Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: tokugawa on September 11, 2009, 01:15:12 AM
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Does anyone know the best corner speed for the spit 16?
Also, is there any links to all the planes corner speeds?
p.s. What do u guys usually set your convergence too? I have been playing with a bunch and have not found one I want to stick with. ..
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Sorry for the late reply. 160 without flaps and 115 with flaps for tightest efficient (sustained) turn. You can find any plane's such speed by listening for the buffet sound. The Angle of Attack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_attack) where the buffet sound just begins is the max performance AoA. The formal corner speed you can find using this calculator (http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Academy/AH_BootStrap.zip).
These corner speeds are listed on each aircraft's AHwiki (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/wiki/) page, although most planes don't have them listed yet as the wiki is a work in progress at the moment.
Convergence depends on a number of things. In a nutshell, you want the bullet stream to converge where you most often make your shots. This is mostly how far behind you are when in an established, continuous position behind the target, but can also be how far you shoot at targets trying to extend - if this happens often enough to warrant adjusting convergence for.
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Use this link:
http://www.major.geek.nz/AKUAG/Resources.aspx
It has all the stats you need to plug into Badboy's Bootstrap. I actually emailed the Excel sheet to Spatula, he's working on incorporating the corner velo and stall speed stats now.
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Thank you both!! Looked all over for this info.
p.s.
I take most shots from 400. but i find if i set to 400 then when i am pulling lead shot + hard G's ... I have to lead them so much more than if i set out to max convergence. Maybe I just need to get used to convergence at 400. But im so used to d650 when fighting in close. as I dont have to pull lead as much.
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How do you figure that convergence is reducing how much you have to lead?
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I thought....
When you are at d650 your bullets rise more over the nose when you shoot. to reach the distance at convergence.
And when you are set and d250 they shoot straight over the nose.
This is all in relation to your gun sites of course.
So It seems that when close turn fighting... I pull less for lead to hit with guns set to d650 BUT .... My bullets are more spread out so I do not inflict as much damage.
I am refering to the convergence tabs on aces high trainers site. It shows bullet drop in relation to gun sites including convergence figured into play.
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I thought....
When you are at d650 your bullets rise more over the nose when you shoot. to reach the distance at convergence.
And when you are set and d250 they shoot straight over the nose.
This is all in relation to your gun sites of course.
So It seems that when close turn fighting... I pull less for lead to hit with guns set to d650 BUT .... My bullets are more spread out so I do not inflict as much damage.
I am refering to the convergence tabs on aces high trainers site. It shows bullet drop in relation to gun sites including convergence figured into play.
That theory "works" to some extent, but isn't nearly as pronounced as you'd think.
The guns obviously need to be angled up more to converge at 650 vs 400 yds, but not all that much. I'm not going to do the math, but guns set at 650yds probably don't shoot more than a foot or two higher than guns set at 400, at a target 400yds out (the distance where you mention shooting)(and it'll vary for the different guns, but I'd hardly believe it could be more than 3-4 feet max).
So, yes, on a banked shot, in a turn, you could get away with slightly less lead, but only 2-4 feet less than if your guns were set to 400yds (which I still think is too far, unless they're nose-mounted, but you can find that info with a search)(there's too much to re-type it- one recent discussion was in the "109K4" thread). 2-4 feet less lead isn't really that much, especially when you realize that just the propeller diameter of many fighters in here is 10-13 feet...
And less lead, but at what expense? To have your convergence set at 650, but shoot at your target at 400, may mean some hits, but definately less effective hits (unless they were cannon rounds, I suppose...) Since this is a "Spit16" thread, with wing-mounted guns, and mixed caliber weapons, I'll go ahead and say I feel you'd be better off with a closer convergence.
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To have your convergence set at 650, but shoot at your target at 400, may mean some hits, but definately less effective hits
50% less often enough, with a convergence as long as D650. Your two bullet streams will be far enough apart not to complement each other much at all.
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Thanks again for the reply's
it feels like a bit more than a few feet. But I agree with you, the extra damage set to 400 make a huge difference. I played with d400 and once I got used to the lead time difference, I then saw the damage. It was night and day. I am going to use the d400 and get used to it more.
p.s.
The corner speed is the true speed (red tick mark) not the (white tick mark) correct?
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Indicated. You could be in a vacuum with some true speed but zero indicated, i.e. no air to lift your wings.
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That sentence explained more than you know... TY
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Indicated. You could be in a vacuum with some true speed but zero indicated, i.e. no air to lift your wings.
When I first started I had to look this up in Wikipedia. Perhaps the trainer site should have an article about IAS vs TAS?
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It's briefly mentionned here http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/gauges/gauges.htm ..
I'll do a write up for it on the wiki.
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It does mention it, but doesn't really explain the difference. I'd explain it along these lines:
"IAS is the aerodynamically relevant speed. Your stall speed in IAS is the same no matter the altitude, as is your corner velocity and best sustained turn speed. TAS only describes how fast you are travelling. For example, at 30,000 feet where the air is thin, you could have 200 TAS (meaning you are moving reasonably fast) but only 130 IAS (meaning your controls are probably very unresponsive) ."
Thanks moot, I'm sure a description would help a lot of players, especially those of us who aren't aero-heads. :salute
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Personally, I set my 20mms out to 600, and my .50 cals out to 250, as I would much prefer to use my cannons to take off wingtips than waste them on the flimsy tail sections of other spits.
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Hi
Maybe a tad off-topic, but any data about the AoA (Angel of Attac)k for these Continuous and Instant turn rates?
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You'd have to ask Badboy. He might be able to determine it. I can't think of a way to.
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Great thread. Great links :O thx all :salute
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Jazz You might also ask DTango.
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One thing I believe most players forget with regards to convergence is:
1> Trajectory. If the conv is set to 650 yards, then the impact at 200-400 are noticably high (most ait to air kills are well under 400yards).
2>the difference in trajectory each caliber has. Obviously, those fighters with an array of the same caliber guns need not worry about it (P51D w 6/.50 cals, etc). But aircraft like the 190A-8 with a pair each of 30mm, 20mm, and 13mm prove to be a challange in air to air duels due to the quite different trajectories of the 3 calibers. Setting the conv out to 650 in a 190A-8 is pointless. The closer the convergence, the more direct the impact will be, at least between different calibers, from your aircraft to the point of conv.
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Ok so I would just like to clarify a few things on here...
The first post asked what the corner velocity of a spit16 was and the response was 160 without flaps. 160 would be the best "sustained" turn speed as stated but this wouldn't be the corner velocity would it? I was under the impression that corner velocity (instantaneous turn) was not the same thing as the sustained turn speed.
If I am correct then when Tokugawa asked for the corner velocity of the spit16 wouldn't it be more in the range of 220? If I monitor my speed and maintain something around 220, isn't that the minimum speed that I can turn at max G's and therefore induce a better turn rate and radius for a limited amount of time (until my airspeed depletes due to G-load)? When I am monitoring my airspeed I guess I am just trying to figure out what speed I should try and maintain to allow the best possible turn performance.
Example: bandit on my 6 with a high closure rate... I want to force him to overshoot by pulling the best possible break turn I can in my AC of choice. In a spit16 for example, would I fly close to 160 or would that number be higher to achieve my desired turn?
Sorry about the long post but I'm new and just trying to come to grips with all that this game offers lol. Any help is appreciated!
-Tsubasa
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One thing I believe most players forget with regards to convergence is:
1> Trajectory. If the conv is set to 650 yards, then the impact at 200-400 are noticably high (most ait to air kills are well under 400yards).
Can you show this with the .target? Or with film on a relatively slow target?Ok so I would just like to clarify a few things on here...
The first post asked what the corner velocity of a spit16 was and the response was 160 without flaps. 160 would be the best "sustained" turn speed as stated but this wouldn't be the corner velocity would it? I was under the impression that corner velocity (instantaneous turn) was not the same thing as the sustained turn speed.
If I am correct then when Tokugawa asked for the corner velocity of the spit16 wouldn't it be more in the range of 220? If I monitor my speed and maintain something around 220, isn't that the minimum speed that I can turn at max G's and therefore induce a better turn rate and radius for a limited amount of time (until my airspeed depletes due to G-load)? When I am monitoring my airspeed I guess I am just trying to figure out what speed I should try and maintain to allow the best possible turn performance.
Example: bandit on my 6 with a high closure rate... I want to force him to overshoot by pulling the best possible break turn I can in my AC of choice. In a spit16 for example, would I fly close to 160 or would that number be higher to achieve my desired turn?
Sorry about the long post but I'm new and just trying to come to grips with all that this game offers lol. Any help is appreciated!
-Tsubasa
(Like I said in my first reply) You can find this proper "corner velocity" with Badboy's "bootstrap calculator" that's linked to in the first reply. In the spit16's case the proper corner velocity is 218 IAS, rate is 34.1 deg/s, and radius is 538 ft; and I did mention sustain corner velocity because it's a significant (i.e. a value not to be neglected) cornering speed in AH tactical circumstances.
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Example: bandit on my 6 with a high closure rate... I want to force him to overshoot by pulling the best possible break turn I can in my AC of choice. In a spit16 for example, would I fly close to 160 or would that number be higher to achieve my desired turn?
This would be at around 220 for Spixteen. If you look at the Excel sheet and mess with the numbers, you'll find most aircraft turn tighter at corner velocity than max sustained turn.
Definitions: corner velocity is the slowest speed at which you can pull max Gs. This is also the speed at which you can get the maximum instantaneous turn rate. That is, you will get the max turn rate, but only for a brief second. You can "sustain" corner velocity turn rates by turning nose low so that your speed doesn't fall during the turn.
Practical applications? Energy fighting - you bleed your opponent out of airspeed and energy. Say you are in symmetrical aircraft, both Spit9s. Somehow, whether through initial advantage or energy conserving flying, you are now both on the deck. However, he's turning at his sustained rate while you are flying a loose circle a little above him with enough energy to pull corner. If you time things properly, you can use your energy to pull in for angles to finish the fight. This will be because your higher turn rate will allow you to point your nose more quickly than he can maneuver out of the way. Ideally this would be done at corner velocity, but energy advantage can always be converted to angles.
Best sustained turn rate: this is the speed at which the aeordynamic drag from turning exactly matches the power output of your engine. This means that your turn is "in equilibrium" you are neither gaining nor losing energy assuming you turn level. This turn is always at the edge of stall hence why TnB can be referred to as stall fighting.
Applications: Turn/Angles fighting. If you have the higher turn rate, you'll be able to point your nose and take the shot better.
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Thanks a lot boomer for breaking it down I was having some trouble understanding it all. Great post!