Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Jayhawk on September 29, 2009, 01:23:29 AM
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I'm looking to buy my second gun. I'm fairly certain I'll be getting a Glock but I only have one concern. I want to to have the option to conceal carry the gun, that means sticking a gun close to my body with one in the chamber. Anyone have any concerns about sticking the Glock down their pants or would you just recommend a good CC holster and practice on withdraw?
Thanks
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Good IWB holster. And don't sell yourself on a Glock without looking into the Springfield Armory XD line :)
Shameless plug, I love my XD .45 5".
Torture Test...20,000 rounds + ice/mud/sand/truck parking on it...: http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php
PM me if any other questions that the torture test doesn't answer.
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If you like shooting yourself, sure Blocks are great.
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I'm looking to buy my second gun. I'm fairly certain I'll be getting a Glock but I only have one concern. I want to to have the option to conceal carry the gun, that means sticking a gun close to my body with one in the chamber. Anyone have any concerns about sticking the Glock down their pants or would you just recommend a good CC holster and practice on withdraw?
Thanks
Write Plaxico Burress and ask him.
If you're concealing, you had better practice.
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I bought a glock 27 to conceal carry. After a couple times carrying I felt that even as a subcompact model it is still too big and bulky to carry daily. I love my glock but my new carry weapon is my s&w 360pd. It's a nice 5 round .357 revolver that only weighs 12oz. empty. She does have one hell of a kick though especially with the super short barrel.
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I've done a bit of pistol range shooting and cant hit squat with any glock, like bad spread, inconsistant. 0.45 in my opinion is the way to go with a hand gun. I have no concrete evidence other than my target sheets. then again my best results are when I go dirty harry with the Magnum 44 revolver, just cant miss with it but its hardly concealable.
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Both Glock and XDs are fine. I'd suggest handling both before purchasing. Point both and see how they feel. The grip is at different angles on Glock and XD. I did and decided on the XD.
The XDm now has the added manual safety along with the trigger and grip safeties.
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I have the 17 and the 23 and would carry niether in my pants........have shoulder holster for these........carry a Ruger SP101 .357 with 1 1/2 inch barrel....if I plan to carry "below the belt"........Good Luck!!!!
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Stuffing a gun down your waistband is no way to propery carry a gun. Get a holster and with a 27 (compact .40) you have a lot of options whether its on your ankle, waist or shoulder.
You'll never shoot yourself with any pistol if you train properly and train regularly. Trigger discipline and consistancy with regular practice drawing out of your holster will keep you and anyone you don't want to shoot safe.
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I bought a glock 27 to conceal carry. After a couple times carrying I felt that even as a subcompact model it is still too big and bulky to carry daily. I love my glock but my new carry weapon is my s&w 360pd. It's a nice 5 round .357 revolver that only weighs 12oz. empty. She does have one hell of a kick though especially with the super short barrel.
Try that CCI snake shot Pewter its pretty sweet.......use that as my first shot......the other 4 are Talans.......... :devil
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If you like shooting yourself, sure Blocks are great.
Bull....
I have fired well over 10,000 rounds in a Glock 24C and the gun never went off unless I intended it to. Show me where a Glock had an accidental discharge and I will show you someone not executing proper gun safety.
For a small concealed carry gun I think the .40 S&W is ideal, even in a light gun (like small Glock) they have manageable recoil yet still have descent stopping power.
Strip
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Good IWB holster. And don't sell yourself on a Glock without looking into the Springfield Armory XD line :)
Shameless plug, I love my XD .45 5".
Torture Test...20,000 rounds + ice/mud/sand/truck parking on it...: http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.php
PM me if any other questions that the torture test doesn't answer.
XD is a safer CC weapon, as it has a twin-safety system, unlike the Glock which only has the trigger safety. I've fired both (9mm), and prefer the XD with the ported barrel to the Glock. It was a Glock that that pro-jock shot himself in the leg with earlier this year. Of course, he stuck it into his wasteband...and was wearing sweatpant of all things. He went into a bar (big No-No, even with a CCW permit), it naturally began to slide down inside his pants, and went off when he grabbed it through his pants. That could not have happened with the XD's twin-safety feature, which requires the operator to hold the gun correctly to disengage the safeties.
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I carry a Glock 19 (mid-size 9mm) for my daily CCW weapon. I use a Galco OWB holster, and am able to conceal it very easily under just an untucked shirt.
I'd be very careful about just sticking a pistol in my pants w/o a holster - you might go off half-cocked . . . :D
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Just to add two more to consider, in addition to the Springfield (XD and XDm) since you're looking at polymer pisols: The S&W M&MP line and the FNH FNP line.
I think it comes down to what you feel comfortable holding, as well as if the safety features are needed for your experience level.
Personally, I don't like Glocks -- I never enjoyed shooting them, and don't like the trigger safety.
For carrying, I went with a nice IWB (I have a Crossbreed Supertuck) than an OWB holster, (and never go with it just in your waistband!), and I've been happy and comfortable when carrying my 5906, which is quite heavy compared to the pistols you're looking at.
mir
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Glocks are nice and all but...I must not have the right hands for the things...grips always feel "off".
S&W, Springfield, Ruger and several others make really nice conceal weapons that are much safer and as good as a Glock...don't stick the things in your pants...even a revolver is dangerous when you do that...get yourself either a belt clip breakaway (clamshell or snap) or a shoulder rig with a breakaway. I used to carry a big .45 cal Taurus 1911 in a breakaway belt clip holster and even in a sprint through the woods never had a problem with the pistol coming out.
Speaking of Taurus...they do have some new weapons out...titanium slides...polymer frames...concealed carry models...if you don't mind doing some minor tweaking out of the box, they're pretty good weapons...nothing like a Springfield, S&W or Glock but...definitely workable. I've never had an issue with one after doing some minor tweaking.
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1911.
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I carry a Glock eveyday rather on-duty or off. I got a baby glock to carry off-duty though. I would say you could find a good CC holster anywheres, but would suggest you check around and see what is best for you. Also I would have to agree with you Strip about proper gun safety.
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I do not keep a round chambered in my Glock unless I am in a known zone of danger, or feel myself at an elevated risk. Rarely does either happen.
In any event I have a shoulder holster, so ramming the loaded pistol into my waistband is not a concern. I am always very careful when holstering the Glock with a loaded round in the chamber. One has to be ABOSLUTELY CERTAIN that nothing can get into the trigger guard and depress the safety trigger and then further depress the main trigger back past the pressure point release discharging the weapon.
Glocks are great weapons, both physically and psychologically, but they do not suffer drunks or ignorant retards worth a damn.
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1911.
Is there anything else? :aok
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I own an HK USP 45 and if I ever purchased a Conceal carry pistol, the ONLY choice would be a Glock 23.
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XD is a safer CC weapon, as it has a twin-safety system, unlike the Glock which only has the trigger safety. I've fired both (9mm), and prefer the XD with the ported barrel to the Glock. It was a Glock that that pro-jock shot himself in the leg with earlier this year. Of course, he stuck it into his wasteband...and was wearing sweatpant of all things. He went into a bar (big No-No, even with a CCW permit), it naturally began to slide down inside his pants, and went off when he grabbed it through his pants. That could not have happened with the XD's twin-safety feature, which requires the operator to hold the gun correctly to disengage the safeties.
I do understand what you're saying and the following message is not an attempt to discredit your statement. Just remember, a safety is a mechanical device that can and will fail! Never rely on it to pull you through any scenario.
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That is why XDMs have three safeties
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*Facepalms*
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I do not keep a round chambered in my Glock unless I am in a known zone of danger, or feel myself at an elevated risk. Rarely does either happen.
Out of curiosity, what determines these factors for you?
For me, I always have a round chambered, as I feel any 'safe' situation could be 'unsafe' in the blink of an eye.
I'm not talking about being at a family member's house, or someplace where carrying isn't needed, but when I'm carrying, I always have it loaded.
The only thing I might change is if I have the manual safety/decocker engaged, or if it's ready to fire, since my 5906 is a DA/SA pistol.
I don't walk around paranoid, thinking the worst is going to happen, but I feel if it does happen, even in a safe place like a grocery store, I don't want to think about racking the slide to load a round.
mir
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I am a retired Police Lieutenant, I love the Glock, great handgun. I carry full size sidearms. Remember if you ever have to use your gun to defend yourself you have to be sure you are going hit what your shooting at and that it will be a caliber that will do the job.You need to have confidence in what you carry. I carry a model 22 (40cal) and at times I will carry my Springfield XD (45cal), however, I will never carry in the pants, even with a INP holster. If your going to carry a sidearm you need to be capable of drawing the weapon quickly and re-holstering just a fast. Buy a good holster that fits the gun properly and sits close to the body. Just my thought..
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I carry the Glock 26 (baby Glock) and use the "SmartCarry holster (http://www.smartcarry.com/)". The holster is a bit more "deep carry" than most other holsters, but after practicing I have become proficient at drawing from it.
I would definitely recommend any Glock as a carry gun. If you use a proper holster there should be no fear of carrying with a round in the chamber.
Terror
PS. The 1911 and the XD are both fine firearms and work perfectly for carry. Try them out and then choose the Glock.. ;)
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I love my XD-40.
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I have a Glock 23C .40 cal and I love that weapon. The holster I usually carry mine in is a BlackHawk CQC, the only problem is it doesnt "conceal" very well if I have my shirt tucked in. I mounted the left hand version in my truck about knee level on the drivers side console.
Personally, I don't carry it around that often anymore but I do trust that gun over anthing else I own.
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1911.
I was wonder how long before someone would bring that gun up. :lol
That is why XDMs have three safeties
Glocks also have three safeties.
I appreciate the input. I'm going to Cabelas tomorrow to take a look at some pistols. Front runner right now is the Glock 19 but I'm open to other ideas. I wanted a gun I could conceal carry if I choose but chances are I rarely will. I live in Kansas and would need to go through the process to get a permit then still be severely limited on where I can legally carry it. More than likely it'll just be a fun gun to shoot but also serve as a home defense and open carry gun. (I've heard all the arguments about a 9mm vs .45 or .357, still choosing the 9mm, no need to lecture on stopping power and all that jazz, but I know you still will :rolleyes:)
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(I've heard all the arguments about a 9mm vs .45 or .357, still choosing the 9mm, no need to lecture on stopping power and all that jazz, but I know you still will )
9mm is a just fine. I use the Winchester Ranger +P+ 127gr JHP. I get ~1400fps out of my Glock26. More than enough for carry purposes. I use the +2 extension on the G26 mags for a carry capacity of 12 rounds per mag. I carry one extra mag.
Terror
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I carry a gold plated Desert Eagle .50 AE with a 14 inch barrel in a tactical thigh holster at all times. Even in the shower. You just never know. :noid
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Out of curiosity, what determines these factors for you?
mir
Traveling through a lower income part of any city.
Traveling through any part of a larger city.
Traveling long distances late at night over lightly traveled routes
Going into the wilderness, or a close approximation thereof.
Going to the local safeway, going to the local park, out to dinner.....these are the average daily pursuits when I tend to carry are when I tend to keep the breech clear.
To be fully honest, I should have a round in the chamber any time I carry the pistol.
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If you are going to carry a plastic gun, be sure it has the required orange nose cap :)
My 1911A and I are good friends, it's never let me down.
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I'm looking to buy my second gun. I'm fairly certain I'll be getting a Glock but I only have one concern. I want to to have the option to conceal carry the gun, that means sticking a gun close to my body with one in the chamber. Anyone have any concerns about sticking the Glock down their pants or would you just recommend a good CC holster and practice on withdraw?
Thanks
You really want to always carry any handgun secured in a good holster. It is safer for you, and everyone else around you.
If you want to be sneaky, carry your gun in your crotch. It will be harder to spot there, as folks tend to not stare at a man's privates. Good brands to consider are Thunderwear:
http://www.thunderwear.com/holsters.asp
and SmartCarry:
http://www.smartcarry.com/
Women especially prefer to have their gun secured inside their crotch with one of these types of holsters:
(http://www.thunderwear.com/images/belly.jpg)
Just make sure that you handle your gun safely, as an accidental discharge with a gun carried in this position can be bad news, especially for a man.
If you rreally are dead set on getting a Glock, then by all means save up your money now, and buy one of the new generation Glocks next year, after they are announced at the 2010 Shot Show next January. This is going to be the first major overhaul of the Glock design, and it will include different size grip inserts, so you can adjust the size of the gun's grip, as a number of other brands of handguns currently allow.
Glock has lost a lot of police sales to Smith & Wesson's new M&P pistol in recent years, because it already has this new feature.
See this link for info:
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2009/06/09/glock-adjustable-grip-models-announced/
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This is all I ever carry, but man is it hard to pull out in a hurry. Chafes mah crotch area too.
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7910/m4m203.jpg) (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/m4m203.jpg/)
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my old Glock19 is the absolute most perfect fit for me of any pistol I have ever handled. The only accoutrement I have added is a rubber grip sleeve.
The accuracy of the thing is remarkable. The trigger pull is near perfect. 9mm round is a splendid blend of high energy/low recoil/lethal stopping power with high capacity availability. It has never jammed (I would guess 5000+ fact loads), never needed a repair and the maintenance on the thing is near zero.
I have yet to meet a pistol I did not love and admire on some level, but the Glock19 is as near perfect for me as any pistol I have yet to experience.
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You definitely dont want a Negligent Discharge with the 309 on there Ranger, that could seriously make your eyes water lol....
Wurzel
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you Americans are all completely crazy :D
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WHO you calling American Mr??? ;)
:D
(Sorry, Just had to, you know how it is :lol)
Wurzel
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well, mostly the Americans... but i think youre mental too wurzle :D :salute
who isnt?
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you Americans are all completely crazy :D
In complete honestly, the gun culture in this country is near totally the result of how the landmass was settled and the state was founded. A good firearm was an essential tool in just about every situation. You never knew when a bear, an indian or a Redcoat would show up. :D
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I fully understand, I even envy your freedom. However the amount some of you love your guns is almost like one of those early ninties heroine addiction adverts, I'm sort of glad i don't have the freedom to get another expensive addic....er...hobby
not really, i would love to own a couple of guns stronger than a .177 airgun.
You're all still stark raving madmen. :rock
"to testicle holster or not to testicle holster, that is the question. weather tis nobler to suffer the pains of self inflicted slings and arrows etc."
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Traveling through a lower income part of any city.
Traveling through any part of a larger city.
Traveling long distances late at night over lightly traveled routes
Going into the wilderness, or a close approximation thereof.
Going to the local safeway, going to the local park, out to dinner.....these are the average daily pursuits when I tend to carry are when I tend to keep the breech clear.
To be fully honest, I should have a round in the chamber any time I carry the pistol.
I follow your logic, and at one point, I didn't always have one in the chamber. What changed my mindset was after a slew of robberies in
local eateries down here in South Florida, armed robberies when people were leaving Wal-Mart, and practicing the draw from the holster.
I'm getting married in January -- I won't be carrying there. But it will be in my car, should the zombies come. hehe
But in all seriousness, the only thing that ever worries me about having one in the chamber is if a child could get to it, and that would be my fault for leaving it accessible to curious hands.
mir
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This is all I ever carry, but man is it hard to pull out in a hurry. Chafes mah crotch area too.
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7910/m4m203.jpg) (http://img16.imageshack.us/i/m4m203.jpg/)
lol I doubt you'll get far with that m4 mounted on there. :D
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I don't carry the gun,this other guy does.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kcDpD-QD6vg/SYvCIcGDapI/AAAAAAAAB4E/S4Ldph_EK0s/s400/big+guns.jpg)
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I fully understand, I even envy your freedom. You're all still stark raving madmen. :rock
There are certain people in this world that need to be shot. Guns allow us to do this.
Its also about slavery. If you have a government telling you that you cannot own a decent gun then you are a slave to that government. Sign, sealed and delivered.
I cannot be a slave, not knowingly.
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But in all seriousness, the only thing that ever worries me about having one in the chamber is if a child could get to it, and that would be my fault for leaving it accessible to curious hands.
mir
it is an immense responsibility that has the power to literally destroy your life.
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I carried a Glock 19 daily for quite a while. It was both duty and off duty for that particular pistol. I had a nice duty holster but the majority of times I carried it in the back waist band under the belt. It never moved nor shifted position in the several years I carried it that way. I tried several holsters for off duty but they all caused the gun to "print" and be far more obvious than the inside the waist band. That is important in a warm weather area like the SW. If you are in Michigan wearing a coat a good part of the year it's no big deal. My Glock was far far more comfortable than the Officers model (.45) it replaced as it was the same size but lighter loaded than the Colt was empty. The 19 is a good compromise in size with a decent number of rounds, good sight radius and easy to shoot well.
Like several other things, a handgun is a personal choice. What works for one person may not fit the next so well. Find a local range that rents guns. That gives you the chance to shoot several without having to buy them. Then get the one you liked the most. It's not the size, color or features that are important. It's hitting the target that is the most critical. In a time of stress your accuracy WILL degrade. If it's hard to hit when you are relaxed it may be impossible when in fear of your life. Use a gun that you shoot well and easily hit with. A hit with a smaller gun is better than a miss with a 44 mag.
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it is an immense responsibility that has the power to literally destroy your life.
And a lot of people don't realize that fact.
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I better go get that gun before this thread gets hijacked into a political discussion!!
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I better go get that gun before this thread gets hijacked into a political discussion!!
:rofl
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I'm looking to buy my second gun. I'm fairly certain I'll be getting a Glock but I only have one concern. I want to to have the option to conceal carry the gun, that means sticking a gun close to my body with one in the chamber. Anyone have any concerns about sticking the Glock down their pants or would you just recommend a good CC holster and practice on withdraw?
Thanks
I have a Glock Model 23 and a CCW. I don't carry my Glock. Get something you can externally safety, perhaps a nice Sig P229 or something. Or, if you're like me, you'll sit on your porch at night with your AR or FN FAL on your lap, just to remind the communists of Ann Arbor about the cold dead hands thing ( I actually did this in the blackout of '06. I doubt anyone could actually see the rifle from the road but the thought was there).
I'd recommend a 40 cal or a 45 cal, either way. The 9 is too wimpy. I don't shoot people often but I think the 40 cal will cut through a couple of layers of automotive steel and still have enough KE to leave a nice wound channel, if you're using the right bullets. Speaking of which, even a 9 in fmj will overpenetrate - and that includes auto steel. Get some nice Starfires or Bon-Bons in +P or so - good expansion with plenty of energy means big wounds without overpenetration.
Either way, enjoy your pistol and your CCW. Remember, if Big MamaJama's "babies" are all dead, they ain't gone t'testifah t' sheeeeee.
Okay, maybe that last part's over the top...
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I have a Glock Model 23 and a CCW. I don't carry my Glock. Get something you can externally safety, perhaps a nice Sig P229 or something. Or, if you're like me, you'll sit on your porch at night with your AR or FN FAL on your lap, just to remind the communists of Ann Arbor about the cold dead hands thing ( I actually did this in the blackout of '06. I doubt anyone could actually see the rifle from the road but the thought was there).
I'd recommend a 40 cal or a 45 cal, either way. The 9 is too wimpy. I don't shoot people often but I think the 40 cal will cut through a couple of layers of automotive steel and still have enough KE to leave a nice wound channel, if you're using the right bullets. Speaking of which, even a 9 in fmj will overpenetrate - and that includes auto steel. Get some nice Starfires or Bon-Bons in +P or so - good expansion with plenty of energy means big wounds without overpenetration.
Either way, enjoy your pistol and your CCW. Remember, if Big MamaJama's "babies" are all dead, they ain't gone t'testifah t' sheeeeee. Okay, maybe that last part's over the top...
The blackout was in 2003, not 2006. But brandishing is showing irresponsibility on your part as a CCW holder. Playing billy-bad-ass is not the image most of us law abiding citizens take part in, that goes for stereotypes as well. I had my USP 45, but it was never brought out at all, because there was no need.
Funniest of all, you sound like you're from Ypsilanti, not Ann Arbor. I'm a mile from Detroit, you do the math.
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The blackout was in 2003, not 2006. But brandishing is showing irresponsibility on your part as a CCW holder. Playing billy-bad-ass is not the image most of us law abiding citizens take part in, that goes for stereotypes as well. I had my USP 45, but it was never brought out at all, because there was no need.
Funniest of all, you sound like you're from Ypsilanti, not Ann Arbor. I'm a mile from Detroit, you do the math.
Masher, there's this thing called humor. Perhaps you didn't appreciate it. You're right about the blackout. Tempus fugit. Time runs away from me.
As for the brandishing charge, however, sitting on my porch with a semiauto rifle discretely tucked behind a rail fails to qualify. Indeed, carrying a rifle openly wouldn't constitute a brandish unless you aimed it threateningly or verbalized/otherwise signalled some threat. While I wasn't especially concerned about looting, one of my friends in FL said they would take similar precautions after hurricanes and actually had an armed neighborhood watch. Further, it made sense to sit out there and have dinner and keep watch. After all, I had no power.
As for playing Billy Badass, only as a joke on the bbs - where, apparently, I'm among other gunowners.
I take the whole thing very seriously - ever since the day, long ago, when I bought my first gun (a milled receiver SKS) and a huge tin of chinese ammo. I realized, on my way home that it's a genuinely awesome responsibility. Fail to recognize that and you're likely to hurt someone or end up in jail or the wrong side of the turf.
So, with that paean to seriousness, I'll close. The rest was bluster - though I DO NOT think the Glock a good choice for carry unless your safe handling habits are very good. That part was serious. As was, come to think, my choice of handgun ammo.
A mile from Detroit? You've got real security needs there, probably. I, however, really do not. Sorry if my attempt to make light was unfunny. My condolences if you're in the City income tax band... people really should abandon that corrupt and decaying blighted metropolis. The leadership is rotten to the core and the business climate is punitive.
BTW, someone from Ypsi wouldn't have an FAL - probably never would've heard of it - and would instead be starting a topic about sex with relatives.
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though I DO NOT think the Glock a good choice for carry unless your safe handling habits are very good. That part was serious. As was, come to think, my choice of handgun ammo.
This statement is just "anti-glock" .... No matter what firearm you are carrying you *MUST* have very safe handling habits. Otherwise you are a danger to yourself and anyone around you. Glock firearms are as safe as any other gun on the market. Negligent Discharges are cause by poor handling, poor decisions, and a string of mistakes. An external safety is no guarantee against a negligent discharge. A proper holster with the proper trigger protection should be used for all carry situations.
Terror
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lol I doubt you'll get far with that m4 mounted on there. :D
But think how very pleased women will be when they see him approach??? :x
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Remember, if you're going to buy a gun, make sure you've got your new address on your driver's license.
(http://raoworld.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/facepalm6.jpg)
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it is an immense responsibility that has the power to literally destroy your life.
I think that poor Plaxico failed to ponder that point:
(http://media.hamiltonspectator.topscms.com/images/d5/b3/c699f4b44fb79a2fd100070cf41f.jpeg)
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Bull....
I have fired well over 10,000 rounds in a Glock 24C and the gun never went off unless I intended it to. Show me where a Glock had an accidental discharge and I will show you someone not executing proper gun safety.
For a small concealed carry gun I think the .40 S&W is ideal, even in a light gun (like small Glock) they have manageable recoil yet still have descent stopping power.
Strip
I've lost count of how many rounds I've put through my Sig P226 in the 10 years I've had it, but I know it has NEVER jammed, discharged or broke on duty or on the range.
The only thing I've changed on it was a Hogue wraparound grip.
I've seen so many Glocks, especially new ones that have jammed or broke at the range or on duty.
They're decent handguns, don't get me wrong, but I will never carry one. They are almost similar to the little AR-15s with all the tinker-toys you can put on'em...
Google 'glock accidental discharge' and enjoy...
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do you imply that the sig is immune to negligent/accidental discharge?
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do you imply that the sig is immune to negligent/accidental discharge?
I doubt he implies that.
But it does have a longer and heavier trigger pull on the first shot. So it would be more difficult than a Glock to accidentally discharge.
At least I don't know of any video of an officer accidentally shooting his SIG, like that DEA agent did with his Glock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj4yUpR1PB0
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This statement is just "anti-glock" .... No matter what firearm you are carrying you *MUST* have very safe handling habits. Otherwise you are a danger to yourself and anyone around you. Glock firearms are as safe as any other gun on the market. Negligent Discharges are cause by poor handling, poor decisions, and a string of mistakes. An external safety is no guarantee against a negligent discharge. A proper holster with the proper trigger protection should be used for all carry situations.
Terror
You know, Terror, I basically agree with everything you say here. I also will honestly tell you that I've never had an accidental discharge of my Glock.
I holster and carry the Glock when I go out on my annual hunting trips. We've got some family property well west of Ann Arbor in Calhoun county. I feel totally comfortable having the thing under my arm when I'm out in the woods. Before I go on, let me answer the inevitable question: poachers and reports of big cats - http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-30-mountain-lions_x.htm (the farm next door actually had some prints).
Yet I would never feel comfortable with that thing under my arm in, for example, Dearborn. It's me. It's not the gun. I know that that thing will go off if I pull the trigger or if something the size of a finger gets in the guard and exerts sufficient force on the trigger itself. I just don't trust myself to not somehow accidentally get something in there when I'm in a hurry and distracted. As a rule, I don't carry in urban settings anyway. OTOH, if I were expecting a problem, it'd be the gun to have. It's dead simple. But, if that were the case, I wouldn't be running to meetings juggling a bunch of paper and electronics .
If that sounds confused, I'd just put it down to the personal pref. The Glock is the handgun to have if you expect trouble. I prefer something else most of the time - because I'm generally not expecting trouble.
It's kind of like the difference between a primary and a support... Or maybe irrational and rational fears. I mean, I know, in my head, that the trigger is completely protected by my underarm holster yet I still don't feel comfortable. I'm conditioned, is what I think it means - and 15 years of Glock ownership has not un-conditioned me.
Otherwise, I love it - especially the absence of the external hammer and the consistent trigger (no single/double bs - I hate that crap) and don't want to be seen as dissing what I think to be an otherwise fine product.
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There's a lot of info on the 9mm vs .45 vs .40 debate.
I use +P loads in my 5906. 124gr +P. And that's my carry weapon -- 15+1 in the chamber.
I absolutely prefer the stopping power of my 10mm (1006), but it's just too big and heavy to carry comfortably.
One gun that I think combines a lot of things is the FNH FNP-45 USG. Large capacity magazine, polymer + stainless, adjustable backstraps, manual safety/decocker, and it's a .45.
I suppose that one post from somebody in the UK had a point -- he's lucky that he doesn't get tempted to buy into another hobby that can turn expensive in a snap! :lol
Also, check out www.ar15.com (http://www.ar15.com) -- there are a lot of very knowledgable people there.
mir
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I doubt he implies that.
But it does have a longer and heavier trigger pull on the first shot. So it would be more difficult than a Glock to accidentally discharge.
At least I don't know of any video of an officer accidentally shooting his SIG, like that DEA agent did with his Glock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj4yUpR1PB0
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I always want to file this hammer cocking double/single thing as "design limitation advertised as safety feature".
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Glocks do not have a hammer.
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Glocks do not have a hammer.
:D
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Glocks do not have a hammer.
Exactly. That's why it's the same pull every time. See my other post. In no way do I intend to denigrate the weapon or design.
This "longer pull on the first shot" advertised as a safety feature is classic marketing. It's an undesirable design limitation, imj, albeit a common one. Glock neatly sidesteps the entire issue with the use of a striker that is internal to the rear of the slide. Whether that's an internal hammer is a matter I leave to others. What is very clear is that it's not an external hammer and, better, it doesn't need to be first cocked back with some stupid-long initial pull.
It's like I told Terror, there is much to recommend the weapon and I am a Model 23 owner. People get all partisan about their guns. I'm NOT ripping the Glock.
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:D
:huh repeating me re: hammerless design - see 6:13p yesterday (lengthy post above, last para). comprehension, por favor.
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The US should take Canadian gun laws as an example ;)
No one here is crying about them, too.
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Re: Original Post
Any mid or compact size Glock will make a good CCW weapon. Glock 19/23 in a Bladetech IWB at 4 o'clock would be my recommendation and preference. As far as concerns regarding carrying a chambered round down your pants, it's a matter of training, as 99% of negligent discharges in this region are a result of the ol' finger on the trigger while reholstering. The reason Glocks get a bad rap is that a lot of people will put the 3.5 lb trigger (the stock 5.5 is reasonably light too) into the pistol, and back to the finger on the trigger while trying to stuff the pistol into a holster, kaboom is the result...followed by the ow dance and some screaming usually. DA/SA guns have a much higher lb pull DA trigger and sometimes this is enough to be noticed by said finger going into the holster with the result of it being quickly removed and a head scan to see if anyone on the range or the instructor caught said error. Hence, less AD's with non internal striker fired pistols.
I can't stress it enough - training training, and more training. Some of the people on this board who consider themselves shooters are likely not even holding their pistols correctly, which is the building block upon which all other skills are taught, so take less of their advice and more of a good instructors by attending a CCW course from any number of good schools (yes I'm partial to mine). In 2 days you'll be amazed by what you didn't know when you walked in, and then astonished by what you do when you walk out.
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dbl post
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You mean I am not supposed to hold it sideways with one hand?
:uhoh
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Yeeeeaah.... what's your name again? :D
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You mean I am not supposed to hold it sideways with one hand?
:uhoh
I like to shoot like Shaggy 2 Dope in the movie "Big Money Hustlas" - 2 sideways, 1 in each hand, with a throwaway in my belt above my buttcrack. I like to spray bullets around the hood, just for laughs. :rolleyes:
Just don't put your finger down the side of that .357 revolver... That's a mistake I made ONCE. I was warned and forgot.
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:huh repeating me re: hammerless design - see 6:13p yesterday (lengthy post above, last para). comprehension, por favor.
I quoted Maverick.
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I just thought about this from Chris Rock:
"Everybody is talking about gun control. Got to control the guns. F%&, that, I like guns. If you've got a gun, you don't need to work out! Cause, I ain't working out. I ain't jogging. No, I think we need some bullet control. I think every bullet should cost five thousand dollars. Five thousand dollars for a bullet. Know why? Cos if a bullet cost five thousand dollars, there'd be no more innocent by-standers. That'd be it. Some guy'd be shot you'd be all 'Damn, he must've done something, he's got fifty thousand dollars worth of bullets in his ass!' And people'd think before they shot someone 'Man I will blow your f#&^ing head off, if I could afford it. I'm gonna get me a second job, start saving up, and you a dead man. You'd better hope I don't get no bullets on lay-away!' And even if you get shot you wouldn't need to go to the emergency room. Whoever shot you'd take their bullet back. 'I believe you got my property?"
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Classic skit and I long thought of it. It still makes me laugh.
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Bought it, here's a quick video if you guys are interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZRkmyID1BU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZRkmyID1BU)
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Bought it, here's a quick video if you guys are interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZRkmyID1BU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZRkmyID1BU)
Nice job clearing the gun when you pull it out of the box.... (alot of people would have skipped that step in making a video) Just remember to remove the mag *before* clearing. Just in case...
T
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Glad to see you went with a Glock....
:aok
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Sweet! and remember, treat every gun as if it were loaded and never point your gun at anything that you do not intend to shoot :)
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I'm looking to buy my second gun. I'm fairly certain I'll be getting a Glock but I only have one concern. I want to to have the option to conceal carry the gun, that means sticking a gun close to my body with one in the chamber. Anyone have any concerns about sticking the Glock down their pants or would you just recommend a good CC holster and practice on withdraw?
Thanks
Why Glock?
These are some of the worst to conceal, bulky design is not easy to conceal. Not knocking Glock, but have you looked into others?
I own and easily conceal my SIG P226, thinner in design and most of all comfortable and easy to conceal, take a look around, there are many that may fit your needs.
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Why Glock?
These are some of the worst to conceal, bulky design is not easy to conceal. Not knocking Glock, but have you looked into others?
I own and easily conceal my SIG P226, thinner in design and most of all comfortable and easy to conceal, take a look around, there are many that may fit your needs.
Glock 23 is EASILY concealed.
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Why Glock?
These are some of the worst to conceal, bulky design is not easy to conceal. Not knocking Glock, but have you looked into others?
I own and easily conceal my SIG P226, thinner in design and most of all comfortable and easy to conceal, take a look around, there are many that may fit your needs.
Okay, I haven't really made myself real clear here. I didn't buy a gun specifically for conceal carry, it'll be a fun gun to shoot, a home defense gun, and an open carry PRIMARILY.
IF I decide to get the conceal carry permit [In Kansas you have to apply, pay something like 150 to state and local gov, and take a training course that is a minimum $100. So I'd be looking at something like $250 to get a concealed carry permit. Now that restricts all the normal places, schools, government buildings, churches. However, anyone can put up a no gun sign, I'll put a picture at the bottom of the post, and that restricts you from legally carrying a gun into that business, or residence I believe.] then I would be very limited to where I could even carry it. I didn't get a full size pistol so if I ever did decide to carry concealed I would have the option. So the concealed is just an option for the future, overall the quality of the Glock sold me.
(http://www.kancorind.org/images/graphics/No_Gun.jpg)
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Okay, I haven't really made myself real clear here. I didn't buy a gun specifically for conceal carry, it'll be a fun gun to shoot, a home defense gun, and an open carry PRIMARILY.
IF I decide to get the conceal carry permit [In Kansas you have to apply, pay something like 150 to state and local gov, and take a training course that is a minimum $100. So I'd be looking at something like $250 to get a concealed carry permit. Now that restricts all the normal places, schools, government buildings, churches. However, anyone can put up a no gun sign, I'll put a picture at the bottom of the post, and that restricts you from legally carrying a gun into that business, or residence I believe.] then I would be very limited to where I could even carry it.
You can't carry in Churches? Are you sure?
As for the signs, they can post them, but check the laws -- they may only be able to ask you to leave if you're carrying concealed. But if you're not printing, nobody would know, and you wouldn't be asked to leave.
We don't have open carry in Florida, but we can carry concealed in nearly any place aside from Government Buildings, schools, airports, and bars/clubs that primarily serve alchohol. There's more places, of course, but I don't feel it's so restrictive that I wouldn't spend $250 on it, if it cost that. (Which sucks, btw.)
mir
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Alright, you made me break out the legislature.
This is all under the 'Kansas Personal and Family Protection Act' [K.S.A. 75-c01 et. seq]
Here's a couple interesting places you cannot carry concealed into: [75-7c10]
(1) Any place where an activity declared a common nuisance by K.S.A. 22-3901, and amendments thereto, is maintained;
(6) any polling place on the day an election is held;
(8 ) on the state fairground;
(10) any athletic event not related to or involving firearms which is sponsored by a private or public
elementary or secondary school or any private or public institution of postsecondary education;
(11) any professional athletic event not related to or involving firearms;
(21) any church or temple;
As for the signs, it is technically illegal for you to carry conceal if they have the sign up. But you are right that if you are actually carrying concealed, it shouldn't be a problem. I don't like that risk if something does go wrong. Of course most of these places I could still legally open carry into but chances are they don't know that law and would still ask me to leave.
I did double check the price and it is $150 in fees, plus training at an approved facility. The lowest price I found is $100 and usually don't go above $150.
Here are the links to the Attorney General's website on concealed carry and a direct link to the legislation. It includes other places you can't carry like bars/clubs, schools and all that stuff.
http://www.ksag.org/page/concealed-carry (http://www.ksag.org/page/concealed-carry)
http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/KPFPA%20Statutes%20%20(75-7c01%20et%20seq.)%202009%20Update.PDF (http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/KPFPA%20Statutes%20%20(75-7c01%20et%20seq.)%202009%20Update.PDF)
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Okay, I haven't really made myself real clear here. I didn't buy a gun specifically for conceal carry, it'll be a fun gun to shoot, a home defense gun, and an open carry PRIMARILY.
Dude:
Open carry in most states is a real stupid thing to do. It will do nothing but cause alarm and concern among others, and give you grief. I would advise that you to get a CCW permit, if you want to have your gun loaded with you anywhere outside of your home.
A guy I've met who is really into open carry got into an incident with the police here recently, when he stopped to buy gas at a local gas station, openly carrying his handgun. The owner had been robbed at gunpoint recently, and was thus terrified when he saw that the man was armed. He called the police immediately, who rushed to the scene.
Now the police could not arrest the man, since he had done nothing to violate the law. But while he was detained by the officers while they did a warrant check on him, the owner gave him a trespass warning. And the officers then explained to him that if the owner ever spotted him at his gas station again, they would come and arrest him for criminal trespass.
IF I decide to get the conceal carry permit [In Kansas you have to apply, pay something like 150 to state and local gov, and take a training course that is a minimum $100. So I'd be looking at something like $250 to get a concealed carry permit.
So what? Are you saying that you cannot afford $250? I just checked, and there are courses starting at $75 So $150 + $75 = $225 for a permit that is good for 4 years. That works out to $56.25 a year
Your fees are much higher than what we have to pay in my state, I do admit. And we only have to take a class once. We don't have to take it again when we renew. That really sucks that they do that to you. But that is something that you can take up with your representatives in your state legislature.
However, anyone can put up a no gun sign, I'll put a picture at the bottom of the post, and that restricts you from legally carrying a gun into that business, or residence I believe.] then I would be very limited to where I could even carry it. I didn't get a full size pistol so if I ever did decide to carry concealed I would have the option. So the concealed is just an option for the future, overall the quality of the Glock sold me.
Man, you sure don't understand the law at all. No one, in any state, has the right to take firearms onto the private property of another person without that person's permission. Do you actually think that you have a right to come into my home with a gun, if I don't want you to? Get real! Likewise, any business operator can set rules for the private property that he owns. Their rights easily trump any rights that you have, when you are on their privately owned property.
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What an angry and aggressive response. You should check out http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/ (http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/). It's the forum to OpenCarry.org. It has a lot of first hand accounts of good and bad open carrying. As I've done the research for my particular area. I've found and met many people who open carry without issue. The LEOs in my area are well informed of the law and understand my rights to open carry. The gas station incident is unfortunate and it will happen, it is a risk open carriers understand and take.
And again, since you don't live here, you don't understand how many places have the signage (like noted in previous post) restricting concealed carry of firearms. I can walk around all I want but the minute I want to enter almost any establishment, I would have to store my gun. Therefore I don't see the tremendous advantage to it.
Finally, there is nothing illegal about me walking into a business open carrying. The second they ask me to leave or remove the firearm, I have to or can be cited for trespassing, I understand that. Now I have to admit my ignorance when it comes to private property. I assume it works the same, I can walk onto the property but if the owner asks me to leave I have to or else can be cited for trespassing.
I don't know everything, but I do feel that I understand these laws pretty good. We can discuss it but please don't treat me like an idiot sir. :salute
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Jayhawk, thanks for the links. Just perusing the first link and links from that page showed that it's restrictive...
What about carrying in your car? Do you need a license to keep it in a glovebox or center console? I know you can open carry in the car, but in Florida, we can keep it in the glove box, center console, snapped holster, gun case, etc.., as long as it requires 1 step to getting the weapon. (That's without a CCW permit).
I just think it's worth having, and not dealing with the hassles of open carry.
Honestly, even if we could open carry in Florida, I wouldn't unless I was out in the Everglades or someplace very rural. It's probably a little nerousness on my part, but I'd be worried that somebody would be able to get it from me if it was in plain sight.
(Going through my teens in Florida, during the early 80's, burned some paranoia about this place into my brain...) :(
mir
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And again, since you don't live here, you don't understand how many places have the signage (like noted in previous post) restricting concealed carry of firearms. I can walk around all I want but the minute I want to enter almost any establishment, I would have to store my gun. Therefore I don't see the tremendous advantage to it.
Finally, there is nothing illegal about me walking into a business open carrying. The second they ask me to leave or remove the firearm, I have to or can be cited for trespassing, I understand that.
I feel for you here, and I experience the same frustration.
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Transporting is a little confusing. Here's some quick info found in the FAQ of the law:
Kansas does not have a general law against carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle.
K.S.A. 2005 Supp 12-16, 124(d) provides that "no person shall be prosecuted under any ordinance, resolution or regulation for transporting a firearm in any air, land or water vehicle if the firearm is unloaded and encased in a container which completely encloses the firearm."
So to be totally safe, you can unload the firearm and store it in an encased container. I would assume the glove compartment would suffice. In the 2007 modifications to the bill, concealed carry permit holders can transport the gun concealed and loaded. I think they added that to protect from any local laws. To be safe with open carry you can put the gun in your passenger seat or preferably on your dash. You have to be careful that you don't keep it holstered while driving because if you do get pulled over that could be considered concealing a firearm unlawfully. Like the beginning said, there is no specific law but it could be risky to transport a loaded firearm without the permit in your glove box or console. Easiest thing to do is either unload it and put it in or just toss it on your dash for the drive.
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Transporting is a little confusing. Here's some quick info found in the FAQ of the law:
In the 2007 modifications to the bill, concealed carry permit holders can transport the gun concealed and loaded. I think they added that to protect from any local laws. To be safe with open carry you can put the gun in your passenger seat or preferably on your dash. You have to be careful that you don't keep it holstered while driving because if you do get pulled over that could be considered concealing a firearm unlawfully. Like the beginning said, there is no specific law but it could be risky to transport a loaded firearm without the permit in your glove box or console. Easiest thing to do is either unload it and put it in or just toss it on your dash for the drive.
Put your gun out on your dash in the open for anyone driving by to see??? OMG, what a wonderful idea.
I guess we just see things from very different perspectives.
Good luck to you in open carrying. You may well need it, in my opinion.
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Good luck to you in open carrying. You may well need it, in my opinion.
I don't need luck, I've got the law on my side. :)
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If a sign says no guns allowed.... that would cover concealed or open carry.
I stear clear of those places as much as possible as they invite the criminal to a safe haven for doing his crimes.
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If a sign says no guns allowed.... that would cover concealed or open carry.
I stear clear of those places as much as possible as they invite the criminal to a safe haven for doing his crimes.
And for rudeness, an armed society being a polite one...
A former coworker of mine from Northern England related an anecdote about car thieves introducing themselves, muscle in tow, at the doors of their victims - give us the keys or suffer a vicious beating. How's that gun control working out for England? They've got some of the worst violent crime rates in the civilized world now.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/world/2008/07/18/knife-crime-spree-sweeps-britain-leaving-victims-and-fear-in-its-wake.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/violent-crime-underestimated-for-10-years-971489.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article568214.ece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html
Gun control in UK = FAIL
How's that immigrant issue working for you there, too? At least the IRA's quiet. Too bad that, under the banner of diversity, thenation that led the rise of Western greatness, that stewarded a Victorian empire over which the sun never set, is now a garbage dump that will accept anything - probably even Sharia law.
No wonder the BNP is attracting the unwashed. They're looking for an alternative to the failed leadership of labor and it's moronic platitudes. Oh well, have another drink out in the street, Cool Britannia... and lay face-down in the sewer, choking on your own bitter failures. It was a good run but the gentler side of the British psyche, the good-humored desire to help the worthless, has done you in. And now that you're sick, the 1.4M-staffed NHS is just the parasite that helps ensure that you stay good and sick. Indeed, that's doubtless why it caught the attention of "The One" - to the extent that he actually understands anything about history at all.
One of the facts that the control crowd likes to keep quiet is that the gun is a great equalizer by which a 105-lb woman can be as deadly as a 300-lb knuckle-dragger. So it is with individuals versus gangs - Sam Colt makes 'em all equal.
My own thinking is, and if you monitor the hard left in this nation via venues like Mother Jones, The Nation, KPFA, KPFK, FSRN, etc, that the hrd left fears gun ownershi pbecause they fear political violence: i.e., when people remember that they're human beings with rights and choose to forcibly resist their efforts to be put in a a box of indentured lifetime servitude.
That's what Pelosi was getting all quiver-lipped about.
I hope, someday, they're given good reason to cry.
I'm sure I must be a loony, to call failure when I see it. Or, in the very sarcastic words of one of your better-known Tories:
"...and William Shakespeare is the schmooze of the week
and anyone who says different is a f***ing antique..."
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Shuffler, did you get that from the kansas laws I posted?
The no guns sign is part of the concealed carry bill. No local or county law adopts the sign to restrict open carry. In Kansas, open carry is regulated on the local or county level and the only law is a local one that resticts you from stopping on the sidewalk within 200 feet of a drinking establishment.
Because these laws are regulated on the small gov level, they will differ everywhere you go. The law where you live likely differs from here.
PJ: whoa! :x lol
You have to remember that most people are trying to do what they believe is right. From the other side it may look crazy but you have to keep in mind they see you as crazy too (especially after that ;) only kidding).
As a left leaner myself I truly believe most of those on the left want the gun control because guns can kill people. Its that simple and I can understand their point, I disagree with them but made the effort to understand where they were coming from. I don't see a reason for certain guns or ammo to be in civilian hands but do understand the importance and right of having one (I went with the Glock 19 btw).
There are a lot of factors that go into a nation's well-being, guns are not the only one.
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Shuffler, did you get that from the kansas laws I posted?
The no guns sign is part of the concealed carry bill. No local or county law adopts the sign to restrict open carry. In Kansas, open carry is regulated on the local or county level and the only law is a local one that resticts you from stopping on the sidewalk within 200 feet of a drinking establishment.
Because these laws are regulated on the small gov level, they will differ everywhere you go. The law where you live likely differs from here.
PJ: whoa! :x lol
You have to remember that most people are trying to do what they believe is right. From the other side it may look crazy but you have to keep in mind they see you as crazy too (especially after that ;) only kidding).
As a left leaner myself I truly believe most of those on the left want the gun control because guns can kill people. Its that simple and I can understand their point, I disagree with them but made the effort to understand where they were coming from. I don't see a reason for certain guns or ammo to be in civilian hands but do understand the importance and right of having one (I went with the Glock 19 btw).
There are a lot of factors that go into a nation's well-being, guns are not the only one.
So if you have it concealed then pull it out and walk in :rofl
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So if you have it concealed then pull it out and walk in :rofl
lol I know, that's how I understand it, pretty ridiculous. You have to keep the gun concealed, printing could get you in trouble, and showing a little bit could get you in trouble. But showing the whole thing is legal. It's messed up, but that's why it's so advantageous to know the law thoroughly if you plan to carry a gun in either manner.
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Glocks? Don't like them much. I prefer my Sig P226 or my Colt M1911A1. It's just a pity they're only airsoft. :cry Not that an intruder will be able to tell the difference, no red tips in this country:aok If the worst comes to the worst. I'll give him a nasty sting with the BBs, the 1911 can poke holes in beer cans :lol If that doesn't deter him, the fact that it's a metal replica means I can smash him in the face. :devil
Our moronic government has just banned handguns, unfortunately that doesn't apply to gangsters and drug dealers, who favour Glocks and have their own way of importing them. So it's Airsoft or nothing.
Typically of course, it's never been easier to get your hands on an illegal gun.
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What government is that cpxxx?
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What government is that cpxxx?
Psst look at his location.... Ireland
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Don't go being smart on me Shuffler, is so uncharacteristic of you.
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PJ: whoa! :x lol
You have to remember that most people are trying to do what they believe is right. From the other side it may look crazy but you have to keep in mind they see you as crazy too (especially after that ;) only kidding).
As a left leaner myself I truly believe most of those on the left want the gun control because guns can kill people. Its that simple and I can understand their point, I disagree with them but made the effort to understand where they were coming from. I don't see a reason for certain guns or ammo to be in civilian hands but do understand the importance and right of having one (I went with the Glock 19 btw).
There are a lot of factors that go into a nation's well-being, guns are not the only one.
I don't doubt their intentions. However, being well-intentioned is the easy part. Thinking the problem through is the unglamorous heavy lifting of fixing problems. I see little skill in that discipline across the aisle -and often little on this side of it.
We can agree that Lenin"s Peace, Bread, Land or the French Revolution's Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite were well-intentioned, right? Indeed, I suspect "Asia for the Asians" and "Deutschland Uber Alles" were well-intentioned.
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Don't go being smart on me Shuffler, is so uncharacteristic of you.
:rofl
:aok
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As a left leaner myself I truly believe most of those on the left want the gun control because guns can kill people. Its that simple and I can understand their point,,,
I have never "understood" the left in their "point".
I hope what you meant to say is that/ "People kill people, with many different things including guns, like cars, trucks, planes, forklifts, etc etc".
I have been around Guns all my life, to this date, my guns nor anyone guns I have ever known has killed someone. Period.
People kill people. Guns don't kill people.
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I have never "understood" the left in their "point".
I hope what you meant to say is that/ "People kill people, with many different things including guns, like cars, trucks, planes, forklifts, etc etc".
I have been around Guns all my life, to this date, my guns nor anyone guns I have ever known has killed someone. Period.
People kill people. Guns don't kill people.
Absolutely correct.
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See Rule #14
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Unless one wants to get into a discussion involving murders with knives, hooks, cars, trucks, bats..... the list goes on.... even sheets. The gripe against guns is mostly fueled by simple ignorance.
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See Rule #14