Need advice about manual trim

[Kermit de frog]

I've been using manual trim for the past 5 years.  I will continue to use manual trim 100% of the time as I do enjoy the challenge.

[TequilaChaser]

I've started using it to tighten my maneuvers in fights...(doesn't always work out for the best but I'm still learning the intricacies)...  

Elevator trim, does not help one turn tighter.....this arguement has been hashed out over time and time again......the only time you might gain by using Combat Trim or full up elevator trim when fighting another plane slow, is:

• when fighting against the same type plane and you use full up elevator trim and the opponent does not
• to help reduce the load input the pile-it has to make..ie Elevator trimmed to say 250 IAS level flight vs someone using combat trim or full-up elv trim. the person flying with Full-up or CT Trim will use less stick input, compared to the other guy having to pull more to accomplish the same desired result when the fight detreriorates to a very slow speed
• check out Lephturns wonderful write-up regarding "Using Trim in Aces High" @ http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/trim/trim.htm
  

it is beter to have some Elevator trimmed to where you would need to have a slight pull on the stick to maintain a "guns on solution" instead of using combat trim and experiencing the bouncing nose/gunsight dilema trying to maintain your gun sight on the target.....

do a search on this BBS regarding combat trim or trim controls or trim settings.....etc.......

me personally, fly most all planes to a trim setting of what the trim would be when the plane is flying level in max cruise speed ( top level flight speed )

from that point on all auto trims/ combat trims/ etc.are off and I do not mess with the trim.  So when I am going over the top and start to come back down, my plane is not fighting the automatically adjust CT that has my elevator trimmed full up....flying this way lets my plane quickly accelerate faster than if I had CT on and the plane is actually working against itself trying to regain speed.....

As Lephturn has noted/written in his Trim write-up  CT does hamper you when flying slow ( 150 mph or slower, or fly fast over say 400 mph )

hope this helps clear up any misunderstandings........

although it all is a personal preference, and what works for one person might not work for another......

[gyrene81]

envepope

LOL...what? 

The only time I actually use airleron trim is when missing half a wing

Push a 109 at over 400mph and you will use aileron trim more... 

Elevator trim, does not help one turn tighter.....this arguement has been hashed out over time and time again......the only time you might gain by using Combat Trim or full up elevator trim when fighting another plane slow, is:

• when fighting against the same type plane and you use full up elevator trim and the opponent does not
• to help reduce the load input the pile-it has to make..ie Elevator trimmed to say 250 IAS level flight vs someone using combat trim or full-up elv trim. the person flying with Full-up or CT Trim will use less stick input, compared to the other guy having to pull more to accomplish the same desired result when the fight detreriorates to a very slow speed
• check out Lephturns wonderful write-up regarding "Using Trim in Aces High" @ http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/trim/trim.htm
  

it is beter to have some Elevator trimmed to where you would need to have a slight pull on the stick to maintain a "guns on solution" instead of using combat trim and experiencing the bouncing nose/gunsight dilema trying to maintain your gun sight on the target.....

  Uhhh TC, I didn't say anything about using combat trim...but since you brought it up, combat trim in the LW rides doesn't do squat...but when flying one of the harder to turn 109s or a 190s manual elevator trim does help tighten the turn.

[TequilaChaser]

gyrene, did not realized I said you yourself specifically used Combat Trim... I did however say that elevator trim does not benefit people to be able to turn tighter....... although for some reason it benefits you aparently to help tighten the turn in 190's or 109s.......


was just trying to be helpful, nothing more nothing less.......

[Steve]

although for some reason it benefits you aparently to help tighten the turn in 190's or 109s.......

You're being too nice.  You know he's wrong, you just don't want to get into an endless argument with someone who will not admit fault. Hopefully noobs won't take his advice.

[gyrene81]

You're being too nice.  You know he's wrong, you just don't want to get into an endless argument with someone who will not admit fault. Hopefully noobs won't take his advice.

Yeah Steve...you're so right...you know everything there is about aviation we should all bow down to your 1337 uberness...

If I were the expert you obviously are I'd be playing WoW instead of trying to be an uber toon pile-it like you.

[Lusche]

LOL...what?  meant envelope


Push a 109 at over 400mph and you will use aileron trim more...  I'm frequently pushing 109's over 400mph, and always have aileron trim in neutral position when disengaging combat trim

[Steve]

Yeah Steve...you're so right...you know everything there is about aviation

This thread isn't about aviation.  Or am I mistaken and you regularly fly 109's and 190's in real life?

Let me save you a post because I've seen it from you before. You'll say something stupid like "Just because you have been here 7 years doesn't make you an expert on the game."  As in this thread where you said

So you're one of the resident "experts" in aerial combat...amazingly, I'm not impressed, should I be? I've learned more from real life pilots.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,268743.msg3360744.html#msg3360744
Well you're right, time played doesn't gaurantee someone is an expert on this game.

Let me give you one gaurantee though: You've  spent 2 months in the game, you're not an expert.

[mtnman]

Ever get the feeling you've been here before?  Deja vous?

Manual trim will not make you turn better in any instance, in any plane.  EW, MW, LW obviously matters not, nor does manufacturer.

Manual trim will (in certain instances) improve your performance by allowing you to trim your plane in a more desirable manner than the Auto Combat Trim.  That's because the Auto Combat Trim works at its best in the middle ranges of the flight envelope, with an airplane in a "clean" configuration (gear up, flaps up, no assymetrical ordinance).

If you're flying in the middle ranges of the envelope, in a clean configuration, you probably can't manually trim your aircraft any better than the auto trim already does for you.

If, however, you violate those parameters by flying very fast, very slow, with assymetrical ordinance, by dropping gear, flaps, etc, you can trim the plane better with manual trim.  Examples of these instances could be during landing, low-speed turning (expecially with flaps), at the top of ropes, while damaged, and while flying inverted.  In these cases manual trim is nice, because the Auto Combat Trim may actually trim you improperly.  An example would be while reducing throttle for landing, where the auto trim keeps you trimmed for the torque effects of full throttle, even though you've backed off on the throttle.  Another example would be at the top of a rope, where you're very near stall, and the auto trim has your elevator trimmed full up, which is actually not a great trim setting for that manuever.  Yet another is when you drop flaps, which also causes the auto trim to dial in full up trim.

[Chalenge]

I have noticed that by trimming by hand your plane will accelerate better than say just hitting  auto-level (which obviously isnt the same as combat trim but needs to be said). The main advantage is in being aware that this is an option and also as to when it should be used. Obviously it isnt a good idea to type in '.speed 350' right after takeoff for instance...

 

[gyrene81]

So...then this report stating specifically "Elevator control forces are very heavy in a tight turn, requiring constant use of the elevator trim control." from tests conducted at Wright Airfield in 1944 on a capture FW190 are totally false... http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/eb-104.html


But then lets consider another flight sim "expert" from back in 2002...maybe things worked differently then: http://www.flightsim.com/main/howto/turning.htm

Kick the rudder over to tighten the turn. Be careful not to give it too much rudder or you will stall. Ease it over. With proper trim, the Corsair will dance into the turn like a ballerina.
Let the plane fly itself through the turn.
Apply full throttle and war emergency power to accelerate out of the turn.
Pull up as plane rounds the turn axis.
Practice applying more up trim in the turn to give yourself a boost. Watch out for stalls and blackouts. Practice this until you get it right.

Never said it worked better than flaps but I guess using manual elevator trim in a tight turn doesn't do anything.


Yeah, deja vu.

[hitech]

It is very very simple, if you pull all the way back on your stick and you stall, adding up trim will not make you turn better.

If you pull all the way back on your stick and are not stalling adding trim can put you into the stall edge and you would turn better.If you can all ready pull to black out, once again adding trim can not help you. Adding trim only helps you turn better when you are limited by stick force.

Also AH is not CFS and hence the trim systems can not be compared.

HiTech

[gyrene81]

It is very very simple, if you pull all the way back on your stick and you stall, adding up trim will not make you turn better.

No argument on that.

If you pull all the way back on your stick and are not stalling adding trim can put you into the stall edge and you would turn better.

That is what's happening.

If you can all ready pull to black out, once again adding trim can not help you. Adding trim only helps you turn better when you are limited by stick force.

Noticed that...pulling to black out and adding trim makes it worse and to compensate you have to back off in the turn...great way to get shot down.

Also AH is not CFS and hence the trim systems can not be compared.

HiTech

Ok... and thank you for the clarifications. 

[TequilaChaser]

Good Evening gyrene,
I am not sure to who your responses below were addressed to, but here is my view

So...then this report stating specifically "Elevator control forces are very heavy in a tight turn, requiring constant use of the elevator trim control." from tests conducted at Wright Airfield in 1944 on a capture FW190 are totally false... http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/eb-104.html

for this link you posted, why do you think anyone would assume this to be false?
#1 this is a real world test performed at minimal performances and handling...and as noted they found the controls heavy ( or in another word sluggish ) when in a tight turn, so the answer would be a definite TRUE or YES, it would be advised to use Elevator trim to lessen the burden on the pilots fatigue level, of pulling on the Stick....... still does not prove it makes the plane turn tighter..... the report never mentions that using or increasing trim makes the FW turn tighter, in that report...

But then lets consider another flight sim "expert" from back in 2002...maybe things worked differently then: http://www.flightsim.com/main/howto/turning.htm

well, as I was typing hitech already chimed in...but for a simple test that anyone can do..launch your favorite plane to the runway and chop the throttle.......now trim your elevator to "middle" or "nuetral" position, now pull your stick all the way back / push your stick all the way forward ( look at it from the F3 view from the side.take some screen shots if you like for comparison sake.......
next trim your Elevator Trim knob/tab to Full up.now pul your stick all the way back.take another picture.compare with the first......you will surely see that there is no added / or increased distance...you can do the same for trimming the Elv all the way down and pushing the stick all the way forward.you will notice again.. there is no increased movement with the trim moved all way up or all way down for the elevator....don't take my word for it..check it yourself...

Never said it worked better than flaps but I guess using manual elevator trim in a tight turn doesn't do anything.

I said before, using trim benefits the pilot/player in the area of not having to use as much stick force... hitech just said the same thing.in his own words....


I hope this helps

edit: I see you posted while I was typing, good to see you clarifyed your thoughts 

[Steve]

That is what's happening.

Riiiiiight