Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Slade on August 29, 2009, 12:33:59 PM
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Hello,
I have a question for you P-47 experts. I was just wondering what the impact is on performance of a P-47 (say a N model) when it is light:
- 50% Fuel or less.
- No bomb or fuel tanks (or hard points for carrying them).
- Just the 6 x .50 cals with minimum ammo (yeah I know just).
Would this make a noticeable difference in turning and climbing ability?
Thanks,
Slade
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Yes
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Taking light fuel, no bombs and rockets, and not having the extra fuel tanks do make a difference. It is similar to a F4U with 75% Fuel in terms of how it feels, though minus the amazingflaps. However, according to Soda's Aircraft Comparison page, taking the 6 .50 cals with minimum ammo does not have a very noticeable difference in performance.
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Taking 6 guns negates what the Jug is all about.....ton of lead. Plane has hard points whether ya hang stuff from them or not. (MAYBE not D-11...not sure there) I fly N, always up with 75% gas (42 minutes at max throttle, ya have 17 min left in wings and aux after the obligatory 'main fuel' hit) Carrying eggs REALLY kills climb rate...with no eggs, sucks far less. Zoom ability makes up for it somewhat (oh yah, I'm definitely NO expert :frown:)
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BJ doesn't the 47 benefit from empty AUX the same way the 51 does?
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Learned this from a old friend ( :salute Buster!!!)
Firstly, burn your main tank first.. Reason for this: your aux tank is deeper within the aircraft and less likely to get hit (cause you to bleed fuel)..
Second, if you want to go light, take a D11 with 25% and a drop tank.. You'll be surprised.. Not quite what a 38G is on the deck, but floats kind of like
an F4U.. Fire at anything that is remotely in your flight path.. Always take max ammo load.. The weight difference is negligible if you run a light 6 gun load and you
will be nowhere near as effective..
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Keep in mind a couple of points:
The P-47N has the same range on 50% fuel that the D models have on 50%. It also has basically the same climb performance as the D-40 when weighted in this way for a fair comparison.
You'll save more weight by taking light ammo than deleting two of your guns. Having 8 .50s is kind of the whole point of the Jug. IMO the heavy ammo load should be taken as well, if you find it too heavy ya know how to get rid of it. :devil
Oh, btw, if you don't take the 365mph N and if you are so interested in maneuverability, then you might as well go with an F4U-1A. Rugged American engine-radial fighter that rolls well, dives well, zooms well, plus is faster down low on MIL than any D is on WEP, mostly climbs better, and turns substantially better. 6 .50s with lots of ammo will get the job done.
Hello,
I have a question for you P-47 experts. I was just wondering what the impact is on performance of a P-47 (say a N model) when it is light:
- 50% Fuel or less.
- No bomb or fuel tanks (or hard points for carrying them).
- Just the 6 x .50 cals with minimum ammo (yeah I know just).
Would this make a noticeable difference in turning and climbing ability?
Thanks,
Slade
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BJ doesn't the 47 benefit from empty AUX the same way the 51 does?
Never heard such...although it may be true, the @#%@#%@# prolific # of 'main fuel hits' is what makes me keep aux till last anyhow---under auto, aux>>wings>main about the time ya hit 'main' is when some ho'ing spitard lands a golden bb 20mm into afore-mentioned main
(also--"N" with 50% gas weighs 1200 pounds more than D40 with 50%--think N has 90-100 more gallons tho)
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Quite a dilemna there.. Unless I'm recalling wrong (very vague memory), the AUX in the 47 is furthest aft, just like in the 51 and 190s. So the tradeoff would be between agility (dodge more bullets thanks to it) and potential sortie-ending damage (maybe only because you didn't have the extra agility). Assuming AUX really is further back.
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The biggest factor in P47 performance is fuel load. The N model has the fuel load of about 5 109G/K. The N has more fuel load than the D, so 75% in D is the same as 50% in N. If you want to save weight, managing your fuel efficiently is the best way. Take less internal fuel, use the DT and cruise on lower RPM/throttle to extend your range.
The aux tank does seem to have some effect on performance. Not very significant though. I burn aux first but leave 25% in the aux as reserves.
I don't see the point in taking less ammo - take full load and just shoot it at the bad guys to get light. Spray till your heart content and when the counters reach 1000, then you have the small ammo load and start aiming better. You will normally start the fight on the offensive so this is not a problem.
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Second, if you want to go light, take a D11 with 25% and a drop tank.. You'll be surprised..
The 47N owns the D-11. I've dueled one vs the other from both sides (with comparable pilots), and either way the 47N came out on top.
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The 47N owns the D-11. I've dueled one vs the other from both sides (with comparable pilots), and either way the 47N came out on top.
More to the point, the P47N does *not* have to hang around and get owned by a Spixteen if if doesn't want to. :devil
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More to the point, the P47N does *not* have to hang around and get owned by a Spixteen if if doesn't want to. :devil
Yup, that's an even better reason to fly the N. :)
My loadout for the 47N is 75% fuel, convergence at 400 yards, and the BIG gun package. I don't worry about gunnery %, and to get rid of the extra weight, I often start firing from 800 yards out. The funny thing about the N-Jug is that its maneuverability is far superior to its reputation. Your success % won't be so hot 1vs1 against Spitfires and other turney planes, but you can surprise them from time to time.
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The P-47 D-11 is surprisingly turney and manuverable, as I recently was fought to a near standstill in my F4U-1 last night. And I'm not talking about fighting in the vertical, but in the horizontal, as if we were turney-birds. Don't underestimate the powers of a light D-11.
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Quite a dilemna there.. Unless I'm recalling wrong (very vague memory), the AUX in the 47 is furthest aft, just like in the 51 and 190s. So the tradeoff would be between agility (dodge more bullets thanks to it) and potential sortie-ending damage (maybe only because you didn't have the extra agility). Assuming AUX really is further back.
Found naught on internet regarding tank placement....but from observation, aux tank in N goes about 12 minutes, at 1 gallon every 6 seconds--thats 120 gallons...~ 6 pounds per gallon....720 pounds. That sure could have an effect, depending on placement
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light jug is great esp if one be used to loading it to the max. i don't take an N w/out 8 guns. i do fly the 25, 11, 40 light frequently esp when hauling ord.
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The P-47 D-11 is surprisingly turney and manuverable, as I recently was fought to a near standstill in my F4U-1 last night. And I'm not talking about fighting in the vertical, but in the horizontal, as if we were turney-birds. Don't underestimate the powers of a light D-11.
I never have, the D11 is definately the primary fighter out of the four of them. Whenever I see a D11 (since most 'new guys' don't fly the D11 or D25, theyd rather take all the ord they can get) I know it's going to get into a turn fight.
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I never have, the D11 is definately the primary fighter out of the four of them. Whenever I see a D11 (since most 'new guys' don't fly the D11 or D25, theyd rather take all the ord they can get) I know it's going to get into a turn fight.
According to Mosq's turn data, the D11 can turn a somewhat smaller radius than many planes, including surprisingly the C205 or any of the P-38s. Not so surprisingly several of the planes which have somewhat larger turn radii whoop the D-11 in turn rate though..such as the C205, the P-38s, the Ta-152, etc.
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The N has a great roll rate. And if you manage you E well you can go into a furball on the deck and keep your E while shooting at the baddies!
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Going from 8 guns heavy to 8 guns light saves you almost 500lbs. Going from 8 guns heavy to 6 guns light saves you nearly 1000lbs.
A N loaded to the same weight as the D40 will out climb and out accelerate the D model. The engine is much more powerful. The problem is that the fuel goes a little faster.
Try this for fun, at least once: Up a 47N, 6 guns light, with 2 small wing DTs and 25%. Use the DTs to climb and fly to the fight. Once you find the fight, drop the tanks and engage anything you can for the 15+ minutes you have internal gas left.
It outperforms all other Jugs this way, by a lot.
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Found naught on internet regarding tank placement....but from observation, aux tank in N goes about 12 minutes, at 1 gallon every 6 seconds--thats 120 gallons...~ 6 pounds per gallon....720 pounds. That sure could have an effect, depending on placement
Both the Main and Aux tanks are located between the leading and trailing edges of the wing, and therefore, don't cause a huge shift in CG at any point in burning a full bag of gas. The reason the fuselage tank in the Pony was so destablizing was it was behind the wing, with a relatively long moment arm, and therefore, created a lot of instability. The reduced weight for the P-47 is a bigger performance boost than any sort of extra maneuverability due to CG location. The Main tank is located right behind the firewall and in front of cockpit--sort of an "L" shape, with the bottom of the "L" fitting under the cockpit area. The Aux tank is behind the portion of the main below the cockpit. So, ironically, the main fuel tank hits you suffer in-game in the N should hit the Aux tank instead. About the only way to hit the main tank would be from an angle perpendicular to the fuselage in this area. Look at the P-47N POH in the Wiki--it has a schematic of the fuel system. Always take 8 guns, but take as little fuel as necessary, and keep the plane as light as possible. I almost always take the light 8-gun ammo package.
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I've heard rumblings that the "heavy" ammo load was rare, used only for ground strafing. I think our N got it by default (all the others had it), but I've since wondered if the pacific theater (with less to strafe) ever carried this weapons setup.
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Try this for fun, at least once: Up a 47N, 6 guns light, with 2 small wing DTs and 25%. Use the DTs to climb and fly to the fight. Once you find the fight, drop the tanks and engage anything you can for the 15+ minutes you have internal gas left.
It outperforms all other Jugs this way, by a lot.
...For the 5 minutes of WEP duration. If you lost the WEP, the N is the worst performing jug in every aspect except the roll.
I've heard rumblings that the "heavy" ammo load was rare, used only for ground strafing. I think our N got it by default (all the others had it), but I've since wondered if the pacific theater (with less to strafe) ever carried this weapons setup.
Also as far as I know, the 425 rpg was not used for escort duties. In real life, as opposed to AH, saving weight this way makes sense. Your chances of getting to shoot at so many enemies till your guns are dry were slim - if you saw any enemy at all. If they found the enemy, pilots were happy to empty their entire ammo load into 1 target and RTB with 1 kill. In AH on the other hand, you fight endless waves of incoming bandits. You will always find a target to shoot more bullets into and you will always want to return with more than 1 kill. The ultimate price to pay for this eagerness is a wounded ego and a quick trip to the tower. Real pilots would rather run out of ammo for a better chance of escaping alive.
Aside from that, the overloading of ammo was said to cause gun jams.
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The way I fly it is thus- Go heavy, stay light. I fly the D-11 mostly.
The Jug will burn tons of gas, and she thrives on the thin air, but she doesn't climb all that well.
The heavy ammo load should really be reserved for ground strafing and/or bomber interceptions. Those are the long protracted high speed dives where the extra weight won't hurt, and you're not pulling on the pole non stop.
The point of the Jug is air superiority. Come in with an advantage, force the bad guy to deplete all his energy, pin him down, then whack him over the skull.
You can't do that if you're constantly watching your fuel state. You're not supposed to be turning all that hard (and if you're flying the Jug correctly you really shouldn't be anyway), so you should always be losing energy in minimal states through your zoom climbs.
So, to recap- cruise at around 15-17K. Typically, that's how far your drop tank will take you, so pop it off to clean up, and you'll be cruising at a resepectable 380ish, punch wep and you're creeping up on if not exceeding 400.
From that position of advantage you should be able to attack with impunity.
Once your fuel gets down to 50%, you can get a bit more aggressive. At 25% you can furball with the best of 'em, but keep an eye on your altimeter. You will need 5,000 feet and WEP to clear out of a fight.
In an N, it's all a bit different. Save the WEP for when you need it, take 50% gas, and a drop tank. Same rules apply for the most part, but if you punch wep on the deck you're lookin at a significant speed advantage, and if you dive with it, you can run down a Mustang in short order.
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The 47N owns the D-11. I've dueled one vs the other from both sides (with comparable pilots), and either way the 47N came out on top.
It's just the opposite for me unless the N has an alt advantage.. Otherwise, I'll out turn an N model all day in a D11... I will give mention to the
N model's role rate, though.. Reminds me of a 190.. Comes in really handy especially when your going 500 miles an hour... :lol
And once the N's wep runs out, it's as good as over.... The N is substandard without wep.. It is the slowest, climbs the worst, turns the worst..
Unless there's an alt advantage and plenty of WEP available, the N model is just like any other Jug, only worse...
I'd take a D40 instead only because it's super easy to cause an overshoot in that ride..
But if you want to turn for a while, D11 is the way to go.. If you want to BnZ or fight it out with some high cons(very rare) the N is the way to go....
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ty Stoney.
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...For the 5 minutes of WEP duration. If you lost the WEP, the N is the worst performing jug in every aspect except the roll.
Wrong. Most folks assume this because the AH charts have the N loaded out with a lot more fuel, making it perform worse. You load it out similarly to the D40, and it is very close on military power. However, it leaps ahead when using its WEP.
Here's a sample of climb rates for example, where the 2 models are similarly loaded:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/71sqn/p47chart3.jpg)
When the 47N is lighter, it's even better still.
A light 47N (6 guns light, 25%) will eat a basic [edit: 8-gun] D40 every day of the week.
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I should point out that when loaded with the same gun package and fuel for similar "burn times" (50% vs. 74%) the N and D40 are basically identical.
I would assume they are pretty close in turning when loaded this way. Remember the N has a larger wing than the Ds. At the same weight it would have an even lighter wingloading.
Wrong. Most folks assume this because the AH charts have the N loaded out with a lot more fuel, making it perform worse. You load it out similarly to the D40, and it is very close on military power. However, it leaps ahead when using its WEP.
Here's a sample of climb rates for example, where the 2 models are similarly loaded:
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/71sqn/p47chart3.jpg)
When the 47N is lighter, it's even better still.
A light 47N (6 guns light, 25%) will eat a basic [edit: 8-gun] D40 every day of the week.
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The N has more wing area, and that translates into a few results you might not think of. Somebody once claimed the guns were a bit further outboard than the D models, for example.
Does that mean the flaps are longer, if the wing area is larger? I've not looked into it yet, just had that question pop into mind.
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The N has more wing area, and that translates into a few results you might not think of. Somebody once claimed the guns were a bit further outboard than the D models, for example.
Does that mean the flaps are longer, if the wing area is larger? I've not looked into it yet, just had that question pop into mind.
The difference in wing area is 20 square feet. Flap area increases by less than 2 square feet. It isn't as significant as weight is, but every little bit helps. If you look at the empty weights, the increased wing area is more than offset by the increase in basic weight.
Oh, and the guns are further out than on the D model. This is due to inserting an 18" wing section inboard of the landing gear.
My regards,
Widewing
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Why would anyone fly a jug with 6 guns?...that's basically an F6 that doesn't turn as well... at any rate, while wep holds, I find the N can do some nose-up stuff that other jugs fall from the sky trying to duplicate
(Thanks for the info Stoney, I never knew that)
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Same reason you would fly a 109 without the gondolas.
It's more than capable of getting kills with 6 guns. As are all US planes in this game.
Look, I'm not saying the 8 guns package isn't swell. I use it myself quite often when I fly jugs.
I'm just saying "try it once" during your AH lifespan. It may surprise you.
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Same reason you would fly a 109 without the gondolas.
It's more than capable of getting kills with 6 guns. As are all US planes in this game.
Look, I'm not saying the 8 guns package isn't swell. I use it myself quite often when I fly jugs.
I'm just saying "try it once" during your AH lifespan. It may surprise you.
Without 8 guns, you might as well be in the better-performing F4U-1A or a P-51D.
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That's like saying "if you only have 6 guns there's no difference between P-51Ds, P-40E,s F4F-4s, F6Fs, F4us...."
It's facetious to believe that.
You're trying to spin things in a way other than this entire topic suggests.
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That's like saying "if you only have 6 guns there's no difference between P-51Ds, P-40E,s F4F-4s, F6Fs, F4us...."
It's facetious to believe that.
You're trying to spin things in a way other than this entire topic suggests.
An F4U-1A is near as fast as a P-47N on WEP power below 15K, faster on MIL and is vastly more maneuverable.
A P-51D isn't QUITE as maneuverable, but it is a little faster at low alt, greatly faster on MIL, and climbs much better.
So yeah, the killing power that two 2 extra .50s bring to the table is pretty much what the Jugs have going for them in comparison to the F4U-1A or P-51D at the altitudes where 90% of the action happens.
Not a hard concept to understand Krusty.
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The P47 is "inferior" to both F4u and P51 at typical MA altitudes. 20+kft is a whole other matter. Taking 6 or 8 guns will not change that fact.
However, consider this: One of the few things the P47 excels at at all altitudes is to burn a lot of E for one good shot opportunity - which it better hit home with, because it will not build its energy back so fast and is left wallowing. 8 guns is 33% more firepower than 6. It might very well be the difference between a killing/disabling snapshot and merely damaged paint-job on your target. Vs. many opponents you will not get a second chance. In the MA you must make your kill FAST and get out and 33% extra firepower will do more for you than a small reduction in turn radius. When the latter comes into play you are very likely to die anyway.
Finally, the weight difference between the 6 and 8 guns is negligible compared with your fuel weight, unless you are very low on fuel and don't mind it - as in a duel. So, in the DA taking 6 guns may make some sense, but in the MA, the 6/8 difference will be blended with your fuel status.
Without 8 guns, you might as well be in the better-performing F4U-1A or a P-51D.
NO NO NO. A P47 pilot will rather fly a P47 armed only with his .45 and foul language, than be caught in a P51 or F4u.
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A P-47 at low alt in AHII without the 8 guns is like Rocky Marciano without his punching power.
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I have to agree with the 8 guns crowd here. Dropping down to 6 provides a negligible performance increase while drastically reducing firepower. It's the 8 gun firepower that provides the lethality in those oblique angle snapshots where you only get a splitsecond of fire on your target. However adjusting fuel/ammo load will make a more noticable difference in this plane than any other fighter in Aces High. If you really want to turn it into a hot rod, take the light ammo package and fire off half the ammo on the runway/takeoff. The majority of the weight is the ammo, not the guns and 500 rounds per wing is still plenty effective for short hops.
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I would smash the N model with d11, easily.
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Taking 6 guns negates what the Jug is all about.....ton of lead. Plane has hard points whether ya hang stuff from them or not. (MAYBE not D-11...not sure there) I fly N, always up with 75% gas (42 minutes at max throttle, ya have 17 min left in wings and aux after the obligatory 'main fuel' hit) Carrying eggs REALLY kills climb rate...with no eggs, sucks far less. Zoom ability makes up for it somewhat (oh yah, I'm definitely NO expert :frown:)
Wasn't it BJ who said, In all that excitement I don't know if I fired 3399 rounds or 3400 rounds, The question you have to ask yourself punk, Is do you feel lucky?! :rofl :rofl
Back on topic, yep a lighter plane turns better. However, deciding which tanks to drain first sure helps too.
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The P47 is "inferior" to both F4u and P51 at typical MA altitudes. 20+kft is a whole other matter. Taking 6 or 8 guns will not change that fact.
However, consider this: One of the few things the P47 excels at at all altitudes is to burn a lot of E for one good shot opportunity -
That's my game plan, in a nutshell :aok
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Wasn't it BJ who said, In all that excitement I don't know if I fired 3399 rounds or 3400 rounds, The question you have to ask yourself punk, Is do you feel lucky?! :rofl :rofl
Back on topic, yep a lighter plane turns better. However, deciding which tanks to drain first sure helps too.
I kill myself :rofl :rofl
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I don't know if I fired 3399 rounds or 3400 rounds, The question you have to ask yourself punk, Is do you feel lucky?!
:lol
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I don't know if I fired 3399 rounds or 3400 rounds, The question you have to ask yourself punk, Is do you feel lucky?!
:lol
"Deservin's got nuthin' to do with it." ;)
Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Apparently WW2 pilots felt 6 guns more than adequate. They're the ones that removed 2 guns to lighten it.
Also interesting to note, F4Fs and P-40s with 4 guns were felt too lightly armed, so these were increased to 6 guns.
Seems 6 50cals is the magic killing number.
Oh, and if you don't get a P-47 low and slow every once in a while it's like only BNZing with a 109K. You miss out on half the fun. As any other US plane flyer in this game, snapshots with 6x 50cals are still quite lethal.
I'll take the 8 guns option as well, but you shouldn't deride me for suggesting taking the minimum weapons load once in a while. You may learn a thing or two you never thought about one of your favorite planes.
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Apparently WW2 pilots felt 6 guns more than adequate. They're the ones that removed 2 guns to lighten it.
Also interesting to note, F4Fs and P-40s with 4 guns were felt too lightly armed, so these were increased to 6 guns.
Seems 6 50cals is the magic killing number.
Oh, and if you don't get a P-47 low and slow every once in a while it's like only BNZing with a 109K. You miss out on half the fun. As any other US plane flyer in this game, snapshots with 6x 50cals are still quite lethal.
I'll take the 8 guns option as well, but you shouldn't deride me for suggesting taking the minimum weapons load once in a while. You may learn a thing or two you never thought about one of your favorite planes.
Krusty, I'd like to see you and my wife get into an argument....I could come back 3 days later and neither of ya would give an inch :lol :lol
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Apparently WW2 pilots felt 6 guns more than adequate.
WW2 pilots didn't fly in the MAs.
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:lol :lol
I'd like to see folks stay on topic, m'self.... doesn't seem that's possible these days.
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Fact remains that if you want a plane armed with 6. 50s, there are at least a half dozen plane choices that are better than the P-47 at typical MA alts. 8 .50s (and in the case of the N, good speed) are what sets the Jugs apart.
Apparently WW2 pilots felt 6 guns more than adequate. They're the ones that removed 2 guns to lighten it.
Also interesting to note, F4Fs and P-40s with 4 guns were felt too lightly armed, so these were increased to 6 guns.
Seems 6 50cals is the magic killing number.
Oh, and if you don't get a P-47 low and slow every once in a while it's like only BNZing with a 109K. You miss out on half the fun. As any other US plane flyer in this game, snapshots with 6x 50cals are still quite lethal.
I'll take the 8 guns option as well, but you shouldn't deride me for suggesting taking the minimum weapons load once in a while. You may learn a thing or two you never thought about one of your favorite planes.