Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on August 22, 2009, 03:14:09 PM
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http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/ (http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/)
Every now and then when I'm searching for something about our aircraft I come across this gem. The performance data is from Warbirds when the flight models were still done by Hitech. There were lots of arguments about which ones were inaccurate, with the P-38L being the target of a lot of complaints. Naturally, the complainers were called whiners and told that they must be complaining because they were being shot down. Here are some of the interesting changes:
Aircraft that have become faster at low altitude:
109G-6: ~11mph
109K-4: ~20mph
190A-8: ~10mph
190D-9: ~12mph
P-51D: ~ 5mph
F4U-1D: ~10mph
Aircraft that have become slower at low altitude:
Ki-84: ~7mph
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Aircraft that turn better in AH (sustained full circle in seconds):
109G-6: ~2 seconds less
109K-4: ~1.5 seconds
190A-8: ~2 seconds
190D-9: ~3 seconds
Spit IX: ~.5 seconds
P-51D: ~.5 seconds
P-47D: ~2 seconds
F4U-1D: ~1 second (smallest turn radius is 19% smaller in AH than in WB)
Aircraft that turn worse in AH (sustained full circle in seconds):
P-38L: 3 seconds longer (also takes 50% longer to complete a 360 degree roll at all speeds)
FM-2: .5 seconds
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Some aircraft writeups you might not recognize:
P-38L:
The P38L has been called in Warbirds, and rightfully so, the Super Plane. The P38L is Jack of all trades, and master of most. The P38L does practically everything well, it dives with the best of them, is fast, has excellent high altitude performance, rolls with the best of them, until beyond 275mph, where it leaves all other planes in the dust, outturns all but the Zero and Ki43, has an excellent climb rate, has one of the best and most accurate gunnery packages in the game (with the exception of Otto), and has plenty of ammunition to burn. It's only major weakness is it's huge planform, making it an easy target in some situations. Fortunately, it's exceptional roll eliminates it's predecessor's big problem of being unable to roll away when that huge planform is exposed.
Ki-84:
The Ki84 is one of the fastest planes around, about 10mph faster than an F4U, and able to keep up with a P51 on the deck. It isn't the fastest plane, that honor goes to the infamous Dora, but she is one of the few that can extend reliably from most planes, and once away, can reverse and deal with that pesky Dora on her own grounds. This plane also dives quite well, with full elevator use clear up to 550mph. Unfortunately the ailerons tend to lock up at about 350mph, so be sure you are trimmed using auto-angle trim to ensure you don't die due to ailerons-trim-induced roll. This is important to remember when chasing/being chased by a good high speed roller (P38L, FW, F4U, P40E, P47), as it's often best to pull up and force the target/opponent to retreat/overshoot/burn E.
Over all I would assume that we have more accurate flight models now, but it is interesting to see how things have changed. The German fighters seem to have gained the most in the transition between the old Warbirds and Aces High, both in speed and maneuverability (kind of hard to believe the 190D-9 turns better, eh?). The F4U-1D is also a much more agile plane in AH than it was in Warbirds, it is also more stable in a stall. The plane hit hardest is the P-38 series. It was about as common as the XVI/P-51D back then (maybe even more popular), and, of course, everyone said they flew it because of its history. :P
Aircraft that seem to have changed very little are the SpitV and IX, P-51D, P-47, FM-2, and F6F.
Ultimately, we have to remember that how these aircraft are modeled has never been perfect, and never will be. There will always be room for adjustment, tweaking, and sometimes even a major overhaul. It would be interesting if someone could compare changes between AH I and AH II along the same lines. Hope you enjoyed the read. :salute
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It's not going from WB to AH.
Even as recently as pre 2.15, the corsair in this game was a dog. NOBODY used it. NOBODY turned with it. It was worse than a P-47 in every aspect. All of a sudden it gets HALF the turn radius it used to get so whoopdedoo everybody's out-turning spitties in 'em now.
More to do with the airflow recode than with the plane specs per se.
Same issue with the LW planes and the airflow recode. 190As couldn't turn (even gently) under 200mph without nasty tip stalling. Not even steady turns. 109s had this wierd flop-drop-wingtipgobyebye issues sometimes, and it was odd as well. That got fixed with the airflow fix, as well as their flaps now being usable closer to 200mph (instead of the slower speeds before this).
A lot of little things changed in 2.15/2.16/whatever it was.
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So you're saying the early versions of AH were much closer to what Warbirds was, and it's only more recently that these changes have occurred?
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I would say it was night and day from WB, but the numbers probably were much closer.
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I would say it was night and day from WB, but the numbers probably were much closer.
Yes, but keep in mind that by the time AH was released, the WB flight models had been changed dramatically by iMOL.
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Krusty, i disagree about the F4u. I thought it was pretty darn uber even back in AH1. The Chog has always been a favorite mass vulch machine for the 2 weekers but even in ah1 it was common to see a decent hog pilot make a spitfire look foolish.
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I disagree totally Bat. The Chog was a big player because every hotard and his cousin could land 8 kills without turning. Vulching is another thing. Laying on the trigger for 60 seconds straight without letup... All bonuses.
It was NOT, however, a great turning plane. Sure you can force overshoots and pull some manuvers, but the same can be pulled in P-47s and P-51s. Before these super flaps, you NEVER saw anybody fly one. You took note because it was so rare. Only the dedicated USN pilots flew them.
The SECOND the airflow and flaps were redone, they started filling the skies. Any furball you went into suddenly had 2-3 of them.
And it wasn't because folks had been flying them all along, IMO.
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The SECOND the airflow and flaps were redone, they started filling the skies. Any furball you went into suddenly had 2-3 of them.
It wasn't immediately after but there was a trickle down effect from the newer guys watching, and later emulating, the vets.
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Even as recently as pre 2.15, the corsair in this game was a dog. NOBODY used it. NOBODY turned with it. It was worse than a P-47 in every aspect. All of a sudden it gets HALF the turn radius it used to get so whoopdedoo everybody's out-turning spitties in 'em now.
Plain wrong.
The F4U was always considered a very maneuverable plane ever since AH1, and some people used to either complain or make jokes along the line of 'it's only natural, since the F4U is HT's favorite plane' and etc etc.. There has been always a lot of ruckus and whines amongst the fans of other planesets that USN/USAAC planes are much too agile with flaps, and the F4U, along with the P-47 and the P-51, was always in the very center of this debate all through the years.
Although they may not have been as famous as some other vets in this community, I still remember and recognize two of my friends, raomi "RRaf" and "feed", as having been two of the best - perhaps THE best - F4U pilots during AH1 years, and I distinctly remember what they could do with the F4U in those days.. which, by the way, the two of them both flying exclusively the Dhog, and rarely, if ever, the Chog. It wasn't much different from the F4U nowadays, and I remember talking to RRaf and feed about how differently the F4U is portrayed in AH1, as compared to other games which usually portrayed them literally as "hogs" in maneuvering.
I would try refraining from making absolutist comments on things which you do not really understand, or have experienced.
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Sometimes, when talking about stall characteristics in here, I wonder if people call "nasty" stalls "gentle" because they are in fact "useful."
The Corsair as currently modeled has a very useful stall. The Spitfire, by comparison, has an almost worthless stall (at least as far as I can tell). Assuming I did not put myself into a flat spin, in real life, I would probably prefer to experience a Spitfire's stall, whereas the Corsairs would likely result in a change of underwear. In here, the Spitfire's stall means I've just messed up, and the Corsair's means I'm going for it.
Further, while I have no idea if the FM is accurate or not, I can guarantee you we get more practice riding the edge in here than any pilot, test or combat, got in real life.
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Well its subjective, but then most things are when you get right down to it.
First off I have to agree with Krusty, as much as it pains me to do so.
Once the airflow recode hit all of a sudden F4u's were out turning spits. Granted it took a few weeks for people to catch on, and to actually learn how to do it. But from that day the F4u use shows a dramatic upturn, and its still rising.
It took a plane that couldn't turn with a yak or La, and kicked it up to where it could out turn a hurri or spitfire with a good pilot.
Life altering event for Hawg drivers.
As to the F4u-4 its a monster, in the right hands at any rate.
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I'll chime in and agree, that airflow change patch was a major change. F4U's and 109's got whacked with the uber stick, the P-51 and 190 (among others, but those two were the most noticable) got castrated.
I have to admit, I find it hard to believe that the 190s could have been even less manueverable in an earlier sim and do anything other than fly in a straight line.
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I disagree totally Bat. The Chog was a big player because every hotard and his cousin could land 8 kills without turning. Vulching is another thing. Laying on the trigger for 60 seconds straight without letup... All bonuses.
It was NOT, however, a great turning plane. Sure you can force overshoots and pull some manuvers, but the same can be pulled in P-47s and P-51s. Before these super flaps, you NEVER saw anybody fly one. You took note because it was so rare. Only the dedicated USN pilots flew them.
The SECOND the airflow and flaps were redone, they started filling the skies. Any furball you went into suddenly had 2-3 of them.
And it wasn't because folks had been flying them all along, IMO.
Fair points. Maybe the difference is how the hog was flown before. Aggressive hog flying always seemed to pay off for me, just because that huge rudder and awesome flaps would aid overshoots and stall moves.
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So I can better appreciate this thread, would someone explain the airflow recode. What factors were changed that impacted the Hog family so much? Why did it only enhance that aircraft design? If HiTech has not hopped in here yet, I will assume this room of known vets and respected experts are close enough in your observations to validate your assumptions.
I don't fly Hogs very often. But I have seen in the Hog family some of the aforementioned changes. I was chalking it up to improvements I've made to my hardware and personal game skill.
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Would have expected the Spit V to be a lot different.
We went from the late LF Vc with Rolls Royce 55M & 120rnds to the earlier F Vb with Rolls Royce 45/46 & 60rnds
Unless it was the Vb in WB (never played it)?
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Would have expected the Spit V to be a lot different.
We went from the late LF Vc with Rolls Royce 55M & 120rnds to the earlier F Vb with Rolls Royce 45/46 & 60rnds
Unless it was the Vb in WB (never played it)?
Yes, it was the Vb back then, but without the drum fed Hispanos, i.e. it had 120 rounds per gun. Hoof even lists it as having a RR 45.
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Krusty, for God's sake, the Hog is an airplane that could land on the carrier at 75mph.
75mph is a pretty darn slow stalling speed by WWII standards. It SHOULD have a tiny turn radius with flaps.
It's not going from WB to AH.
Even as recently as pre 2.15, the corsair in this game was a dog. NOBODY used it. NOBODY turned with it. It was worse than a P-47 in every aspect. All of a sudden it gets HALF the turn radius it used to get so whoopdedoo everybody's out-turning spitties in 'em now.
More to do with the airflow recode than with the plane specs per se.
Same issue with the LW planes and the airflow recode. 190As couldn't turn (even gently) under 200mph without nasty tip stalling. Not even steady turns. 109s had this wierd flop-drop-wingtipgobyebye issues sometimes, and it was odd as well. That got fixed with the airflow fix, as well as their flaps now being usable closer to 200mph (instead of the slower speeds before this).
A lot of little things changed in 2.15/2.16/whatever it was.
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Not really BnZ, I don't think you can relate stall speed directly to turn radius as a general rule. Maybe I'm wrong but if we used that rule the C47 should have a tiny turn radius with flaps out. I Think krusty was more concerned with stability and CoG than turn radius?
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What factors were changed that impacted the Hog family so much? Why did it only enhance that aircraft design?
This is the key question. We've even had some threads discussing potential issues, but as of yet, I've not seen an explanation from HTC from an aerodynamic perspective.
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Not really BnZ, I don't think you can relate stall speed directly to turn radius as a general rule. Maybe I'm wrong but if we used that rule the C47 should have a tiny turn radius with flaps out. I Think krusty was more concerned with stability and CoG than turn radius?
In point of fact, "how slow can it fly" is the primary factor that goes into turn radius. Not rate, but radius, yes.
On one episode of "Dogfights" there was the case of a Corsair pilot who got into a flat scissors with a Val. Did not spin, did not end up out in front, throttled down, dropped flaps, got behind and shot the thing down.
The F4U had a nasty spin that was hard to recover from. I've seen pilots in AH put one in a spin and fall spinning all the way to deck. However, most pilots simply don't spin the thing, or anything else they are flying, very often in AH. Blame the stall-horn and the "buffet". Carrier landing in this game are super-easy as long as you remember to lower the hook, if they were not, THEN we might have real occasion to see why this thing was called "ensign eliminator". Ironically, in-game landing on a runway is where you are more liable to run into the plane's "bad side".
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In point of fact, "how slow can it fly" is the primary factor that goes into turn radius. Not rate, but radius, yes.
ah indeed, that is my error, i was thinking of turn rate not radius. Thanks for the correction. :o
SO the radius can be very small but a bigger plane would probably be flying at a much slower speed round the circle?
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ah indeed, that is my error, i was thinking of turn rate not radius. Thanks for the correction. :o
SO the radius can be very small but a bigger plane would probably be flying at a much slower speed round the circle?
Absolutely.
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This is the key question. We've even had some threads discussing potential issues, but as of yet, I've not seen an explanation from HTC from an aerodynamic perspective.
Actually I believe Hitech and Pyro both said that absolutely nothing changed with the flight modelling of any planes. I'd have to do some digging to find the exact quotes though.
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Actually I believe Hitech and Pyro both said that absolutely nothing changed with the flight modelling of any planes. I'd have to do some digging to find the exact quotes though.
This thread, and it speaks generally of some fairly important aerodynamic updates: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,173569.0.html
I've never heard a more voluminous explanation than what is listed in that thread, nor do I have any idea how much these changes impacted the whole plane set, from a relative perspective. We all know that the F4U saw a benefit (with flaps) and that the Pony saw some performance loss (without flaps). Given that both of these apparent changes involved low-speed performance, I assume it wasn't merely from flaps.
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Even as recently as pre 2.15, the corsair in this game was a dog. NOBODY used it. NOBODY turned with it. It was worse than a P-47 in every aspect. All of a sudden it gets HALF the turn radius it used to get so whoopdedoo everybody's out-turning spitties in 'em now.
Sorry krusty but that's not true - sometimes I wonder if you're playing the same game as the rest of us. There have been plenty of good hog drivers across the years (torque was nasty) and the CV's always encouraged hog use. I wonder what HT rates your post on the 'krusty scale' :)
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You forgot about the Ki-61.
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You forgot about the Ki-61.
It's turn went down with the Pony's didn't it?
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Yes, I forgot that one, but same thing on clean turning as the Pony.
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It's turn went down with the Pony's didn't it?
Ki-61 pretty much turned with the FM-2 in WWII testing. Not in here though and I can get it turning tight, but could only imagine if the numbers were "closer" to the FM-2.
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The F4's zoom is less than AH1. You could get all your alt back from a 6-8k dive IIRC