earlier ride of his. Apparently he flew just about half the planes in the US arsenal, and most of the P-40 models.
Interesting resource I found after I decided I wanted to skin it:
http://www.p40warhawk.com/Models/Builds/TomSilsbee/P-40L/P-40L.htm
Comments from his son, but scroll down and you'll see his types flown list. Seems he had a lot of time in P-47s as well.
EDIT: I'm not sure if I should add the tail code, though. AMTech decals don't have it, nor do a couple of other model builds, and some color profiles online. I know, I know, not conclusive evidence, but still an abundance of circumstantial. Since he painted the green himself, I was wondering if he painted over it. If he was painting, would he not have covered the RAF fin flash, no longer needed?
EDIT: Oops, I forgot to answer your question: Yes I'm pretty sure they'll accept Merlin powered P-40s on the -E ingame. Most of them up to the -N were pretty similar. Also our -E has the power curve of a later model (I want to say P-40K, but cannot recall) anyways. They may have tighter rules/more scrutiny once the P-40s are remodeled, but for now it's a frankenstein.
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I seem to remember that P40Ns were'nt ok to skin so I'd ask first. There were some nice bare metal N models etc that couldn't be done.
Well 'eck! The model on that page shows the squadron markings for the 86th FS, 79th FG Flying Commanches not the 85th.
I'd really think you should have some photo evidence to back that one up.
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Oh, Crap! You're right, I made a mistake in my original post! I rechecked and the plane I would like to skin is 86th FG. Not 85th. All those numbers kind of run together for me in the "name" drop box, so I never noticed my typo.
Description I copied from a review of the AMTech kit I mentioned earlier:
"The second plane is a P-40L-5-CU flown by 2Lt Erwin R. Silsbee of the 86th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter Group out of Italy in early 1944. This plane includes 2 different paint schemes. The first plane includes 2 Swastika kill symbols and the name Veronica under the canopy. Colors are dark green on the fuselage and desert colors on the wings. The second has nose art of a charging Native American Warrior. This plane was painted in Desert camo colors."
I definitely would love to see some photos of it, but don't have any, and can't find any online (despite a lot of searching).
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it wont' let me post a link for some reason...
[EDIT, let's try for the 12th time in a row]
While I did not find a photo of the plane in question, I did run across another from the same time, also stationed in Italy, that also overpainted the brown/brown with more green.
(http://www.ww2color.com/Galley%2012/images/06400.jpg)
ww2incolor wasn't very helpful overall, but I thought this pic was cool.
EDIT2: for frak's sake.. the forum DIES anytime I try to post the webpage link to ww2incolor. Wth??
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While I did not find a photo of the plane in question, I did run across another from the same time, also stationed in Italy, that also overpainted the brown/brown with more green.
(http://www.ww2color.com/Galley%2012/images/06400.jpg)
ww2incolor wasn't very helpful overall, but I thought this pic was cool.
Here's the link for the page (http://www.ww2color.com/search/webapps/slides/slides.php?action=update&primary_key=06400)
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forums going all apesh** on me for some reason, past 20 minutes....
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I don't doubt the green touch up job. But the markings are a mismatch at best. Note that the star and bar on the image you posted is outlined in blue. The yellow surround to the star and circle was long before this, with the red surround to the star and bar between it.
Just wish there was some photo back up.
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I'm not 100% on the dates for the different outlines, but it also seems funny to me that these planes are in USAAF units with American pilots, using RAF paint schemes, and still carrying the fin flash in RAF colors while sporting US stars.
That did stick out at me.
I may hold off on submitting it, but lacking any further thoughts on how to correct it, I dunno how long that'd last (indefinitely? goes against my skinning style).
Assuming the bars are correct, and the issue lies with the yellow ring around the star, I have 2 option:
1) leave the yellow. Is there any chance the yellow was just pilot preference on his own custom paint job? Maybe they were just slow in removing the yellow? I've noticed other plane profiles/decal sheets/skins in AH that are from almost the same time but with red instead of yellow.
2) remove the yellow. Assuming this is some sort of error on the part of the decals in question.... I did notice that the son's representation of his father's P-40 (at a later time) had red rings around it. I can't quite tell about the upper wings' star because of all the dust on the model obscuring the just-barely-visible-camo and the just-barely-visible-star.
Does it "fit" more if there are red outlines around both the wings' star and the fuselage's star? I could just play it safe and do the "later" version where it has the group badge on the intake, maybe?
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The yellow band around the star an circle was specific to one time frame. It was not pilot preference.
Emphasizing that this is only my opinion, but I would also be against skinning a Merlin P40 on an Allison version. Again, kinda like doing a Griffon Spit on a Merlin Spit. Not the same bird.
Do I wish we had a P40F or L? Yep. Those Merlin birds covered a lot of USAAF MTO turf. I'd like a P40N too.
I'd also want to see some sort of photo evidence to back that one up as it is such a hodgepodge of markings.
Using Decals as a reference gets dangerous as the mistakes made over the years by decal makers is endless. I could give you numerous examples from very good decal makers. Again without photo back up, I'd hesitate.
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I've seen first-hand the inaccuracies in decal sheets. I know where you're coming from.
As for merlins on allison, the AH P-40E is modeled off a P-40K power curve. The real P-40E had no WEP. It more closely matches this skin, than it does a true P-40E skin.
On top of that, there was very little difference in the P-40 models up to the N. Even some of those were reinforced for ground attack work and lost what little edge they had.
The speeds were very close, the climb very similar, the only difference being the FTH was a few thousand feet higher (something on the order of 17 or 18k, vs the 15k allison). Even P-40 pilots found little difference in the capabilities.
I have no qualms over putting this model skin on this model in-game. My qualms revolve more around getting it right, trying not to put an inaccurate skin in the game. Some of my skins in the past haven't been 100%, and until I go back and redo some of them I don't want to add any more that I'll regret at a later time.
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The paint scheme on this baby is such a mish mash I think I love it.
I did ask Skuzzy long ago specifically about skinning a P-40F scheme onto the '40E, and he told me not to do it at that time. Now, maybe HTC's stance has softened on that since the P-40E will sooner or later be redone anyway. Might be worth checking with him though.
I really hope they introduce an F or L and the N too when they re-do the 40 series.
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We already have Ls and other models skinned and accepted in-game. "Stud" (black with checker tail) for example is a P-40L. RAAF flew a number of models post-E, and we have 2 skins from them in-game. The VVS used many models, and also changed out the engines for Soviet-built ones (so supplies were steady, not for a real performance boost per se), and we have 2 soviet skins in-game.
Also, my 68FS skin already in-game is a P-40F, and it has been accepted (yes, I pointed this out when I submitted the skin).
Apparently HTC doesn't mind too much for this particular plane (at least until the graphics are updated I'm guessing)
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So ask yourself then, how you'd react to someone submitting a P51A skin for example, skinned on the AH B/C.
Would you approve or question it?
If HTC is ok with it, go for it. I just figure there are enough actual 40Es out there that could be skinned. The lack of photo support also still remains an issue for me.
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Guppy, there was night and day difference between the P-51A and the P-51B. The differences between the Merlin and Allison P-40s were minimal. It did not perform anything like a spitfire or a mustang. They still had a single stage supercharger and still had the same low-alt performance curves. We're talking less than 10mph difference through most models.
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Like I said Krusty, if HTC is ok with it, go for it.
It's not up to me. If it was, I'd want more evidence to support the historical accuracy of the skin, and I'd wait and hope for an actual Merlin P40.
To me there is a world of difference between a Merlin 40 and an Allison 40.
That's my feedback. You asked :)
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RAAF flew a number of models post-E, and we have 2 skins from them in-game.
Not correct.
This plane was one I had posted in the forums & Rogerdee decided to do it. It is a E model.
(http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/125/skin15.th.jpg) (http://img364.imageshack.us/i/skin15.jpg/)
http://www.cybermodeler.com/history/meteor/cresswell.shtml
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Oh, snap! :uhoh
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(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/85th.jpg)
OMG Guppy... I drive by that plane every morning. It's not the actual plane, of course... but that's the scheme. "Stump Jumper", Hanscom AFB. :)
(http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/HanscomP40.jpg/425px-HanscomP40.jpg)
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Not correct.
This plane was one I had posted in the forums & Rogerdee decided to do it. It is a E model.
The Aussies flew a lot of Ls, Ms, Ns, as well as Es, was my point. Not trying to insinuate anything.
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This thread's been quiet because I've been doing a little more digging. I have an interest in getting it right. Now, I admit I don't always do that, but I try so the effort is there even if the end result is inaccurate in some small way.
I found somebody online that had a book with some pictures that may help. He scanned a couple.
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/71sqn/79fg_scan1.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/71sqn/79fg_scan2.jpg)
Now, from the 79 FG history I can gather, they didn't go operational until Mar 1943. They caught the tail end of North Africa, and then most of their time was serving in Sicily or Italy, and by Mar to Jun 1944 they were already transitioning to P-47s.
Looking at the first picture, that definitely looks like a yellow ring. I had to do some checking to verify the dates. 79th FG was stationed in Sicily around July-Sept 1943.
Looking at the second picture, that has to be January of 1944. It looks like there's a ring around it. Picture quality, film quality, makes it hard to determine if it's really red or yellow, however.
As a tying up of loose ends, I did find a reference to the short-tailed P-40F with the same codes, but the sand/brown camo. "P-40, Warhawk of 79FG, 86FS, serial number 41-14216, Curtiss P-40F Warhawk, plane was condemned May 26, 1943." That would be shortly after the 79th became operational. They would be flying mostly long-tails or later models, from pictures and profiles I've seen.
EDIT: oh, I wanted to note (but forgot) you can see the bar on the wing in the second photo, and it appears there's a ring around it. Doesn't look like there's a blue outline on the white bar, however.
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I would say the ring on the second aircraft is part of the camo pattern it is not a consistant round shape at all in appearance.
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Except for around the very top, it seems very uniform.
The problem is the photo is blown out there, along the upper spine. Can't tell if that's how the color actually looked, or just a "bloom" or bright spot from the way the photo was taken.
EDIT: It's possible this is a ring around it. To me it looks like that for sure. The color is the question for me.
That being said, it is possible they painted over the rings when they weren't used anymore, however the paint doesn't even closely match the camo around the star. I would think a similar shade would be used.
Like I said, I don't know the color of that particular one, be it yellow, or red, or sand/brown camo, but there's definitely something there.
Edit2: I keep forgetting to add things before hitting "send". Silsbee's "Veronica" is supposedly from early 44, so that's the time of the second picture. If we can figure out which color to make the ring, I'm all set.
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Krusty I have the 79th history. The Yellow ring is not from the Italy time frame, it's Tunisia/North Africa.
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I don't suppose it mentions if/when they adopted red rings later?
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sorry double post.
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Here's a thought is it possible this aircraft was first used by the RAF then handed over to the USAF or a another USAF unit? Reason I ask it looks like there is a ring of some type there, & it also seems strange right where the unit numbers are it looks to me like a spray over occurred then this squadron units numbers were applied. You can see all three digits that are visible & all look like they have had some work done on them.
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Don't think so. While they had RAF paint schemes, the US roundels fully cover RAF roundels, if they need be painted over. On top of that, I don't know WHY they used RAF colors (maybe they just worked well?) but 79th FG had their planes assembled and flew them in from North Africa. They were factory fresh, at least when things started. As they got later and newer models they were probably straight from the US of A.
It's more likely that they had the yellow ring from US markings at one time, and then painted over it themselves. That, or it's red. If it's red that might explain why it blends in more with the surrounding colors. Red pigment on B&W film can be funny sometimes.
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Sorry for the lack of responses... Did some more researching, did some more skinning, and in between got busy, but never gave up on this.
As in this photo of a plane from the same group and from the same month as my Silsbee skin:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/71sqn/79fg_scan2.jpg)
We can see for sure there has to be an outline around the stars and bars. On the fuselage, it could either be an outline or perhaps a painted over area of what used to be an outline.
However, we can see the wing, and there appears to be a faint outline (look closely, I can see it, it displaces the camo pattern) around the star and bar on top of the wing. It cannot be blue, as it is a very light pigment. There MUST be an outline around the white in the bars, but it isn't blue.
Given the time frame, given similar aircraft in the same theater with red outlines, given how red color can sometimes look very pale in black and white photos, as seen here: (for example)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/shots/P40Slick.jpg)
You can see how the red and white stripes on the tail are almost the same.
Given all of this info, and more, I have gone with red outlines. I'm 99.9% sure this is correct. As a coincidental note, it also matches the model his son built with "inside info" -- which had red outlines.
Added fin flash (seems like similar craft have them, so included it)
Desaturated the camo colors a bit, which ended up changing the shade of green (for the better?)
red outlines
resized upper star-and-bar to proper size/ratio
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/shots/p40e_85fs_10.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/shots/p40e_85fs_11.jpg)
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/shots/p40e_85fs_12.jpg)