Looking for a little feedback, P-40E skin

[Guppy35]

Turned up this profile in the old Kenn Rust 9th AF history.  Interesting that the codes are the same.  No other info or a supporting photo, but it might be the serial of your particular bird.


A couple examples of the x6 on the fuselage as well as the skulls symbol on the nose and one showing the star and bar on the wing.




Note there is no yellow surround on the birds without the star and bar.

[Krusty]

May be an earlier ride of his. Apparently he flew just about half the planes in the US arsenal, and most of the P-40 models.

Interesting resource I found after I decided I wanted to skin it:

http://www.p40warhawk.com/Models/Builds/TomSilsbee/P-40L/P-40L.htm

Comments from his son, but scroll down and you'll see his types flown list. Seems he had a lot of time in P-47s as well.


EDIT: I'm not sure if I should add the tail code, though. AMTech decals don't have it, nor do a couple of other model builds, and some color profiles online. I know, I know, not conclusive evidence, but still an abundance of circumstantial. Since he painted the green himself, I was wondering if he painted over it. If he was painting, would he not have covered the RAF fin flash, no longer needed?


EDIT: Oops, I forgot to answer your question: Yes I'm pretty sure they'll accept Merlin powered P-40s on the -E ingame. Most of them up to the -N were pretty similar. Also our -E has the power curve of a later model (I want to say P-40K, but cannot recall) anyways. They may have tighter rules/more scrutiny once the P-40s are remodeled, but for now it's a frankenstein.

[Guppy35]

I seem to remember that P40Ns were'nt ok to skin so I'd ask first.  There were some nice bare metal N models etc that couldn't be done.

Well 'eck!  The model on that page shows the squadron markings for the 86th FS, 79th FG Flying Commanches not the 85th.

I'd really think you should have some photo evidence to back that one up. 

[Krusty]

Oh, Crap! You're right, I made a mistake in my original post! I rechecked and the plane I would like to skin is 86th FG. Not 85th. All those numbers kind of run together for me in the "name" drop box, so I never noticed my typo.

Description I copied from a review of the AMTech kit I mentioned earlier:

"The second plane is a P-40L-5-CU flown by 2Lt Erwin R. Silsbee of the 86th Fighter Squadron, 79th Fighter Group out of Italy in early 1944.  This plane includes 2 different paint schemes.  The first plane includes 2 Swastika  kill symbols and the name Veronica under the canopy.  Colors are dark green on the fuselage and desert colors on the wings.  The second has nose art of a charging Native American Warrior.  This plane was painted in Desert camo colors."


I definitely would love to see some photos of it, but don't have any, and can't find any online (despite a lot of searching).

[Krusty]

it wont' let me post a link for some reason...

[EDIT, let's try for the 12th time in a row]

While I did not find a photo of the plane in question, I did run across another from the same time, also stationed in Italy, that also overpainted the brown/brown with more green.



ww2incolor wasn't very helpful overall, but I thought this pic was cool.

EDIT2: for frak's sake.. the forum DIES anytime I try to post the webpage link to ww2incolor. Wth??

[Krusty]

While I did not find a photo of the plane in question, I did run across another from the same time, also stationed in Italy, that also overpainted the brown/brown with more green.



ww2incolor wasn't very helpful overall, but I thought this pic was cool.

Here's the link for the page

[Krusty]

forums going all apesh** on me for some reason, past 20 minutes....

[Guppy35]

I don't doubt the green touch up job.  But the markings are a mismatch at best.  Note that the star and bar on the image you posted is outlined in blue.  The yellow surround to the star and circle was long before this, with the red surround to the star and bar between it.

Just wish there was some photo back up.

[Krusty]

I'm not 100% on the dates for the different outlines, but it also seems funny to me that these planes are in USAAF units with American pilots, using RAF paint schemes, and still carrying the fin flash in RAF colors while sporting US stars.

That did stick out at me.

I may hold off on submitting it, but lacking any further thoughts on how to correct it, I dunno how long that'd last (indefinitely? goes against my skinning style).

Assuming the bars are correct, and the issue lies with the yellow ring around the star, I have 2 option:

1) leave the yellow. Is there any chance the yellow was just pilot preference on his own custom paint job? Maybe they were just slow in removing the yellow? I've noticed other plane profiles/decal sheets/skins in AH that are from almost the same time but with red instead of yellow.

2) remove the yellow. Assuming this is some sort of error on the part of the decals in question.... I did notice that the son's representation of his father's P-40 (at a later time) had red rings around it. I can't quite tell about the upper wings' star because of all the dust on the model obscuring the just-barely-visible-camo and the just-barely-visible-star.

Does it "fit" more if there are red outlines around both the wings' star and the fuselage's star? I could just play it safe and do the "later" version where it has the group badge on the intake, maybe?

[Guppy35]

The yellow band around the star an circle was specific to one time frame.  It was not pilot preference. 

Emphasizing that this is only my opinion, but I would also be against skinning a Merlin P40 on an Allison version.  Again, kinda like doing a Griffon Spit on a Merlin Spit.  Not the same bird.

Do I wish we had a P40F or L?  Yep.  Those Merlin birds covered a lot of USAAF MTO turf.  I'd like a P40N too.

I'd also want to see some sort of photo evidence to back that one up as it is such a hodgepodge of markings.

Using Decals as a reference gets dangerous as the mistakes made over the years by decal makers is endless.  I could give you numerous examples from very good decal makers.  Again without photo back up, I'd hesitate.

[Krusty]

I've seen first-hand the inaccuracies in decal sheets. I know where you're coming from.

As for merlins on allison, the AH P-40E is modeled off a P-40K power curve. The real P-40E had no WEP. It more closely matches this skin, than it does a true P-40E skin.

On top of that, there was very little difference in the P-40 models up to the N. Even some of those were reinforced for ground attack work and lost what little edge they had.

The speeds were very close, the climb very similar, the only difference being the FTH was a few thousand feet higher (something on the order of 17 or 18k, vs the 15k allison). Even P-40 pilots found little difference in the capabilities.

I have no qualms over putting this model skin on this model in-game. My qualms revolve more around getting it right, trying not to put an inaccurate skin in the game. Some of my skins in the past haven't been 100%, and until I go back and redo some of them I don't want to add any more that I'll regret at a later time.

[oboe]

The paint scheme on this baby is such a mish mash I think I love it.   

I did ask Skuzzy long ago specifically about skinning a P-40F scheme onto the '40E, and he told me not to do it at that time.  Now, maybe HTC's stance has softened on that since the P-40E will sooner or later be redone anyway.    Might be worth checking with him though.

I really hope they introduce an F or L and the N too when they re-do the 40 series.

[Krusty]

We already have Ls and other models skinned and accepted in-game. "Stud" (black with checker tail) for example is a P-40L. RAAF flew a number of models post-E, and we have 2 skins from them in-game. The VVS used many models, and also changed out the engines for Soviet-built ones (so supplies were steady, not for a real performance boost per se), and we have 2 soviet skins in-game.

Also, my 68FS skin already in-game is a P-40F, and it has been accepted (yes, I pointed this out when I submitted the skin).

Apparently HTC doesn't mind too much for this particular plane (at least until the graphics are updated I'm guessing)

[Guppy35]

So ask yourself then, how you'd react to someone submitting a P51A skin for example, skinned on the AH B/C. 

Would you approve or question it?

If HTC is ok with it, go for it.    I just figure there are enough actual 40Es out there that could be skinned.  The lack of photo support also still remains an issue for me.

[Krusty]

Guppy, there was night and day difference between the P-51A and the P-51B. The differences between the Merlin and Allison P-40s were minimal. It did not perform anything like a spitfire or a mustang. They still had a single stage supercharger and still had the same low-alt performance curves. We're talking less than 10mph difference through most models.