Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on August 26, 2009, 09:54:51 PM
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I know it's been brought up before, but it's time to ask again: a small perk price for ordinance (bombs/rockets) could improve the game immensely.
Thanks! :)
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I never carry ordinace, but think of the other people who are not very talented in fighters, thego up heavy die and lose perks that are hard for them to earn back. I doubt that HTC will make this happen for this exact reason.
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I never carry ordinace, but think of the other people who are not very talented in fighters, thego up heavy die and lose perks that are hard for them to earn back. I doubt that HTC will make this happen for this exact reason.
We need some way to make bombing/dive bombing and living more attractive than the reverse option.
BTW, talent smalent. 90% of fighter pile-it'ing is learned.
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We need some way to make bombing/dive bombing and living more attractive than the reverse option.
BTW, talent smalent. 90% of fighter pile-it'ing is learned.
I totally agree with you. Im just saying that some people might complain and HT might not do it for that reason.
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Maybe give new accounts (with IP/etc cross-refluffied to avoid dupe exploits) a free period.. A month or two, or something.
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no
I hate vulches
I hate getting vulched
I dont want newer players to see the perk price of ords and up a pony/dora/la7/typhoon/f4u/p47/a20/yak9u/109/spitfire just to murder me either when i am taking off or when i am 1k away from base with 3 kills and a busted engine.
Also i dont like gv's and id much rather not have to pay for ords when i need to bust up that wirble in town.
it mostly depends on what price you are thinking of.
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I never carry ordinace, but think of the other people who are not very talented in fighters, thego up heavy die and lose perks that are hard for them to earn back. I doubt that HTC will make this happen for this exact reason.
You can always earn perks by strafing strats.
I was thinking 1 perk per 1k of ords.
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You can always earn perks by strafing strats.
I was thinking 1 perk per 1k of ords.
How Gamey. I though bombing then augering was gamey, isnt that what this thread is about?
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Ordnance guys, ordnance.....
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Maybe Anax is thinking of something where if you land successfully, you are not charged, just like with perk planes and vehicles.
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NOOO!!! :O
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You can't just simply slap a perk price on ords without any consideration to gameplay. You will have to think about the implications and probably adjust a few things more.
For eample, this was a more detailed aproach, though far from being perfect:
Why?
Main goal is to get a bit more diversity. Light bombers/attackers like SBD, TBM, Ki-67, ju-87 are quite underused in the LW arena, and that's not surprising when considering that our typical heavy fighter is usually carrying a way heavier payload
Basic changes
Current perks per plane stay the same. Added in hangar are perk costs for certain loadout choices:
All fighters:
Rockets: Free
Bombs up to 250lbs: Free
500lbs/250kg: 1 perk per bomb (I am aware that this is maybe a bit too strict)
1000lbs/500kg: 2 perks per bomb
All heavy bombers:
Bombs up to 1000lbs/500kg Free
2000lbs/1000kg : 1 perk per bomb
4000lbs/1800kg: 3 perks per bomb
Unlike plane perks, these perks are spend: Once you drop the bomb, the perks you payed are gone.
37mm gun package Il2: 5 perks
F4U 20mm gun package: 15 perks (Merging F4U-D and -C into one plane & pay perks per gun selection)
Future perked packages could be the 57mm on a Mossie, the BK 5 cannon on a Me 410 etc.
Balance considerations
Now when putting those changes into effect, it's quite likely that we would see simply a huge increase of 110Gs and N1Ks simply strafing everything down, as guns are much more potent than bombs vs. structures anyway: Currently the big gun package on the 110G is equivalent to 5600lbs of bombs, the N1k's guns are equal to 3000lbs of bombs!
In order to prevent this, all guns <=37mm should get their damage vs structures (only) reduced by half.
Note that the B-25H's 75mm isn't affected by that, as well all the tank guns (but not the Wirbelwind)
Getting perks
Now, it's pretty obvious that bomber perks are the ones you are gonna using for perked ordinance.
But to not penalize players that do Jabo stuff but don't fly buffs, there has to be a small change here as well:
All perks gained in "attack" scoring mode are bomber perks.
(Side effect: Milking strats won't give you perks for 262's anymore ;))
As the title already said, these are just some thoughts up for discussion. Not a polished wish yet, that's why I'm posting in AH General Discussions
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The way luche puts it, I think I will give this a +1 :aok
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Why not perk the A/C that have the 30mm and 37mm guns as a option? Wouldn't they kill more then ords or rockets can do?
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perk only the twin 1K setup on US planes and the 110G2.
Then flying attack in a 190 won't be such a stupid option :)
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Doh, I see now why my spell checker accepted "ordinance." Thanks for the correction.
That looks like a fine way to do it Drama Queen, a very good proposal. :)
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Nope.
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For most planes flying in most arena's 250lb bombs should be free.
2 1k bombs on a fighter could be perked, and no it wouldn't take a lot.
Bombs for bombers should be free, until you get into the realm of the grand slam's and tall boys, dam busters, etc.
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:huh
Why should ords be perked it would make the game really lame...
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no
I hate vulches
I hate getting vulched
I dont want newer players to see the perk price of ords and up a pony/dora/la7/typhoon/f4u/p47/a20/yak9u/109/spitfire just to murder me either when i am taking off or when i am 1k away from base with 3 kills and a busted engine.
Agreed to all. But I don't really care about landing kills just to get that little message unless I have like 15 kills or something. I will try to land to keep from getting killed, and getting the other guy a kill, but thats about it.
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Agreed to all. But I don't really care about landing kills just to get that little message unless I have like 15 kills or something. I will try to land to keep from getting killed, and getting the other guy a kill, but thats about it.
I actually do quite like seeing that message up there. I don't know why, it makes very little sense, except that my virtual-ego is somehow ever-so-slightly boosted by seeing it.
EDIT: And +1 on perked ordinance. I want AP rounds and HVARs in/on the B-25.
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Agreed to all. But I don't really care about landing kills just to get that little message unless I have like 15 kills or something. I will try to land to keep from getting killed, and getting the other guy a kill, but thats about it.
I dont really care about getting that little message either or i wouldnt have such a low KD.
The only reason i actually land before i run out of fuel is because my gunnery is absolutely atrocious and i usually waste all my ammo getting those kills in the first place.
or my engine was shot to hell. Cant really turn fight in a dora.
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:huh
Why should ords be perked it would make the game really lame...
a lot of the load outs we have for the game were rare.
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It's a lot easier for all the board elites to say they want ordnance perked when they have thousands of bomber perks with no apparent use than for the average AH pilot who doesn't have unlimited perks. Seems to me that this proposed idea would just limit noobs or the casual player, those who would be more likely to quit when such restraints are put on their occasional sorties. It makes more sense to add a couple more perked bomber aircraft if such aircraft exist (I don't know which, I'm not a ww2 expert).
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It's a lot easier for all the board elites to say they want ordnance perked when they have thousands of bomber perks with no apparent use than for the average AH pilot who doesn't have unlimited perks. Seems to me that this proposed idea would just limit noobs or the casual player, those who would be more likely to quit when such restraints are put on their occasional sorties. It makes more sense to add a couple more perked bomber aircraft if such aircraft exist (I don't know which, I'm not a ww2 expert).
I normally averaged about 300 bomber perks and survived on that amount for an entire tour and managed to get over 100 kills in it...ending up with 26 perks afterwards. Many people ask if we can get more things added to spend more perks on for bomber, plus a lot of these 1000lb loadouts were rare in WWII...but instead of limiting just a few it might be better to broaden out the plane set that has such restrictions...
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I normally averaged about 300 bomber perks and survived on that amount for an entire tour and managed to get over 100 kills in it...ending up with 26 perks afterwards. Many people ask if we can get more things added to spend more perks on for bomber, plus a lot of these 1000lb loadouts were rare in WWII...but instead of limiting just a few it might be better to broaden out the plane set that has such restrictions...
I don't think the ww2 rarity argument has any bearing on the game though. It's the old 'realism vs game play' argument. The real issue is if perking ordnance would improve the game and I don't see how it would improve anything. All it would do is make those players that have thousands of bomber perks feel special that they can fly the heavy loaded lancs and b17s and get use out of their perks. You Spikes, obviously have found how to use your bomber perks though :)
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I know it's been brought up before, but it's time to ask again: a small perk price for ordinance (bombs/rockets) could improve the game immensely.
Thanks! :)
The more I think about this, the more I'm inclined to favor a perk ordnance system based on historical usage in addition to a perk system for additional ordnance packages (i.e. perked HVAR rockets or parafrags for B-25s).
ack-ack
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This smells just like another "I want them to play my way" thread. It's tiring.
People, in the main, load up bombs to attack. The concept of attack now requires bombs to succeed in this game and has done since the day they changed the size of towns upward to encourage the use of bombers.
Attacks bring forth gameplay because the simple response to them is defence. The result is fighting. Fighting is needed for the game's success. The reason that each individual might choose to enter a fight would be as varied as the personalities present, but they have to start before you can participate.
If you want more fights then encourage more people to carry bombs. They will then use them to attack something, somewhere. This will encourage a defence, which will encourage an escorted attack etc..
If bombs and perks need any further entanglement then give people who carry bombs more perks, a greater reward, for handicapping their ride at the start of the fight. If you don't like people carrying bombs to "your" field then you already have powerful options. You can kill the ordnance completely at the base they are coming from or quite easily and readily exploit the advantages of the fighter over the bomb carrier and just shoot them down.
If you want more "pure" furballing in the MA you won't get it by stopping bombing or punishing bombers. You'll just get less fights. You will only get that by having an appropriate map in rotation, a la "Donut."
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This smells just like another "I want them to play my way" thread. It's tiring.
If not bombing and bailing counts as "playing my way," then guilty as charged.
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If not bombing and bailing counts as "playing my way," then guilty as charged.
How would perking ordnance stop bombing and bailing and lanc dive bombing? If the ordnance is perked I'm assuming that once you drop the perked ordnance you'd lose the perks...
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The price of ordinance would be small enough so that putting some of it on target and returning to base would earn the cost back. This isn't about totally hamstringing people who want to bomb, but rather about adding just adding a little bit of motivation to balance out the takeoff-pork-bail/kamikaze cycle. As things are now, if you want to pork as quickly as possible, there's absolutely no reason not to kamikaze or bail every time.
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How would perking ordnance stop bombing and bailing and lanc dive bombing? If the ordnance is perked I'm assuming that once you drop the perked ordnance you'd lose the perks...
It won't. My wish for a perked ordnance system based on historical usage is not meant to modifier player behavior (i.e. bombing/bailing or dive bombing in Lancasters) but rather keep it in line with the actual historical usage of ordnance. My wish stems from a discussion I had with Guppy on ordnance use with the P-38 and found out that they rarely used rockets, which I didn't know and thought P-38s routinely used them in ground attack missions.
I had to track down the quote, but here it is from another thread a while back. We were talking fuel loads and the bombs bit came up. The 474th carried 1000 pounders routinely from the Fall of 44 and dived bombed with them. They even carried 2000 pounders a few times and those had to be dropped at the same time.
Quote from the late Lloyd Wenzel
"Dan, We always carried full internal fuel on missions and kept tanks full for the reason
you mentioned. With weather in Europe you would never risk running short of fuel. There
was no payload we carried that needed reduced internal fuel-even carried two 2000 lb
bombs a few times. Had to use wooden sway bars that banged up the bird on bomb release
so we didn't do it often and 1k bombs were probably just as effective. Both 2k bombs had
to be dropped together-on pull out, the bomb shackle would come off from g force. We took
off on reserve tank and used enough fuel to make room for the feed -back from the
carburater then switched to drop tanks, then leading edge, main and reserve. The leading
edge tanks had their own boost pumps and a solenoid operated valve--you had to turn off
the main selector to confirm fuel flow. Less time to look for the Hun!!"
The Iwo 51s used rockets for the first time in May of 45. In theory they could carry 5 under each wing, but because they carried DTs they only had 3 under each wing. I've never seen any photos anywhere of WW2 51s carrying both operationally. I haven't seen any photo evidence of 9th AF or 15th AF 51s or 38s carrying rockets either. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, I just haven't seen anything to show it did. There are photos of Korean era 51s carrying either 500 pounders and rockets or napalm and rockets, but they of course were closer to the fight and didn't need DTs.
The 428th FS, 474th FG history has the loadouts listed for every mission they flew, and the never carried rockets. They were the last 38 group in the ETO right until the end.
The only photo I've seen of a rocket railed equipped bird is in the 49th FG history and obviously that would be a 38L. The comment there was when they did carry rockets they routinely didn't carry 20mm ammo. This was when the airwar for the 38s was essentially gone in the Pacific and when they were flying ground support in the Phillipines etc.
Basically, I would like it for historical reasons rather than trying to modify player behavior.
ack-ack
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The price of ordinance would be small enough so that putting some of it on target and returning to base would earn the cost back. This isn't about totally hamstringing people who want to bomb, but rather about adding just adding a little bit of motivation to balance out the takeoff-pork-bail/kamikaze cycle. As things are now, if you want to pork as quickly as possible, there's absolutely no reason not to kamikaze or bail every time.
No, your not hamstringing all bombers, but rather the guys who can't get a gunner, or whos gunning skills suck. You can't expect all the people who bomb to have good gunners, to gun good themselves, and that they will die once outa ammo, or in the middle of a mob. Lets say my gunning skills are average, and there for the ammount of times I land will drop, and there for my number of perks will drop, and the number of bombs I carry will drop, and the number of sorties I fly will drop. Its a spiraling loop leading to mass quiting by less than expert bombers and gunners.
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The price of ordinance would be small enough so that putting some of it on target and returning to base would earn the cost back. This isn't about totally hamstringing people who want to bomb, but rather about adding just adding a little bit of motivation to balance out the takeoff-pork-bail/kamikaze cycle. As things are now, if you want to pork as quickly as possible, there's absolutely no reason not to kamikaze or bail every time.
I think the bomb and bail problem is overstated. In the countless hours of playing this game I've honestly probably seen a bomber drop his bombs and then bail maybe twice. The other countless hundreds of times, he either got shot down, shot me down, or rtb'd. As for the kamikaze thing, I've seen this a little more often, usually at a carrier. Still, the better fix would be to put a cap on the ability of a bomber to drop bombs at too steep of an angle.
You're right though, if a player wants to pork and suicide there's no penalty other than the fact that he is a dweeb and everyone knows it. That goes for fighters too, not just bombers, and IMO, suiciding Fw190A8's are more of a 'problem' than this bomber thing. If a player really wants to suicide for good of country, then that's his choice. His penalty is people knowing what a putz he is.
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(http://www.nope.org/images/nope_logo2.gif)
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Count yourself lucky then grizz. I've seen bomb and bailers many more times than you.
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Count yourself lucky then grizz. I've seen bomb and bailers many more times than you.
Maybe I'm blind, Idk. I see more suicide porkers who will willfully dive down in jugs or a8s and strafe buildings as many times as they can before their plane is destroyed.
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Noooooooooooooooo! Jabos is one of the games most exciting features. I like it when I dive in wipe out a hanger and then mix it up some. Killed a cv in my F4U-1D yesterday. Even lived!! :x
As far as 110s are concerned, I caught 4 110s, a p51D, and a goon doing an NOE yesterday. I was fortunate to get the kills on them. They are not worth perking. They have worthy guns for sure. Just avoid the ho. I'm not sure what that P51 was doing he just flew nice and level so I did a low deflection on him and took out his radiator. He succumbed a few minutes later.
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If you want more fights then encourage more people to carry bombs. They will then use them to attack something, somewhere. This will encourage a defence, which will encourage an escorted attack etc.. No problem.
If bombs and perks need any further entanglement then give people who carry bombs more perks, a greater reward, for handicapping their ride at the start of the fight. If you don't like people carrying bombs to "your" field then you already have powerful options. You can kill the ordnance completely at the base they are coming from or quite easily and readily exploit the advantages of the fighter over the bomb carrier and just shoot them down. This concept is the most basic, but yet proves to be the most elusive solution to some. No ord bunkers: no bombs. No barracks: no troops & supplies
If you want more "pure" furballing in the MA you won't get it by stopping bombing or punishing bombers. You'll just get less fights. You will only get that by having an appropriate map in rotation, a la "Donut." Agree. In a way, this relates to your sig line.