Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SEraider on August 04, 2009, 01:54:20 PM
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Hi All,
My question is this: Is it feasible to have 1 refuling locale in the middle of the runway? Just for ease and efficiency?
The reason is that if you turn in at a wrong angle for refueling, you can't just kill your engine and have somebody push your plane out and away like in real life. We would just have to tower. Plus going to the end of the runway for refueling is 1) non-realistic in life 2) spend 2-4 minutes from touchdown to liftoff.
Mid-Runway refueling would be 1 minute process from touchdown to liftoff.
What do you guys think? If you guys like it I'll put it on the wishlist.
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I never heard of planes being serviced in the middle of the runway.
But why not having instant-refuel when flying over the field? Just for even better ease & efficiency...
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I never heard of planes being serviced in the middle of the runway.
But why not having instant-refuel when flying over the field? Just for even better ease & efficiency...
I never heard of planes being services at the end of the runways either, at least modern airfields.
Is your 2nd line mocking my idea or is that what you think?
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Why don't you just land 'long' on the runway? Problem solved.
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Why don't you just land 'long' on the runway? Problem solved.
I am not familiar with the phrase "long on the runway" please explain, thanks.
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Yup, either land on the far end of the runway, or land short in the grass right in front of the pumps.
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Yup, either land on the far end of the runway, or land short in the grass right in front of the pumps.
Oh I see. Have the refueling parameter box in the end of the runway. Good idea! +1
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refuel in the middle of the field!!! awesome, now i dont have to land short anymore!!
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Oh I see. Have the refueling parameter box in the end of the runway. Good idea! +1
You're joking, right?
Not in the end of the runway. Leave them where they are. Just change how you approach them.
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I just land on the taxiway leading up to 'em. Jeeze people. Concrete's concrete.
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You're joking, right?
Not in the end of the runway. Leave them where they are. Just change how you approach them.
What about end of the runways that have trees? I have not seen to many people land elsewhere other than the runway. Maybe some are different.
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I think his main issue is not WHERE the fuel depot is but the approach to it - if you come in at the wrong angle it is impossible to turn out of it without taking off a wing - your only option is to then "End sortie" - kinda negates the whole purpose of it. Would make sense to extend the entrance/exit apron to be on the sides rather from only one direction.
.....unless I missed seeing the "reverse" gear on the stick shift eh!!
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Most single engine fighters will almost swivel in place with a little rudder and differential braking. If I can go through a hanger, land, rearm and take back off in a minute you can figure it out.
FYI.........C and V keys are individual wheel brake keys.
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Should put the rearm pad near the main pad hangers. I would assume that would be the most realistic spot seeing how all the fuel and ammo was in the hangers, not at the end of the runway.
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Most airfields had designated fuel storage areas that were not near the parked planes. This is doubly true for ordnance at front line bases or areas subject to bombardment. Ammo (sometimes fuel) was often brought in by truck to the hanger or storage area.
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I know the CV is small platform however you land, refuel, lift hook and roll again. Pretty quick stuff.
I am just suggesting something similar to airfields.
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Strip it is probably true they didn't STORE the ammo and fuel next to parked aircraft but when it came to fueling and arming planes I thought that was always done in the hangers. And about the CV rearming its modeled that way because that how it happened on a carrier. They loaded the bombs on the flight deck.
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I've found that augering shortens my re-up time most efficiently.
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why not make it so that when you kill a enemy you get a fuel boost.....and ammo boost too!
Imagine being able to stay up flying all day on a single sortie :O
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still think moving the rearm pad to the main pad would solve the problem of getting a bad angle on it and crashing.
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still think moving the rearm pad to the main pad would solve the problem of getting a bad angle on it and crashing.
Or learning your aircraft controls better.
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still think moving the rearm pad to the main pad would solve the problem of getting a bad angle on it and crashing.
Ever thought about the possiblity that it's maybe even meant to require some tiny effort? I really mean tiny, because the only way to mess it up is to get really sloppy or lazy. Or just forgetting to use differential wheelbreaking
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Or learning your aircraft controls better.
yeah, or showing a bit of patience and actually taxiing around the thing.
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I don't have a problem getting on the rearm pad, never have. But some people can't get the hang off it. To help out a bit, and not have anything like instant rearms, moving the rearm pad would be the best bet. BUT while typing this i realized one thing that would stop this from happening. HTC would have to change the layout and coding for the airfields then everyone would have to redownload all the maps. Pretty impractical to help save time on rearming.
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yeah, or showing a bit of patience and actually taxiing around the thing.
And I though I was the only one who used the taxiways lol
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Jeepers man, ya don't even have to be all the way on the pad, and it still works...
Heck, awhile back, there was a bug, where you didn't even have to stop!!! You
could roll over the rearm spot, and roll back out on the runway, Take off, and
rearm would complete while you were 1000ft in the air... LOL!!!
Its too easy as it is!!!
RC
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Me wants a rearm pad at the V-base. (Pounds on chest) :x
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I just land on the taxiway leading up to 'em. Jeeze people. Concrete's concrete.
2 out of 3 times I'd agree... but some JOKER somewhere in TEXAS decided to put THE ONLY TREE in existence within the perimeter of the airfields in this game RIGHT NEXT TO the refueling depot.
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2 out of 3 times I'd agree... but some JOKER somewhere in TEXAS decided to put THE ONLY TREE in existence within the perimeter of the airfields in this game RIGHT NEXT TO the refueling depot.
Here in Texas we pull over and water those trees. The joker you speak of was looking out for your health when placing the tree where you could use it while your bird was being fueled and rearmed.
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Let's get a Duce and a half to pull up beside our airplane with 55 gallon drums and a hand pump and a couple of drunks to pump our fuel.
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Let's get a Duce and a half to pull up beside our airplane with 55 gallon drums and a hand pump and a couple of drunks to pump our fuel.
For you, they'd hand you a rubber hose and tell you to siphon. (Picture Telly Savalas in Battle of the Bulge with a mouthful of gas)
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Ya see, for me it's not landing, taxiing,or getting on/off re-arm pad. The problems start once I hit the throttle for takeoff. I wouldn't mind being able to reset the auto-takeoff. (always rip the wings off) :x
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If you don't have a rudder just engage auto-level. Just be sure to disengage it shortly afterward. Once you get some speed up it will crash. By then you you should be able to control the aircraft tho.
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Me wants a rearm pad at the V-base. (Pounds on chest) :x
I agree
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If you go on compatibility the only thing that would be available at a V-Base would be .303 and .50 caliber rounds. The fuel used by aircraft is far greater quality than that supplied to the vehicles. No reason for the V-Base to have A2G or A2A rockets, torpedoes or bombs either. The 37mm rounds in some planes I think are incompatible with the 37mm AA rounds. The Wirble might use the same 20mm ammunition as some of the German aircraft.
Otherwise your not going to find anything already there that justifies the legitimacy (or logic) of having a aircraft rearm pad at a V-Base. I do think a ground vehicle rearm pad is not a bad idea tho.
Strip
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The Wirble might use the same 20mm ammunition as some of the German aircraft.
No, it didn't.
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You are all joking, right? Or is the retarded thread of the day!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
I am assuming that everyone posting here can reasonably take off, land, merge, shoot, maneuver, bomb, and maybe fly in formation, and you can't taxi on and off the rearm pad?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
ROFLMFAO! Oh God, YOU'RE KILLIN' ME
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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touch down on the last 1/3 of the runway. come to stop by rearm pad. simple really. :salute
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Let's get a Duce and a half to pull up beside our airplane with 55 gallon drums and a hand pump and a couple of drunks to pump our fuel.
I'm not pumping your fuel! FORGET IT PAL! :mad:.............. :lol
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Ya see, for me it's not landing, taxiing,or getting on/off re-arm pad. The problems start once I hit the throttle for takeoff. I wouldn't mind being able to reset the auto-takeoff. (always rip the wings off) :x
Line up with the runway, hold the stick all the way back till you get some speed (locks the tail wheel which helps you go straight) then ease it forward and takeoff and climb like normal.
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I'm sure pilots in WWII would have loved driving to the end of the runway and re-fueling and re-arming in 30 seconds. I'd say we've got it pretty good as is.
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You are all joking, right? Or is the retarded thread of the day!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
I am assuming that everyone posting here can reasonably take off, land, merge, shoot, maneuver, bomb, and maybe fly in formation, and you can't taxi on and off the rearm pad?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
ROFLMFAO! Oh God, YOU'RE KILLIN' ME
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Go back to what grandma used to say is if you have nothing nice to say; don't say it at all. :uhoh
Since when discussing different ideas retarded? Or are you so miserably unoriginal and boring that you have to laugh at others to get off? Go home little man.
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If you put retarged request, expect retarded replies. :noid
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Lets get rid of the rearm pad totally. You want realism make it so you have to taxi back into or near the Hanger to reload. OOps I forgot this a game not a simulation sorry Hitech. :uhoh
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yeah, or showing a bit of patience and actually taxiing around the thing.
That's the word people have a hard time understanding in Aces High at times.
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...and don't forget that F3 works while on the ground, and that the F8 key lets you pan your view so you can get a nice high-six view to help you taxi. Depending on the bird you fly and how you fly it, you should be able to land at the near edge of the runway, stop and taxi to the refuel pad in under a minute.
For those who can't, or those who's birds fly fast for landing, just keep it airborne until after you cross the midway point of the runway and then touch down. You should be able to stop right at the end of the runway in front of the rearm pad.
And just to reiterate the brilliant observation stated earlier: Patience - get some or STFU. :D
This ain't rocket science, people.
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Lets get rid of the rearm pad totally. You want realism make it so you have to taxi back into or near the Hanger to reload.
That is a little what I am saying. Taxiing in this game really has no purpose. I can live with the taxiing and rearming but I think it is not necessary anymore.
It's like male nipples - we have them but they are of no practical use! :lol
I am just think being a little more practical might be ok in terms of refueling.
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I can't believe this went to a 4th page.
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That is a little what I am saying. Taxiing in this game really has no purpose. I can live with the taxiing and rearming but I think it is not necessary anymore.
It's like male nipples - we have them but they are of no practical use! :lol
I am just think being a little more practical might be ok in terms of refueling.
Which goes back to what I always say.... landing is overrated.
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Oh I see. Have the refueling parameter box in the end of the runway. Good idea! +1
Giving the vultures a visual aid?
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Taxi is as "useless" as a 30 second rearm delay.
Middle of the runway rearm would totally breach the semblance of WWII authentism that the MAs have already.
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Taxi is as "useless" as a 30 second rearm delay.
Middle of the runway rearm would totally breach the semblance of WWII authentism that the MAs have already.
... so your saying ummm it is a moot point?
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Hi All,
My question is this: Is it feasible to have 1 refuling locale in the middle of the runway? Just for ease and efficiency?
The reason is that if you turn in at a wrong angle for refueling, you can't just kill your engine and have somebody push your plane out and away like in real life. We would just have to tower. Plus going to the end of the runway for refueling is 1) non-realistic in life 2) spend 2-4 minutes from touchdown to liftoff.
Mid-Runway refueling would be 1 minute process from touchdown to liftoff.
What do you guys think? If you guys like it I'll put it on the wishlist.
refueling areas would never be near the middle of the field.
if you landed properly, you'd be almost stopped, and have less distance to turn around to the one on the end, than if you continued to one in the middle anyway.
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refueling areas would never be near the middle of the field.
if you landed properly, you'd be almost stopped, and have less distance to turn around to the one on the end, than if you continued to one in the middle anyway.
Thanks cap for the input. It was the most pleasant response yet. :lol
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Thanks cap for the input. It was the most pleasant response yet. :lol
I TRY TO BE NICE......
even if i'm being a little sarcastic.
i generally don't manage to land in such a state that rearming would do me any good..... :noid
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... so your saying ummm it is a moot point?
That joke only works when it really is a moot point. This one isn't... I mean, what exactly is the sense in putting a rearm pad in the middle of a patch of concrete where planes land? Can you imagine that in any conceivable real airfield? And do the bombers get anything out of this, or even heavy fighters? The only way this one makes sense is in the mind of a (with all due respect) gamer with no sense of the reality of flying planes. A few of this kind of idea would quickly make AH into something like Fighter Ace.
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Thanks cap for the input. It was the most pleasant response yet. :lol
My responses were fairly pleasant. But to keep with the only way that this thread could have gone:
How's about letting us fly through a special glowing brown power-up hanger for instant rearm, and glowing purple power-up hanger for instant refuel without the need to even touch the ground. This way if we still have plenty of fuel we can just get more ammo/bombs, or if we haven't fired a shot can just get more fuel.
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I know this is only me but even with the F3 view I still wreck my plane all too many times trying to use the rearm pads. I have virtually given up on this.
Be cool if there was a hot key to at least auto-drive my plane to the rearm pad (yes after 4+ years I still cannot fly well on land).
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Slade if you show me a film of an honest attempt at rearming safely, I'll help you fix it.
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I think his main issue is not WHERE the fuel depot is but the approach to it - if you come in at the wrong angle it is impossible to turn out of it without taking off a wing - your only option is to then "End sortie" - kinda negates the whole purpose of it. Would make sense to extend the entrance/exit apron to be on the sides rather from only one direction.
.....unless I missed seeing the "reverse" gear on the stick shift eh!!
Or he could learn how to taxi.....
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Go back to what grandma used to say is if you have nothing nice to say; don't say it at all. :uhoh
Since when discussing different ideas retarded? Or are you so miserably unoriginal and boring that you have to laugh at others to get off? Go home little man.
to be honest, what you are asking, is for the game to move closer to "Arcade".
Considering the state of PC based Flight Sims, we are happy that someone out there still wants to swallow the small profit margins and put out a product, which as a "Simulation" appeals to the kind of player who strives for as much accuracy to real life that is possible on a curve. Being that a curve eventually has a point where it becomes so realistic it is unplayable. Think of Falcon 4.0 and push it another 5% towards Realism... heck, its why the genre died, there just was not enough people who wanted that steep of a curve.
Most people here are fine with the curve, and in some cases, wouldnt mind a touch more realism.
You had an honest point, you just neglected to realize it represents a much larger issue in the Simulation Gaming Community. Everyone here has deemed you a Console gamer who wants to kill our favorite genre... and they are pulling out the flame throwers.
Nothing personal im sure.
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As far as reality, planes are never refueled and armed at the same time.
They are however armed (cannons) and refueled prior to their first flight in the same place the bird has been sitting all night/day on the "Line". Explosive ordinance (bombs and rockets) are generally done away from the plane parking area do to the obvious safety concerns if a bomb or rocket where to explode. This is how we did it in the Corps. From the pictures and history we learned while working on the birds, this has not changed much since WW2.
All our birds where parked in 2 inward facing rows. When a sortie would go out that required any live ordinance we would first have the bird fueled. Then ordinance would load the cannon rounds on the line. At this point the Pilot would taxi to the "hot" pad and get his explosive ordinance loaded (our ord guys would meet him out there).
If a pilot landed needing rearm and refueled they would go to the refuel pad (stopping at the water pad along they way, Harriers spray water into the engine for cooling when at full throttle and limit switches turned off during hover or FMP) Once they have their fuel they will go to the "hot" pad and rearm. All refueling came from fuel trucks rather then any fuel blatters/storage area's.
All ordinance was brought in on the Ord truck and never stored close to the hangers or on the line. This was a lesson learned (as it was told to us) from Pearl.
Just my experience with how Ord/Fuel works at an airstation.
BTW, our refuel pad was at the end of OUR line, not the runway. Each squadron shared a pad, there where 8 squadrons on our Base with a total of 10 pads (c130 squadrons where set up differently) So refuel pads extended the length of the Hanger side of the 2 main runways. There where 3 active pads for loading ordinance and other reserved area's for war time conditions.
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Lets get rid of the rearm pad totally. You want realism make it so you have to taxi back into or near the Hanger to reload. OOps I forgot this a game not a simulation sorry Hitech. :uhoh
There's nothing relistic about arming or refueling in or near a hanger. That's not what they're for. The place where the rearm pads are now are about as realisric as it gets for hot fueling and arming. This is always done away from structures and main aircraft parking so if there is an accident the damage is contained and doesn't threaten parked aircraft, structures, or people not involved in the process.
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That joke only works when it really is a moot point. This one isn't... I mean, what exactly is the sense in putting a rearm pad in the middle of a patch of concrete where planes land? Can you imagine that in any conceivable real airfield? And do the bombers get anything out of this, or even heavy fighters? The only way this one makes sense is in the mind of a (with all due respect) gamer with no sense of the reality of flying planes. A few of this kind of idea would quickly make AH into something like Fighter Ace.
Hummmmm.......well OK. but what sense does it make to HAVE to land on concrete in order not to get a ditch or land kills? If you make it to a friendly airfield and land, anywhere within the confines of that airfield you should be able to successfully land, kills or not. Speaking of course, with a sense to realism.
Not trying to speak for the OP, but maybe he meant in the middle of the airfield to one side of the runway?
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Go back to what grandma used to say is if you have nothing nice to say; don't say it at all. :uhoh
:P
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Hummmmm.......well OK. but what sense does it make to HAVE to land on concrete in order not to get a ditch or land kills? If you make it to a friendly airfield and land, anywhere within the confines of that airfield you should be able to successfully land, kills or not. Speaking of course, with a sense to realism.
Not trying to speak for the OP, but maybe he meant in the middle of the airfield to one side of the runway?
I don't think so. Not in the current layout. You don't put trees at the ends of runways... But somehow you put equally dangerous (more massive and flammable to boot) obstacles right in the middle of where planes are at their least maneuverable and have the least visibility?
I could see a hotpad off on one of the taxi ways on "small" airfields, but nowhere near the middle of any of the X-layout multi runway fields.
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As far as reality, planes are never refueled and armed at the same time.
I'm just speculating, but I'd guess that rule might have been set aside when there were enemy bombers 15 minutes out and they were refueling/rearming planes from the CAP, especially on CVs - the imperative would be to get it all done and the equipment secured as fast as humanly possible. We haven't really had any situations like that since WW2; when was the last time an American airfield or CV anywhere in the world was bombed?
I also wonder what the arrangements would have been like on the unfinished fields that were the rule in forward areas in the Solomans and New Guinea, or at the more primitive satellite fields used by Fighter Command in the BoB or the Luftwaffe in the USSR - especially in the early days in the SoPac where it was all they could do to fill the craters in the runway from the last air raid or bombardment. I know at one point the fueling equipment at Cactus consisted of hand pumps and 55-gallon drums, presumably carted around in a jeep or something. I'm sure they must have had some interesting improvised ord carts as well.
In any case, a 30-second pit stop is already a bit much, especially since most of the time the only reason to do it is to get your name in lights and rack up your score. (As for rearming at fields with ords or hangers down, how are they supposed to land and rearm planes if they can't arm or fly the planes already on the ground? If the ords are down, they ought to be down.)
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we need a new dot command: "whistle for the refueler truck"
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we need a new dot command: "whistle for the refueler truck"
now THAT"S some funny stuff!! :aok
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to be honest, what you are asking, is for the game to move closer to "Arcade".
Considering the state of PC based Flight Sims, we are happy that someone out there still wants to swallow the small profit margins and put out a product, which as a "Simulation" appeals to the kind of player who strives for as much accuracy to real life that is possible on a curve. Being that a curve eventually has a point where it becomes so realistic it is unplayable. Think of Falcon 4.0 and push it another 5% towards Realism... heck, its why the genre died, there just was not enough people who wanted that steep of a curve.
Most people here are fine with the curve, and in some cases, wouldnt mind a touch more realism.
You had an honest point, you just neglected to realize it represents a much larger issue in the Simulation Gaming Community. Everyone here has deemed you a Console gamer who wants to kill our favorite genre... and they are pulling out the flame throwers.
Nothing personal im sure.
I hear what your saying about the realism, but as another pointed out; there was never a rearming pad at the end of the runway in reality. And if we want more realism, let's just turn friendly collisions on and make us taxi for our turn during takeoff.
I mean we cant have it both ways but I do see a very nice convenience of "arcade" like features and excellent realism as well. But I am not trying to kill peoples game. But I understand your point of of the perception of "arcade". Then again, CV rearming fits the arcade theory but that's in the game already so I am not responsible for that. :D
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Not trying to speak for the OP, but maybe he meant in the middle of the airfield to one side of the runway?
No, I meant middle of the field originally just as an exploritory idea. I was just brainstorming and wanted other input. But your idea is actually better on the side of runway. :salute
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we need a new dot command: "whistle for the refueler truck"
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jHVB4l-dSjk/SWfSMZa7uQI/AAAAAAAAAD4/l1GANYUIKfI/S718/Sunset.jpg)
:rofl
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As far as reality, planes are never refueled and armed at the same time.
Hot Pits !
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Hot Pits !
Even in Hot Pits, Ord was never loaded at the same time as fuel. First Fuel would be taken on, then the truck moved and Ord would be put on, or the other way around. While not everything was done to SOP in war time, understand that there where times when bombs would explode during loading from being dropped or what not. Why would you take the chance to take out your pilot, plane, crew AND your fuel?
As planes never took off Solo in combat situations crews would be fueling and loading ord on differnet planes at different times. But as far as we where taught and from what I have seen in modern day combat sorties even on the LHD, Fuel and Ord was never done at the same time, even if it was done in the same place. It was just a mixture of 2 possibly dangerous actions together.
So if you want to "think" reality, when you hit the rearm pad, just think that the frist 15sec they are loading Fuel and the last 15sec they are loading ord...there done :P
Also on sotries to take down bombers normally it was just cannon rounds and fuel neither of which take very long, but due to the location of both the fuel and ammo loading area's on most aircraft they still where done seperatly. But pretty much back to back. or they would load the rounds in one wing while the fuel truch was parked and fueling from the other side.
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I hear what your saying about the realism, but as another pointed out; there was never a rearming pad at the end of the runway in reality. And if we want more realism, let's just turn friendly collisions on and make us taxi for our turn during takeoff.
Its always fun to see ppl asking for something arcadish under the pretext that game isnt 100% realistic anyway. :aok
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Here is a picture of an airstation and Ihave marked the Hotpad, fuel pit, and aircraft parking. Prior to their first flight A/C are fueled on the line (where they are parked)
If the flight is a turn around, they are refueled in the fuel pit.
The hot bad is just below and to the left of the Compassrose.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/sreising/Airstatioin.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/sreising/Hotpadandfuelpits.jpg)
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All that to save... virtually zero time at all on landing - just land longer if you want to stop right next to the hotpad, and make things more difficult for heavy birds - they need to then taxi back to the far end of the runway - while not making any difference from now for light birds' take off - being at the far end or the middle of the runway both give enough tarmac to get airborne from.
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Hmmm, seems like, "A one eyed monkey, hanging from a 2cent balloon, could blow those planes all to hell, with a single hand grenade!!!" LOL :devil...
Just joshin ya, I know we'll never get a realistic wartime dispersal sim... It just doesn't fit the game...
RC
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I know we'll never get a realistic wartime dispersal sim... It just doesn't fit the game...
Exactly, as much fun as I'd have with more realism like taxing and what not, it doesn't fit the game, so when I want that, I'll go find another game.
Still trying to figure out how to get my Jane's USAF to work with Vista
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You can taxi: use the hangar spawn.
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You can taxi: use the hangar spawn.
Yeah I suppose that's true. I guess I was trying to convey everyone participating in a more realistic sim, beyond taxing. I would enjoy it, but I understand that that isn't the reason most people sign up for this and it certainly doesn't take away from the game.
Well don't be surprised if you see me taxing out of a hanger every now and then (honesty don't know why I never really thought about that before). I'll create my own little simulation in my head :D
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Looking at the map above, I see the runway and a "darker' area on the borders of the runway. If we could just move to the side of a dark area, and refuel and go........that's simple enough to me.
I suppose I am a little impatient. And that's what years of Falcon 4.0 will do to me. :D
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I just wish the fuel tank wasnt so close to the hot pad. Thats the problem for most new players. They clip the wing trying to turn into it. The first few months I played I kept hitting it. Then I fig out how to miss it but pulled in forward and couldnt turn back out.
If you land on the taxi way you can just wheel right on to it but you still have to eeek around the fuel tank to get back on the runway.
I have also tried landing short then crossing the grass to the taxi way but some fields have small hills/bumps or ack right near the hot pad and if you hit them your screwed.
Once you learn it can be done quite easily. But I dont like having to be so hard on my joystick by holding hard rudder and aileron to make that 180 turn to get back on the runway.
I usually just land on the taxi way because I can pull right on the pad then rudder around the tank and take off.
I think the biggest problem is the building and fuel tank are TOO close to the pad. A little more clearence would do the trick.