Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: smoe on September 28, 2009, 08:35:51 AM
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:furious
Wow guys, I just discovered a hum dinger. This affects the realism of every cockpit and gun view in this game. I am thinking how I can be the first to notice this. Every cockpit view in the game has to be reexamined and modified. Sorry HTC, but you went too far with the F4U’s cockpit redesign and created huge blind spots that a two eyed person would not have in real life.
What I discovered is this game’s graphics are designed to replicate what a Cyclops would view. Yes that is right a Cyclops. You may ask why a Cyclops view? Because the VERTICAL pillars and frames are creating blind spots that a person with (2) two eyes would not have.
I have included a link to prove to myself and others that I am not that crazy, but I wouldn’t rule out a little bit crazy. See sheets 10, 11, & 12 to see an example of Stereo Vision (how a normal two eyed person sees behind thin vertical objects less than about 2.5 inches).
Link: http://www.cse.wustl.edu/MediaAndMachines/perceptionseminarresources/presentationGazihan.pdf
Also, if you don’t believe this link try this yourself. With your index finger pointing up and hand extend in front of you. Focus on an object at least 20 feet beyond your index finger and view with one eye at a time and the other eye closed. Then open both eyes, while still focusing on the distance object and what do you see? I bet you see two transparent fingers and the entire object behind your fingers.
My point being is that HTC is creating blind spots in the forward cockpit view (and side) that is limiting our view and making shooting much harder than in real life. For example, the F4U and 190 views may be horrendously incorrect. If the vertical pillars of these planes are less than the distance between a persons two eyes (about 2.5 inches). The pilot in these cockpits would be able to see an object travel left to right without the object disappearing behind a vertical (or near vertical) pillar.
My recommendations are:
1. Reduce the size of the vertical pillars to a thin line. Please start with the F4U and 190’s as these are used frequently. Resorting to the previous F4U’s cockpit view may be a quick solution for the mean time.
2. Or make the vertical pillars transparent. This option is good because the inside of the cockpit remain real.
3. Or don’t change anything and assume Cyclops ruled the skies in WWII.
4. Don’t forget the vertical window frames on the sides of cockpits have to be just as transparent.
PS. I thought of this issue when flying an A20. The A20’s cockpit view has skinny vertical pillars with limited blind spots. Also, check out the rear guns and try to fire them through the tale. Notice that the guns will not fire at the tale. However, one will fire while the other will not. Also, notice how the tracers can travel behind the tale. This is a perfect example of stereo vision. Think about it.
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Not to be a smart A but this is a game not RL! Comparing real life vision to whats rendered on a computer IMO would be like comparing apples and oranges! Yes they are both round and a fruit but taste totally different. Also there is a reason the guns on the A20 wont fire when pointed at the tail! Im sure you can fiqure out what would happen if you fired twin 50 cals at the verticle stab at point blank range of any plane! :salute
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Unless you have two LCD panels and a massive backlight that you can align at the same horizontal separation as your eyes given the distance to what you're looking at, there's no way to emulate two eyes in a game. The constantly varying convergence of eyes make it impossible.
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Good stuff.
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Not everybody agrees with your ideas...
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm134/waystin2/Picture5.jpg)
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:rofl
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You're kidding right? Some people have too much time.
Post number one.... and you've found an amazing fact. You can't have 3D binocular vision on a 1D screen. Where have you been all these years? <insert sarcasm>
You understand binocular vision...... but can't distinguish the difference between "T-A-I-L" and "T-A-L-E"?
It's a game. Enjoy it.
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OOOOps sorry we don't program the game. Looks like you posted your first post in the wrong forum. Might want to read the forum rules before posting. Your not the first new person to do this so don't take it to heart.
If your having trouble with the game I'd suggest posting in the wish list or emailing skuzzy. <S>
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The playing field is level. We all deal with the same thing, so it is a moot point.
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Ditto all replies.
But I would add that rather than screw up the cockpit art by making it see through or smaller. Maight I recommend setting a hat switch to move the head position? I have such a swith and I bob my head around to see object obscured by the window frames. Only complaint is that it scrolls a little slow, My head would move faster. But knowing HTC there is probably a head speed setting that can be set somewhere. I've been wondering about that anyway...so..
Is there a way to increase the speed of the head movement in the game?
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:huh
I had a long, well thought out, sarcasm filled response typed up... but I figured why bother.
:huh
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Ditto all replies.
But I would add that rather than screw up the cockpit art by making it see through or smaller. Maight I recommend setting a hat switch to move the head position? I have such a swith and I bob my head around to see object obscured by the window frames. Only complaint is that it scrolls a little slow, My head would move faster. But knowing HTC there is probably a head speed setting that can be set somewhere. I've been wondering about that anyway...so..
Is there a way to increase the speed of the head movement in the game?
Only way I know is to get shot in the head..... it moves to the tower extremely quickly. :D
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Only way I know is to get shot in the head..... it moves to the tower extremely quickly. :D
:lol
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LOL waystin were you get this stuff?
:rofl
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LOL waystin were you get this stuff?
:rofl
He has a large family.
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LOL waystin were you get this stuff?
:rofl
I have spent the entirety of my adult life(25+ years) in the Graphics field. When I heard cyclops, I thought of the cyclops in the Classic Sinbad movie from the 70's. I just drop the quotes in myself. You got to admit, the whole cyclops argument is funny. I know he is serious, but it is still funny. :lol
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... You got to admit, the whole cyclops argument is funny. I know he is serious, but it is still funny. :lol
Is he??
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If you get a pair of these, everything works just fine.
http://www.vuzix.com/iwear/products_vr920.html
You can even judge distance too.
I'm waiting for these ones to come out:
http://www.vuzix.com/iwear/products_wrap920.html
The Wrap 920's have the same "6 Degrees of Freedom" head motion tracker that Track IR has (or at least similar). So these would be literal virtual reality glasses. You'd have to turn around in your chair to check your six and you would have to position your head correctly to be able to see the gunsight. Could be really fun and immersive if you ask me. They were supposed to make the resolution better than the VR920's, but it looks like they are still 640x480 on each screen. Must've been too expensive to raise the resolution.
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The bait is strong in this one Jim. Git the net!
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(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l273/woosle_2006/vaderBS.jpg)
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Has no one heard of nVidia 3d glasses: http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_geforce_3D_VisionKit_us.html and 120Hz, 3d-capable monitors: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824001311&Tpk=2233RZ ?
Sure you'll have to sell important body parts, but the future is now!
...or use these screenies. Feel free to cross both eyeballs to look through canopy support beams:
(http://i33.tinypic.com/209ob2o.jpg)
(http://i34.tinypic.com/i4ogp4.jpg)
(http://i34.tinypic.com/25rpn9c.jpg)
(http://i36.tinypic.com/70w5nc.jpg)
(http://i38.tinypic.com/i6y0k1.jpg)
WARNING: You may (will) go cross-eyed! :O :lol
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I wish I was joking. All I say is prove me wrong and I will be a happy camper. :salute
I am not asking for fancy 3D imaging. I am asking to see an enemy fighter detail similar from a real WWII fighter plane cockpit.
(http://www.geocities.com/patgeith/CYCLOPSVISION.GIF)
PS. I used the word Cyclops vision because that is a more accurate term than mono-vision.
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We don't need to prove you wrong...it would ruin the immersion to have see-through canopy bars and true dual-origin focusing cannot be done on a single surface.
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Anyone seen my cooler? Damn it Shuff, you stole it again! <shakes fist>
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:lol WTF people put wayyyyyyyy too much thought into this game. :rolleyes:
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Welp, could this be why HT gave you a "neck"? Use the arrows and page up/down to move around those blind spots....sheesh, this ain't brain surgery!!!
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even your car pillars are a blind spot...I still have to move my head if I want to see something that is in front of that....unless it is directly in front and bigger than it even then there is still a bit of the said something I will not be able to see...It doesn't become see through.
Plus you get big red and green (unless you change it) icons that don't hide behind much
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Anyone seen my cooler? Damn it Shuff, you stole it again! <shakes fist>
My blender was running over .... can't waste the margarita/
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(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l273/woosle_2006/NoFramesSN.jpg)
Sorry... couldn't restrain myself any longer.
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Welp, could this be why HT gave you a "neck"? Use the arrows and page up/down to move around those blind spots....sheesh, this ain't brain surgery!!!
Thank you for my neck HT. :D
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This might help....
(http://z.hubpages.com/u/840641_f520.jpg)
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The in game pilot is modeled after Saburo Sakai.
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The playing field is level. We all deal with the same thing, so it is a moot point.
:aok
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The in game pilot is modeled after Saburo Sakai.
Well that explains it then! :aok
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The in game pilot is modeled after Saburo Sakai.
:rofl
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The in game pilot is modeled after Saburo Sakai.
I wish I had his skills. Maybe that can be modeled in just for me :aok
Cheers,
gus
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This new guy must be a software/hardware developer at the Virtual Reality Corp.............
Sorry dude, but the rest of us don't have that technology yet.
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Hmm I have only known about this effect for about Hmm since I started playing flight sims in 1990, Yep you sure are the first one to think of it.
Welcome to the fun of 3d world on a 2d screen.
Hitech
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is iEN giving up the ghost? the 10 yr misfits sure been poking in here alot lately.
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Hmm I have only known about this effect for about Hmm since I started playing flight sims in 1990, Yep you sure are the first one to think of it.
Welcome to the fun of 3d world on a 2d screen.
Hitech
So, is a stereogram patch coming down the pipe, or...
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Hmm I have only known about this effect for about Hmm since I started playing flight sims in 1990, Yep you sure are the first one to think of it.
Welcome to the fun of 3d world on a 2d screen.
Hitech
LIES!!!!! LIES!!!!!! Dale keep doing what you guys do best, provide some of us who enjoy WWII/aviation with a great game/MMO.
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i would have to agree with some of yawl this guy does have to much time in order o make this and to post about it. i sympathize with this guy but no one rally wants to read a really long post that goes on and on about a simple problem with vision use your arrow keys adjust your view to left and right compensate for it bro.
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Get Track IR and half yer "issue" will be solved.
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The guy has a point. enough said.
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what guy? what point? saying nothing might have been enough.
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So, is a stereogram patch coming down the pipe, or...
AH already works in stereo, some of us have been using it this way for a few years now.
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AH already works in stereo, some of us have been using it this way for a few years now.
Well, I mean the cross-your-eyes kind of stereogram... :D
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You're kidding right? Some people have too much time.
Post number one.... and you've found an amazing fact. You can't have 3D binocular vision on a 1D screen. Where have you been all these years? <insert sarcasm>
You understand binocular vision...... but can't distinguish the difference between "T-A-I-L" and "T-A-L-E"?
It's a game. Enjoy it.
Never mind, you already typed it
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I dont have track IR but I was under the impression it would fix this.
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Waystin,
I want Darth Vader in the ocean NOW!!!!! :devil
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We don't need to prove you wrong...it would ruin the immersion to have see-through canopy bars and true dual-origin focusing cannot be done on a single surface.
I have not seen any P51D pilots complaining about loss of immersion. It DOES have some see-through vertical frames, you know.
The question is, why only (afaik) Pony has them? 109s and 190s could use some of that same stuff :)
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"I dont have track IR but I was under the impression it would fix this."
In all actuallity TrackIR doesn't "fix" anything because in reality nothing's
broken. Can't get a 3D world on a 1D video screen
But getting oneself the equipment to over come the visual limitation (some-
what) to provide more immersion is (should be) a no-brainer.
For example, instead of using a mouse to fly with every customer has the choice
and freedom to get themselves a joystick or a full blown hotas to use. Can't afford
it? That's not a problem with the software.
So for those who want more immersion of a 3D world HTC has included the "virtual"
headmovement in the program. All one has to do is buy a trackIR. But if that costs
too much then simply make your own -> "free track." Can't or won't do either?
Then tough chit!
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The in game pilot is modeled after Saburo Sakai.
I'll look for the pilot model to be wearing an eyepatch in the next update. :aok
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I have not seen any P51D pilots complaining about loss of immersion. It DOES have some see-through vertical frames, you know.
I've never noticed them.
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I've never noticed them.
:D Yup, it is quite difficult, since they are transparent from inside.
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Sounds like a modeling glitch more than a feature. :)
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Some pics in this old thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,165351.msg1875042.html#msg1875042
And this old gif animation :)
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34/kuvat/bk/p51_view.gif)
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Hadn't seen that gif before but you're right that there's a one way poly there. Easy enough to fix.
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Pyro,
I was more into supporting the use of such approach for other planes as well. IMHO, it would compensate the lack of stereo vision in thick framed cockpits, like 109s and 190s.
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what guy? what point? saying nothing might have been enough.
Whats the point again :lol
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The guy has a point. enough said.
Sorry to quote myself.
"The guy", the one o started the thread. "has a point" food for thought.
There seems that when anyone says anything around here all he gets is a No, NO, NO. It might be difficult to implement, but what he said is correct.
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Sorry to quote myself.
"The guy", the one o started the thread. "has a point" food for thought.
There seems that when anyone says anything around here all he gets is a No, NO, NO. It might be difficult to implement, but what he said is correct.
What he "discovered" has been known for years!
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Whats the point again :lol
that 109s and 190s are purposefully being discriminated against I think........
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Sorry to quote myself.
"The guy", the one o started the thread. "has a point" food for thought.
There seems that when anyone says anything around here all he gets is a No, NO, NO. It might be difficult to implement, but what he said is correct.
Actually, the OP is technically correct only regarding the ability to see something with one eye; however, this does not take into account how binocular vision really works and is wrong from an implementation stand point.
If you take a test subject and ask him to read something on the wall that is partially obscured he will not just read with one eye. He will move his head. This is a reflexive action based on the fact that using both eyes is superior to using one. Same thing happens in a cockpit. If you're in a fight you do not just keep your head in a single spot and use just one eye when there's something in the way, you move your head. Cockpit obstructions to visibility is a very real issue with many fighters in spite of the fact pilots (typically) have two eyes.
The real limitation is that, while AH seems to have one of the best view systems, it has limited ability to move your "head" around in a natural fashion. A better solution for the OP, if this bothers him that much, would be to use Track IR (or Freetrack) so he can move his '"in-game" head to look around the canopy bows.
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that 109s and 190s are purposefully being discriminated against I think........
:O ... I'd like to see the reasoning behind that conclusion.
IMO, it affects all planes, the symtoms are just more apparent in thick framed cockpits. You can count in Corsairs as well.
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Howabout using stereo view? :cool:
Who all can see a very crude 3D cockpit with a gun sight in this pic?
(hint: focus to distance)
(http://koti.welho.com/skukkone/kuvia/itcanbedone.jpg)
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Aaarrrrrrrgghhhhh! Can you imagine a few hours playing AH with your eyes focused like that??? You'd end up like this>>>> :rolleyes:
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Howabout using stereo view? :cool:
Who all can see a very crude 3D cockpit with a gun sight in this pic?
(hint: focus to distance)
Are my posts invisible?? :O
On the second page, I have screenshots with actual stereo cockpits from Il2 and MS Flight Sim! Just cross your eyes so that the two images in each screenshot line up (it helps to lean away from the monitor), and you get 3d cockpits with crossbars that you can partially see through. They aren't just the same image duplicated!
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They are just too large/wide for my eyes to adjust to :(
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They are just too large/wide for my eyes to adjust to :(
Yeah, it can be pretty hard... Hold a finger up in front of your face and focus on it with the screenshot behind it. Then, move your finger closer to and away from your eyes while still focusing on it. Somewhere in that range, you'll be focusing on your finger at the exact distance where you would be focusing on the screenshot so that the two images cross exactly.
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Aha. Followed your instructions and wuh_lah! 3D
That's cool. Would love to try those glasses.
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I use Track IR 4 while air racing and I have 6 degrees of movement inside the cockpit. If I need to see around the nose I just move my head up and to the side. I am leaning forward and looking around the crossbars all the time.
Hope to see some of you at the con.
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So, is a stereogram patch coming down the pipe, or...
Why? AH works in stereo with the nvidia drivers just fine. Has done for a long time.
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Well, I mean the cross-your-eyes kind of stereogram... :D
Well, uh, like I answered you before, I meant the cross-your-eyes kind of stereogram... :D ...like my screenshots on page 2.
Once day, when the 3d capable monitors and/or the 3d glasses come down in price, I'm gonna get a set. 3d's definitely the next big thing in gaming, and I can't wait.
Till then, I really need to get myself a pair of red/blue glasses (or whatever the colors are) since I've got an nVidia card.