Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Dream Child on July 21, 2009, 06:41:25 PM
-
So I'm down at THE US Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio, and what did I find there, but a non-mobile 4x20mm Germain antiaircraft gun platform. We see it in Aces High as the mobile version, known as the Wirbelwind. One thing I noticed, it has DETACHABLE clips, so it has to have someone remove the clips when they are empty and replace with full clips. Unlike the US shipboard quad 40mm's that could be continuously reloaded, the Wirbelwind cannot fire the specific gun during the reload process, or if the clip is empty. There were 2 re-loaders, one on each side of the gunner, each responsible for 2 guns. What I couldn't tell is how many rounds per clip, though they looked shorter than a 30 round AR-15 clip, and being 20mm shells, it looked like it might hold 20 rounds each if they were staggered, though it could have been less, especially if it weren't a staggered loaded clip, and I wasn't trying to confirm that at the time. Too bad I didn't take any pictures.
So, as this is the whishlist area, what I wish for is some realistic reload delay between clips in the Wirbelwind, to make it have a more realistic firing rate.
-
So I'm down at THE US Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio, and what did I find there, but a non-mobile 4x20mm Germain antiaircraft gun platform. We see it in Aces High as the mobile version, known as the Wirbelwind. One thing I noticed, it has DETACHABLE clips, so it has to have someone remove the clips when they are empty and replace with full clips. Unlike the US shipboard quad 40mm's that could be continuously reloaded, the Wirbelwind cannot fire the specific gun during the reload process, or if the clip is empty. There were 2 re-loaders, one on each side of the gunner, each responsible for 2 guns. What I couldn't tell is how many rounds per clip, though they looked shorter than a 30 round AR-15 clip, and being 20mm shells, it looked like it might hold 20 rounds each if they were staggered, though it could have been less, especially if it weren't a staggered loaded clip, and I wasn't trying to confirm that at the time. Too bad I didn't take any pictures.
So, as this is the whishlist area, what I wish for is some realistic reload delay between clips in the Wirbelwind, to make it have a more realistic firing rate.
This has been discussed before.
The Wirbelwind could fire it's guns in a sustained burst, but only by alternating the two banks, one firing at a time while the other bank of guns was reloaded.
We have many guns in the game that are fed by a magazine or a drum, but as far as I understand there exists no reloading mechanism at this point in time, so I don't know when (if) this will be fixed.
-
This has been discussed before.
The Wirbelwind could fire it's guns in a sustained burst, but only by alternating the two banks, one firing at a time while the other bank of guns was reloaded.
We have many guns in the game that are fed by a magazine or a drum, but as far as I understand there exists no reloading mechanism at this point in time, so I don't know when (if) this will be fixed.
This is really too bad, as there were major differences in the way the ground vehicle guns were loaded:
M-16 had 4 reels, 200 rounds each, so could fire 800 rounds without reloading. Don't know how long it took to change a reel, but I bet you didn't like it if aircraft were coming in during a reel change.
Shipboard quad 40mm (US ships) had a top feed that allowed continuous firing. (I'm sure there's a term for that type of reloading system, but don't know what it is.)
The Wirbelwind had detachable magazines, and they really weren't that big, so the effective firing rate would have been much lower than what we see in the game.
The .50 cal browning found on jeeps and such was belt fed out of a box, though I don't remember how many in a box. I think the .30 cal machine guns were similar.
-
This is really too bad, as there were major differences in the way the ground vehicle guns were loaded:
M-16 had 4 reels, 200 rounds each, so could fire 800 rounds without reloading. Don't know how long it took to change a reel, but I bet you didn't like it if aircraft were coming in during a reel change.
Shipboard quad 40mm (US ships) had a top feed that allowed continuous firing. (I'm sure there's a term for that type of reloading system, but don't know what it is.)
The Wirbelwind had detachable magazines, and they really weren't that big, so the effective firing rate would have been much lower than what we see in the game.
The .50 cal browning found on jeeps and such was belt fed out of a box, though I don't remember how many in a box. I think the .30 cal machine guns were similar.
We have aircraft guns like that in game, too.
The MG15s in the Ju 88 were fed by drums holding, IIRC 80 rounds each.
I've been told that the MG/FF's in the Bf 110 were drum fed as well, and had to be reloaded every 60 rounds, I don't remember if this was a job for the pilot or the gunner, though.
-
We have aircraft guns like that in game, too.
The MG15s in the Ju 88 were fed by drums holding, IIRC 80 rounds each.
I've been told that the MG/FF's in the Bf 110 were drum fed as well, and had to be reloaded every 60 rounds, I don't remember if this was a job for the pilot or the gunner, though.
I would really like to see some sort of slower rate of fire as appropriate. In the Wirbelwind's case, assuming a 20 round clip, you would have to start reloading after only 40 rounds are spent to sustain 1/2 total fire rate, unless you want to run out of ammo and have 0 rate of fire during the reload process. I'm having a tough time believing you could even sustain 2 cannon, based on the firing rate shown in the game. Two loaders would each have to be able to change 2 clips in about 2 or 3 seconds to sustain 2 cannons firing. While I don't want to get too realistic, like having the gunner select the set of cannon he's firing, perhaps doing something like allowing 1 second of full fire rate followed by 1/2 fire rate until the trigger was released for 3 full seconds would be fair. While I don't want to model too much realism into the game, if a weapon clearly can't sustain the rate of fire in real life, it shouldn't here, either. The belt fed aircraft guns don't get to be faster than in real life, and neither should the other guns.
-
It's been asked for before, hopefully HTC will have something planned, and soon. Also like said the gun traverse is too fast.
-
It's been asked for before, hopefully HTC will have something planned, and soon. Also like said the gun traverse is too fast.
At the very least fix the gun traverse. IIRC there's also almost NO recoil in the WW (even though it's modeled in the Ostwind and M16) so aim is unrealistically accurate during sustained fire.
-
This is such a minor consideration when compared to the other updates needed with the GVs. Jeeps that do 70mph over open ground? Richochets, damage model, vehicle modeling in general..all been discussed and ignored.
-
This is such a minor consideration when compared to the other updates needed with the GVs. Jeeps that do 70mph over open ground? Richochets, damage model, vehicle modeling in general..all been discussed and ignored.
Wirble wind is now the most used base defence weapon (or so it seems) and it should be modeled right.
-
Armor modeling is IIRC the most complex thing in AH. The jeeps don't do over 70mph but just a couple miles over 60 (looks like it's 60mph gearing with the extra 2mph from bouncing off the rev limiter), and all GVs benefit from the same generously flat open ground so it's not just the jeep. The GV discussions probably haven't been ignored so much as left where they belong near the bottom of a really busy to-do list in a flight sim.
IMO that doesn't mean HTC don't welcome well thought out suggestions of where the GV modeling should go when it does happen. e.g. How to make the ground warfare more interesting.. How to work out open ground so that it's properly bumpy everywhere but on roads and fields... what new units would be most useful, and how to implement new functions (e.g. towed pieces).. etc.
-
...as left where they belong near the bottom of a really busy to-do list in a flight sim.
Moot Moot Moot, never thought I'd correct you on this...
WWII combat simulator
:D
-
...near the bottom of a really busy to-do list in a flight sim.
Never thought I'd correct Moot on this...
WWII Combat sim
:D
-
Wirble wind is now the most used base defence weapon (or so it seems) and it should be modeled right.
If it were modeled somewhat correctly, we might find the Osty to be more usefull, kinda like real life...
-
Anyone just jump in the Ostwind for its increased range knowing most aircraft wont tangle with WirbleWind?
Its fun killing low bombers that the WW cant touch.
-
GV modeling is off in this game..Jeeps, Wirblys etc. Most complex in AH? Doubtful. Given the growing popularity of GVs..a remodeling would be nice addition as well as a expanded GV list.
Kubelwagon
PzV
German Armoured car
SU 85/SU 100
KV1
Grant
Cromwell
Bishop
M 24
M 3 Stuart
Priest
-
Since the "uber-fake-wirb" was introduced into AH, it has claimed something on the order of 95% of all GV kills.
It's totally BS, in that any ping from any angle on any fighter/attack plane can kill or disable it (I've been brought down millions of times by lucky shots from Wirbs).
The issue at hand is the turret traverses way too fast, meaning a Wirb can attack one target, and with its super-faster-than-historical firing rate kill the target before it's released its bombs/ord, and then turn around in a full 180 and kill a second target before IT can kill the wirble either.
HTC needs to remove secondary fire, and just have the top guns fire for 20 rounds, then stop, and the bottom guns fire for 20 rounds. The end result is historical firing rates, and 1/2 as much BS instant-killing rounds in the air.
THEN they need to address the turret speed.
Firing rate is a high priority though. It's not about "this is low on the agenda for GVs" because it's a high impact on everything air-related, base-take related, rolling-to-enemy-fields-to-vulch-planes-on-runways related (and yes, many players do just that). It unbalances gameplay, IMO.
-
Never thought I'd correct Moot on this...
WWII Combat sim
:D
I stand corrected. :)
-
Since the "uber-fake-wirb" was introduced into AH, it has claimed something on the order of 95% of all GV kills.
It's totally BS, in that any ping from any angle on any fighter/attack plane can kill or disable it (I've been brought down millions of times by lucky shots from Wirbs).
The issue at hand is the turret traverses way too fast, meaning a Wirb can attack one target, and with its super-faster-than-historical firing rate kill the target before it's released its bombs/ord, and then turn around in a full 180 and kill a second target before IT can kill the wirble either.
HTC needs to remove secondary fire, and just have the top guns fire for 20 rounds, then stop, and the bottom guns fire for 20 rounds. The end result is historical firing rates, and 1/2 as much BS instant-killing rounds in the air.
THEN they need to address the turret speed.
Firing rate is a high priority though. It's not about "this is low on the agenda for GVs" because it's a high impact on everything air-related, base-take related, rolling-to-enemy-fields-to-vulch-planes-on-runways related (and yes, many players do just that). It unbalances gameplay, IMO.
After looking at one of the gun sets in real life, I'm not sure you could even maintain 2 guns firing. The reloads would have to happen in something like 3 seconds, and they would have to be continuous between the two guns the reloader was responsible for.
-
After looking at one of the gun sets in real life, I'm not sure you could even maintain 2 guns firing. The reloads would have to happen in something like 3 seconds, and they would have to be continuous between the two guns the reloader was responsible for.
With two trained loaders, the gunner could maintain 2 guns firing. Emptying a magazine of 20 rounds did take about 9 seconds, ample time for the loader to switch the other barrel's magazine.
That is, as long as there ammo at hand, which was limited: Only 320 rounds (=8 magazines) were stored in the turret itself, the rest in the vehicle body.
But I don't think this aspect will be coded in the near future. ;)
The turret rotation speed however would be easy to fix... :noid
-
With two trained loaders, the gunner could maintain 2 guns firing. Emptying a magazine of 20 rounds did take about 9 seconds, ample time for the loader to switch the other barrel's magazine.
That is, as long as there ammo at hand, which was limited: Only 320 rounds (=8 magazines) were stored in the turret itself, the rest in the vehicle body.
But I don't think this aspect will be coded in the near future. ;)
The turret rotation speed however would be easy to fix... :noid
At the very least it would make baiting with one plane while #2 hits from the opposite side a feasible strategy.
-
With two trained loaders, the gunner could maintain 2 guns firing. Emptying a magazine of 20 rounds did take about 9 seconds, ample time for the loader to switch the other barrel's magazine.
That is, as long as there ammo at hand, which was limited: Only 320 rounds (=8 magazines) were stored in the turret itself, the rest in the vehicle body.
But I don't think this aspect will be coded in the near future. ;)
The turret rotation speed however would be easy to fix... :noid
Well, lets do some math then. As modeled in AH, the Wirbelwind can fire all 3200 rounds in about 1 minute, 47 seconds (stopwatch said 1:46:75, so it's at least close), or 3200 rounds in 107 seconds. 3200 rounds divided by 107 seconds is 34.58 rounds per second for all 4 cannon. As there are 4 cannon, that means every cannon is shooting at 34.58/4, or 8.65 rounds per second. At 8.65 rounds per second, you will empty a 20 round clip in (20 rounds)/(8.65 rounds per second), or 2.31 seconds. That means either the reloader has to load a clip in 2.31 seconds, or, if you're correct about the 9 seconds to empty a clip, the cycle rate is equal to 80 rounds per 9 seconds for all 4 cannon (8.89 rounds per second for all 4), and the Wirbelwind guns in AH are cycling 4 times too fast.
If what you say is correct about firing rate, then the firing rate should be cut by 1/4 even before talking about the reloading issue, so effective firing rate should be 1/8 of what it is now.
-
Well, lets do some math then.
Good thing you did.. I simply did my math wrong :cry
However, it's still possible to change a mag in 2-3 seconds, as the loader was sitting right next to the gun with spare mags right at his hands.
Here's some footage of Flakvierling 38 (Wirbelwinds gun) in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2ekYgGfTWY&hl=de
short Wirbelwind clip:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6889510957903540822&ei=pKFnSqXwOdTM-AaozqFf&hl=de
-
o/t bit : 1'45" in the first vid shows brush camo.. How about that as perk loadout.. A choice from any of AH's greenery stuck onto GVs, in historical patterns.
-
...However, it's still possible to change a mag in 2-3 seconds, as the loader was sitting right next to the gun with spare mags right at his hands.
Any way you look at it, the firing rate, as modeled here, is too fast. If the loaders can realistically get the clips changed in less than 2.5 seconds, then at least cut the firing rate in half, each gun set alternating it's fire.
-
Any way you look at it, the firing rate, as modeled here, is too fast. If the loaders can realistically get the clips changed in less than 2.5 seconds, then at least cut the firing rate in half, each gun set alternating it's fire.
But as already pointed out, other weapons would/should suffere from loading times too, so you would have adjust code for everyone of them... that's why I don't see it to be changed in anyway soon.
-
But as already pointed out, other weapons would/should suffere from loading times too, so you would have adjust code for everyone of them... that's why I don't see it to be changed in anyway soon.
This is relatively few in number, and none near as blatant as the Wirbelwind, but if it's an unrealistic firing rate, it should be fixed.
-
Forget the Wirbly I want the two 90mm ack Gun I saw at Aberdeen. That should take down pesky flying machines!
-
Forget the Wirbly I want the two 90mm ack Gun I saw at Aberdeen. That should take down pesky flying machines!
By the Lords of Kobol, that is the size of a grapefruit! That is bigger than my fist! Are they explosive? If 20mm cannons make fist sized holes, what kind of holes would they make?
-
At the very least fix the gun traverse. IIRC there's also almost NO recoil in the WW (even though it's modeled in the Ostwind and M16) so aim is unrealistically accurate during sustained fire.
I am not really sure if that matters on that specific vehicle. Its only a 20mm, this calibre is called "Spatzen FlaK" (Sparrow FlaK, after the tiny bird) by german tankers/FlaKers until today, which is mounted on a fullsized tank chassis, which is rock solid compared to any vehicle on wheels/halftracks. 37mm has considerably more recoil than that also, which should answers the Ostwind question.
Regards
Matt
-
By the Lords of Kobol, that is the size of a grapefruit! That is bigger than my fist! Are they explosive? If 20mm cannons make fist sized holes, what kind of holes would they make?
I don't think grapefruits would make big holes in any aircraft. Then again, they might've stuffed 'em with explosives :D
-
The reason the whirble loads so fast is the German crew is on meth-amphetamine.
-
I am not really sure if that matters on that specific vehicle. Its only a 20mm, this calibre is called "Spatzen FlaK" (Sparrow FlaK, after the tiny bird) by german tankers/FlaKers until today, which is mounted on a fullsized tank chassis, which is rock solid compared to any vehicle on wheels/halftracks. 37mm has considerably more recoil than that also, which should answers the Ostwind question.
Regards
Matt
Keep in mind you still have FOUR of those guns all firing together.
-
The exact mechanics of the gun mounts needs to be considered before resuming recoil to the number of guns.
-
I don't mind the recoil, or lack of, I just want the fire rate to be realistic. I don't even care that the ammo on top was limited to 8 clips per side. Cut the fire rate down to two barrels at a time, or do some other correction, but get the fire rate realistic.
-
The turret speed might be a better first step towards a more realistic Wirbel.
-
In spring of 1944, the Inspector for the Panzer Troops (In 6) indicated that current flakpanzers in the Wehrmacht inventory were unsatisfactory, and that new vehicles should be developed with the following minimum requirements:
A rotating armored turret large enough to accommodate a three to four man crew.
A 2000m effective range
Twin guns
A sufficient ammunition supply
Maximum height, 3 meters
Full radio equipment on board.
The Wirbelwind design met most of these requirements. Vehicle height was kept low by recessing the gun mount into the top of the hull. The recess allowed for a smaller turret design and kept the overall vehicle height well under the 3 meter limit. Addition of a hydraulic traverse to the turret allowed a traversing speed of 60o/sec. A total of 3200 rounds for the four 2cm guns was carried (with storage for spare barrels provided on the sides of the engine compartment).
The Wirbelwind was developed as a conversion for Panzer IV chassis which had been returned from the front for rebuilding. Armored protection on the hull varied because the chassis used for conversion included Ausf F through Ausf G Panzerkampfwagen IV. As the 2cm Flakvierling was not as effective as the 3.7cm FlaK 43/1, the project was discontinued in autumn of 1944 after a total of 86 vehicles were converted.
Mogex
65th Fighting noodles
-
Just perk the dam thing.
-
Just perk the dam thing.
do you cry to perk anything that shoots you down? sure seems like it from my perspective.
ack-ack
-
do you cry to perk anything that shoots you down? sure seems like it from my perspective.
ack-ack
I only cry to perk the WW. Care less about the rest of the AC or GVs that kill me.
-
Sorry no need to perk HTC. You can move along. :aok
-
I only cry to perk the WW. Care less about the rest of the AC or GVs that kill me.
I see, it's the typical "Perk what I can't kill" philosophy that is all the rage with the unskilled masses.
ack-ack
-
Just perk the dam thing.
Doesn't need perked. Would like to see the fire rate put down to 2 guns at a time, as that's all it could realistically do anyways.
-
All this talk about perking the WW and limiting the rate of fire and so on. Why handicap the wirble even more than it already is? I dont see HTC codeing the Lancstukas and dive bombing B-24's and 17's to stop the divebombing. This is as gamey as it gets and has been an ongoing problem in the game for longer than the 5 years i been playin. Nerfing the wirble even more is rediculous just deal with it. If there needs to be any mods HTC should be stopping the retards in the DB heavy bombers.
-
All this talk about perking the WW and limiting the rate of fire and so on. Why handicap the wirble even more than it already is? I dont see HTC codeing the Lancstukas and dive bombing B-24's and 17's to stop the divebombing. This is as gamey as it gets and has been an ongoing problem in the game for longer than the 5 years i been playin. Nerfing the wirble even more is rediculous just deal with it. If there needs to be any mods HTC should be stopping the retards in the DB heavy bombers.
If you had read this entire discussion, you would see it's not a matter of handicapping, it's a matter of making it fire at a realistic rate. The WW used detachable 20 round magazines and had a re-loader on each side, so in real life it could sustain 2 cannon fire at best, but not 4 at a time like what we have here.
-
All this talk about perking the WW and limiting the rate of fire and so on. Why handicap the wirble even more than it already is? I dont see HTC codeing the Lancstukas and dive bombing B-24's and 17's to stop the divebombing. This is as gamey as it gets and has been an ongoing problem in the game for longer than the 5 years i been playin. Nerfing the wirble even more is rediculous just deal with it. If there needs to be any mods HTC should be stopping the retards in the DB heavy bombers.
I'm not so sure that the argument about "fixing" the wirby is about handi-capping it, but rather more about getting a more accurate model into the game. If the wirby in the real deal was not able to fire 3200 rounds of sustained fire, then why should it be able to here? The real deal had to worry about being reloaded via 15-20rd **magazines** (not "clips") per barrel, and not 800rd belts. If there is reason to believe, with some supportive evidence, that there was a delay in the firing process then I'd be willing to bet that there is a way that HTC could code into the wirby and Osty a delay of [insert number] of seconds after so many rounds are fired. For the Wirby, maybe it is 80 rounds and a 3 second pause.
I, like many others, just would like to see the model more true to the real thing. As it is (even though the traverse rate was reduced, do we know just how accurate it really is to the real thing?), we have an AA weapon that is able to fire a horrendous amount of lead into the air and far more than it was ever really able to do.
-
I see, it's the typical "Perk what I can't kill" philosophy that is all the rage with the unskilled masses.
ack-ack
OK, what ever.