Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yarbles on September 07, 2009, 05:59:33 AM
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I have been in the game for a couple of years and get a k/d in fighter mode of 2:1 when all is going well. Most of this is achived by situational awarenees and bounce style atacks.
My ACM'S are very limited and I see others doing impressive things I barely understand especially in Axis V A llies arena.
Would anyone like to help me expand my knowledge??
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Have you looked at any of your films to see what it is others are doing, or even any furballing films, by anyone or any plane? If you watch a lot of them at 2x speed, with the trails on and from F5+F8 view, the fight for angles/energy becomes pretty intuitive.
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If you need to learn more maneuvers, you can Google ACM and you'll probably get some results.
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Basically I do Immelman, Rope, Bnz or boom and Zoom, Turn in vertical and horrizontal, overshhot type tactics and follow on, lead and lag pursuit all the basic stuff I think but nothing special.
What else is there???
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You have to tailor and mix&match each of these to fit each exact situation.. Textbook maneuvering is good to get your bearings, but almost every fight will require some variation from textbook standards. You also have to get the timing right.. The perfect reaction a second too late won't be good enough :)
If you grab a couple of films from your fights, I can help you debug them and suggest some things you could do differently.
Here's a page with some ACM from the web (http://library.thinkquest.org/3142/manuv.htm)..
An ACM manual from the actual Navy Air training Command (http://dasmuppets.com/public/moot/0d/P-1289_ACM.pdf). I'll take this one down in 48h.
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http://www.bss214.com/tactics/tacticsguide.html (http://www.bss214.com/tactics/tacticsguide.html) I usually just fly by the seat of my pants most of the time :lol but this site has some good info. :salute
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You can get a nice free .pdf with some maneuvers and information if you don't want to spring for "Fighter Combat" by Robert Shaw.
http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf
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You can get a nice free .pdf with some maneuvers and information if you don't want to spring for "Fighter Combat" by Robert Shaw.
http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf
I hve both but find them a bit dry. Might read in pursuit again though probably understand it better now.
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I hve both but find them a bit dry. Might read in pursuit again though probably understand it better now.
I don't think they were written with entertainment value being a high concern. I know I failed to understand much of what was presented my first time through, or how to apply it, because I didn't have enough experience yet. My second time through, the light-bulb flickered to life.
You probably already know all the ACM's. There aren't that many, and all the fighters use the same ones. They just use them slightly different, depending on the exact situation.
Like teaching someone to dance, you can show them how to move thier arms, legs, torso, and head only so many ways. It's up to the dancer to string the moves together to accomplish the end result. An immelman by itself doesn't do much, nor does a Split-S. But done correctly, in the proper seguence, speed, and timing for the job-at-hand, they can work wonders.
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Maybe as a starting point a list.
Immelman
Split S
Rope
Lead, Lag and Pure pursuit
Hammerhead (Which I hardly DO)
Basic bnz
Boom and Zoom tactic
Rolling Scissors (dont do that one either)
Barrel Roll (not so good on this either)
Overshoot and stall fight
Dive and Extend (or run)
Climbing in a spiral for position (if your plane out climbs theirs)
Turning in the horrizontal and vertical.
Any more?
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Yarbles,
fight a good dueller 100 times in DA or TA - film the fights and ask him what he think you should do different. Watch the films from his plane and understand what you should have done differently.
It's good to know the standard manouvres, but what really matters in a 1v1 is fighting experience and timing.
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you forgot British fighter pilot chit.
when all else fails improvise.
I have all week off work so look me up. Usually before 5pm as if the mrs gets back from work and her dinner isn't ready, i'm in the deep end.
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you forgot British fighter pilot chit.
when all else fails improvise.
I have all week off work so look me up. Usually before 5pm as if the mrs gets back from work and her dinner isn't ready, i'm in the deep end.
Thanks that would be great. I will try and arrange something, problem is I am at work this week :cry
What are you like in the moring I could go in late Thursday. Dont want to pin you down on Holiday but if you are free then pm me.
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At the bottom of our squad page we have posted the AHTC films if your interested in those.
At the bottom of http://www.fw190.org/
And yes those two references are dry, putting it mildly.
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Yarbles,
Disclaimer: I am not a trainer, but I feel I've accumulated a lot of experience on how to learn ACM.
Film those encounters where people do stuff you don't understand and look at it from THEIR first person perspective, keeping your own plane padlocked.
I find using the first person and thinking through the steps helps a great deal. Doing this (looking at first person, not necessarily through film though it can help), I finally understood:
1) How a rolling scissors actually looks when you're flying in one.
2) What a lag displacement roll is (a barrel roll variation - I was doing it, but I had no clue I was doing it).
3) How to use the barrel roll suite of maneuvers on an opponent. There are so many variations on the barrel roll that you can use this maneuver in basically any situation. The difference is in DEGREE - how much G to pull, how much roll... etc
As for everything else - you're fine on knowledge. All these are set piece maneuvers - they do not specify degree (how MUCH bank, how MUCH G to pull, how LONG do I hold it, at what point do I enter the turn). This you have to find by experience, but it's well served if you keep a few main goals in mind.
1) Reduce angle off tail when the bandit's too close and your nose isn't in position for a shot. You do this by using any of many lag style maneuvers from basic lag pursuit to high yo-yo to lag displacement roll.
2) When going for a tracking shot, align your wings with his.
3) Control closure using maneuvering first, throttle second.
4) Pull lead only when you are going for a shot.
5) Store energy by climbing.
6) Convert energy into angles by turning nose low.
7) The easiest shot comes when the opponent is slow.
8) The hardest shot is when the opponent is fast.
My thought process is rarely "what maneuver would be good here" rather... I think about those 8 points and fly my plane accordingly. To be more accurate, I don't even really think about those 8 points, I intuitively know them from flying that way for so long that I act on instinct according to those points.
Nowadays, I find that I die mostly by being stupid (which still happens quite a lot mind you), not by losing the ACM fight.
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Maybe as a starting point a list.
Immelman
Split S
Rope
Lead, Lag and Pure pursuit
Hammerhead (Which I hardly DO)
Basic bnz
Boom and Zoom tactic
Rolling Scissors (dont do that one either)
Barrel Roll (not so good on this either)
Overshoot and stall fight
Dive and Extend (or run)
Climbing in a spiral for position (if your plane out climbs theirs)
Turning in the horrizontal and vertical.
Any more?
Displacement rolls,
High/Low yo-yos, &
slice-back
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Displacement rolls,
High/Low yo-yos, &
slice-back
Thanks Ardy. Had a training session with Bruv (Was Great) and I have one with Spatula on Sunday.
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I don't think they were written with entertainment value being a high concern. I know I failed to understand much of what was presented my first time through, or how to apply it, because I didn't have enough experience yet. My second time through, the light-bulb flickered to life.
Same exact thing happened to me and I'm sure to many others(talking about the Shaw book). You really have to experience some of the things he talks about and get a feel for it before it starts making sense on paper. Then all of sudden it becomes fun to read because everything just starts clicking.
You probably already know all the ACM's. There aren't that many, and all the fighters use the same ones. They just use them slightly different, depending on the exact situation.
Like teaching someone to dance, you can show them how to move thier arms, legs, torso, and head only so many ways. It's up to the dancer to string the moves together to accomplish the end result. An immelman by itself doesn't do much, nor does a Split-S. But done correctly, in the proper seguence, speed, and timing for the job-at-hand, they can work wonders.
And that's why they call it an "art". :aok
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Same exact thing happened to me and I'm sure to many others(talking about the Shaw book). You really have to experience some of the things he talks about and get a feel for it before it starts making sense on paper. Then all of sudden it becomes fun to read because everything just starts clicking.
And that's why they call it an "art". :aok
Interesting
I am away hill walking in a few weeks with no computer so I will take shaw and have another go with it.
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like others have said there is only so much ACM, that means "Air Combat Maneuvers" a "rope" is not ACM, you use ACM to "rope" someone.
think of a duel as a dance, where your objective is to get behind your partner, you need to
judge your nme's E-state correctly, because if you cant do this The "ACM" that you use to out Maneuver your opponent will be wrong or mistimed giving them the kill shot.
initial Merge,is very crucial, this is where you will ether kill or be killed, learn to merge.
if you ever see me on, same name ingame, I would not mind at all going to TA and working on merging techniques.
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like others have said there is only so much ACM, that means "Air Combat Maneuvers" a "rope" is not ACM, you use ACM to "rope" someone.
think of a duel as a dance, where your objective is to get behind your partner, you need to
judge your nme's E-state correctly, because if you cant do this The "ACM" that you use to out Maneuver your opponent will be wrong or mistimed giving them the kill shot.
initial Merge,is very crucial, this is where you will ether kill or be killed, learn to merge.
if you ever see me on, same name ingame, I would not mind at all going to TA and working on merging techniques.
Thanks :salute
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...you forgot British fighter pilot chit.
when all else fails improvise...
:aok
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ACM is a little bit like dancing.
Doon't you feel like dancinggg...
Salsa anyone? ;)
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ACM is a little bit like dancing.
Doon't you feel like dancinggg...
Salsa anyone? ;)
Dance of death :devil
Anyway I have 2 new moves now.
Barrel roll reverse and Zoom and rope showing a bit of tail now and again to lure them in :x
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Basically I do Immelman, Rope, Bnz or boom and Zoom, Turn in vertical and horrizontal, overshhot type tactics and follow on, lead and lag pursuit all the basic stuff I think but nothing special.
What else is there???
Like others have said there's only a limited number of ACM's and it sounds like you know and understand most of them.
The "art" is in the combinations of ACMs and the use of throttle, rudder and flaps at the appropriate times to achive the desired results. This is where film study can help.
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Like others have said there's only a limited number of ACM's and it sounds like you know and understand most of them.
The "art" is in the combinations of ACMs and the use of throttle, rudder and flaps at the appropriate times to achive the desired results. This is where film study can help.
May I add, brains to that list? :D
Mutley
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May I add, brains to that list? :D
Mutley
Only if you have some to spare :D
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Same exact thing happened to me and I'm sure to many others(talking about the Shaw book). You really have to experience some of the things he talks about and get a feel for it before it starts making sense on paper. Then all of sudden it becomes fun to read because everything just starts clicking.
qft. shaws book is very ... dense. first time I gave it a skim through and just picked out some bits I recognised in the ACM sections (eg. pursuit modes, lag displacement roll) and read the more general stuff on wing tactics etc. without trying to apply it directly, just letting it sink in. later I read it cover to cover (apart from the missile stuff) and started trying to apply it (key word here is trying ;)).
edit: the single most useful thing in there for me was the idea of combat spread :aok