Someone from this group was scheduled to meet with him...maybe Angus...I wonder if he got the chance.
But what about all of the relatives of all of the hundreds of British, Russian, and American airmen that he shot down?
Just think of all of the sweethearts and wives he must have devastated, as well as all of the fatherless children he must have created.
But what about all of the relatives of all of the hundreds of British, Russian, and American airmen that he shot down?
Just think of all of the sweethearts and wives he must have devastated, as well as all of the fatherless children he must have created.
---
But what about all of the relatives of all of the hundreds of British, Russian, and American airmen that he shot down?
Just think of all of the sweethearts and wives he must have devastated, as well as all of the fatherless children he must have created.
---
Great place to troll...
There are two sides to every war. Just think of all of the lives that could have been saved, if Capt Joseph Powers, Jr had succeeded in killing Rall, instead of just wounding him.
--
But what about all of the relatives of all of the hundreds of British, Russian, and American airmen that he shot down?Yeah...just think. I'm sure you think about all the animal habitats destroyed when your house was built. Or the pollution to the soil and water table as your sewage lines leach out away from your house. Probably even think about the toxic waste piling up in the ground every time you throw an empty paint can away or spill something petroleum based on the ground. Maybe you even think about the highly toxic chemicals used to make the vinyl in your car and on your house. It may even be possible that you think about the effects of the insecticide you use when you think it's necessary. Don't forget about the little leaks from your car.
Just think of all of the sweethearts and wives he must have devastated, as well as all of the fatherless children he must have created.
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But what about all of the relatives of all of the hundreds of British, Russian, and American airmen that he shot down?
Just think of all of the sweethearts and wives he must have devastated, as well as all of the fatherless children he must have created.
---
But what about all of the relatives of all of the hundreds of British, Russian, and American airmen that he shot down?
Just think of all of the sweethearts and wives he must have devastated, as well as all of the fatherless children he must have created.
---
Honored enemy....exceptional pilot and warrior.
Fair skies and tailwinds forever. :salute
I wonder if (American) people say the same of Mohammed Atta after 50 years from now.
Back in 1944 it would have been the right thing to do to strafe Rall and Hartmann in their parachutes.
There are two sides to every war. Just think of all of the lives that could have been saved, if Capt Joseph Powers, Jr had succeeded in killing Rall, instead of just wounding him.
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Goodbye Mr. Rall. I hope you lived a good solid meangingful life.
Salute witheld out of a deep respect for all allied airmen who lost their lives in the war your country started.
Don't forget that the Western nations' choices in the war left millions enslaved in Eastern Europe. What seems like an unambiguous war of good vs. evil to us is anything but to the Polish, Czech, Hungarian, etc. Withholding a salute from a great allied airman on those grounds would be ridiculous.
Salute witheld out of a deep respect for all allied airmen who lost their lives in the war your country started.
Think how many lives would be saved if Enola Gay was shot down.. :huh
It all depends on the point of view. War has only losers.
Read:
Nazis were the good guys after all, Soviet commies were the bad guys.
Goodbye Mr. Rall. I hope you lived a good solid meangingful life.
Salute witheld out of a deep respect for all allied airmen who lost their lives in the war your country started.
Doesn't matter, Gunther in his heart was doing what was right . . .
Read:
Nazis were the good guys after all, Soviet commies were the bad guys.
Had a guy break into my truck years ago. When caught he said I owed it to him because I was white. He though he was right in his heart too.
Do I respect him? No!
But what about all of the relatives of all of the hundreds of British, Russian, and American airmen that he shot down?
Just think of all of the sweethearts and wives he must have devastated, as well as all of the fatherless children he must have created.
what does this have to do with Serving your Country during wartime? better yet, what does this have to even do with this thread. :confused:
From a German perspective, you can argue that a LW pilot, during the war, felt very strongly about the civilian casualties caused by Allied bombing raids.
Camus said something to the effect that if he were faced with a dilemma between defending his mother or justice, he would choose the former every time.
As for civilian deaths, it's demonstrable that Allied bombing of German civilians in March and April of 1945 was totally gratuitous, and mostly a result of running out of military targets. Towns of only 10-15000 people became targets, and in some cases were swollen with refugees when attacked. These bombings are not comparable to the war-ending effect of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
All crimes of history remain crimes, even when compared with others more barbarous and more inhumane.
:salute Herr Rall.
Shuffler, either honor the man or don't, but please shut up. You are an embarrassment to this country, the way you talk.
:salute Herr Rall.
Shuffler, either honor the man or don't, but please shut up. You are an embarrassment to this country, the way you talk.
Goodbye Mr. Rall. I hope you lived a good solid meangingful life.
Salute witheld out of a deep respect for all allied airmen who lost their lives in the war your country started.
I'm confident that any surviving Allied airman would salute Rall, and he them... and technically England and France started the world war. Germany only started the war with Poland.
I'm confident that any surviving Allied airman would salute Rall, and he them... and technically England and France started the world war. Germany only started the war with Poland.
You really don't see things both ways do you when you post? Because anyone can easily turn all of that around on you, what you just said. Sad to say, but it happens in war. You're just too stupid to see both sides of a story.
:salute
I'm confident that any surviving Allied airman would salute Rall, and he them... and technically England and France started the world war. Germany only started the war with Poland.
Spin it hard.
There was a controversial lecture last year at our local university all about how the United States also forced Japan to attack us.
We basically left them with no other alternative, according to the speaker. We forced the war upon them.
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Germany attacked, invaded and occupied Poland on Sept 1, 1939. France and Britain had a defensive pact with Poland and declared war on Germany on Sept 3, 1939. Germany was aware of the pact and understood clearly that they were inviting war with Britain and France by invading Poland.
Germany declared war against the United States on Dec 11, 1941.
The embarrassment in this country is types who roll over and are afraid to hurt someones feelings with the truth. I love my country and my family. Any threat to either is therefore at risk.
From your past posts I put little into anything you say or do. While your free to your opinion... your opinion of me is of no consequence. Stay under your rock.
But what about all of the relatives of all of the hundreds of British, Russian, and American airmen that he shot down?
Just think of all of the sweethearts and wives he must have devastated, as well as all of the fatherless children he must have created.
---
Somehow you have grown up de-humanizing everyone that doesn't think or feel like you. Everyone of a different nationality. Hey, probably color too....once you start, it's a slippery slope.
When your country calls you and you are in uniform, you go. Do you think it's any different for Germans? Or Albanians? Or English? It matters not what the war is about, or whose politics are involved. When the bell rings you go.
So, you can either salute the man for his service and honor his death, or shut up and ignore the thread. Your precious opinion be damned, this is the wrong place for it. The man put his rear end out on the line not for Adolf Hitler, but for his country. I guess you think Americans did it for Roosevelt....not the United States. What a preciously small world you live in. All your talk of country, and yet others fought and died for individual ideals for their countries, and Americans fought and died for America. How pitifully small of you.
And if you want to go into causal relations on who started WW2..... simply look back to WW1. The armistice the Allies (English) put on Germany made it virtually assured they'd go to war again.
And Skuzzy... I'm sorry. I know you're gonna bat this one......
Some of you make it sound like he was on par with the likes of people who ran the gas-chambers and ovens or
some other kind of war crime..
I think the heart attack was not just 2 days earlier, but over a month earlier.
I am glad I had a chance to meet this fine gentleman a year or two ago.
:salute
But what about all of the relatives of all of the hundreds of British, Russian, and American airmen that he shot down?
Just think of all of the sweethearts and wives he must have devastated, as well as all of the fatherless children he must have created.
---
I wonder if (American) people say the same of Mohammed Atta after 50 years from now.
Back in 1944 it would have been the right thing to do to strafe Rall and Hartmann in their parachutes.
Think how many would have been saved if Germany and Japan had not started a war. Every death from then on can be attributed to them. No matter axis or allied.
What do you want.... a plaque in Jarusalem?
Your ignorance now as in the past speaks volumes.
I often think about how many of my relatives that I never got to meet because of Bomber Command and the 8th AF.
When you play the game AcesHigh, does it feel "real" to you? Are you in all actuallity an ACE WW2 fighter pilot? Uber skillz? Too many killz to count?
many were.But only by a-holes.
FYI Rall looked fine and fit only a month ago. For his age, great.
Anyway, on your evil-German quotes, Rall was quite clear on the subject. He said he felt betrayed by the system, using him and his whole generation for a hideous purpose. "Betrayed" was his exact wording. Knowing more veterans of wartime Germany, this is now more clear for me. These were guys in their uniform, and as guys, well there are many sorts of them.
Anyway.
I am saddened by the path that this thread has taken, and while indeed the LW fanboys have dubbed me as an "Allied fanboy", I must indeed ask some here to be a little more....polite.
:salute for you Rall.
:angel:
that's calling the kettle black now isn't it Shuffler.
take yourself back to that time period. put yourself in his shoes. can you honestly say you would have done anything differently than he did?Interesting game. When did Rall finally figure out that Hitler was a schmuck? Was Rall still flying combat when he finally figured it out, or was it well after Germany had surrendered when it, of course, made sense to plead no contest? Remember some German officers tried to assassinate Hitler in July, 1944. The average officer just performing his duty must have had some inkling that Germany was headed for catastrophe. Where was Rall when that happened? Seriously?
YOU mentioned earlier, that you were putting together audio from your meeting. will you be posting that sir?
and now a question for all........
take yourself back to that time period. put yourself in his shoes. can you honestly say you would have done anything differently than he did?
Interesting game. When did Rall finally figure out that Hitler was a schmuck? Was Rall still flying combat when he finally figured it out, or was it well after Germany had surrendered when it, of course, made sense to plead no contest? Remember some German officers tried to assassinate Hitler in July, 1944. The average officer just performing his duty must have had some inkling that Germany was headed for catastrophe. Where was Rall when that happened? Seriously?\
Again, I do not think poorly of Rall (Im more of a Steinhoff guy), and of course, I admire his skill and accomplishments as a ace figter pilot, But I also believe he was an aggressor in a war of great human global suffering and the military machine that he was an active member of was the primary catalyst for all that suffering. Again, no salute from me.
I will be making a text file of our conversation and will be happy to post some clips of it.
Putting myself in his shoes, I do not think I would have done different. Probably just poorer ;) And here to something completely new to you, - you won't find this anywhere online so easily I guess.
I met him and spent a day with him in 2001. He was very eager to tell me his story, and that was quite a bit just the two of us. He did venture into the meetings with Hitler and was very clear about it. He said that most were quite "taken" with Hitler in the beginning, him being no different from the rest. But when the war got more complex and gritty, it dawned onhim that this was all nonsense. Going to receive a medal from Hitler, he was disgusted (exact word) to see how far away the front seemed to be from the command, and how they lived like fat pigs in their own world. (closely correctly worded). He had the brass to ask Hitler when he thought when the war was over, and when Hitler went complicated about the issue, he confronted him with the statement of "some years back you said that this war was about to be over, but now it looks as it is never going to end".
That is more brass than most of you have.....
YOU mentioned earlier, that you were putting together audio from your meeting. will you be posting that sir?
and now a question for all........
take yourself back to that time period. put yourself in his shoes. can you honestly say you would have done anything differently than he did?
\
20 years ago, my opion was that if they fought for the nazis, they were (insert expletive here)
now that i';m an old guy.....sorta......i look at them as humans,.at least the pilots, and the infantrymen on the fronts.
even when they did realize that hitler was a loon, i think they felt that it was still go up and fight, or suffer at their comrades hands a fate that would be worse than anything they could or would encounter in the performance of their duties.
the thing we all are forgetting, is that we all have the benefit of hindsight. the question i asked is nearly impossible to answer honestly, as the majority of us aren't capable of doing what i said in that question. that's not a bad thing. my question was only intended to make us try to do that.
like i said before, we lost my great uncle, john hunsinger in europe. he was a medic in the infantry. he was killed trying to bring injured soldiers to safety.
i can no longer hold any animosity towards those that took his life though, as he died honorably, performing his duty. i'm sure the soldier that fired the round that killed him, also died, and also honorably performing his duty.
those guys were all just kids back then, and had the weight of the world on their shoulders.
this is just my opinion.....
You might consider factoring in Hitler just a bit, if you wouldn't mind. Thanks.
[/quote
Why...... They were civilians. Were they suppose to just leave because of Hitler. You have to remember that it was Hitler that brought work and self respect back to the German populace early inhis political carear. I seriously doubt that many if any common citizen knew what Her Hitler was up to and by the time they did it was too late to leave. Please factor a little thought in your comments before throwing every German under the Hitler bus.
:salute yes
Stanford Tuck and Adolf Galland were good friends after the war.
Britain is still the best country in the world.
When you play the game AcesHigh, does it feel "real" to you? Are you in all actuallity an ACE WW2 fighter pilot? Uber skillz? Too many killz to count?
Just curious.
I will be making a text file of our conversation and will be happy to post some clips of it.Aww how touching. Nazi's actually lied to him! Condeming Jews and Russian to total annihilation because they less than human didn't ring a bell at all, as soon as he realised they loosing war he feels betraid. Had they won WW2 Adolf would've been his flippin hero.
Putting myself in his shoes, I do not think I would have done different. Probably just poorer ;) And here to something completely new to you, - you won't find this anywhere online so easily I guess.
I met him and spent a day with him in 2001. He was very eager to tell me his story, and that was quite a bit just the two of us. He did venture into the meetings with Hitler and was very clear about it. He said that most were quite "taken" with Hitler in the beginning, him being no different from the rest. But when the war got more complex and gritty, it dawned onhim that this was all nonsense. Going to receive a medal from Hitler, he was disgusted (exact word) to see how far away the front seemed to be from the command, and how they lived like fat pigs in their own world. (closely correctly worded). He had the brass to ask Hitler when he thought when the war was over, and when Hitler went complicated about the issue, he confronted him with the statement of "some years back you said that this war was about to be over, but now it looks as it is never going to end".
That is more brass than most of you have.....
Aww how touching. Nazi's actually lied to him! Condeming Jews and Russian to total annihilation because they less than human didn't ring a bell at all, as soon as he realised they loosing war he feels betraid. Had they won WW2 Adolf would've been his flippin hero.
was there a possibility that front line fighter pilots didn't know about what was going on "back home"?Like what, mysteriously disappearing Jews since Hitler took over?
Like what, mysteriously disappearing Jews since Hitler took over?
You're right. I'm sure they could have googled it.Google what "Jews not human at all part" Preached by Adolf?
same as i said before.Oh yeah. It seemed normal when"back home" people walking around with yellow stars and later as he flew over conscamps in eastern Europe.
it's 1942. you're a front line fighter pilot.
you have virtually no way of knowing what's going on at home.
your job is to go fly your aluminum death trap and stop the enemy. that's it. it's a fight just to live to the next day.
Oh yeah. It seemed normal when"back home" people walking around with yellow stars and later as he flew over conscamps in eastern Europe.
yea, 'cause you can see that from 20,000 feet.Yep, pretty sure me109 had vertical take off option.
Yep, pretty sure me109 had vertical take off option.
Going after someone who had nothing to do with the holocaust only removes some of the burden from those who were truly responsible. The Germans were never collectively guilty. That was their motto post-war you know, "we are all guilty," but that only whitewashes the actions of the true criminals. There were specific people who made choices that shaped the events of history. Don't confuse them with a 20 year old sent to fight and die at the front.You lost me.Its not about holocaust.
p.s. 2 -> there never was a collectively guilty. I donīt feel guilty, nor my parents. And I trust my grandmother that she wasnīt guilty as well. So if some1 try to put guilt on a group of people he doesn`t know personaly, he should keep his mouth shut.
You lost me.Its not about holocaust.
Oh yeah. It seemed normal when"back home" people walking around with yellow stars and later as he flew over conscamps in eastern Europe.
Read Hannah Arendt's "Responsibility and Judgment." Collective guilt was most definitely a popular excuse for not prosecuting criminals post war.Read further back
You made it about the holocaust. See your quote here:
[...] Collective guilt was most definitely a popular excuse for not prosecuting criminals post war.
That is true. But there never was/is a collective guilt for the Germans.
Regards
SF
Oh, I absolutely agree. My bad if you had the impression that I thought that.
Not sure if I quite agree with that SirFrancis. The current generation of Germans are of course not guilty, but the WWII generation were in my opinion at least partly responsible for everything the Nazis did in their name. In principle, people deserve the government they have and are responsible for what that government does in their name.
...... Traudl Junge, Hitler's secretary, claimed she knew nothing of it. How can a fighter pilot on the eastern front be expected to know?...........Thats what i would say if i were Hitler's secretary.
There is no misunderstanding. But, as I stated before, people who don`t have any connections to the German WWII generation, should not be allowed to make any statements that conclude into the wrong impression.
Should a German be allowed to make a statement that gives the wrong impression? :confused:
However, that does not prevent me from saluting him as an honorable, duty bound warrior.
There is such a thing as responsibility for things one has not done; one can be held liable for them. But there is no such thing as being or feeling guilty for things that happened without oneself actively participating in them. This is an important point, worth making loudly and clearly at a moment when so many good white liberals confess to guilt feelings with respect to the Negro question. I do not know how many precedents there are in history for such misplaced feelings, but I do know that in postwar Germany, where similar problems arose with respect to what had been done by the Hitler regime to Jews, the cry "We are all guilty" that at first hearing sounded so very noble and tempting has actually only served to exculpate to a considerable degree those who actually were guilty. Where all are guilty, nobody is. Guilt, unlike responsibility, always singles out; it is strictly personal. It refers to an act, not to intentions or potentialities. It is only in a metaphorical sense that we can say we feel guilty for the sins of our fathers or our people or mankind, in short, for deeds we have no done, although the course of events may well make us pay for them...
Mr. Rall shares in some of that guilt, and the regime he fought for will always taint his impressive war record. However, that does not prevent me from saluting him as an honorable, duty bound warrior.That is a choice you make out of freewill and it is a good thing to have (freewill). Your explanation makes sense and I for one respect that.
I like this passage:
--from Arendt's "Collective Responsibility"
I find it very disrespectful what some of these clowns have said in this thread already so I won't comment anything. Open your own thread of whether or not German soldiers earned their respect, this is simply not the place to discuss such matters.
Salute to Herr Rall. :salute
-C+
See Rule #4
Funny, those who did defeat Hitler's war machine seem comfortable enough saluting a man of Rall's caliber. I'd let them be the ones who decide whether it's disrespectful or not; you cannot decide for them.Thank you. In memory of my grandfather (IL2 pilot) I'm gonna go with disrespectful.
You want to go around saluting Hitlers soldiers feel free, but I will be right behind you cleaning up your mess.
Funny, those who did defeat Hitler's war machine seem comfortable enough saluting a man of Rall's caliber. I'd let them be the ones who decide whether it's disrespectful or not; you cannot decide for them.I decide for myself.
How limited you are...
I find it very disrespectful what some of these clowns have said in this thread already so I won't comment anything. Open your own thread of whether or not German soldiers earned their respect, this is simply not the place to discuss such matters.
Salute to Herr Rall. :salute
-C+
The phrase, "Dont speak ill of the dead" has no meaning in this forum I guess....I went back a few pages....where did anyone speak ill of Rall?
See Rule #4
You seem to be obsessed with this topic, got to get your jabs in eh? :rofllunchtime, and I am enjoying the thread :cheers: when you find one you like, stick with it :rock