Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: RaptorL on August 21, 2009, 03:05:10 PM
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There's something that's been bothering me. When a tank fires a round you see the shell as a glowing yellow orb flying through the air. wouldn't it just be a black streak flying through the air. Can someone explain this.
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I can explain.
It's a game.
Pssst....In real life that shell would be coming so fast you wouldn't see it at all.
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There's something that's been bothering me. When a tank fires a round you see the shell as a glowing yellow orb flying through the air. wouldn't it just be a black streak flying through the air. Can someone explain this.
Yes.
It's hot.
In fact, it is very hot.
Read Blooz's fine print.
Carry on.
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Seems pretty authentic on my screen. I'm either in the tower or just noticed a nice new hole that's appeared near my tank. :o
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Once apon a time I drove tanks for a living in the Army. When we fired main-gun we saw a VERY fast moving glowing spec going downrange cause it had a tracer element on the round.........
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The glowing orb is the tracer material burning at the back of the projectile.
They use it to increase round visibility downrange and adds to the projectiles range.
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The glowing orb is the tracer material burning at the back of the projectile.
Yes.
They use it to increase round visibility downrange
Yes.
and adds to the projectiles range.
No, it doesnt create any thrust worth increasing the range of a tank shell.
Regards,
Matt
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No, it doesnt create any thrust worth increasing the range of a tank shell.
"In fact, some artillery munitions and short-range rockets can achieve increased range (by 10 to 50%) by adding a small rocket-type gas generator; its plume fills the void at the base of the projectile with reaction gas at a finite pressure, thus increasing the base pressure of the projectile and reducing the base drag."
Sutton, George P., "Rocket Propulsion Elements: An Introduction to the Engineering of Rockets"
New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1992. Pg 161
For the purposes of this conversation it applies, less drag means increased velocity downrange.
Edit: Of course if you really pressed me I can break out military testing on such matters.
Strip
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"In fact, some artillery munitions and short-range rockets can achieve increased range (by 10 to 50%) by adding a small rocket-type gas generator; its plume fills the void at the base of the projectile with reaction gas at a finite pressure, thus increasing the base pressure of the projectile and reducing the base drag."
Sutton, George P., "Rocket Propulsion Elements: An Introduction to the Engineering of Rockets"
New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1992. Pg 161
For the purposes of this conversation it applies, less drag means increased velocity downrange.
Edit: Of course if you really pressed me I can break out military testing on such matters.
Strip
Yes. But that's a completely different thing. That's not the tracer material you were talking about earlier. Keiler is right when he says. It doesn't add speed and/or range.
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Yes. But that's a completely different thing. That's not the tracer material you were talking about earlier. Keiler is right when he says. It doesn't add speed and/or range.
Lushce,
I usually hold your opinion in very high regard but in this case your mistaken. Tracer material is basically rocket fuel with a phosphorus or magnesium fuel, the percentages and chemical composition are very close. While it doesn't necessarily add speed it reduces base drag, lower drag means longer flight. Guess I will have to break out the .50 BMG round testing I did for military work. I really didn't want to get into an debate involving ballistics, aerodynamics and chemical composition tho.
Strip
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Lushce,
I usually hold your opinion in very high regard but in this case your mistaken. Tracer material is basically rocket fuel with a phosphorus or magnesium fuel, the percentages and chemical composition are very close. While it doesn't necessarily add speed it reduces base drag, lower drag means longer flight. Guess I will have to break out the .50 BMG round testing I did for military work. I really didn't want to get into an debate involving ballistics, aerodynamics and chemical composition tho.
Strip
We are talking about standard WW2 tank projectiles right?
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The basic theory applies to all rounds, generally the larger the round and the longer duration of flight the more pronounced the effects.
So if anything its more pertinent to this conversation.
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You're wrong this time Strip. Tracer rounds are not the same as rocket assisted projectiles. In fact the tracer rounds have slightly shorter range than a non tracer round since they are lighter due to some of the metal casing being replaced with the phosphorus chemical. This is more noticeable with smaller caliber rounds like the machine guns and light cannon used in WWII aircraft.
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You're wrong this time Strip. Tracer rounds are not the same as rocket assisted projectiles. In fact the tracer rounds have slightly shorter range than a non tracer round since they are lighter due to some of the metal casing being replaced with the phosphorus chemical. This is more noticeable with smaller caliber rounds like the machine guns and light cannon used in WWII aircraft.
In some way, he actually is right. What Strip is talking about are not rocket-assisted projectiles but base bleed projectile. The reduce drag by producing a stream of gas. However, tha WW2 tank projectiles are just tracer, not base bleeders.
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tracer rounds are less accurate than normal ball point rounds.
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Diehard,
I know the quoted portion says "rocket type-gas generator" but in the context of the chapter it is referring to any gas generating combustion, which a tracer is. I have very specific testing data but the legalities of releasing it are not something I want to test. Ceterus paribus, a tracer round leaves the barrel with more velocity than a non-tracer round. Range on the other hand is dependent on a multitude of parameters.
Lusche,
Chemically similar to rocket fuel, tracer compounds, produce descent quantity of gas per volume during decomposition.
Strip
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In some way, he actually is right. What Strip is talking about are not rocket-assisted projectiles but base bleed projectile. The reduce drag by producing a stream of gas. However, tha WW2 tank projectiles are just tracer, not base bleeders.
Well, base bleed is a 1970s technology mostly (if not solely) used for artillery rounds. Normal tracer rounds also have slightly reduced drag due to the same effect, but not enough to offset the loss of mass (weight).
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Strip,
alright, I feel that I have to stand corrected.
Its about 5 years ago that I tangled with the finesses of exterior tank ballistics that I completely forgot about the base-bleed effect.
I also have to admit that I am not into the matter anymore that I could argue with what Die Hard said in the previous post.
What is the consesus now? Is there any "rule of thumb" you could give on how much this effect is actually a ballistic benefit for the projectile?
If I dont reply soon that means I am out of town, I am really interested on this subject.
Regards!
Matt
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I would just like to thank you all for being so nice :salute. it was refreshing to read this far into a post and not have 2 guys off topic and going at eachother throats. please continue its vary a interesting read.
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Well, base bleed is a 1970s technology mostly (if not solely) used for artillery rounds. Normal tracer rounds also have slightly reduced drag due to the same effect, but not enough to offset the loss of mass (weight).
Tracer rounds are, by their very nature, "base-bleed" type projectiles. In some tank rounds the effect is great enough to increase the range. Generally rounds without boattail's will benefit the most from this. A boattail decreases the base drag reducing the effect of the tracer or gas generator. Conventional tracer rounds can approach ten percent less drag than inert rounds. While tracers are lighter, and slow down quicker, they also leave the barrel faster. Most of this applies more to the big calibers, beyond even the .50 BMG and out to the larger artillery rounds.
Strip
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/50BMG_Rounds.jpg)
Here is a photo showing similar rounds I did some work with, the SLAP and SLAP-T. They are the two SABOT rounds towards the upper right hand side. Technically, while the SABOT's are different the bullets are identical in shape save the tracer cavity. They are solid, very dense tungsten rounds and fire at a velocity well north of 4000+ fps. Rather expensive to produce but they are extremely easy on barrel wear and have excellent downrange ballistics. Note the heavy crimp to help build pressure before the round unseats and heads down the barrel. Fun times....
SLAP....Saboted Light Armor Pentrator
SLAP-T.......Tracer Version
Around $8.00 a pop in quantities of over a million!!
Strip
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either way, we found them to be less accurate than conventional bull point rounds
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either way, we found them to be less accurate than conventional bull point rounds
This is due to manufacturing variations in weight, density, and burn time of the tracer material.
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In some tank rounds the effect is great enough to increase the range.
Name one please.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/50BMG_Rounds.jpg)
Here is a photo showing similar rounds I did some work with, the SLAP and SLAP-T. They are the two SABOT rounds towards the upper right hand side. Technically, while the SABOT's are different the bullets are identical in shape save the tracer cavity.
The two penetrators are clearly not the same shape. The one on the right is clearly blunter with the distance from point to full diameter being shorter than the one on the left. Also why do you capitalize SABOT like that? It's a French word, not an acronym.
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The ones I were involved with were the same shape, the Winchester made SLAP(-T) might have a different design.
As for you other question, why would it matter, I could name ten? Without in depth test data you couldn't prove or disprove anything. I have some of that data for the SLAP rounds but frankly its never going to be posted on the internet.
The sabot bit was just a brain fart, lack of sleep and a crying two year can have that effect.
Strip
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Well I was obviously asking for you to back up your claim that "in some tank rounds the effect is great enough to increase the range" with some documentation.
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The documentation I have isn't even on computer with internet access, much less on the internet.
Suffice to say, any tracer round will have about 8-12% less drag than a identical sized inert round.
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Accession Number : ADB000431
Title : Wind Tunnel Study of Base Drag Reduction by Combustion of Pyrotechnics,
Corporate Author : ARMY BALLISTIC RESEARCH LAB ABERDEEN PROVING GROUND MD
Personal Author(s) : Ward, J. Richard ; Baltakis, Frank P. ; Pronchick, Steven W.
Report Date : OCT 1974
Pagination or Media Count : 83
Abstract : It is well known that tracer rounds have longer ranges than comparable nontracer ammunition, and the ballistician seeks ways to degrade the tracer's ballistics to match the conventional round. Presumably the tracer reduces base drag by addition of heat and mass into the near wake of the projectile. Wind tunnel experiments conducted with well-defined gases at metered rates of injection showed that a hot, low-molecular weight gas would be the better drag reducer. It was also suggested that combustion in the near-wake could be advantageous. Fuel-rich mixtures of magnesium and inorganic oxidizers were investigated in this report as such gas generators (designated 'fumers'). The excess magnesium in such mixtures is to be the hot, low-molecular weight gas. Wind tunnel tests were performed at the Naval Ordnance Laboratory to see if fuel-rich magnesium propellants reduced base drag. These tests showed reductions on the order of fifty percent in combination with oxidizers that burn slowly enough to be used in small arms applications. The base drag reduction was also proportional to the quantity of excess fuel in the mixtures. Ignition of mixtures containing over forty percent by weight magnesium was impossible for all oxidizers tested. (Author)
Descriptors : *TRACER AMMUNITION, *PROJECTILES, *GUN PROPELLANTS, EXTERIOR BALLISTICS, DRAG REDUCTION, DRAG REDUCTION, RANGE(DISTANCE), AERODYNAMIC DRAG, WAKE, COMBUSTION, BASE FLOW, MAGNESIUM, OXIDIZERS, SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION, PROJECTILE TRAJECTORIES, VELOCITY, WIND TUNNEL TESTS, PYROTECHNICS, FUMES, BASE PRESSURE, IGNITION, BURNING RATE, FLAME ARRESTERS, OXAMIDES.
Subject Categories : PYROTECHNICS
BALLISTICS
Distribution Statement : APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE
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dude, go twittle urself, its like wrapping the round in paper and burning it...whatever the hell ur talking bout is more or less a small rocket propeled object, like an RPG r sum toejam, we are talking about the chemicals the rounds are coated in to give them visibilty, and in planes, the tracer rounds are often described as basket-ball orange, or blood-red, personally i like our white tracers....
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I'm still waiting for that tank round...
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I'm still waiting for that tank round...
I guess the laws of physics cease to apply as the round size increases...
It was fun while it lasted but I think its time to step away.
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dude, go twittle urself, its like wrapping the round in paper and burning it...whatever the hell ur talking bout is more or less a small rocket propeled object, like an RPG r sum soup, we are talking about the chemicals the rounds are coated in to give them visibilty, and in planes, the tracer rounds are often described as basket-ball orange, or blood-red, personally i like our white tracers....
Please go learn basics of tracer rounds....the rounds aren't coated in anything.
In WW2 the IJN, I believe, used green, though I have personally seen green, white, red, yellow, orange, purple and blue.
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dude, go twittle urself, its like wrapping the round in paper and burning it...whatever the hell ur talking bout is more or less a small rocket propeled object, like an RPG r sum soup, we are talking about the chemicals the rounds are coated in to give them visibilty, and in planes, the tracer rounds are often described as basket-ball orange, or blood-red, personally i like our white tracers....
Usually it's a bad idea to flame someone who seems to have a deep knowledge of a subject (especially in Strip's case where he seems to have worked with these principles in a job of some sort...) when your knowledge is really very superficial and generally lacking.
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Usually it's a bad idea to flame someone who seems to have a deep knowledge of a subject (especially in Strip's case where he seems to have worked with these principles in a job of some sort...) when your knowledge is really very superficial and generally lacking.
In general, yes but his facts do not apply to the tracer round, its like me describing to you the effects of a hollow point round on human flesh, if you asked me about buckshot...
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It was fun while it lasted but I think its time to step away.
Thought so.
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In general, yes but his facts do not apply to the tracer round, its like me describing to you the effects of a hollow point round on human flesh, if you asked me about buckshot...
I suggest you go read the first line in the abstract portion of the research paper I posted, then look at the author.
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No two tracers will ever burn the same, period!!! Some burn long, others just fizzle... Comparing solid rocket fuel, to burning tracer compounds, is just silly!!! Even tho rocket fuel may have some of the same chemicals, they ain't even close to being the same!!! Cavity projectiles will never have the ballistic consistency to match a solid projectile, especially when that cavity is being emptied in flight, and in an inconsistant manner... Consistency=accuracy, Just the nature of the beast!!!
Then again tracers aren't supposed to be accurate.. They are supposed to tell everyone, shoot over there!!!
Unfortunately, Murphy's laws of combat apply here... #1, "Tracers work both ways!!!", and #2, "Always remember that your weapons, (including tracer ammo) are always produced by the lowest bidder!!!" Jk!!
Tracers generally have a higher muzzle velocity, because they are generally lighter in weight... Combustable tracer compound is lighter than lead, so there ya go... Vented base to eliminate the vortex drag behind the projectile? OK, fine, whatever, there is always someone dinking around with bullets... But why bother on small arms? Just to get a few feet per second? Seems like a waste of development time, and retooling to me..
Just teach your troops to shoot straight instead!!!
RC
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"Wouldn't it just be a black streak flying through the air."
On the receiving end basically yes. In practice you probably notice it only when it hits your armour. Depending on weather and daytime conditions you probably could see the tracer glow in some cases but I'm not sure since, luckily, I haven't had a privilege of ever being in the receiving end of such rounds so I can't really tell. That kind of feature in AH would mean that spotting a tank firing at you would be more difficult -unless you were looking at the opposite direction ie. direction where the round that possibly just missed you was flying...
Of course in lighter rounds the effect of uneven burn of tracer compound is more pronounced on projectile balance. I have read that it was quite common to see a MG tracer round suddenly change its direction when fired from an aircraft as it was burning its tracer compound and decelerating so the combined effect of unbalance and changing aerodynamic conditions did their tricks.
-C+
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All this academics aside the most important thing to remember about tracers is this: As long as they're moving it's ok. If they're standing still, duck!
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I have watched a few like that when getting near ack.....you can almost see the hit coming sometimes.
:rofl
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Lushce,
I usually hold your opinion in very high regard but in this case your mistaken. Tracer material is basically rocket fuel with a phosphorus or magnesium fuel, the percentages and chemical composition are very close. While it doesn't necessarily add speed it reduces base drag, lower drag means longer flight. Guess I will have to break out the .50 BMG round testing I did for military work.
Strip
Dude, I was in the Army for 3 1/2 years and worked as a Sapper(Demolitions mostly) and know...it is a magnesium powder that ignites when the firing pin hits the round. Does nothing for velocity or distance. Your talking about a larger round that travels a mile just on its charge.
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Read the military abstract I posted on the other page, your own people wrote a paper disagreeing with that statement.
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I'm almost positive no one read the abstract.
Being a tracer round may not make the bullet/shell hit harder downrange, but having a higher muzzle velocity seems like it would lead to a flatter trajectory which would lead to easier aiming?
It just seems like this would occur because the end result would be a lighter round hitting the target at a higher velocity, probably roughly equaling the slightly heavier round hitting slower.
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"but having a higher muzzle velocity seems like it would lead to a flatter trajectory which would lead to easier aiming?"
I don't think it affects the "muzzle" velocity as such, merely the drag when the round is flying i.e. flight velocity so the round will not decelerate as much due to drag. And I'd also think that how much it does that is affected by the size of the round and the size of the tracer component in relation to that. Or is there variation? Is the tracer portion usually the size of the rear end of the round or are there rounds which just have a small port from where the tracer glow discharges?
-C+
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A lighter bullet will have a higher muzzle velocity, but not more range. Since it is faster the drag will be greater by the square of the increase in speed, and since it is lighter it carries less momentum to overcome that extra drag. It will slow down faster than a heavier bullet. If you have two identically shaped bullets and fire them from the same cartridge the heavier one will always go farther. That's why they use lead instead of aluminum to make bullets.
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Pssst....In real life that shell would be coming so fast you wouldn't see it at all
Actually this is not true you can see the shells from i believe any tank as long as they are tracers. That is alot of weight to throw and it doesnt go to fast at all... (by bullet standards) :salute
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Actually this is not true you can see the shells from i believe any tank as long as they are tracers. That is alot of weight to throw and it doesnt go to fast at all... (by bullet standards) :salute
Must be all those years I spent as a tanker in the US Army were wasted.
I've seen thousands of tank shells fired (and fired hundreds myself) and you can't see them unless you are behind them and they of course, have tracers on them.
I think the OP was talking about rounds being fired at him. You can see it coming at you in the game. You wouldn't see it coming at you in real life.
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This is how fast artillery rounds come in and they are much slower than tank rounds.
"Incoming" for real.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk2CWxpGNps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wk2CWxpGNps)
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Must be all those years I spent as a tanker in the US Army were wasted.
I've seen thousands of tank shells fired (and fired hundreds myself) and you can't see them unless you are behind them and they of course, have tracers on them.
I think the OP was talking about rounds being fired at him. You can see it coming at you in the game. You wouldn't see it coming at you in real life.
and another thing, been a peeve of mine for years.. You wouldn't HEAR it either, like we do in game.. we're talking about supersonic projectiles after all.. why can we hear the enemy tank gun fire before the round hits us? :huh
The sound of the gun should arrive some time AFTER the round has hit. maybe htc did it this way just for gameplay... but i'd rather see a puff of smoke or something instead of the light-speed muzzle blast :)
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same as you hear the crack of the bullet, after it has gone over your head
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i thought he was talking about the round going away <S> :salute
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To actually answer the question of "why," every bullet in this game looks exactly the same up to naval artillery. Besides that, every projectile is a "yellow streak" scaled up or down based upon the size of the round. I believe AAA fire is made a bit longer to increase visibility. The naval artillery consists of a "chunk" of near black material.
So, really, it's just a technical aspect. I would speculate it's done that way because a video card can draw that "bar of light" easier than rendering an object. If actual balls were modeled, your frame rate would hit the toilet as soon as someone opened up with .303s.