Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: detch01 on August 24, 2009, 06:38:58 PM
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Forthe entertainment value alone.... take the perks off the SpitXIV and put them on the XVI (call it a typo if you need to).
asw
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It would be nice to see the outcome of this change.
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It would be nice to see the outcome of this change.
You would see less Spit 16s.... no need to give it a try to know this.
Forthe entertainment value alone.... take the perks off the SpitXIV and put them on the XVI (call it a typo if you need to).
asw
If it's for entertainment value alone - take the perks off the Tempest and put them on the P-51?
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If it's for entertainment value alone - take the perks off the Tempest and put them on the P-51?
:aok I'd buy that too.
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If it's for entertainment value alone - take the perks off the Tempest and put them on the Bf-109K4?
Fixed :aok
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Let's hold a giant dueling tourney with all the big "name" sticks fighting it out in every combination of fighter type imaginable, then perk/ENY the airplanes accordingly.
Only fly in the ointment I can see, Aces High version XXI would probably out by the time sufficient testing iterations of all possible combinations had been performed.
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I'm not trying to sound condescending, but again, I don't understand why the Spit XVI aggravates so many people. If someone could explain this to me, I'd be obliged.
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I have seen the light. I love the Spit 16.
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I have no problem with people flying Spit 16s, at least they will usually give you a fight. Its all the boring stat warriors in their bnz rides that spoil the game for me. What people fly isn't really the issue, its how they fly.
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I'm not trying to sound condescending, but again, I don't understand why the Spit XVI aggravates so many people. If someone could explain this to me, I'd be obliged.
Compared to a large chunk of the plane set, it is as fast or faster while simultaneously offering better maneuverability in turn and roll, and greater (usually much greater) E building performance, while possessing no tremendous weaknesses to offset these great strengths, such as a terrible gun package (gun package is actually one of the most lethal), bad dive handling, horrendous views, etc. Same problem as the La7...it just has too much strength in ACM (in a game that is supposed to be about fighter ACM) compared to too large a % of the other unperked planes.
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And that's why it has ENY 5. No need to reduce 16 numbers further by perking it.
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Compared to a large chunk of the plane set, it is as fast or faster while simultaneously offering better maneuverability in turn and roll, and greater (usually much greater) E building performance, while possessing no tremendous weaknesses to offset these great strengths, such as a terrible gun package (gun package is actually one of the most lethal), bad dive handling, horrendous views, etc. Same problem as the La7...it just has too much strength in ACM (in a game that is supposed to be about fighter ACM) compared to too large a % of the other unperked planes.
And despite all your blathering about it, it continues to neither dominate numerically nor in effectiveness.
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No changes needed to Spitfire Mk. XVI Status HTC. Carry on.
PS-By all means lower or eliminate the perk on the 14! :devil
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And despite all your blathering about it, it continues to neither dominate numerically nor in effectiveness.
And, we are of the opinion that this can't be caused by the numerous variables that aren't taken into account when pulling these statistics judging 'effectiveness', that we should ignore the performance numbers, and that anyone who tries to make a point contrary to this are all blatantly nubs and should 'lol lrn to fight spits'.
Edit: For clarity, it has been proven time in and time out that plane performance has absolutely no impact on use or effectiveness in the MA, see P38 J/L.
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Let's hold a giant dueling tourney with all the big "name" sticks fighting it out in every combination of fighter type imaginable, then perk/ENY the airplanes accordingly.
Only fly in the ointment I can see, Aces High version XXI would probably out by the time sufficient testing iterations of all possible combinations had been performed.
1v1 fights don't take into all the contingencies of Eny though. Take for example, the Bf110G2 eny 10.
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Edit: For clarity, it has been proven time in and time out that plane performance has absolutely no impact on use or effectiveness in the MA, see P38 J/L.
You posted that before and yet it has neither ever been demonstrated, let alone proven.
Post the proof or shut up. FYI, you're wrong about it.
I don't expect any response from you as you like to ignore challenges to your claims.
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You posted that before and yet it has neither ever been demonstrated, let alone proven.
Post the proof or shut up. FYI, you're wrong about it.
I don't expect any response from you as you like to ignore challenges to your claims.
Umm... I'm not sure exactly what you want me to post as proof.
F4U1C holds a higher K/d over F4U4, but the 1C gets used for more.
Much better performing fighter gets consistently beat by the fighter with more firepower, while being flown more often (by a substantial margin). Why?
P38J holds K/D over the L, even though the L is used more.
Probably as close to exact same planes as you can get holding different K/Ds. In this example, the more used plane has a lower K/D, opposite the F4U series example. Why? Simply because of how they are used in the game.
And what's up with the 'post the proof or shut up' line? Do you write your whole post to sound like you're passive aggressive on purpose or is it unintentional? I need proof.
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And despite all your blathering about it, it continues to neither dominate numerically nor in effectiveness.
Which, as Olskool has already pointed out, is meaningless. (See the stats of the P38J vs. the P38L. Obviously the 38J is the better airplane, right?) Especially considering that the Spixteen is a prime choice of both clueless noobs and people attempting to up under the vulch/semi-vulch. In the latter case, the plane's superior performance actually *worsens* it's MA record since it will be used against impossible odds precisely because people upping in that situation want every advantage they can get. By comparison, The Fw-190A5 actually has a better k/d ratio than the SpitXVI...while doing nothing better, EXCEPT being flown by fewer noobs and in an er, um, "safer" manner, and not being upped under the vulch.
Karnak, your ceaseless hostility gets a little old. I try to keep things civil, state facts, and you do things like accuse me of "blathering". I could give voice to my thoughts about incredibly shallow and idiotic it is to base the perk/ENY system on a lowest-common denominator popularity contest. But even though I have no real obligation to respect the ideas of those who think perk prices should be determined American-Idol style, instead of actually attempting to determine at what the best fighter planes are and pricing them accordingly, I am generally polite enough to not come right out and say so. You know, unless prodded. :D
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1v1 fights don't take into all the contingencies of Eny though. Take for example, the Bf110G2 eny 10.
Okay, augment the testing with some 2v2 and/or 3v3 contests then. That'll give appropriate weight to the advantage of top speed.
110G2 is higher than that of the Fw-190D9 and the 109 Kurt? That is literally insane.
EDIT: The 110G's ENY being higher continues to blow my mind...you mean that if Dastrdly, while flying a 110G kills me, kills my 109 K, he'll actually get *fewer* points than I will for doing the reverse?!?!?!....that is so :cry :cry :cry :cry that it actually becomes :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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I'm not trying to sound condescending, but again, I don't understand why the Spit XVI aggravates so many people. If someone could explain this to me, I'd be obliged.
You agree that some of the ENY values for planes are way off, right? Like maybe the P-47N or the 109K-4? Some people see the same issue with the XVI, i.e. it's about as good as some planes that are perked, but it doesn't have a price tag.
Personally, I'd rather see the price tag come off a few planes to rectify the imbalance, and if I had to pick one, it would be the XIV.
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Okay, augment the testing with some 2v2 and/or 3v3 contests then. That'll give appropriate weight to the advantage of top speed.
110G2 is higher than that of the Fw-190D9 and the 109 Kurt? That is literally insane.
EDIT: The 110G's ENY being higher continues to blow my mind...you mean that if Dastrdly, while flying a 110G kills me, kills my 109 K, he'll actually get *fewer* points than I will for doing the reverse?!?!?!....that is so :cry :cry :cry :cry that it actually becomes :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Yup. But the 110 is used more.
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Yup. But the 110 is used more.
Yeah...we should let the mishun' lemmings and history-channel-said-the-P-51-wuz-the-best-ever types define a plane's worth for us.
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Yeah...we should let the mishun' lemmings and history-channel-said-the-P-51-wuz-the-best-ever types define a plane's worth for us.
:lol
I'll give it to HTC, or whoever in particular did try to balance the ENY, there's a lot of variables to consider when working for gameplay balance and they came up with a pretty good system. But, I think it's been talked about enough to warrant a little attention to the discrepancies.
Edit: I want Karnak to poast moar.
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Okay, augment the testing with some 2v2 and/or 3v3 contests then. That'll give appropriate weight to the advantage of top speed.
110G2 is higher than that of the Fw-190D9 and the 109 Kurt? That is literally insane.
Obviously in the scope of a 1v1 fight, yeah the Fw and K4 can easily just rope the Bf110 and then slash it down. But the 110G can carry some decent ord, is devastating in a horde, and has enough ammo to easily rack up 20 lemming kills per sortie. Of course with that logic the 190A8 should also be Eny 10 or 15 since it is so ruthless when it just picks from the horde. There are discrepancies for sure. :)
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Obviously in the scope of a 1v1 fight, yeah the Fw and K4 can easily just rope the Bf110 and then slash it down. But the 110G can carry some decent ord, is devastating in a horde, and has enough ammo to easily rack up 20 lemming kills per sortie. Of course with that logic the 190A8 should also be Eny 10 or 15 since it is so ruthless when it just picks from the horde. There are discrepancies for sure. :)
So your argument is that a 110G can rack up many kills strafing the runway with 20-1 odds?. Grizz, what CAN'T rack up a lot of kills doing that? :lol
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Umm... I'm not sure exactly what you want me to post as proof.
F4U1C holds a higher K/d over F4U4, but the 1C gets used for more.
Much better performing fighter gets consistently beat by the fighter with more firepower, while being flown more often (by a substantial margin). Why?
I have never seen a tour in which the F4U-1C had a higher K/D ratio than the F4U-4. I'll grant it is possible, but it is not the usual standing.
P38J holds K/D over the L, even though the L is used more.
Probably as close to exact same planes as you can get holding different K/Ds. In this example, the more used plane has a lower K/D, opposite the F4U series example. Why? Simply because of how they are used in the game.
That is nothing like proof of your claim, in fact it is evidence of the opposite. The P-38J has a better K/D ratio because it is used by a smaller number of dedicated P-38 fans rather than by the masses who just grab the P-38 with the "highest" letter when they want a P-38, or worse, use one as a cruise missle.
Karnak, your ceaseless hostility gets a little old. I try to keep things civil, state facts, and you do things like accuse me of "blathering". I could give voice to my thoughts about incredibly shallow and idiotic it is to base the perk/ENY system on a lowest-common denominator popularity contest. But even though I have no real obligation to respect the ideas of those who think perk prices should be determined American-Idol style, instead of actually attempting to determine at what the best fighter planes are and pricing them accordingly, I am generally polite enough to not come right out and say so. You know, unless prodded. :D
I have gotten thus because you ignore any and all data that doesn't agree with your predetermined conclusion, coming up with excuses as to why the data is wrong or invalid. True, you aren't Krusty making up stuff wholesale, but you still ignore actual results in favor of theory. What is the point of even refering to data when your conclusion is already know? It is like talking to a young earth creationist.
Is the Spitfire Mk XVI an superlative fighter? Absolutely. Nobody that I know of says it sucks. Is it imbalancing? Well, that is a much more "organic" question. Sure, to my prefered ride it is a nightmare, but so are a good number of other aircraft I can mention, but is it to the arena as a whole? What advantage is there in perking it? It isn't dominating usage or K/D numbers and that means that regardless of its potential in the hands of an expert it is not having an excessive effect on the aircraft it is double superior to. The reality is that nothing about the Spitfire Mk XVI's performance in or effect on the MA remotely justifies perking it without also perking a whole slew of other aircraft, including the bread and butter P-51D.
So your argument is that a 110G can rack up many kills strafing the runway with 20-1 odds?. Grizz, what CAN'T rack up a lot of kills doing that? :lol
Spitfire Mk I. :P
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Bnz, it's true that you are pretty hard headed about points you make. You never concede defeats, not even small ones in arguments. You don't even acknowledge strong arguments, only your own as the end all be all. :)
As for the 110 you're right it probably shouldn't be Eny10 but it can turn decent and with those guns, maybe a more adequate Eny would be 25 along with the mossie... Or the mossie and the bf110 should be eny20. It's all open to interpretation.
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EDIT: The 110G's ENY being higher continues to blow my mind...you mean that if Dastrdly, while flying a 110G kills me, kills my 109 K, he'll actually get *fewer* points than I will for doing the reverse?!?!?!....that is so :cry :cry :cry :cry that it actually becomes :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
I wouldn't mind having a separate system for perk points and country balance. I'm not sure it's that important, but it couldn't hurt.
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You agree that some of the ENY values for planes are way off, right? Like maybe the P-47N or the 109K-4? Some people see the same issue with the XVI, i.e. it's about as good as some planes that are perked, but it doesn't have a price tag.
I think that the ENY values are well above my head, personally. They seem strange until I really try and see both sides of the issue, and then I end up deleting my post :)
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I have never seen a tour in which the F4U-1C had a higher K/D ratio than the F4U-4. I'll grant it is possible, but it is not the usual standing.
That is nothing like proof of your claim, in fact it is evidence of the opposite. The P-38J has a better K/D ratio because it is used by a smaller number of dedicated P-38 fans rather than by the masses who just grab the P-38 with the "highest" letter when they want a P-38, or worse, use one as a cruise missle.
Karnak, your explanation makes it perfectly clear how such stats can be warped by "cultural" factors and thus make it a perfect demonstration of the unreliability of such stats.
I have gotten thus because you ignore any and all data that doesn't agree with your predetermined conclusion, coming up with excuses as to why the data is wrong or invalid. True, you aren't Krusty making up stuff wholesale, but you still ignore actual results in favor of theory. What is the point of even refering to data when your conclusion is already know? It is like talking to a young earth creationist.
Look, maybe I'm not making myself clear. I don't CARE if a SpitXVI is taken up 99% of the time by a blundering noobs who barely maintain a 1:1 k/d or if the P-38J is flown 99% of the time by experts racking up k/d's and k/s's of 5+. I don't CARE if the Spit16 or any other plane gets 75% of kills/deaths or .75% per tour. The only thing I see as important about a free plane is how it stacks up to the other free planes as a fighter. I have the odd notion that perks/ENY should be about the actual value the plane brings to its operator, not its name recognition among noobs or its "coolness factor" amongst vets.
So if you think I'm calling you a liar when you mention stats about usage or k/d, don't worry, I'm not. I just don't see them as reliable indicators of anything important.
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I have the odd notion that perks/ENY should be about the actual value the plane brings to its operator, not its name recognition among noobs or its "coolness factor" amongst vets.
I think it has much to do with the value it brings to the base-taker, hence why the P-47N (not so great fighter, but great ord donkey) has such a low ENY and why the 109K4 (great fighter, not so great or donkey) has a relatively high one.
There are probably many other factors too, which is why I start confusing myself when I start thinking about ENY.
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Maybe so, Vudak, but any attempt to interpret a scheme from the current ENY values will end in failure. They are inconsistent and lack organizing principles.
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Maybe so, Vudak, but any attempt to interpret a scheme from the current ENY values will end in failure. They are inconsistent and lack organizing principles.
Apparently they are open for change, considering that many models have had changes made to their ENY over the years. If you can come up with a better way to organize it, by all means give it a shot. If it's good, it might be implemented.
Just a few suggestions:
1. Take into account ordinance capacity (include cannon in this ex. 110)
2. Take into account country-fight-balance (what planes would be very tough to fight when heavily outnumbered)
3. Take into account the need to have certain models usually available for sales purposes (P-51B)
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5 posts and the first utterly off-target post appears. Internet entertainment at it's finest - HT I withdraw the request, I've already had my fun :salute
Cheers,
asw
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Look, maybe I'm not making myself clear. I don't CARE if a SpitXVI is taken up 99% of the time by a blundering noobs who barely maintain a 1:1 k/d or if the P-38J is flown 99% of the time by experts racking up k/d's and k/s's of 5+. I don't CARE if the Spit16 or any other plane gets 75% of kills/deaths or .75% per tour. The only thing I see as important about a free plane is how it stacks up to the other free planes as a fighter. I have the odd notion that perks/ENY should be about the actual value the plane brings to its operator, not its name recognition among noobs or its "coolness factor" amongst vets.
So if you think I'm calling you a liar when you mention stats about usage or k/d, don't worry, I'm not. I just don't see them as reliable indicators of anything important.
That is an absurd metric to go by. You'd end up with a huge mass of chaos using that method. Theory cannot trump reality or you wind up with hangar queen perk planes and free planes getting 20% of a tour's kills. That is not a good way to design a game.
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Apparently they are open for change, considering that many models have had changes made to their ENY over the years. If you can come up with a better way to organize it, by all means give it a shot. If it's good, it might be implemented.
Just a few suggestions:
1. Take into account ordinance capacity (include cannon in this ex. 110)
2. Take into account country-fight-balance (what planes would be very tough to fight when heavily outnumbered)
3. Take into account the need to have certain models usually available for sales purposes (P-51B)
Check out this thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264759.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264759.0.html)
It's quite easy to come up with ENY values from the charts that you'll see there. You can emphasize or decrease the importance of different categories with a multiplier.
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I have never seen a tour in which the F4U-1C had a higher K/D ratio than the F4U-4. I'll grant it is possible, but it is not the usual standing.
Not going to comment on individual tour stats, but in 2007 and 2008 the 1C beat the -4.
That is nothing like proof of your claim, in fact it is evidence of the opposite. The P-38J has a better K/D ratio because it is used by a smaller number of dedicated P-38 fans rather than by the masses who just grab the P-38 with the "highest" letter when they want a P-38, or worse, use one as a cruise missle.
It is proof that the use of the plane by the average pilot of that plane is a variable that isn't (or can't be) taken into account when doing the math.
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That is an absurd metric to go by. You'd end up with a huge mass of chaos using that method. Theory cannot trump reality or you wind up with hangar queen perk planes and free planes getting 20% of a tour's kills. That is not a good way to design a game.
You are working under the assumption that going by simple numerical popularity and k/d numbers as put up by the whole MA population will more rationally reflect a plane's abilities as a fighter than making an honest attempt to compare performance (And by "performance", I mean not just speed and climb, but the whole range of maneuverability, firepower, handling, etc.) to other planes. This is a notion I reject, because I believe it has been demonstrated countless times that MA plane choices and success are not closely tied to a plane's worth. The D9 is at least as good as the Pony in the b'n'z role, yet remains far less popular. The Ki-84 is the non-Spitfire most similar to the Spixteen, yet remains far below that plane in popularity...the list goes on.
You are also working under the assumption that I CARE if if a given free ride is getting 20% of kills...I really don't if that ride is not clearly superior as a fighter to the free planes around it.
BTW...a *huge* problem with % of kills is that the masses love big gun packages to a point that is irrational, while potentially ignoring other more important factors. There is also the vulching problem...there is literally no telling what % of the C-Hog's total kills for instance come from nothing other than vulchs during CV attacks, which doesn't really reflect its worth as a fighter at all.
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Lol...a year of playing and i have a noob question... :P
Whats BnZing?
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You are working under the assumption that going by simple numerical popularity and k/d numbers as put up by the whole MA population will more rationally reflect a plane's abilities as a fighter than making an honest attempt to compare performance (And by "performance", I mean not just speed and climb, but the whole range of maneuverability, firepower, handling, etc.) to other planes. This is a notion I reject, because I believe it has been demonstrated countless times that MA plane choices and success are not closely tied to a plane's worth. The D9 is at least as good as the Pony in the b'n'z role, yet remains far less popular. The Ki-84 is the non-Spitfire most similar to the Spixteen, yet remains far below that plane in popularity...the list goes on.
I find it funny that I, one of the rare political "Liberals" involved in this hobby, am arguing that the market (player base) is the most effective gauge of aircraft value and you are arguing that it needs to be mandated by HTC (the government in this case), not that I know your actual political leanings. Just a funny thought.
You are also working under the assumption that I CARE if if a given free ride is getting 20% of kills...I really don't if that ride is not clearly superior as a fighter to the free planes around it.
No, I am not working under that assumption. I know exactly where you are coming from. I am saying you are flat out wrong though.
BTW...a *huge* problem with % of kills is that the masses love big gun packages to a point that is irrational, while potentially ignoring other more important factors. There is also the vulching problem...there is literally no telling what % of the C-Hog's total kills for instance come from nothing other than vulchs during CV attacks, which doesn't really reflect its worth as a fighter at all.
I don't think it is irrational, nor is it absolute. Yes, the N1K2-J has a good package, but it brings a lot of other things to the table too. The Fw190A-8 and Mosquito Mk VI have excellent gun packages and they see very low usage because of other performance shortcomings. The P-51D (yes, yes, I know, "Greatest fighter ever", "Best fighter of the war", "Its the Mustang!" hype) sees very high usage despite being armed with the standard American six 50s in the wings armament. The fact is, most fighters in WWII had cannons for a reason and the fact that most of the popular fighters have cannons is hardly a shock.
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Lol...a year of playing and i have a noob question... :P
Whats BnZing?
It stands for Boom and Zoom.
Here's the link to the Training Corps write up on it:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/bnz/bnz.htm
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I find it funny that I, one of the rare political "Liberals" involved in this hobby, am arguing that the market (player base) is the most effective gauge of aircraft value and you are arguing that it needs to be mandated by HTC (the government in this case), not that I know your actual political leanings. Just a funny thought.
Ummm...if I were to apply my political principles to this game I'd say unperk everything and let the chips fall where they may. No doubt about it, perking the Tempest, C-Hog, F4U-4, 262, and 163 IS basically propping up inferior models and taking away a large amount of the market share their superiority would otherwise earn. Such would also be the case if the Spixteen or La7 were perked. In society, not acceptable, in a privately-owned game for amusement, acceptable.
No, I am not working under that assumption. I know exactly where you are coming from. I am saying you are flat out wrong though.
Welp, it looks like you are unconcerned that the SpitXVI and La7 are flat-out superior as fighters to a huge chunk of the LW planeset. I am unconcerned that the HurriIIc gets 35% of kills and deaths in EW because virtually every other EW plane has an exploitable advantage which can be turned against it by a competent pilot. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.
I don't think it is irrational, nor is it absolute. Yes, the N1K2-J has a good package, but it brings a lot of other things to the table too. The Fw190A-8 and Mosquito Mk VI have excellent gun packages and they see very low usage because of other performance shortcomings. The P-51D (yes, yes, I know, "Greatest fighter ever", "Best fighter of the war", "Its the Mustang!" hype) sees very high usage despite being armed with the standard American six 50s in the wings armament. The fact is, most fighters in WWII had cannons for a reason and the fact that most of the popular fighters have cannons is hardly a shock.
IIRC, the 190 A-8 actually sees about as much use as the superior 190-A5, D9, or 109 K-4.
People may be ignorant about the Mossie Karnak. I think add 10-20 MPH to the Mossie's top speed and it would be one popular MA bird anyway.