Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Gary26 on August 21, 2009, 08:08:44 PM
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Ive played AH since AH1 came out. Ive always used auto combat trim. I was kinda wanting to learn to fly with manual trim. I under stand the cooncepts of trim well, but what I need to figure out is how to set in the game. I have an X52 stick and I have the 3 axis on the throttle set for rudder, aileron and elevator. Is that all I need? I see so many other trim settings for left trim, right trim, etc, etc. Even a setting for Flight Trim Set. Not to sure about what i need to have programed to where. Any advice or tips, I would be greatful. :salute
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I have x52.all trim knobs are on my throttle. my elevator trim is on throtlle, the roller by index finger. Aileron trim is dial around the bottom button by thumb and rudder trim is dial around the top button.
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Need some more detail though. There all alot of trim settings you can map. What the heck is this flight trim set thing you can map?
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I have aileron on the top dial (with this axis inverted), elevator on the slider and rudder on the thumb dial.
Setting these up for trim is pretty simple, you go under analog inputs and find the function you want for the dial... elevator, rudder, aileron trim...
Everything else is for using your keyboard for trim. If you use dials you don't need anything else unless you want to have combat trim on your stick.
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Ya - i'm using the "keys" to trim - using a MS FF2 stick with no extra buttons - guess it's time to look at some more capable ones c/w throttle setup - this info pretty much nails it for me - thanx.
But for the moment I've always judged my elevator trim by the "feel" of my stick - that is : how much stick do i have left during this set of manauvers. Then hammering the appropriate "I" or "K" keys LOL :lol - Is there a better way - can some of the cockpit instrument be used to give you an idea about optimum trim????
cheers eh!
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I also have a x52 and I had mapped this to the left upper hat switch on the control stick for toggle on/off and up & down trim adjustments
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There are times and situations depending on plane type, where manual trim will perform better than Auto or combat trim. However, it significantly adds to pilot load.
So ask yourself "Do I really need or want to do manual trim?"
If you fly LW planes add a + mark to the yes side.
If you mostly T&B add a + mark to the no side.
Myself, I'm lazy, most of the time I'd really rather be thinking about how I'm going to beat this guy, rather than worrying about him and trim both.
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There are times and situations depending on plane type, where manual trim will perform better than Auto or combat trim. However, it significantly adds to pilot load.
So ask yourself "Do I really need or want to do manual trim?"
If you fly LW planes add a + mark to the yes side.
If you mostly T&B add a + mark to the no side.
Myself, I'm lazy, most of the time I'd really rather be thinking about how I'm going to beat this guy, rather than worrying about him and trim both.
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I fly the USAAF birds and the F6F without combat trim. Almost all of the others, I fly with combat trim--especially the Spits and 109s.
For me, I've pretty much got my controls optimized for flying P-47s, so I have rudder trim and pitch trim mapped to a hat on my throttle. Aileron trim stays on the keyboard because I'm out of hat switches, and the Jug is pretty stable in the roll axis, regardless of configuration changes. Most of the time, I have it trimmed for around 300 mph IAS "hands off". It doesn't seem to fight me too much at that setting, and when I pull through the vertical, I don't have to worry about it not being nose-heavy. The P-38 is particularly suited for manual trim, since there's basically no or little yaw or roll inputs to counteract.
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Flight trim set is a command to make Manual Trim automatically match the control surfaces' positions at the time you press Set Trim button. This is useful e.g. when you're in a damaged plane and need to move the controls' neutral position in a hurry.
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I have been finding it usefull in a sustained turning fight mainly and sometimes when I need a little edge pulling up on a target if flaps cannot be deployed.
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Need some more detail though. There all alot of trim settings you can map. What the heck is this flight trim set thing you can map?
Flight trim will set all of your manual trim settings back to a neutral point without going to auto pilot and waiting for the plane to stabilize...at least that's the way it's been working for me.
Each plane has certain flight characteristics that can be manipulated better with manual trim...manual trim settings really help when you push your plane to the point of compression and your controls are sluggish...and I've started using it to tighten my maneuvers in fights...(doesn't always work out for the best but I'm still learning the intricacies)... :D
I've programmed aileron and elevator trims on the "programmable keys" of my cyborg keyboard for easy access with my thumb...I don't worry about rudder so much since my stick twists.
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First off I am very glad you posted this. I look forward to the "experts" shedding some light on the subject. I am sure they know better then I.
I use both combat trim and manual trim.....he's how i do it.
I leave combat trim on for take offs ....landing ......also for grabbing altitude ...or level flight (non-combat)
Once I engage an enemy I switch to manual mode ....Like ghost said you have to watch out for too much "chores" on the pilot. So all I worry about is elevator trim .....if for some reason the plane feels like it needs some aileron trim ....I will hit combat trim on to quick fix it ...then I turn it right back off ......If i make a major speed change....slower or faster I may click combat trim back on ...then off again... I do this mostly for a quick aileron correction. The combat trim seems to do a nice job on roll trim.
Buttons wise ...I use a CH throttle ....I have the middle front button as: "combat trim on/off"
for the actual trim adjusting I use the front 4 way hat for ...elevator trim ...and RPM control
I have a question for the experts? .....many pilots who fly the P38 and the Ki84 mention that Combat trim can work against you in certain lower speed and high G moves .....what portion of the combat trim is working against you? Elevator or aileron? I know that since the p38 has counter rotating props it must be the elevator? In the Ki84 would it be both?
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I'm using combat trim 90% of the time.
Only when I get into certain areas of the flight envepope in some planes, I switch to manual trim:
For example: When getting slow & flaps out in a F4U, or when the stick is getting heavy in P38's or BF109's.
In that case I use manual trim to adjust my elevator, airleron I have on neutral setting then.
The only time I actually use airleron trim is when missing half a wing ;)
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When getting slow & flaps out, or when the stick is getting heavy.
it significantly adds to pilot load
These are really all you need to consider.
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I've been using manual trim for the past 5 years. I will continue to use manual trim 100% of the time as I do enjoy the challenge.
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I've started using it to tighten my maneuvers in fights...(doesn't always work out for the best but I'm still learning the intricacies)... :D
Elevator trim, does not help one turn tighter.....this arguement has been hashed out over time and time again......the only time you might gain by using Combat Trim or full up elevator trim when fighting another plane slow, is:
- when fighting against the same type plane and you use full up elevator trim and the opponent does not
- to help reduce the load input the pile-it has to make..ie Elevator trimmed to say 250 IAS level flight vs someone using combat trim or full-up elv trim. the person flying with Full-up or CT Trim will use less stick input, compared to the other guy having to pull more to accomplish the same desired result when the fight detreriorates to a very slow speed
- check out Lephturns wonderful write-up regarding "Using Trim in Aces High" @ http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/trim/trim.htm
it is beter to have some Elevator trimmed to where you would need to have a slight pull on the stick to maintain a "guns on solution" instead of using combat trim and experiencing the bouncing nose/gunsight dilema trying to maintain your gun sight on the target.....
do a search on this BBS regarding combat trim or trim controls or trim settings.....etc.......
me personally, fly most all planes to a trim setting of what the trim would be when the plane is flying level in max cruise speed ( top level flight speed )
from that point on all auto trims/ combat trims/ etc.are off and I do not mess with the trim. So when I am going over the top and start to come back down, my plane is not fighting the automatically adjust CT that has my elevator trimmed full up....flying this way lets my plane quickly accelerate faster than if I had CT on and the plane is actually working against itself trying to regain speed.....
As Lephturn has noted/written in his Trim write-up CT does hamper you when flying slow ( 150 mph or slower, or fly fast over say 400 mph )
hope this helps clear up any misunderstandings........
although it all is a personal preference, and what works for one person might not work for another......
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envepope
LOL...what? :huh
The only time I actually use airleron trim is when missing half a wing ;)
Push a 109 at over 400mph and you will use aileron trim more... :D
Elevator trim, does not help one turn tighter.....this arguement has been hashed out over time and time again......the only time you might gain by using Combat Trim or full up elevator trim when fighting another plane slow, is:
- when fighting against the same type plane and you use full up elevator trim and the opponent does not
- to help reduce the load input the pile-it has to make..ie Elevator trimmed to say 250 IAS level flight vs someone using combat trim or full-up elv trim. the person flying with Full-up or CT Trim will use less stick input, compared to the other guy having to pull more to accomplish the same desired result when the fight detreriorates to a very slow speed
- check out Lephturns wonderful write-up regarding "Using Trim in Aces High" @ http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/trim/trim.htm
it is beter to have some Elevator trimmed to where you would need to have a slight pull on the stick to maintain a "guns on solution" instead of using combat trim and experiencing the bouncing nose/gunsight dilema trying to maintain your gun sight on the target.....
:confused: :huh Uhhh TC, I didn't say anything about using combat trim...but since you brought it up, combat trim in the LW rides doesn't do squat...but when flying one of the harder to turn 109s or a 190s manual elevator trim does help tighten the turn.
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gyrene, did not realized I said you yourself specifically used Combat Trim... I did however say that elevator trim does not benefit people to be able to turn tighter....... although for some reason it benefits you aparently to help tighten the turn in 190's or 109s.......
was just trying to be helpful, nothing more nothing less.......
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although for some reason it benefits you aparently to help tighten the turn in 190's or 109s.......
You're being too nice. You know he's wrong, you just don't want to get into an endless argument with someone who will not admit fault. Hopefully noobs won't take his advice.
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You're being too nice. You know he's wrong, you just don't want to get into an endless argument with someone who will not admit fault. Hopefully noobs won't take his advice.
Yeah Steve...you're so right...you know everything there is about aviation we should all bow down to your 1337 uberness...
If I were the expert you obviously are I'd be playing WoW instead of trying to be an uber toon pile-it like you.
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LOL...what? :huh meant envelope ;)
Push a 109 at over 400mph and you will use aileron trim more... :D I'm frequently pushing 109's over 400mph, and always have aileron trim in neutral position when disengaging combat trim
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Yeah Steve...you're so right...you know everything there is about aviation
This thread isn't about aviation. Or am I mistaken and you regularly fly 109's and 190's in real life?
Let me save you a post because I've seen it from you before. You'll say something stupid like "Just because you have been here 7 years doesn't make you an expert on the game." As in this thread where you said
So you're one of the resident "experts" in aerial combat...amazingly, I'm not impressed, should I be? I've learned more from real life pilots.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,268743.msg3360744.html#msg3360744 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,268743.msg3360744.html#msg3360744)
Well you're right, time played doesn't gaurantee someone is an expert on this game.
Let me give you one gaurantee though: You've spent 2 months in the game, you're not an expert.
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Ever get the feeling you've been here before? Deja vous?
Manual trim will not make you turn better in any instance, in any plane. EW, MW, LW obviously matters not, nor does manufacturer.
Manual trim will (in certain instances) improve your performance by allowing you to trim your plane in a more desirable manner than the Auto Combat Trim. That's because the Auto Combat Trim works at its best in the middle ranges of the flight envelope, with an airplane in a "clean" configuration (gear up, flaps up, no assymetrical ordinance).
If you're flying in the middle ranges of the envelope, in a clean configuration, you probably can't manually trim your aircraft any better than the auto trim already does for you.
If, however, you violate those parameters by flying very fast, very slow, with assymetrical ordinance, by dropping gear, flaps, etc, you can trim the plane better with manual trim. Examples of these instances could be during landing, low-speed turning (expecially with flaps), at the top of ropes, while damaged, and while flying inverted. In these cases manual trim is nice, because the Auto Combat Trim may actually trim you improperly. An example would be while reducing throttle for landing, where the auto trim keeps you trimmed for the torque effects of full throttle, even though you've backed off on the throttle. Another example would be at the top of a rope, where you're very near stall, and the auto trim has your elevator trimmed full up, which is actually not a great trim setting for that manuever. Yet another is when you drop flaps, which also causes the auto trim to dial in full up trim.
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I have noticed that by trimming by hand your plane will accelerate better than say just hitting auto-level (which obviously isnt the same as combat trim but needs to be said). The main advantage is in being aware that this is an option and also as to when it should be used. Obviously it isnt a good idea to type in '.speed 350' right after takeoff for instance...
:D
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So...then this report stating specifically "Elevator control forces are very heavy in a tight turn, requiring constant use of the elevator trim control." from tests conducted at Wright Airfield in 1944 on a capture FW190 are totally false... http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/eb-104.html (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/eb-104.html)
But then lets consider another flight sim "expert" from back in 2002...maybe things worked differently then: http://www.flightsim.com/main/howto/turning.htm (http://www.flightsim.com/main/howto/turning.htm)
Kick the rudder over to tighten the turn. Be careful not to give it too much rudder or you will stall. Ease it over. With proper trim, the Corsair will dance into the turn like a ballerina.
Let the plane fly itself through the turn.
Apply full throttle and war emergency power to accelerate out of the turn.
Pull up as plane rounds the turn axis.
Practice applying more up trim in the turn to give yourself a boost. Watch out for stalls and blackouts. Practice this until you get it right.
Never said it worked better than flaps but I guess using manual elevator trim in a tight turn doesn't do anything.
Yeah, deja vu.
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It is very very simple, if you pull all the way back on your stick and you stall, adding up trim will not make you turn better.
If you pull all the way back on your stick and are not stalling adding trim can put you into the stall edge and you would turn better.If you can all ready pull to black out, once again adding trim can not help you. Adding trim only helps you turn better when you are limited by stick force.
Also AH is not CFS and hence the trim systems can not be compared.
HiTech
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It is very very simple, if you pull all the way back on your stick and you stall, adding up trim will not make you turn better.
No argument on that.
If you pull all the way back on your stick and are not stalling adding trim can put you into the stall edge and you would turn better.
That is what's happening.
If you can all ready pull to black out, once again adding trim can not help you. Adding trim only helps you turn better when you are limited by stick force.
Noticed that...pulling to black out and adding trim makes it worse and to compensate you have to back off in the turn...great way to get shot down.
Also AH is not CFS and hence the trim systems can not be compared.
HiTech
Ok... and thank you for the clarifications. :salute
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Good Evening gyrene,
I am not sure to who your responses below were addressed to, but here is my view
So...then this report stating specifically "Elevator control forces are very heavy in a tight turn, requiring constant use of the elevator trim control." from tests conducted at Wright Airfield in 1944 on a capture FW190 are totally false... http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/eb-104.html (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/eb-104.html)
for this link you posted, why do you think anyone would assume this to be false?
#1 this is a real world test performed at minimal performances and handling...and as noted they found the controls heavy ( or in another word sluggish ) when in a tight turn, so the answer would be a definite TRUE or YES, it would be advised to use Elevator trim to lessen the burden on the pilots fatigue level, of pulling on the Stick....... still does not prove it makes the plane turn tighter..... the report never mentions that using or increasing trim makes the FW turn tighter, in that report...
But then lets consider another flight sim "expert" from back in 2002...maybe things worked differently then: http://www.flightsim.com/main/howto/turning.htm (http://www.flightsim.com/main/howto/turning.htm)
well, as I was typing hitech already chimed in...but for a simple test that anyone can do..launch your favorite plane to the runway and chop the throttle.......now trim your elevator to "middle" or "nuetral" position, now pull your stick all the way back / push your stick all the way forward ( look at it from the F3 view from the side.take some screen shots if you like for comparison sake.......
next trim your Elevator Trim knob/tab to Full up.now pul your stick all the way back.take another picture.compare with the first......you will surely see that there is no added / or increased distance...you can do the same for trimming the Elv all the way down and pushing the stick all the way forward.you will notice again.. there is no increased movement with the trim moved all way up or all way down for the elevator....don't take my word for it..check it yourself...
Never said it worked better than flaps but I guess using manual elevator trim in a tight turn doesn't do anything.
I said before, using trim benefits the pilot/player in the area of not having to use as much stick force... hitech just said the same thing.in his own words....
I hope this helps
edit: I see you posted while I was typing, good to see you clarifyed your thoughts :salute
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That is what's happening.
Riiiiiight
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Gyrene - Trim doesn't create any additional lift for the wings and/or elevators to carry you into a tighter turn.
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Too much trim will give you the opposite results of what you want to achieve. If I use the trim (rarely) I almost immediately go back to combat trim after the desired effect.
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Just to clarify what I said: At low speeds I use manual trim to adjust the plane to a neutral ...or slightly nose up trim. I never trim to make the plane turn tighter .....too much trim bleeds off energy
by the way ...Only in this game does the owner of the company make helpful comments and gives useful information ....Hitech ...you are truly to be commend ....what outstanding customer service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :salute
Helm ...out
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by the way ...Only in this game does the owner of the company make helpful comments and gives useful information ....Hitech ...you are truly to be commend ....what outstanding customer service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :salute
Absofrickinlutely spot on.
I was gonna say the same thing but I didn't want to look like I was trying to brown nose but since you did it first... :D...I'll just agree.