Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: CVA on September 07, 2009, 10:38:25 PM

Title: Collisions
Post by: CVA on September 07, 2009, 10:38:25 PM
HTC, Please do something about collisions. It's bad enough fighting three planes at the same time, but to have someone try to Ho you, and collied with you stinks. What makes it worse, is that the jerk that runs into you, lives to fly off and land?? Why can't you make it so both planes go down on a collision and no one gets a kill? Just might lead to less hoing and more dogfighting.  Just my though..  CVA
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: BrownBaron on September 07, 2009, 10:41:36 PM
yea, i got a film of me in a Yak getting my WHOLE tail ripped off by a C-47.....killed by a goon.....ease my suffering HTC!
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: E25280 on September 07, 2009, 10:44:49 PM
CVA . . .

Below is one of many threads on the subject.  This one is merely the first on my search list of about a billion where the collision model is explained.  Please read and pay close attention to Bronk's pictures and WMLute's explanation.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,200667.15.html
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: USRanger on September 07, 2009, 10:59:36 PM
Until everyone has lightspeed internet, collisions shall remain the same.  Nature of the beast.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: texastc316 on September 07, 2009, 11:00:00 PM
(http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0907/final-facepalm-face-palm-fail-demotivational-poster-1248281712.jpg)

courtesy usvi
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: lengro on September 08, 2009, 01:57:51 AM
Until everyone has lightspeed internet, collisions shall remain the same.  Nature of the beast.

We already got lightspeed in communication lines, but even that isn't fast enough, it takes about 133ms for the light to travel around the earth.

CVA: Hitech can't fix nature - if you can't live with that, you either have to play offline games or LAN games.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Anaxogoras on September 08, 2009, 06:10:08 AM
We already got lightspeed in communication lines, but even that isn't fast enough, it takes about 133ms for the light to travel around the earth.

CVA: Hitech can't fix nature - if you can't live with that, you either have to play offline games or LAN games.


But what if we found the source code for him?
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: uptown on September 08, 2009, 06:40:33 AM
I used to feel the same way CVA. Internet is not real time. Until that time comes, things will remain as they are. We're all in the same boat. Lusche set me straight on that  :lol :salute
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: CVA on September 08, 2009, 09:33:43 AM
Thank you all. I believe I better understand the issue. Bottom line is like in the real world, you have issues you have to live with. Same in the cartoon world. got it. Somethings are beyond HTCs control. Thank you all for allowing me to better understand this issue..   CVA
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: CAP1 on September 08, 2009, 09:36:25 AM
Thank you all. I believe I better understand the issue. Bottom line is like in the real world, you have issues you have to live with. Same in the cartoon world. got it. Somethings are beyond HTCs control. Thank you all for allowing me to better understand this issue..   CVA

this isn not intended to be sarcastic........


go into the training arena. look for any of the trainers. they'll be able to help you learn to dodge the ho attempts.

 bigrat i don't thnk is an official trainer, but spends a lot of time in there, is VERY good, and ALWAYS willing to help.

i'm almmost 50% at dodging ho's now....but i fly a 38, which is harder to do it in.  :aok
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: waystin2 on September 08, 2009, 10:15:24 AM
Oh boy, here we go...
(http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/1/25/128773949277410297.jpg)
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: CVA on September 08, 2009, 10:58:31 AM
this isn not intended to be sarcastic........


go into the training arena. look for any of the trainers. they'll be able to help you learn to dodge the ho attempts.

 bigrat i don't thnk is an official trainer, but spends a lot of time in there, is VERY good, and ALWAYS willing to help.

i'm almmost 50% at dodging ho's now....but i fly a 38, which is harder to do it in.  :aok

I appreciate your comments, and believe me, I do avoid 50% of the hoing. It's the ho's you can't avoid that are killing me. However, I have learned so much about how this subject in the 12 hours, I am glad I posted it. I have an insight on the subject I never had before.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: B4Buster on September 08, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: CAP1 on September 08, 2009, 11:16:44 AM
I appreciate your comments, and believe me, I do avoid 50% of the hoing. It's the ho's you can't avoid that are killing me. However, I have learned so much about how this subject in the 12 hours, I am glad I posted it. I have an insight on the subject I never had before.

i'll post it when i sit down to eat...but i had a guy who';ll remain namless......in a 190. all he wanted was to ho. i got fed up with it, and was already damaged beyond making it back home(i thought), so i ho'd him back.  i have a shot of just how close we came to collision. it's a pretty decent pic really.  :D
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: APDrone on September 08, 2009, 01:06:13 PM
yea, i got a film of me in a Yak getting my WHOLE tail ripped off by a C-47.....killed by a goon.....ease my suffering HTC!

Anybody who collides with a C-47 deserves to lose.  It's not like you need to avoid them getting a firing solution on you..
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Bronk on September 08, 2009, 06:57:15 PM
All I can say is.. well done CVA.  :aok You read and understood. Much better than many in this community who read, looked at the pictures and STILL couldn't comprehend.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: BrownBaron on September 08, 2009, 07:10:50 PM
Anybody who collides with a C-47 deserves to lose.  It's not like you need to avoid them getting a firing solution on you..

I said TAIL, i slowed in a hard turn and the Goon came up behind me and rammed me with a 2MPH difference in speed, i lost my tail, he fly home.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: E25280 on September 08, 2009, 07:26:37 PM
All I can say is.. well done CVA.  :aok You read and understood. Much better than many in this community who read, looked at the pictures and STILL couldn't comprehend.
+1
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Lusche on September 08, 2009, 07:31:47 PM
I said TAIL, i slowed in a hard turn and the Goon came up behind me and rammed me with a 2MPH difference in speed, i lost my tail, he fly home.

Most probably he never hit you on HIS screen. No collision on his side = no damage.


The term "ram" is most problematic when being used in AH, as it ignores the whole two-realities concept.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: APDrone on September 08, 2009, 08:13:54 PM
I said TAIL, i slowed in a hard turn and the Goon came up behind me and rammed me with a 2MPH difference in speed, i lost my tail, he fly home.

I honestly don't care if he snuck up on you while you were afk and flew into you.  A C-47 has no guns..  there is absolutely no excuse for you to let him get close enough to hit you.  If your aim is so bad that you have to be within 100yards to fire, you deserve to die.   If your aim isn't that bad, and you were just being mean.. again, you deserve to die.  :t
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: CountD90 on September 08, 2009, 11:39:14 PM
I honestly don't care if he snuck up on you while you were afk and flew into you.  A C-47 has no guns..  there is absolutely no excuse for you to let him get close enough to hit you.  If your aim is so bad that you have to be within 100yards to fire, you deserve to die.   If your aim isn't that bad, and you were just being mean.. again, you deserve to die.  :t

I prefer to fly along side the goon and pull a Supertroopers. Just stare that cartoon pilot dead in the eyes for a few seconds before lighting it on fire with BBs to save cannon rounds...
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Scotty55OEFVet on September 09, 2009, 08:18:35 AM
HTC, Please do something about collisions. It's bad enough fighting three planes at the same time, but to have someone try to Ho you, and collied with you stinks. What makes it worse, is that the jerk that runs into you, lives to fly off and land?? Why can't you make it so both planes go down on a collision and no one gets a kill? Just might lead to less hoing and more dogfighting.  Just my though..  CVA
 

Be prepared buddy, I posted something like this a few days ago and boy did they laugh at me, lol.  I totally agree with ya...i can put 20-30mm rounds into a plane on a Ho course, watch him fall apart, have what plane he has left pull up into me, and yes, he/she gets the kill.  It is a broken system, much like the original NES and that damn push the game down 60 times, press power/reset 60 time.  Finally you get it to work and boom, the screen turns green.  HA HA HA :rock
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Lusche on September 09, 2009, 08:27:25 AM
It is a broken system


That may sound a bit harsh, but...

not the system is broken but your understanding of it.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: CVA on September 09, 2009, 09:44:06 AM
All I can say is.. well done CVA.  :aok You read and understood. Much better than many in this community who read, looked at the pictures and STILL couldn't comprehend.

Thanks, bronk your post helped make it easy to understand.. CVA
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: WMLute on September 09, 2009, 09:48:07 AM

That may sound a bit harsh, but...

not the system is broken but your understanding of it.

Don't want a collision? 

Don't hit them.

Simple and effective.

If you never hit the enemy plane you will never have a collision.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Lepape2 on September 09, 2009, 12:24:00 PM
Somehow, I managed to survive this HO... lived and landed. The other HOer never got to kiss mother earth; only one of his wheels did.

I guess HOs need indeed a little work, or rather the damage model. But, its fun anyway (not to HOs I mean  :D)

(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n150/lepape/Told-you-so-AH.jpg)
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Bronk on September 09, 2009, 03:15:27 PM
Somehow, I managed to survive this HO... lived and landed. The other HOer never got to kiss mother earth; only one of his wheels did.

I guess HOs need indeed a little work, or rather the damage model. But, its fun anyway (not to HOs I mean  :D)

(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n150/lepape/Told-you-so-AH.jpg)

Which ac are you? I'd like to see the whole film.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: LLogann on September 09, 2009, 03:20:56 PM
He's the Pony....... Flying away.  Both craft should have gone boom based on these screen shots though.

Which ac are you? I'd like to see the whole film.

Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Lusche on September 09, 2009, 03:22:52 PM
Both craft should have gone boom based on these screen shots though.

HIS plane - yes.

Both planes? You can't see from this screenshot how it looked for the other guy....
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: waystin2 on September 09, 2009, 03:26:19 PM
Both planes? You can't see from this screenshot how it looked for the other guy....

This tends to be the hardest part about collisions for most folks to grasp.  Once they do, most learn not to go there if it can be helped.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: LLogann on September 09, 2009, 03:27:20 PM
But the other guy is the guy who died sir..........  So?

HIS plane - yes.

Both planes? You can't see from this screenshot how it looked for the other guy....
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Lusche on September 09, 2009, 03:29:36 PM
But the other guy is the guy who died sir..........  So?


But still you can't give ANY judgement about him and his damage from this screenshot. It's very important in discussions about collisions to make that point as clear as possible again & again.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: LLogann on September 09, 2009, 03:32:25 PM
I agree wholeheartedly about the "2 worlds" idea.  But if the Pony took these photos and then walked away.....  Something is wrong with the collision model.  (OMG, can't believe I just said that)  Afterall, it's what your display shows you that is "your" truth.  As the other guy's monitors shows his.

But still you can't give ANY judgement about him and his damage from this screenshot. It's very important in discussions about collisions to make that point as clear as possible again & again.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Baumer on September 09, 2009, 03:37:30 PM
The discussion should be about the P-51 (if that is what Lepape 2 was in) flying away and landing. If Lepape 2 saw that on his end (while in the P-51) then he should have taken more damage, or an instant trip to the tower.

Just to be very clear Lepape 2, in that screen shot are you flying the P-51?
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Lepape2 on September 09, 2009, 03:37:53 PM
Yes here is the film: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mnnl30atuzo

Collision is at the 3:00minute mark

I was the pony and was a newbie by that time... I was playing for maybe 2-3 months


Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: moot on September 09, 2009, 03:39:37 PM
Collisions depend on position info which probably can occasionaly get a little messy over the net.  Like in that screenshot.  Maybe there's some positional/prediction funk caused by packet loss or something.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Shuffler on September 09, 2009, 04:03:37 PM
...all I know is that in any such case I should win... period.

For some reason they just try to shoot me down.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: APDrone on September 09, 2009, 04:16:14 PM
Without being able to see the film,..

Is it possible the pony driver scored a head shot and the software order of execution left the graphics in place with no longer rendering damage?

So, basically, the pilot was dead ( since there's no debris other than the wheel, this would point to a dead pilot ) before the planes 'collided.'

Eventually the damage resolution got around to removing the plane graphics, but it would be right after the collision?

Just a thought.

Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: lengro on September 09, 2009, 04:41:31 PM
Collisions depend on position info which probably can occasionaly get a little messy over the net.  Like in that screenshot.  Maybe there's some positional/prediction funk caused by packet loss or something.

I would think that the positional data used to calculate the collisions are exactly the same as those used to display the 3d models - hence network problems shouldn't be an issue in this matter. Since the film shows an overlap of volumes on Lepape2's computer, he should have gotten the "you have collided with..." message.

Maybe the collision detection runs at a lower frequency than the display engine, so its possible to miss the small time window when  two fast planes intersect? Could it be a film issue, i.e we are not seeing exactly what happened? /wild guess mode off/


Edit:
APDrone, I like your thought better than my guesswork  :aok (I should have read the whole thread before posting)
  
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: moot on September 09, 2009, 04:57:06 PM
No.. I've had a couple of those non-collisions myself. Survived them with no damage or collision after flying my cockpit thru theirs.  Some packet funk or the collision frequency are the only things I can think of though.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: dunnrite on September 09, 2009, 05:34:34 PM
But the other guy is the guy who died sir..........  So?


Somehow, I managed to survive this HO... lived and landed. The other HOer never got to kiss mother earth; only one of his wheels did.

I guess HOs need indeed a little work, or rather the damage model. But, its fun anyway (not to HOs I mean  :D)

(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n150/lepape/Told-you-so-AH.jpg)

I believe he is mentioning that neither plane went down.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: APDrone on September 09, 2009, 06:02:10 PM
I believe he is mentioning that neither plane went down.

Hmm.. I took that as the other guy disappeared.



Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: dunnrite on September 09, 2009, 06:03:47 PM
Ahh, maybe so.  Carry on  :o
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: CAP1 on September 09, 2009, 06:35:52 PM
seeing as there's pretty much 2 realities, during a fight....and when a collision happens, it creates confusion.....and in all obviousness, you cannot collide without getting kinda close...... :devil

ya know when ya hear that hollow sounding bang when a part from the other aircraft hits ya? well, i wonder how hard it would be to enable for those parts to cause damage to the aircraft they hit.
 this would sorta encourage guys to turn off a bit sooner, rather then fly right up someone's tail, wait till they're 100 ft back, pull hard, and wonder how they didn't miss.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: DREDIOCK on September 09, 2009, 06:59:59 PM
See rule #4, Spamming
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: CAP1 on September 09, 2009, 07:21:14 PM
Rule #4 Continuation.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: LLogann on September 09, 2009, 07:25:59 PM
In another language? 

He is saying, and flat out I might add, the other plane blew up...... Got blown away..... Bits & pieces...........  Only a wheel made it home. 

I believe he is mentioning that neither plane went down.

So what is up for debate?

An FYI..... "disappearing" means dead.  In every aspect of this game, no ifs, ands or buts.  Disappearing is dead. 

So do you mean the other plane disco'd?
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Sc00ter on September 09, 2009, 07:26:26 PM
Dughhhhhhh ROCKET!
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Lepape2 on September 09, 2009, 09:39:24 PM
I did not think I could start a debate by just making a small riddle describing the aftermath of a collision... :confused:

Anyway, the critical collision points on AH aircraft models may be lacking in numbers it seems. Maybe its possible to recreate the event but I'm sure its not that much worth investigating as there is little issues regarding AH's collision model right now. But, the model could use some improvement.

 I don't know if the only way to change it is to add breakable parts (hence more collision points) on all aircraft like the possibility to have not only a whole wing or half-a-wing rip-off, but a 1/4 or 3/4 of a wing rip-off as well. While were at it, why not progressive loss control responsiveness under damage or partial horizontal stab damage?

But that's off-topic  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: E25280 on September 09, 2009, 09:51:49 PM
Since the film shows an overlap of volumes on Lepape2's computer, he should have gotten the "you have collided with..." message.
Just remember when viewing your films, orange system messages are not recorded on the film viewer.  Hence when you collide, you will not see the orange "you have collided" message on your film.

Somewhere in the back of my head I recall a vsync issue that could cause the film viewer to show inaccurate position data compared to how the game views it (or vice versa) . . . but it is only a vague memory . . .
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: dunnrite on September 10, 2009, 05:17:25 PM
In another language? 

He is saying, and flat out I might add, the other plane blew up...... Got blown away..... Bits & pieces...........  Only a wheel made it home. 

So what is up for debate?

An FYI..... "disappearing" means dead.  In every aspect of this game, no ifs, ands or buts.  Disappearing is dead. 

So do you mean the other plane disco'd?


Can you not read two posts down before you start spewing bs?
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: LLogann on September 10, 2009, 08:02:19 PM
Continuation of #4
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: dunnrite on September 11, 2009, 07:52:24 AM
Hmm.. I took that as the other guy disappeared.




Ahh, maybe so.  Carry on  :o

I misread his post, taking it as only one of his wheels fell to the earth, and the plane kept flying.  It was a loooong day, and apologies back to you.   :salute
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: usvi on September 11, 2009, 09:02:52 AM
HTC, Please do something about collisions. It's bad enough fighting three planes at the same time, but to have someone try to Ho you, and collied with you stinks. What makes it worse, is that the jerk that runs into you, lives to fly off and land?? Why can't you make it so both planes go down on a collision and no one gets a kill? Just might lead to less hoing and more dogfighting.  Just my though..  CVA
:aok
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: SlapShot on September 11, 2009, 09:17:16 AM
you may be right on that....i dunno really.


i was fighting a guy the other night, and i think he seriously mis-judged the closure rate. i saw him go by me at about 500 ft off my wing. then i get the white message XXX has collided with you. he exploded...i got nothing.....but it surprised the poop out of me, seeing as on my screen, he missed me by a LOT. it was pretty unfair i htink to him.

 i'll hafta see if i can find the film.......

I don't agree with that.

I was fighting lligaf last night and he pulled hard real quick and directly in me ... I mean prop to prop ... it happened so fast that I could not avoid the collision. I looked down and all I saw was the "I collided with him" message as I plummeted to earth. OK ... no biggy.

I upped immediately and sure enough ... he was flying merrily along with no damage. He then messaged on "All" that he never saw the collision on his end and even apologized for the collision. Seeing that he obviously did avoid the collision on his end, I see no reason why he should suffer any consequence because I saw a collision. For him to suffer damage because of what I saw would be "unfair" as far as I am concerned.
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Shuffler on September 11, 2009, 10:09:41 AM
I don't agree with that.

I was fighting lligaf last night and he pulled hard real quick and directly in me ... I mean prop to prop ... it happened so fast that I could not avoid the collision. I looked down and all I saw was the "I collided with him" message as I plummeted to earth. OK ... no biggy.

I upped immediately and sure enough ... he was flying merrily along with no damage. He then messaged on "All" that he never saw the collision on his end and even apologized for the collision. Seeing that he obviously did avoid the collision on his end, I see no reason why he should suffer any consequence because I saw a collision. For him to suffer damage because of what I saw would be "unfair" as far as I am concerned.

 :aok
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: CAP1 on September 11, 2009, 10:22:37 AM
I don't agree with that.

I was fighting lligaf last night and he pulled hard real quick and directly in me ... I mean prop to prop ... it happened so fast that I could not avoid the collision. I looked down and all I saw was the "I collided with him" message as I plummeted to earth. OK ... no biggy.

I upped immediately and sure enough ... he was flying merrily along with no damage. He then messaged on "All" that he never saw the collision on his end and even apologized for the collision. Seeing that he obviously did avoid the collision on his end, I see no reason why he should suffer any consequence because I saw a collision. For him to suffer damage because of what I saw would be "unfair" as far as I am concerned.

gaf is a good guy. i love flying against him.

probably one of the nicest dudes in the arena.  :aok
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Shuffler on September 11, 2009, 10:30:02 AM
gaf is a good guy. i love flying against him.

probably one of the nicest dudes in the arena.  :aok

+1
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: LLogann on September 11, 2009, 11:52:30 AM
But.... But.... I apologized to dunrite here........ dunrite, I swear I did.

Continuation of #4
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: Shuffler on September 11, 2009, 11:54:14 AM
But.... But.... I apologized to dunrite here........ dunrite, I swear I did.


You apologised?? Was dunrite done wrong?   :P
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: LLogann on September 11, 2009, 02:15:27 PM
Well..... no, not really.  But all the same.  I get in moods and then type at a level I am not comfy with.   :uhoh

You apologised?? Was dunrite done wrong?   :P
Title: Re: Collisions
Post by: SlapShot on September 11, 2009, 02:29:11 PM
gaf is a good guy. i love flying against him.

probably one of the nicest dudes in the arena.  :aok

Agree 100%