Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kazaa on October 13, 2009, 07:15:54 PM
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I’ve been flying F6F-5 for the past two months and I’m just amazed at how well I’m doing in it.
475 Kills, 47 Deaths, flying it like I stole it. I can’t even do those sort of numbers in a Spitfire! What gives?!?
:airplane:
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I love the Cat too. Congrats on doing well!! :aok
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WTG :aok
oh and...don't perk the F6F :)
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I’ve been flying F6F-5 for the past two months and I’m just amazed at how well I’m doing in it.
475 Kills, 47 Deaths, flying it like I stole it. I can’t even do those sort of numbers in a Spitfire! What gives?!?
:airplane:
My guess, incidental hits don't take your wings off.
Some people grossly underestimate the utility of durability.
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My guess, incidental hits don't take your wings off.
Some people grossly underestimate the utility of durability.
RE: The FM-2.
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Some people grossly underestimate the utility of durability.
Yup. I think the Hellcat is probably the toughest plane in AH2.
And a lot of fun to fly, too.
- oldman
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I’ve been flying F6F-5 for the past two months and I’m just amazed at how well I’m doing in it.
475 Kills, 47 Deaths, flying it like I stole it. I can’t even do those sort of numbers in a Spitfire! What gives?!?
:airplane:
Congrats, you just stumbled across the second most easiest and effective plane in AH. ;)
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In the hands of the USN it had a 19 : 1 K/D in WW-ll. Whats that tell you?
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In the hands of the USN it had a 19 : 1 K/D in WW-ll. Whats that tell you?
that it could BNZ / horde gang inexperienced enemy pilots with inferior aircraft. ;)
Kaz you know its the pilot not the plane. You could be flying anything and get those kills. :cheers:
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If not for the horrid visibility out back, combined with lone-wolf style AH play (read: no wingie to watch six) I'd fly it frequently.
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that it could BNZ / horde gang inexperienced enemy pilots with inferior aircraft. ;)
Kaz you know its the pilot not the plane. You could be flying anything and get those kills. :cheers:
The Japanese respected the F6F more than the F4U because it would mix it up with them rather than just BnZing like the F4U.
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I have also been flying it alot, love it.
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Sea-Jug...... :rock
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RE: The FM-2.
LIES!!!! the FM-2 sucks. :noid
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Don't perk it!
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In the hands of the USN it had a 19 : 1 K/D in WW-ll. Whats that tell you?
19 vulches and 1 auger?
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19 vulches and 1 auger?
Navy and Marine F6Fs flew 66,530 combat sorties (45% of all fighter sorties of the war, 62,386 sorties were flown from aircraft carriers) and destroyed 5,163 (56% of all Naval/Marine air victories of the war) at a cost of 270 Hellcats (an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 19:1).
The aircraft performed well against the best Japanese opponents :
... 13:1 kill ratio against Mitsubishi A6M
... 9.5:1 against Nakajima Ki-84
... 3.7:1 against Mitsubishi J2M
The F6F became the prime ace-maker aircraft in the American inventory, with 305 Hellcat aces.
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LIES!!!! the FM-2 sucks. :noid
No doubt !!!
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I've wondered why the J2M has such a, relatively, good K/D rate against the Hellcat. Did the Japanese put their best remaining pilots in it, or was it that much better than the other Japanese fighters?
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I've wondered why the J2M has such a, relatively, good K/D rate against the Hellcat. Did the Japanese put their best remaining pilots in it, or was it that much better than the other Japanese fighters?
Maybe because they were built in so few numbers and didn't see much action?
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Maybe because they were built in so few numbers and didn't see much action?
Assuming a reasonable number were downed, and the 3.7 indicates at least 37 were shot down and 10 Hellcats were lost to them. That is a large enough number that I'd not expect the number to be that much different than the Ki-84 or A6M.
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I've wondered why the J2M has such a, relatively, good K/D rate against the Hellcat. Did the Japanese put their best remaining pilots in it, or was it that much better than the other Japanese fighters?
I think it was the latter, at least against the Hellcat.
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I think it was the latter, at least against the Hellcat.
On the F4U:
The aircraft performed well against the best Japanese opponents with a 12:1 kill ratio against Mitsubishi A6M, 7:1 against Nakajima Ki-84, 13:1 against Kawanishi N1K-J, and 3:1 against Mitsubishi J2M during the last year of the war.
Very close to the F6F against the A6M and J2M, and a pretty impressive score against the N1K (anyone have stats for the F6F vs. the George?). Lower than I expected against the Ki-84, but still not dominated by the F6F in that category.
If that 19:1 ratio is against ALL types--fighters AND bombers--I'm willing to bet that a sizable part of the F6F's kill/loss ratio was influenced by fleet defense against the pretty hopelessly outclassed Japanese carrier-borne bombers and kamikazes towards the end of the war.
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If that 19:1 ratio is against ALL types--fighters AND bombers--I'm willing to bet that a sizable part of the F6F's kill/loss ratio was influenced by fleet defense against the pretty hopelessly outclassed Japanese carrier-borne bombers and kamikazes towards the end of the war.
Probably true of both the Hellcat and Corsair. Arguably the superior pilots of the Japanese Army and Navy air forces were mostly gone by the end of the first quarter of 1943, after the 1942 carrier battles and the 1942 Guadalcanal and early 1943 Yamamoto Solomons aerial counter-offensive. Like the P-47 in the ETO, the Wildcat was the fighter most responsible for winning the air war in the Pacific.
- oldman
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Probably true of both the Hellcat and Corsair. Arguably the superior pilots of the Japanese Army and Navy air forces were mostly gone by the end of the first quarter of 1943, after the 1942 carrier battles and the 1942 Guadalcanal and early 1943 Yamamoto Solomons aerial counter-offensive. Like the P-47 in the ETO, the Wildcat was the fighter most responsible for winning the air war in the Pacific.
- oldman
:aok
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Probably true of both the Hellcat and Corsair. Arguably the superior pilots of the Japanese Army and Navy air forces were mostly gone by the end of the first quarter of 1943, after the 1942 carrier battles and the 1942 Guadalcanal and early 1943 Yamamoto Solomons aerial counter-offensive. Like the P-47 in the ETO, the Wildcat was the fighter most responsible for winning the air war in the Pacific.
- oldman
What I'm saying though, is that the Hellcat's performance against the Zero, Ki-84 and J2M don't add up to a 19:1 kill/loss ratio, and these stats are VERY closely matched by the Corsair's own results. The Hellcat's highest ratio listed here was 13:1 against the A6M, so something is inflating the kill/loss rate of the F6F. Even if the Hellcat had an overwhelming advantage in kill/loss against the N1K, there weren't ENOUGH N1Ks for it to radically change these results.
Since the Hellcat was more widely deployed to the US carriers--and certainly much earlier--than the F4U, it was far more likely to encounter large numbers of Japanese single-engine strike craft and kamikazes, all of which suffered horrendous losses against American interceptors by the time the F6F appeared. As I said, I'm willing to bet that a sizeable part of that 19:1 is the result of slaughtering dive and torpedo-bombers the land-based Corsairs didn't see in the same numbers. Put the Corsair on the carriers in 1943, and I have no doubts we'd see a similarly elevated ratio.
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Interesting statistics here:
http://www.acepilots.com/planes/air_wins.html
The F4U only scored one victory from a carrier prior to 1945 (1 victory in 1944). During this time, AFAIK the only American unit that operated Corsairs off a carrier were VF-17, and this was only a temporary duty while the Bunker Hill's own fighter complement was conducting strikes with the Rogers providing CAP before returning to their shore base.
Once Corsairs appeared on the carriers in 1945, they were primarily dedicated towards air to ground work, further limiting their opportunities to engage and destroy enemy aircraft (even then, fleet-based F4Us managed to down 570-odd enemy aircraft in 6 months, 2/3 of what the F4F and its variants scored in the entire war).
I think this makes for an even stronger argument that the Hellcat's record owes a LOT to flying off the carriers while the Corsairs were stuck on land bases that often very quickly found themselves at the rear of advance (particularly after mid-1944 land-based units were increasingly relegated to mop-up work after the fleets came through).
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What is inflating the kill ratio is thousands upon thousands upon THOUSANDS of d3a, b5n, and similarly easy targets that flew straight and level and let themselves be shot down.
They didn't call it the Marianas Turkey Shoot because it was a nice challenge for USN pilots. And it wasn't the only turkey shoot, either.
P.S. Yes, and I wanted to include into that d3a/b5n comment the addition of bettys, nells, or any other twin engine level bomber still operating at war's end.
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That's not to take away from a very impressive k/d, but there's definitely an "*" that goes next to it considering the Hellcat had opportunities the for victories the F4U didn't get.
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See Rule #6
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That's not to take away from a very impressive k/d, but there's definitely an "*" that goes next to it considering the Hellcat had opportunities the for victories the F4U didn't get.
It does not mean that the F6F was a better plane than the F4u. It means that the F6F was the better choice for the navy as their main fighter. Grumann instead of making the best fighter possible, made the best package for the navy. While the F4U was undergoing endless improvement, modifications and deck qualifications, the F6F were being rolled out of the production line at record braking pace, taking off from their CV and turkey shooting every thing with a red sun on it.
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It does not mean that the F6F was a better plane than the F4u. It means that the F6F was the better choice for the navy as their main fighter. Grumann instead of making the best fighter possible, made the best package for the navy. While the F4U was undergoing endless improvement, modifications and deck qualifications, the F6F were being rolled out of the production line at record braking pace, taking off from their CV and turkey shooting every thing with a red sun on it.
Trying to figure out where it looked like I was disagreeing with you.
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It means that the F6F was the better choice for the navy as their main fighter.
Er.. no.
It means the F6F was in "widespread" service a year before the F4u was. Can't rack up a giant kill/death ratio if you only have 1 or 2 units flying it.
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Er.. no.
It means the F6F was in "widespread" service a year before the F4u was. Can't rack up a giant kill/death ratio if you only have 1 or 2 units flying it.
Beg to differ there Krusty. 56th FG was the only unit to use the P-47 exclusively up until the end of hostilities and they were the top squadron of the ETO.
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Perhaps so, but in the pacific, the number of engagements the F6F had before the F4u was "widely" operational was staggering.
Compare the total P-47 ratio (not just one group) with the total... say... spitfire ratio.
I'm not saying one plane is less effective or less capable, I'm saying one had a helluva lot more time, opportunity, and enemies, to rack up a better historical kill ratio than the other.
Doesn't mean one was better than the other (which the post I quoted seeme to imply). Just saying one had a chance the other did not, and with equal time, opportunity, and exposure to the enemy, that kill ratio may have been different between the Hellcat and Corsair.
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Trying to figure out where it looked like I was disagreeing with you.
I was just making a remark on your remark, not arguing with you.
Er.. no.
It means the F6F was in "widespread" service a year before the F4u was. Can't rack up a giant kill/death ratio if you only have 1 or 2 units flying it.
And the reasons why it was not in "widespread" service till a year later, even though development started much before the F6F, are exactly what made the F6F the better choice. When you have a plane with better performance than the opposition, getting even better performance is negligible vs. simply being there in time when needed. Availability, serviceability, costs and safety were all in favor of the F6F. So what if F4u would beat it in a mock dogfight? considering it is the only other plane who can in the theater and they were on the same team. Over spec was F4U's greatest fault - it was better than required.
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Good analysis bozon.
The fact that the F6F reached such high levels of operability , first, is even more in contrast with the F4U when you consider the prototype F6F first flew in July 1942 , while the first prototype F4U flew in May 1940.
That the Hellcat went ahead so quickly is to its credit, not fault.
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The Japanese respected the F6F more than the F4U because it would mix it up with them rather than just BnZing like the F4U.
Obviously they didn't have the gamey F4U model that we are stuck with then. :rolleyes:
Can't remember his ID now, but few years ago we had an excellent Hellcat only stick.
<S>...-Gixer
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Compare the total P-47 ratio (not just one group) with the total... say... spitfire ratio.
I suspect the P47 wins that one.
- oldman
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I suspect the P47 wins that one.
- oldman
You may be right, at that! I was trying to come up with an example off the top of my head.
Also, limiting it to "planes in the air" (not on the ground) would cut that back significantly, too! :)
P.S. Bozon, most of the issues keeping F4us off of CVs were due to fear on the part of folks making the decisions, NOT a problem with the plane itself. So, given the same chance at engaging the enemy... You're saying just because it was there, the F6F was the better plane.
That's too simplistic a view.
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You may be right, at that! I was trying to come up with an example off the top of my head.
Also, limiting it to "planes in the air" (not on the ground) would cut that back significantly, too! :)
P.S. Bozon, most of the issues keeping F4us off of CVs were due to fear on the part of folks making the decisions, NOT a problem with the plane itself. So, given the same chance at engaging the enemy... You're saying just because it was there, the F6F was the better plane.
That's too simplistic a view.
Actually from some of what I've seen posted here regarding VF-17 the Rogers proved the Corsair could operate safely from the carriers, it was the logistics of supplying parts for two different fighters that became one of the main concerns.
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Obviously they didn't have the gamey F4U model that we are stuck with then. :rolleyes:
Can't remember his ID now, but few years ago we had an excellent Hellcat only stick.
<S>...-Gixer
Greebo?
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Those are the type of numbers I would expect from you Kazaa after one of our engagements. You were flying with another F6F and really suppressing all the knights at tank town. I was able to get you to chase me alone and we fought for several minutes until I was able to damage you. However your buddy came in to rescue you and you were able to land.
With two excellent F6 pilots working together and flying smart, I can see how a 10:1 K/D would be attainable.
Congrats, you fly it well.
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I remember when the A6M5b was announced and the Hellcat fans said how much they were looking forward to blowing it out of the air, how the Hellcat was going to dominate so badly and so on. I said they were probably underestimating the A6M5b as most players wouldn't know how to, or have the patience, to fight the A6M5b correctly.
It took more than a year before the Hellcat managed a positive K/D ratio against the A6M5b in AH. Too many people just wanted to turn fight because the "knew" the Hellcat dominated the A6M5.
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Greebo?
No, not Greebo.... :headscratch:
<S>...-Gixer
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Drex sucks. :t
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No, not Greebo.... :headscratch:
<S>...-Gixer
Mathman?
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Obviously they didn't have the gamey F4U model that we are stuck with then. :rolleyes:
Can't remember his ID now, but few years ago we had an excellent Hellcat only stick.
<S>...-Gixer
I would prob have to say
Mathman, Balsy, Greebo, Slapshot, Laz, Morpheus and Widewing are your top of the teir F6f flyers here in Aces High
been so long since I have seen Drex fly and a few others that slips my memory at this time........ but each of those I listed are/were very capable of holding their own against most anyone........
edit: below is an old write up I did for the F6f sereis plane back in Air Warrior ( which was the -3 model in AW )
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revised 8:47 PM 11/19/99:
The
Grumman F6F-3 "HellCat"
Of
Kesmai's AirwarriorIII
World War II History:
The F6F-3, Hellcat, was a direct response to the needs the Royal Navy and
U.S. Navy needed to put forth a maximum effort to win air superiorty over
the Imperial Japanese Navy and Luftwaffe of Germany. After data recorded from
the aerial combat between Grumman's F4F Wildcat(aka Britian's Marlet-FM1 /
FM2) and the Luftwaffe's Fw's and 109's, they came to the conclusion they
were outmatched in both speed and climbing ability, so on June 30th, 1941 the
U.S.Navy signed a contract with Grumman to build the F6F-3, later to be known
as the HellCat. After aquiring a japanese zero, and restoring it to flying
capability, the Grumman"IronWorks"division had a starting point to building
the F6F. They now knew what was needed to defeat the enemy's superior fighter
. This, they were able to design a faster, more durable, fighter that could
take the Pilot to Hell and back and be able to turnaround and do it again.The
one fight that forever sealed the reputation of the Hellcat was the Battle of
the Philippine Sea, always to be remembered as "the Great Marianas Turkey
Shoot". During this remarkably one sided engagement between U.S. and Japanese
carrier forces, somewhere between 320 and 345 Japanese carrier aircraft were
shot out of the sky, mostly by Hellcats from the U.S. carriers, Lexington,
Essex, Bunker Hill, Princeton and Cowpens. The total combat loss of USN air-
craft, of all types was just 30. The Hellcat demonstrated itself to be
superior to the A6M Zero. It was completely obvious that Grumman had
fulfilled their design goals with the F6F. Having served duty on all fronts
of the war, the F6F tallied up an impressive 19 to 1 kill ratio, having downed
over 5,000 enemy planes, and also held the plane with the most Fighter Aces
of the war, with some even from the Royal Navy of the British.
At the end of World War II, Adm. Chester W. Nimitz,the Chief of Naval
Operations, ordered the formation of a flight demonstration team to keep the
public interested in Naval Aviation. The Blue Angels performed their first
flight demonstration less than a year later in June 1946 at their home base,
Naval Air Station (NAS)Jacksonville,Florida. Flying the Grumman F6F Hellcat,
they were led by Lt. Cmdr. Roy "Butch" Voris.
4,402 F6F-3's were produced, with 252 going to the British Fleet Air Arm.
Grumman F6F-3 specifications:(WorldWarII Data)
Type: Carrier or land-based Fighter
Crew: Pilot
Armament: six wing mounted .50 cal machine guns(400 rounds per gun)
(various later models were equipped with cannons,rockets,
cameras, and radar)
Ordanace: 2 1000lb bombs(later models)
Dimensions and Weight:
Length: 33' 7"
Height: 13' 1"
Wingspan: 42' 10"
Wing area: 334 sq. ft
Empty Weight: 9238 lbs
Gross Weight: 11,381 lbs
Propulsion :
No. of Engines: 1
Powerplant: Pratt & Whitney R-2800-10(Early Production Models)
Pratt & Whitney R-2800-10W/with Water injection(Later
Production Models)
Horsepower: 2000 hp
Performance:
Range: 945 miles
Cruise Speed: 168 mph
Max Speed: 335 mph(sea level)/376 mph(17,300 ft)
Stalling speed: 76 mph
Takeoff distance: 780 ft
time to 20,000 ft - 7 minutes
Climb: 2980 ft/s
Ceiling: 38,400 ft
The F6F in Airwarrior3(AWMV):
In Airwarrior, the HellCat(F6F-3) can be summed up as a jack of all trades,
it's not great at any one thing over the AW3 planeset, but it is good at every-
thing. It can divebomb, Stallfight, E fight, and do the ocassional Boom and Zoom
tactics. The most recognizeable traits of the HellCat is it's excellent turn-
ing ability, the DiveBrakes, its enormous ammo load, Its climbing ability,
one of the highest "hardness" ratings, and its ease of flying. Besides being
on the slow side, it also has a trait of Oil starvation while inverted or if
you accidently fly beyond its envelope and get into a spin, to save the
engine from being porked don't stay inverted for long periods of time, if you
spin , cut throttle to 0% til you have recovered, this will save the engine.
The F6f is a wonderful plane to fly and can handle alot of horsing around,
but when you push it beyond its envelope it can and will go into abrupt spins.
AW3(AWMV) performance:
Characteristics of the F6F-3:
-Turn Rate: 36.3dps with 19% fuel at sea level.
-Max Instantaneous Turn Rate: _dps
-Roll Rate (150knts): 6.17 sec/roll........w/rudder 5.12 sec/roll
-Roll Rate (300knts): 5.84 sec/roll........w/rudder 5.04 sec/roll
-Durability: 4.2 units (AW Hardness Rating)
Source: AW3 Data.
(Turn Rate data provided by `Badz)
Air Speed and Rate of Climb for the F6F-3:(data provided by Yoda)
AirSpeed (kias) Rate of Climb (ft/min)
DECK - 267 3250
5,000 - 260 3190
10,000 - 252 2900
15,000 - 248 3100
20,000 - 242 2850
25,000 - 225 2330
30,000 - 199 1600
Other Important F6F-3 Data:(data provided by "TC")
Minimum speed for a immelman/loop:140 kias, with flaps deployed at top
Minimum speed for a double immel:250 kias, flaps used on second immel
Minimum alt for a split-s:1,000ft(1k)
*NOTE*For the manuevers mentioned above the speeds listed for each applys
to pilots that have had some air time in the game, also each manuever can be
executed at slower speeds if you take the time to practice each one, and
learn how slow you can really go and still execute it properly.
minimum takeoff speed:76 kias with flaps deployed:62 kias
stall speed:60 kias level-flight with flaps deployed:54 kias
Time from takeoff to 10k:2min 57sec w/ROC:3.5
Time from takeoff to 20k:5min 52sec w/ROC:3.5
FlyingTips for the Hellcat(F6F-3):
IN Airwarrior the F6F is outclassed in aspect to most of the other fighters
when speed is the issue, but its greatest assets are its turning ability and
ammo load, along with its armor. So when flying the "CAT" its imperative
to use good SA(situational awareness). Once in a dogfight it's to the death
because you want be able to run most of the time..............
"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't, sooner
or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass."
Lieutenant Dave"Preacher"Pace, USN
U.S.Navy Fighter Weapons School Instructor
The f6f is great up to 25k , when you merge use lead turns, get the advantage
early, he who turns first wins the edge. If the enemy has more E bleed it
from him, keep making nose to nose passes til you are co-E or he has less
stay with high and low yoyo's but always maintain enough E to go vertical.
When slow , drop them flaps, the f6f gains its best turn rate with flaps
deployed and ias around 150 to 120 ias. they will help you turn in a smaller
radius, therefore setting up a leadshot, by turning inside your opponent,
and remember to keep constant check on your views, always know what is around
you,so if you have to go defensive you can. The f6f has a heck of a divebrake
, use it wisely.... If you're coming in fast chop throttle hit brakes and
jerk it around, it will confuse the enemy making him to think you blew right
by, just remember, if you do this, you need to make a quick accurate shot,
for you have just broken the cardinal rule of never give up the advantage,
and blowed all the E you might have had. When in defensive, chop throttle and
drop flaps and hold them brakes on, go nose-low into a defensive spiral dive
, most all planes will pass you on the way down, so check views and position
your self on their six, hit the gas and bring in flaps , looky there you just
got the offensive advantage back.
Fight your fight, not your oponents, if you make him fly to you you hold the
advantage, if you fly to him, he is drawing you in to your own demise!
I keep my alt when possible if a 51 or Niki(any Boom & Zoom planes)is diving
in on me. I go nose to nose as he passes on the way down. I level off keep my
alt, he has to blow his E to get back to me, which is where I want him, I
turn better in f6f when slow, he on the other hand doesn't. Eventually you
will have the edge on him. It's your ball game now, use the various yoyo's,
immelmans, loops to drain him, then when you get the chance nail that 6!
On a final note, most of these tips and specs were taken from FullRealism
flight, but most if not all information here works just the same for Relaxed
Realism, so study long, practice hard, and Straighten Up and Fly Right......
Johnny Spencer
Handle:TequilaChaser Cpid: TC or 'TC'
AWMV Staff Mentoring Manager
[AWTC]-Trainer-
WWW.AirWarrior.com WWW.EA.com
TequilaChaser@triad.rr.com
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Hey, I remember reading that one back in the day. Didn't realise it was you who had written it. Good stuff there TC! Thanks for the walk down memory lane.
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My understanding was that along with the Corsair, early development on the Hellcat began almost as soon as the Wildcat hit the carriers.
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If that 19:1 ratio is against ALL types--fighters AND bombers--I'm willing to bet that a sizable part of the F6F's kill/loss ratio was influenced by fleet defense against the pretty hopelessly outclassed Japanese carrier-borne bombers and kamikazes towards the end of the war.
Actually, post war Navy statistics show that the bulk of F4U victories after they finally deployed to CVs were against obsolescent types used as kamikazes. By then, the F4F and F6F had obliterated most of the IJN's experienced pilots. Marine and land based Navy F4Us faced much tougher Japanese pilots in the Solomons long before the Corsair was declared operational on carriers.
My regards,
Widewing
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My understanding was that along with the Corsair, early development on the Hellcat began almost as soon as the Wildcat hit the carriers.
The Navy asked Grumman to begin designing the Wildcat's replacement in June of 1941. A contract for a prototype was signed on June 30, 1941.
My regards,
Widewing
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I would prob have to say
Mathman, Balsy, Greebo, Slapshot, Laz, Morpheus and Widewing are your top of the teir F6f flyers here in Aces High
Personally I would put geepel up there in Hellkitty ability. He flyies it almost exclusively.
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Obviously they didn't have the gamey F4U model that we are stuck with then. :rolleyes:
Can't remember his ID now, but few years ago we had an excellent Hellcat only stick.
<S>...-Gixer
That would be ... "MathMan"
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That would be ... "MathMan"
I haven't seen Mathman in several years... Too bad. He was a good guy, for a math teacher.....
My regards,
Widewing
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I haven't seen Mathman in several years... Too bad. He was a good guy, for a math teacher.....
My regards,
Widewing
Yes he was ... as were most of the FDBs ... I miss SOB too, he made me laugh all the time.
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The High-Low Merge is definatly great with heavy planes with lots of power and teh F6F does retain E well in the verticle like other American planes.
Ultimately though, the F6F was more widespread not only because it was introduced early but also because its a supped-up Wildcat and shares very similar characteristics whereas the F4U was a totally different, very sensitive plane in terms of maintenance and actual flying. If I see more F6Fs flying, I will get into the Japanese planes more - flying Japanese planes against German planes ruins the experience somehow. . . in terms of style.
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Ultimately though, the F6F was more widespread not only because it was introduced early but also because its a supped-up Wildcat and shares very similar characteristics whereas the F4U was a totally different,
actually the F6f Hellcat series is a totally different plane built from scratch, just like the F4U......... The F6f was Grumman's answer to the IJA/IJN's A6m(2,3,5 etc ) zero..... because the F4F was underclassed compared to the Zero.......
most would classify the FM2 as the supped up version of the F4F wildcat.......
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actually the F6f Hellcat series is a totally different plane built from scratch, just like the F4U......... The F6f was Grumman's answer to the IJA/IJN's A6m(2,3,5 etc ) zero..... because the F4F was underclassed compared to the Zero.......
Except for the fact the F6F began development long before the US started fighting Zeros....
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The
Grumman F6F-3 "HellCat"
World War II History:
The F6F-3, Hellcat, was a direct response to the needs the Royal Navy and
U.S. Navy needed to put forth a maximum effort to win air superiorty over
the Imperial Japanese Navy and Luftwaffe of Germany. After data recorded from
the aerial combat between Grumman's F4F Wildcat(aka Britian's Marlet-FM1 /
FM2) and the Luftwaffe's Fw's and 109's, they came to the conclusion they
were outmatched in both speed and climbing ability, so on June 30th, 1941 the
U.S.Navy signed a contract with Grumman to build the F6F-3, later to be known
as the HellCat. After aquiring a japanese zero, and restoring it to flying
capability, the Grumman"IronWorks"division had a starting point to building
the F6F. They now knew what was needed to defeat the enemy's superior fighter
.
back in 95 or 96 I found this information straight from the archives of Grumman's Website Portal.....
NOTE that I wrote it for AW, and referenced it as the F6f-3, where as there was the prototypes ( ie....F6fX1, 2 etc..)edit , was the XF6f-1 and XF6f-3
so yes, it was started and built before the US ever actually fought the Zero.....
of course, the internet and research information is by far wide and more available than it was back then.. and I have not researched stuff like this for a long while........how ever accurate or inaccurate it maybe....
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Kill to D ratios don't mean that much. A kill can be counted if a fighter pilot shoots off any large piece of an enemy plane, evan a flap.
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Widewing has a good point. The F6F was fighting a lot of inexperienced pilots during the end of the war. The Wildcats took out their share of the good pilots in the early war years.
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I love you Kazaa.
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Widewing has a good point. The F6F was fighting a lot of inexperienced pilots during the end of the war. The Wildcats took out their share of the good pilots in the early war years.
My point referred to the F4U after January of 1945. Yet, you are correct that many experienced Japanese Naval Aviators aboard carriers were already dead when the F6F-3 entered combat in August of 1943. Many, however, were lost with their carriers and not in air to air combat.
When the Hellcat appeared, there was still a reasonable core of skilled fighter pilots in the IJN. The Hellcat killed off many of those. By the time the F4U finally went aboard CVs, the typical IJN fighter pilot had little time in fighters. Only a handful of the original pilots from late 1941 were still alive and in combat. The Navy recognized that late-war opposition was sub-par and stated as much in their post war analysis, making particular note that the F4U was shooting down many "obsolescent types" after January of 1945; mentioning the Ki-27 Nate as an example. I'm sure the Hellcats were feasting on these as well.
My regards,
Widewing
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I love you Kazaa.
I love me too. :cool:
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The IJN air arm, the IJN itself, pretty much died in the battles of the Philippine sea. CVs, airplanes, pilots, all of them unable to ever be replaced. It was a far more serious loss then Midway. The Great Marianas Turkey shoot was, in effect, the death knell of a once great navy.
And it wasn't just superior airplanes like the Hellcat. Or even a far superior training pipeline for pilots. By that time the USN outclassed the IJN in about every way imaginable. Most of all in radar, fire control, battle management, communications. Even our submarine doctrine was far superior. It was USN boats shadowing IJN battles groups, on their own, operating on their own, that gave us constant Intel on the deployment of IJN assets. Attacking them often.
The IJN simply made enemies with a better Navy. Our congress, with a stroke of the pen, ordered 32 Essex class super carriers to be built, Of which we built 26 "only ending cause we won the war", along with their highly trained air squadrons. This isn't even counting our light CVs or shore based USN and USAAF land based fighters. How in hell were the Japanese ever going to beat that? They ended up sending these poor schmucks up, off of converted cruiser hulls, with 50 hours air time and in fighters far outclassed. Against an enemy who knew they were coming.
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In Aces High the F4F is easily a superior fighter to the A6M2. It always tickles me when I read that the A6M2 was regarded as the superior fighter.
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In Aces High the F4F is easily a superior fighter to the A6M2.
News to me.
- oldman
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I'm not talking about a hermetically sealed duel, Oldman. Anyone who flew the recent Coral Sea scenario knows that my assesment is accurate.
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I'm not talking about a hermetically sealed duel, Oldman. Anyone who flew the recent Coral Sea scenario knows that my assesment is accurate.
IF the F4F has at least 2 of the following:
1) An altitude advantage.
2) Is anything approaching a decent shot
3) Has a wingman with good communication
4) Can stay out of a protracted turning engagement
in a scenario-type situation I would agree that the F4F's assets make her superior. Then again, even the lowly P-40B will handle the Zero under the above circumstances.
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Saxman,
He is right, even ignoring your rules. The only time I feel like I have the upper hand in an A6M2 over an F4F is when I get one alone, at low altitude so it can't dive away. It takes so long to kill an F4F that any uncoordinated cooperation between multiple F4Fs means a slaughter for the A6M2s. In the A6M2 you have to park yourself on the bellybutton of an F4F for an extended time, even if you are being accurate with the 20mm cannons, and for that whole time you cannon use your maneuverability advantage and are easily shot down.
F4Fs in AH don't have bother with any Thatch weave tactics, they can simply use one as bait to take the pounding while their friends blast the A6Ms. The durability difference feels greatly exaggerated.
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News to me.
- oldman
In real life a 55 mph speed advantage is huge. So is, at 20,000', a far superior roll rate and dive characteristics. So is pilot armor and sealed tanks.
The biggest problem with the games Hellcat is she is often flown with, and dive bombing with, heavy ords packages into clouds of Spit-16s, LA-7s, Hurris, K-4s, P-51s, 190s.....ect Even for CV protection, in the game which is often down low, the zeke shines more cause its such a great turner and zoom climber.
The Hellcat climbs with the zeke "with wep", out accelerates it, is significantly faster both on the deck and up high, carrys a large load of ordinance, and is far more survivable for the pilot.
In my mind the Japs made only one truly "great" fighter in the war, the KI-84 "Frank". Even that was land based and gelded by lousy fuel quality. And it wasn't available in significant quantities until '44 when most of the great Jap pilots were dead and the final high performance versions of Yank/Allied fighters were taking to the air in vast numbers. The IJN never made a CV based fighter that could truly be called "great" in the final 3 years of the war.
Still the zeke was the right plane at the right time for the IJN. Unfortunately for them it was also the wrong plane at the wrong time for them.
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The IJN air arm, the IJN itself, pretty much died in the battles of the Philippine sea. CVs, airplanes, pilots, all of them unable to ever be replaced. It was a far more serious loss then Midway. The Great Marianas Turkey shoot was, in effect, the death knell of a once great navy.
The Battle of Coral Sea, Battle of Miday and the Battle of Guadacanal were far more responsible for the losses of the veteran and experienced IJN air crews than the Battle of the Philippine Sea. By the time the Battle of the Philippine Sea took place in 1944, the IJN already had lost a majority of their experienced air crews and most of the IJN air crews were far less experienced and it showed during the battle. The Battle of the Philippine Sea was just the final nail in the coffin for the IJN.
ack-ack
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In real life a 55 mph speed advantage is huge. So is, at 20,000', a far superior roll rate and dive characteristics. So is pilot armor and sealed tanks.
The comparison was the F4F-4 vs the A6M2, not the F6F-5....
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm not talking about a hermetically sealed duel, Oldman. Anyone who flew the recent Coral Sea scenario knows that my assesment is accurate.
Well...over the years I've garnered a fair amount of time flying A6M2s against F4Fs and vice versa, singly and in crowds. Given equal numbers - or really, even greater numbers for the Allies - and equal pilots, seems to me the Zekes win just about every time. Wildcats have to fly together or they die. The Zeke pilots often forget to fly together, and end up being alone against greater numbers.
- oldman