Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wolfala on October 13, 2009, 08:41:26 PM
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http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/6862.1AD03.PDF
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/7357.Inv_5F00_3674.pdf]
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/6862.1AD03.PDF
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/7357.Inv_5F00_3674.pdf
I wanted to run this by you guys before I did something. I had 2 sticky valves in a Continental IO-360ES - I sent it in for R&R recently. The labor to R&R #1 and #5 was 11.5 hours @ $90 - assuming that is physically removing and reinstalling, seems a bit on the high side from previous experience - esp when I was there most of the time. A line item on the next line was Cylinder repair $1,515. I thought to myself, wait a sec - even if all you did was drop the valve, ream the guide - or at very worst replace the guide and valve - your parts count isn't breaking $550. Where does the other $1000 go away to? It sure as heck isn't labor.
Figured 2 exhaust valves: $230 each = $460
2 exhaust valve guides: $20 each = $40
2 Gasket sets: $10 each = $20
8 Key valve springs?: $.27 each = $2.00
4 Roto cap: $23.00 each = $90
8 Tab lock washers: $.50 cents each = $2.00
3 Outter Spring 625958: $6.00 each = $18.00
4 Inner spring 625957: $2.50 each = $10.00
1 Stud: $7.00 each = $7.00 each
When the engine was over temped back in Jan 08 - the inspection was flat rated at $250 and parts were whatever they were. But all those valves were trashed - so you had new guides, keys, springs, gaskets, rings, + rehoning. There wasn't any of that here - certainly no rehoning. And that bill back then was $1800 with everything overhauled. This was an IRAN on the exhaust valve guide only for that sticky situation. So, WTF?
The other things on the list - muffler, voltage regulator, I don't have any issue with, though they could knock .5 off on labor for the right side exhaust since it was coming off anyway. Could you guys give this a once over? It just doesn't smell right from all the work we did on the engine from the last 6 cylinders last year.
An overhauled/exchange jug is typically $600 to $800 depending on where you go ($600 Gibson, $800 RAM). A simple re-valve should not exceed $300-$350 per cylinder. Maybe $400 at the outside.
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I don't have any experience with aircraft engine repair, but I do know that if you're ever not happy with an invoice, request a more detailed breakout. If the shop quibbles about it, let them know that your next stop will be the local FAA office, followed by taking the engine to another shop to determine what work was done and what parts are new, ensuring all parts are certified, etc, followed by a call to your lawyer to recover teardown/inspection costs from the shop that gave you such a questionable invoice to begin with.
For that matter, if they give you a hard time, make them show you THEIR invoices for the parts they put in your engine, and let them know you'll be going to the part manufacturer for lot numbers in case the engine fails early. Again, if they argue, let them know the next folks they'll be talking to are the FAA and your lawyer.
The last time I discussed acft maintenance with my civilian flt instructor, he said that the FAA doesn't like A&Ps who cut corners or do shady repair work. If they gave you a bill that was unexpectedly high, you need to demand a full accounting of all repairs including a very detailed breakdown of parts and labor. Hopefully he won't hold your motor hostage for payment but if he won't tell you what he did to it, then do you really want to hang it back on the plane?
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I almost forgot... Hopefully you have a copy of the statement of work you agreed on when you gave the motor to the shop... That's your contract and if he deviated from it without your permission then he eats the cost.
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Hmm...
1.3 hrs to replace a voltage regulator? Did he have to build it from scratch or just unbolt the sucker and bolt on a new one? The install new regulator labor was almost as much as R&R both mufflers. Muffler parts look pretty darn expensive too... You've got $2500+ in parts overall... Get a full list of what went in there.
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Hmm...
1.3 hrs to replace a voltage regulator? Did he have to build it from scratch or just unbolt the sucker and bolt on a new one? The install new regulator labor was almost as much as R&R both mufflers. Muffler parts look pretty darn expensive too... You've got $2500+ in parts overall... Get a full list of what went in there.
The VR is housed inside a Master Control Unit - it doesn't sit outside flapping in the breeze, so you gotta break open a Black Box to get at it. That part I am not debating and won't bust their balls on. The muffler was 2 separate things, the flame tube on both were gone - and there are 2 different mufflers, 1 with a heat muff for bypass heating for the cabin and the other for just straight exhaust. Those were $250 and $400 something respectively. I can bust their balls for 1.0 install since they removed the right side anyway to get the cylinders off.
But the cylinders are totally out of line with reality. There isn't any 10% markup on the planet that would come up with those numbers for anything less then overhauling 3 cylinders, let alone just IRAN'n 2 exhaust valve guides.
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Get a breakdown, it could be a simple math error somewhere, it wouldn't be hard to hit a four instead of a one when multiplying out markups.
When I was a service writer I did that a couple of times, thankfully due diligence kept the mistake from making it to the customer.
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i'm not familiar with aircraft work. i am familiar with automotive though.
when you pay his charges(besides parts), you're paying not only for his time right then and there, but for all of his training, experience, equipment, lisences, permits, insurance, employees, and other things.
now, on the other hand, the last i checked, at freeflight aviation....the club i fly with, labor was only in the 50-70 range.
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when you pay his charges(besides parts), you're paying not only for his time right then and there, but for all of his training, experience, equipment, lisences, permits, insurance, employees, and other things.
Those costs should be factored in the price per hour. They should not write additional hours to cover those costs. That's illegal.
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Guys,
I think what it comes down to is this - unless those cylinders were made of unobtanium, I have prior invoices for fully overhauled cylinders for a fraction of what they charged from large shops i've delt with. Powermaster Engines in Tulsa, Air West in San Carlos CA, Tims Aircraft in Long Beach - none of that work was to exceed $300 per jug. I'll get a detailed breakdown and threaten to ruin their reputation within the Cirrus community since they are a service center. That'll get their attention really quick.
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http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/6862.1AD03.PDF
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/7357.Inv_5F00_3674.pdf]
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/6862.1AD03.PDF
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/7357.Inv_5F00_3674.pdf
I wanted to run this by you guys before I did something. I had 2 sticky valves in a Continental IO-360ES - I sent it in for R&R recently. The labor to R&R #1 and #5 was 11.5 hours @ $90 - assuming that is physically removing and reinstalling, seems a bit on the high side from previous experience - esp when I was there most of the time. A line item on the next line was Cylinder repair $1,515. I thought to myself, wait a sec - even if all you did was drop the valve, ream the guide - or at very worst replace the guide and valve - your parts count isn't breaking $550. Where does the other $1000 go away to? It sure as heck isn't labor.
Figured 2 exhaust valves: $230 each = $460
2 exhaust valve guides: $20 each = $40
2 Gasket sets: $10 each = $20
8 Key valve springs?: $.27 each = $2.00
4 Roto cap: $23.00 each = $90
8 Tab lock washers: $.50 cents each = $2.00
3 Outter Spring 625958: $6.00 each = $18.00
4 Inner spring 625957: $2.50 each = $10.00
1 Stud: $7.00 each = $7.00 each
When the engine was over temped back in Jan 08 - the inspection was flat rated at $250 and parts were whatever they were. But all those valves were trashed - so you had new guides, keys, springs, gaskets, rings, + rehoning. There wasn't any of that here - certainly no rehoning. And that bill back then was $1800 with everything overhauled. This was an IRAN on the exhaust valve guide only for that sticky situation. So, WTF?
The other things on the list - muffler, voltage regulator, I don't have any issue with, though they could knock .5 off on labor for the right side exhaust since it was coming off anyway. Could you guys give this a once over? It just doesn't smell right from all the work we did on the engine from the last 6 cylinders last year.
An overhauled/exchange jug is typically $600 to $800 depending on where you go ($600 Gibson, $800 RAM). A simple re-valve should not exceed $300-$350 per cylinder. Maybe $400 at the outside.
I agree that the total cost seems high. 11.5 hours of labor to do the work represented by the parts list seems too much. You're not paying him to learn how to remove and reinstall components, nor how to do the repair work. You could have bought brand new cylinder assemblies to replace both jugs for about another $1000. The only thing I can think of is that he's marking up the repair parts. I had O-320 cylinders completely overhauled with new valves, et al, for less than $1000 per jug. I'd be curious as to whether or not a) they had to do considerably more machine work than normal or b) he's errantly assessing the doctor/lawyer tax, since you're got a Cirrus. $90/hr shop rate seems extremely high. In SoCal 5 years ago, $60/hr was average.
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Let us know how it goes Wolfala.
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Those costs should be factored in the price per hour. They should not write additional hours to cover those costs. That's illegal.
THAT's what i was saying...that they're factored into the hourly rate.
he also may have been charging "book" regardless of the actual time it took him. i know a lot of shops that do that. it's legal too....not right in my mind, but legal.
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I agree that the total cost seems high. 11.5 hours of labor to do the work represented by the parts list seems too much. You're not paying him to learn how to remove and reinstall components, nor how to do the repair work. You could have bought brand new cylinder assemblies to replace both jugs for about another $1000. The only thing I can think of is that he's marking up the repair parts. I had O-320 cylinders completely overhauled with new valves, et al, for less than $1000 per jug. I'd be curious as to whether or not a) they had to do considerably more machine work than normal or b) he's errantly assessing the doctor/lawyer tax, since you're got a Cirrus. $90/hr shop rate seems extremely high. In SoCal 5 years ago, $60/hr was average.
OK so I called the shop that did the work to fax me the invoice they submitted over. The breakdown was as follows:
Inspection: $140 per jug x 2: $280
Exhaust valves: $250 x 2: $500
Roto Coils: $32 x 4: $130
Key: $3.00
Exhaust guides: $10 x 2: $20
Gasket: 2 x $9: $18
Spring: 4 x $3.5: $14
Spring: 3 x $7: $21
Stud: 1: $10
Tab locks: 8 x $1: $8
$1015 ish
Hrm...batter up?
:banana: :banana: :bolt:
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http://www.aeroinstock.com/products/346--thru-360-Series/5843/0/product_cat/index.html
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OK so I called the shop that did the work to fax me the invoice they submitted over. The breakdown was as follows:
Inspection: $140 per jug x 2: $280
Exhaust valves: $250 x 2: $500
Roto Coils: $32 x 4: $130
Key: $3.00
Exhaust guides: $10 x 2: $20
Gasket: 2 x $9: $18
Spring: 4 x $3.5: $14
Spring: 3 x $7: $21
Stud: 1: $10
Tab locks: 8 x $1: $8
$1015 ish
Hrm...batter up?
:banana: :banana: :bolt:
Well, he should have only charged the $1015 then, and then whatever labor it took for him to remove and install. I thought he did the work himself, so that makes the 11.5 hours of labor even worse. I've seen efficient mechs pull a jug in about 15 minutes, if all the cowling is off, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, and say 1 hour per jug on and off. A good, organized shop should have standard rates for these types of tasks, at least for the labor required. Anyway, I think you got bit by the "Certified Cirrus Service Center" bug. I don't know what it costs those guys to get that certification, but there's a hefty mark up on your invoice, for sure.
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Well, he should have only charged the $1015 then, and then whatever labor it took for him to remove and install. I thought he did the work himself, so that makes the 11.5 hours of labor even worse. I've seen efficient mechs pull a jug in about 15 minutes, if all the cowling is off, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, and say 1 hour per jug on and off. A good, organized shop should have standard rates for these types of tasks, at least for the labor required. Anyway, I think you got bit by the "Certified Cirrus Service Center" bug. I don't know what it costs those guys to get that certification, but there's a hefty mark up on your invoice, for sure.
see......that's the thing though. if all the cowling was off. that's figured into the labor. then there's those like i mentioned, that'l charge book, regardless of the time spent.
i pulled the cylinder off of a schweizer cb300 a couple years ago. i never did one before that. it took me an hour or so....and those helis don't have any cowling in the way. i don't know how long it took them to put it back together, as i wasn't there for that.
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Well, he should have only charged the $1015 then, and then whatever labor it took for him to remove and install. I thought he did the work himself, so that makes the 11.5 hours of labor even worse. I've seen efficient mechs pull a jug in about 15 minutes, if all the cowling is off, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, and say 1 hour per jug on and off. A good, organized shop should have standard rates for these types of tasks, at least for the labor required. Anyway, I think you got bit by the "Certified Cirrus Service Center" bug. I don't know what it costs those guys to get that certification, but there's a hefty mark up on your invoice, for sure.
Not quite, I got bit by the "i've worked with these mechanics before and trust them" bug - and genuinely I did. But this is a case of where they tried to pull a fast one and didn't think I knew what I was talking about. I spoke with CDC HQ - and their leverage point is pulling their accrediation, and they would lose their MSRP markup - which would hurt a hellova lot more. That, and I push a lot of business towards them being an instructor - I just think that is diddlyed up and short sighted.
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I completely rebuilt my entire firewall forward on my Grumman a few years ago, including overhauling the engine. If the mech is getting in there to remove the exhaust parts anyway, that labor shouldn't be tacked onto the cylinder removal, and the cylinder removal becomes seriously easy. All you have to do is remove the fuel injectors (in Wolf's case), spark plugs, valve covers, rocker arms, base nuts, and pull the push rods. Once that stuff is out of the way, the cylinder comes right off. If you have the tools and the know-how, its very quick.
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Not quite, I got bit by the "i've worked with these mechanics before and trust them" bug - and genuinely I did. But this is a case of where they tried to pull a fast one and didn't think I knew what I was talking about. I spoke with CDC HQ - and their leverage point is pulling their accrediation, and they would lose their MSRP markup - which would hurt a hellova lot more. That, and I push a lot of business towards them being an instructor - I just think that is twittleed up and short sighted.
Either that or they were just sloppy with their invoicing--I've seen that too. Either way, I hope this works out for you. Ah, the joys of plane ownership...(I sold mine last month, so I don't have those anymore :D)
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Speaking from running a shop for a number of years, 11.5 hours likely includes his time spent dealing with acquiring parts, consulting manuals, logbook entries etc. There is a lot more to a job then just pulling a part and replacing with new.
That said, we always provide a detailed hourly breakdown of what we do, ie. 1.5 hours cowling tear down, 1.5 hours removing jugs, 3 hours iran, 1 hour office, 1.5 hours replacing jugs, .75 hour voltage regulator replacement, 1.5 hours button up, and .75 runup and ops check. Seems to be fairly standard to expect that. I know I never rush when I am doing a job, but that is because I am thorough as my name and livelihood depend on it being done correctly.
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Either that or they were just sloppy with their invoicing--I've seen that too. Either way, I hope this works out for you. Ah, the joys of plane ownership...(I sold mine last month, so I don't have those anymore :D)
Yea working on selling mine. Cest la vi
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Either that or they were just sloppy with their invoicing--I've seen that too. Either way, I hope this works out for you. Ah, the joys of plane ownership...(I sold mine last month, so I don't have those anymore :D)
That's a shame Stoney. I'd say if you wanted to hop in and take a day trip you shoulda headed up this way, NE of GSO.
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Speaking from running a shop for a number of years, 11.5 hours likely includes his time spent dealing with acquiring parts, consulting manuals, logbook entries etc. There is a lot more to a job then just pulling a part and replacing with new.
That said, we always provide a detailed hourly breakdown of what we do, ie. 1.5 hours cowling tear down, 1.5 hours removing jugs, 3 hours iran, 1 hour office, 1.5 hours replacing jugs, .75 hour voltage regulator replacement, 1.5 hours button up, and .75 runup and ops check. Seems to be fairly standard to expect that. I know I never rush when I am doing a job, but that is because I am thorough as my name and livelihood depend on it being done correctly.
An update:
Called Cirrus mothership and spoke with the tech rep who handled my plane when the engine suffered thermal runaway by the guy taking off with the boost pump off and an insane deck angle. He had the invoices from when that engine work was done back in California, and we compared notes. Out west, there was no upcharge on anything - it was just T&M and the cylinders were subcontracted out, paid as invoiced, etc. I think he said they called around 12 other shops to compare notes on what they charge - all were within 5% of each other. Next came an email to the to the shop regarding the upcharges, and their response below. Figured we'd not come at them like complete dicks if this was one bad egg doing the billing that they could redeem themselves.
Email from me below - and the rep from the shops response: -----------------------------
Clint, yesterday you sent me the following invoices for work done on N2075T.
I called into question line 4: 7140-004 Cylinder Repair for $1515.25 when you sent it to me. You then sent me the invoice from the cylinder repair shop detailing the items worked on in PDF 1AD03 - with the work authorized to be done to R&R 2 sticky exhaust valves. I called you back saying $1,500 to repair the two cylinders is way over the top, when an overhauled/exchange jug is typically $600 to $800 depending on where you go ($600 Gibson, $800 RAM).
A repair involving a re-valve should not exceed $300-$350 per cylinder. Maybe $400 at the outside. The parts alone wouldn't break $600 combined for both cylinders. That figure which pretty much matches Pine Mountains price within 5% is as follows:
2 exhaust valves: $230 each = $460
2 exhaust valve guides: $20 each = $40
2 Gasket sets: $10 each = $20
8 Key valve springs?: $.27 each = $2.00
4 Roto cap: $23.00 each = $90
8 Tab lock washers: $.50 cents each = $2.00
3 Outter Spring 625958: $6.00 each = $18.00
4 Inner spring 625957: $2.50 each = $10.00
1 Stud: $7.00 each = $7.00 each
I was curious as to why the item prices were whited out on the invoice you sent to me from Pine Mountain. Pine Mountain faxed me the invoice for the work performed on my 2 cylinders this morning, item prices not whited out - which came to $1015.25. Can you explain the $500 dispairity between the Pine Mountain invoice & the invoice from Curtiss Aero that you e-mailed to me. I could have shipped my cylinders to any number of shops on the west coast or to Powermaster Engines in Tulsa that I have done trusted business with & directed business to in the past, however on your recommendation I allowed your team to use your perfered engine shop.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards,
--Shops Response
Alex,
The disparity lies in the fact that the invoice you received from Pine Mountain, and the costs you're referring to from other vendors is the price an FBO or Service Center receives. Obviously, our business is based on the profit margin we are able to make on parts and services from our vendors. Just as obvious is that no company sells their parts or services AT cost so I am confused as to why you believe you are entitled to them? That is the business model as you are well aware of and that is the way Service Centers and maintenance facilities stay in business.
Our vendors, including John and Pine Mountain provide their parts and services at a discount and we provide a service to the customer at a markup. A customer such as yourself would not receive that price on a service. As John informed you directly the price to you would have been exactly what we charged you.
The calculations you've so kindly provided amount to $649. You have coincidentally forgotten to account for John's labor in your inquiry. That amount brings the total to 1015.25. As for the reason the prices were whited out is to protect the relationship we as a Service Center have with our vendors. I guarantee another maintenance facility would not provide that type of privileged information.
In the future if you feel you might do better servicing the aircraft yourself, or shipping the parts to another vendor of your choice that is your prerogative. In the meantime that is the price for the services provided.
If I may also add Devon informed you on the status of the cylinders and the fact we were shipping them to Pine Mountain for service, a service you agreed upon.
Clint
Manager of Ground Operations
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So today when I call back into the mothership they say they have a conf call with the owner about the manager above - apparently this isn't the first time he's done toejam like this and the owner might not be in the know about it. And with that, is the data from other shops in the area about their best practices, how they invoice, what realistic charges are for this work - and generally economic reasons why not to fleece guys. Will advise later on the outcome.
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An update:
Called Cirrus mothership and spoke with the tech rep who handled my plane when the engine suffered thermal runaway by the guy taking off with the boost pump off and an insane deck angle. He had the invoices from when that engine work was done back in California, and we compared notes. Out west, there was no upcharge on anything - it was just T&M and the cylinders were subcontracted out, paid as invoiced, etc. I think he said they called around 12 other shops to compare notes on what they charge - all were within 5% of each other. Next came an email to the to the shop regarding the upcharges, and their response below. Figured we'd not come at them like complete dicks if this was one bad egg doing the billing that they could redeem themselves.
Email from me below - and the rep from the shops response: -----------------------------
Clint, yesterday you sent me the following invoices for work done on N2075T.
I called into question line 4: 7140-004 Cylinder Repair for $1515.25 when you sent it to me. You then sent me the invoice from the cylinder repair shop detailing the items worked on in PDF 1AD03 - with the work authorized to be done to R&R 2 sticky exhaust valves. I called you back saying $1,500 to repair the two cylinders is way over the top, when an overhauled/exchange jug is typically $600 to $800 depending on where you go ($600 Gibson, $800 RAM).
A repair involving a re-valve should not exceed $300-$350 per cylinder. Maybe $400 at the outside. The parts alone wouldn't break $600 combined for both cylinders. That figure which pretty much matches Pine Mountains price within 5% is as follows:
2 exhaust valves: $230 each = $460
2 exhaust valve guides: $20 each = $40
2 Gasket sets: $10 each = $20
8 Key valve springs?: $.27 each = $2.00
4 Roto cap: $23.00 each = $90
8 Tab lock washers: $.50 cents each = $2.00
3 Outter Spring 625958: $6.00 each = $18.00
4 Inner spring 625957: $2.50 each = $10.00
1 Stud: $7.00 each = $7.00 each
I was curious as to why the item prices were whited out on the invoice you sent to me from Pine Mountain. Pine Mountain faxed me the invoice for the work performed on my 2 cylinders this morning, item prices not whited out - which came to $1015.25. Can you explain the $500 dispairity between the Pine Mountain invoice & the invoice from Curtiss Aero that you e-mailed to me. I could have shipped my cylinders to any number of shops on the west coast or to Powermaster Engines in Tulsa that I have done trusted business with & directed business to in the past, however on your recommendation I allowed your team to use your perfered engine shop.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards,
--Shops Response
Alex,
The disparity lies in the fact that the invoice you received from Pine Mountain, and the costs you're referring to from other vendors is the price an FBO or Service Center receives. Obviously, our business is based on the profit margin we are able to make on parts and services from our vendors. Just as obvious is that no company sells their parts or services AT cost so I am confused as to why you believe you are entitled to them? That is the business model as you are well aware of and that is the way Service Centers and maintenance facilities stay in business.
Our vendors, including John and Pine Mountain provide their parts and services at a discount and we provide a service to the customer at a markup. A customer such as yourself would not receive that price on a service. As John informed you directly the price to you would have been exactly what we charged you.
The calculations you've so kindly provided amount to $649. You have coincidentally forgotten to account for John's labor in your inquiry. That amount brings the total to 1015.25. As for the reason the prices were whited out is to protect the relationship we as a Service Center have with our vendors. I guarantee another maintenance facility would not provide that type of privileged information.
In the future if you feel you might do better servicing the aircraft yourself, or shipping the parts to another vendor of your choice that is your prerogative. In the meantime that is the price for the services provided.
If I may also add Devon informed you on the status of the cylinders and the fact we were shipping them to Pine Mountain for service, a service you agreed upon.
Clint
Manager of Ground Operations
--------
So today when I call back into the mothership they say they have a conf call with the owner about the manager above - apparently this isn't the first time he's done soup like this and the owner might not be in the know about it. And with that, is the data from other shops in the area about their best practices, how they invoice, what realistic charges are for this work - and generally economic reasons why not to fleece guys. Will advise later on the outcome.
how long to install the valves and guides? how long to r&r the head? including removing the cowling, and test flight?
how about oil?
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After getting that e-mail response back I'd be stopping all business with that shop and make sure I told everyone I cared about to avoid them in the future as well. They pride themselves on being a "premium shop" and have the mind set that if you are a plane owner you are rich coupled with if you have to ask, you can't afford it. I would imagine they feel they have all the business they can handle and there are no other options available.
I think I'd send a copy of that e-mail to the owner of the business and explain that is why you are no longer doing business nor recommending them to others in the future.
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I have no clue about aircraft mechanic shops but it sounds to me like the guy charged you "book hours" plus some on every single component. That would account for some of the higher than expected costs.
Shady turd if you ask me...I don't do business with people like that.
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I have no clue about aircraft mechanic shops but it sounds to me like the guy charged you "book hours" plus some on every single component. That would account for some of the higher than expected costs.
Shady turd if you ask me...I don't do business with people like that.
On some items yes - but I gotta beat him up on the stuff I caught him on first. The rest will be addressed once that is settled.
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If they have an expensive car or a really nice plane, charge them extra. At least you are not going to sit back and take it, sad still that world revolves around this money game.
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If they have an expensive car or a really nice plane, charge them extra. At least you are not going to sit back and take it, sad still that world revolves around this money game.
Ya know, its like this. I've got a 4th generation construction company that is somewhere north of 104 years old. Think how long we'd last if we tried to diddly our customers? Comeon - all business's survive on their reputation within their respective communities. Hopefully if the owner is not aware of his managers actions he will quickly become aware. You pay people a fair price for a service - but you don't gouge them b/c you think they can afford it. Your business is only as good as your next customer.
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Only people that can get away with it are people who don't plan to stick around after the first large profit margin is reached? It's kind of insulting to you, more than anything. Yeah hi, we service your machines and assume you are a fool all included in the price.
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I know nothing about aircraft avation but I do know that a lot of repair shops around the states follow a simple business practice. Get as much money as you can for the least amount of work. The dealers are even better at this than private shops.
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I know nothing about aircraft avation but I do know that a lot of repair shops around the states follow a simple business practice. Get as much money as you can for the least amount of work. The dealers are even better at this than private shops.
dealers for the most part, charge "book". this means, that for instance, your lexus needs a new steering rack. the book calls for 4.5 hours to do this job. that's what you'll pay in labor, regardless if the tech does the job in 2 hours, the quoted time of 4.5, or even if he takes 6 hours.....they charge you that 4.5.
then you pay for the rack...which, regardless of where they buy it from.....toyota, napa, auto zone, etc, they will mark it up. this markup varies a LOT. then you pay for fluid, and probably an alignment.
then you pay a shop fee, and a hazmat fee.
most private shops(at least in my area) are anywhere from $10 to $50 an hour cheaper on their labor rate than the dealer is.
most private shops will use "book" as an estimate only. that's what i do. on that same steering rack, i'd quote you that 4.5 hours. if it takes me longer, then i lose. if i do it in 2 hours, i adjust the bill accordingly. most shops in my area do the same thing.
we also mark up the parts. there is no way that any of us can or will buy a part for $100, and then sell it to the customer at $100. we'd be out of business in short order.
most of us sell the parts to the customer for "list" or somewhere near list.
this is just like anything you buy.
john makes shirts. he sells them to bob for $1. bob sells them to jim's shirt supply for $2. jims shirt supply sells them to several shirt retailers for $3 each. these retailers sell them to you and me for $6.
take that very same model, and apply it to automotive parts.
when i work on bmw's, mercedes, etc, i often come in significantly lower than the dealer...or so i'm told. i use the same quality parts, my work is either equal to or better than the dealer techs work, and the customer leaves happy.
there are a lot of repair shops out there that are rip-offs. they;re becoming rarer though.
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That's why if you know what the problem is... buy the parts yourself. Most shops will try to hide some of the actual price by marking up parts and adding various "fees".
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That's why if you know what the problem is... buy the parts yourself. Most shops will try to hide some of the actual price by marking up parts and adding various "fees".
shop fees, i don't do. i do, however, charge hazmat fees. it costs me money to get rid of tires, old antifreeze, oil, tranny fluid, etc.......
the thing to be careful with, with bringing your own parts, is: some shops will charge you a higher labor rate. only the shops labor is guaranteed. if the part you brought goes bad next week, you will pay again. some shops won't even install any parts that they don't supply.
again, i will install customer supplied parts. i charge them the same labor, as anyone else pays. i do also, though, charge when your self supplied part goes bad,,,,,,,
i try to be as fair as i can to people. i'll never get rich that way, but i am havin fun runnin my own place though. :aok
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My feelings on this whole thing: Pay your bill. Stop complaining. If you think they overcharged you, take your business elsewhere in the future. I doubt they will miss another aircraft owner second guessing them and complaining about the bill, it's driven enough shops out of business.
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Dago, what if the cost is about $300 more than it should be? I am totaly ignorant to the subject matter at hand but i am sure that $500 of labour charge is too large. I have done jobs in the fencing business where i worked solid for three days and then had the customer complain about roughly $200 of labour costs added on top (half of which was for diesel to get there and back). I refused to move and he paid in the end, so i see where you are coming from, but surely there is a line that you have to draw. If the bill was $1000 too high would you just pay it and change companies next time? So it comes down to a matter of principle and how high each customers threshhold for being ripped off is.
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personally, if somene comes to me, and tells me they think my price is too high before i do the job, i'll shop around, and see what i can do.
if they agree to my price, and then complain after the work is done....well, that is just downright unreasonable. then to top it off, if they try to tell me that it should cost "X" amount? they screwed the pooch at that point, because i'll not budge at that point.
i often find it's someone thinking they can play hardball with me, as they;ve all come back eventually.
the funny thing is, that someone will complain about a bill being a little high on somethign that their lives depend on, but they won't hesitate to go out and spend $60 on jeans, or $100 on silly sneakers(because their friends have em and they're "in"), or $500 on a compound bow.
if ya don't like their business practice, then go somewhere else. that's what i do.
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Something to think about:
Shop rate was charged at $90 per hour to work on an aircraft. Many car shops will hit you up for $100.
An aircraft mechanic has had to go to great expense in money and time to earn his federal airframe and powerplant mechanics license.
He has had to invest a small fortune in tools and special equipment, in aircraft maintenance manuals and federal regs, AD's etc, and all must be kept current.
An aircraft mechanic must work on aircraft knowing that if he makes a mistake, people may die, he may be arrested and imprisoned for negligence, he may be sued for all he has and all he ever will earn.
He works in an industry where job stability is unknown and shops come and go.
Then, with all that in mind, he will constantly experience aircraft owners who have spent better than a quarter for a million dollars on their toy coming in and nit-picking him over a bill that sometimes barely covers the cost of the work with a very small margin of profit.
Is it really any wonder that the average A&P leaves the industry after 17 years, or that most A&P schools cannot keep their doors open any longer because nobody wants to enter this field of work?
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Something to think about:
Shop rate was charged at $90 per hour to work on an aircraft. Many car shops will hit you up for $100.
An aircraft mechanic has had to go to great expense in money and time to earn his federal airframe and powerplant mechanics license.
He has had to invest a small fortune in tools and special equipment, in aircraft maintenance manuals and federal regs, AD's etc, and all must be kept current.
An aircraft mechanic must work on aircraft knowing that if he makes a mistake, people may die, he may be arrested and imprisoned for negligence, he may be sued for all he has and all he ever will earn.
He works in an industry where job stability is unknown and shops come and go.
Then, with all that in mind, he will constantly experience aircraft owners who have spent better than a quarter for a million dollars on their toy coming in and nit-picking him over a bill that sometimes barely covers the cost of the work with a very small margin of profit.
Is it really any wonder that the average A&P leaves the industry after 17 years, or that most A&P schools cannot keep their doors open any longer because nobody wants to enter this field of work?
PRETTY much the same at an auto repair shop.
south jersey, labor rates are anywhere from 85 to 125 or so. the 125 is a mazda dealer.
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My feelings on this whole thing: Pay your bill. Stop complaining. If you think they overcharged you, take your business elsewhere in the future. I doubt they will miss another aircraft owner second guessing them and complaining about the bill, it's driven enough shops out of business.
Dago,
There are several points you are failing to get - so let me help you out.
1. The parent company did not agree with the upcharges - since:
A: It makes them look bad when the plane gets a bad reputation for being ridiculously expensive to impart simple repairs. That has a direct impact on their ability to sell future airframes to owners who want to upgrade.
B: It makes their service center network look like nothing more then a shell game if there is no consistency in billing practices. 12 other shops were called - all their prices were within 5% of each other. I know how to take the engine apart and the time it takes, I did it last year when I was in A&P school in Palo Alto CA. The reason I subcontracted the work out to the shop was b/c I didn't have time to tear it down b/c of needing to run a construction company. If you want to see crooks - come to my neighborhood for a day. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,241456.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,241456.0.html)
C: As mentioned before, repair shops/service centers/schools (of which this is both) survive DIRECTLY on their reputation within their respective communities. As an instructor and senior member within the national owners group - I have a very direct influence on sending new or existing owners to that facility for anything - whether it is training, renting or repairs.
2. You are exactly correct on having an estimate done - and there was one which I had in hand and shoved down their throat. Hence the $1015 number vs the $1515 number.
3. The potential losses resulting from losing their ability to markup parts from the factory from MSRP would be far more devastating then simply trying to screw me. Look, as I said before - if I tried to screw every one of my customers, would my company have lasted 104 years? I doubt it.
Anyway - back to the end result of this: The "manager", a 25 year old know nothing was "acting on his own" and the owner plead ignorance and the adjustment was made. There was also an implicit understanding between all parties that if there was one more report of irregular billing - they lose their certs.
2.
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Dago,
There are several points you are failing to get - so let me help you out.
1. The parent company did not agree with the upcharges - since:
A: It makes them look bad when the plane gets a bad reputation for being ridiculously expensive to impart simple repairs. That has a direct impact on their ability to sell future airframes to owners who want to upgrade.
B: It makes their service center network look like nothing more then a shell game if there is no consistency in billing practices. 12 other shops were called - all their prices were within 5% of each other. I know how to take the engine apart and the time it takes, I did it last year when I was in A&P school in Palo Alto CA. The reason I subcontracted the work out to the shop was b/c I didn't have time to tear it down b/c of needing to run a construction company. If you want to see crooks - come to my neighborhood for a day. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,241456.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,241456.0.html)
C: As mentioned before, repair shops/service centers/schools (of which this is both) survive DIRECTLY on their reputation within their respective communities. As an instructor and senior member within the national owners group - I have a very direct influence on sending new or existing owners to that facility for anything - whether it is training, renting or repairs.
2. You are exactly correct on having an estimate done - and there was one which I had in hand and shoved down their throat. Hence the $1015 number vs the $1515 number.
3. The potential losses resulting from losing their ability to markup parts from the factory from MSRP would be far more devastating then simply trying to screw me. Look, as I said before - if I tried to screw every one of my customers, would my company have lasted 104 years? I doubt it.
Anyway - back to the end result of this: The "manager", a 25 year old know nothing was "acting on his own" and the owner plead ignorance and the adjustment was made. There was also an implicit understanding between all parties that if there was one more report of irregular billing - they lose their certs.
2.
Let see, you said you wanted an "estimate" not a bid, then want to make sure they only charge the estimate, regardless of what else they might find or have to do that may be been unforeseen. No job ever works out as perfectly as hoped, issues always pop up.
You basically tell me that you will blackmail them with threats of bad mouthing in the aviation community if they charge you above estimate. Nice guy you are.
You get the parent company to play the "customer is always right" game so you won't badmouth the parent company, get them to cutoff the A&Ps at the knees. Yeah, my kind of customer.
You think they will lose what, the company accreditation or do you think they will lose their A&Ps if they present an "irregular" bill? They won't lose their A&Ps over billing, that is for sure, as long as their physcial work on the airplane is in compliance with all applicable FAR's. The FAA knows all about cheap owners, they violate them all the time.
If I owned the shop, hearing what you have said, not only would I not fear losing you as a customer, I would strongly suggest in the future you take your business elsewhere. Your billing issue sure doesn't sound like an outrageous bill, just maybe slightly higher than you expected.
Cheap owners and the games they try to play with shops keep many out of general aviation, and also drive many very good and conscientious people out.
I know a guy who, with his brother started up and developed a large chain of supermarkets, then sold them to one of the largest supermarket parent companies in the country. He is now a multi-millionaire. Came up to me and another guy at the local airport, knowing we both have A&P's, told us he bought two cheap tires for his Beech from Trade-A-Crate, and was kind of hoping to find someone to install them for him. I pointed to the local shop, said "they can do it for you". He frowned, hoped we would volunteer to do it for free. Typical cheap bellybutton owner, wants to do it for a penny, when he can easily afford to pay a professional to do it. Every A&P runs into this all the time. Sorry, but I have no patience for owners whining about every freaking nickel. Next time you are shooting an approach into low minimums at night over inhospitable terrain, think about that guy and how you can trust him with your life, yet not trust him with a bill.
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Let see, you said you wanted an "estimate" not a bid, then want to make sure they only charge the estimate, regardless of what else they might find or have to do that may be been unforeseen.
You basically tell me that you will blackmail them with threats of bad mouthing in the aviation community if they charge you above estimate.
You get the parent company to play the "customer is always right" game so you won't badmouth the parent company, get them to cutoff the A&Ps at the knees.
You think they will lose what, the company accreditation or do you think they will lose their A&Ps if they present an "irregular" bill? They won't lose their A&Ps over billing, that is for sure, as long as their physcial work on the airplane is in compliance with all applicable FAR's.
If I owned the shop, hearing what you have said, not only would I not fear losing you as a customer, I would strongly suggest in the future you take your business elsewhere. Your billing issue sure doesn't sound like an outrageous bill, just maybe slightly higher than you expected.
Cheap owners and the games they try to play with shops keep many out of general aviation, and also drive many very good and conscientious people out.
kinda glad to see someone else noticed this.
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Sheesh Dago, if you have extra money laying around to give people overcharging for parts and service or who argue and try to hide stuff when asked for detailed accounting in the bill, why not just send ME some of that money. I promise I'll work hard, I promise :)
:airplane:
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Sheesh Dago, if you have extra money laying around to give people overcharging for parts and service or who argue and try to hide stuff when asked for detailed accounting in the bill, why not just send ME some of that money. I promise I'll work hard, I promise :)
:airplane:
Eagl, I have a ton of respect for you and the fact that you are serving our country, but get on the receiving end of cheap tulips who want to accuse you of overcharging every time you do a job, who want to challenge every dime on a bill, and you will understand the frustration. Doing good work on something as critical as an aircraft engine, on a single engine airplane isn't enough. You're going to end up defending your billing. If there is all this overcharging going on, how come there aren't any rich A&Ps, but there are a lot of them leaving aviation?
There are two sides to every story, stop seeing just the pilots side.
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Eagl, I have a ton of respect for you and the fact that you are serving our country, but get on the receiving end of cheap tulips who want to accuse you of overcharging every time you do a job, who want to challenge every dime on a bill, and you will understand the frustration. Doing good work on something as critical as an aircraft engine, on a single engine airplane isn't enough. You're going to end up defending your billing. If there is all this overcharging going on, how come there aren't any rich A&Ps, but there are a lot of them leaving aviation?
There are two sides to every story, stop seeing just the pilots side.
i had a customer try to nickel and dime me on a bill a few years ago. so i started totaling the time i spent on the phone tracking down his parts. i pulled out the phone bill, and started totaling all the calls i made for his car. he asked me what i was doing. i told him, that it was ok, i was just going to do like lawyers do, and charge for the extras that we never charge for.
he told me to stop, then laughed his bellybutton off, and handed me his credit card.
turns out he just went through a divorce, and understood when i put it that way. he turned into one of my best customers. :D
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There is a line that was crossed in the ammount of extra charges that Wolf was not happy with, that's the customer's side of it. There was a limit to how little the vendor wanted to make on profit, thats the other side. All that happened is those two numbers conflicted.
To say that makes wolf a 'cheapass' is hardly fair. Not everyone has sold a company and owns millions of dollars. Oh, and beside that point, alot of people who do own millions of dollars only get there by counting every penny. Not my style of living but I really cannot agree that a customer should pay whatever the bill is everytime without question. :headscratch:
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There is a line that was crossed in the ammount of extra charges that Wolf was not happy with, that's the customer's side of it. There was a limit to how little the vendor wanted to make on profit, thats the other side. All that happened is those two numbers conflicted.
To say that makes wolf a 'cheapass' is hardly fair. Not everyone has sold a company and owns millions of dollars. Oh, and beside that point, alot of people who do own millions of dollars only get there by counting every penny. Not my style of living but I really cannot agree that a customer should pay whatever the bill is everytime without question. :headscratch:
It's not my intention to call him cheap, but after a time, you just start lumping them all together. I knew a guy who owned a 421, it was his toy, and he didn't question bills, wanted everything done right, and would buy the lines guys lunch whenever he came to the airport. I was working my way through college when I met him, and I can tell you, a guy like that is few and far between in aviation. He could afford an airplane, and could and would pay the maintenance bills. So many owners seem to be able to afford an airplane, but act like you are taking bread from his kids mouths when you want to be paid for services requested. God forbid you exceed the estimate because a couple screws on a panel were stripped, and you had to drill them out, then had to spend some time finding a part he needed, let his plane sit in your shop, taking up some of the limited space while you waited two days for the part to arrive. Never mind the time spent troubleshooting, or doing a runup to check function and leaks. You JUST know changing a cylinder is only a two hour job. Of course you didn't struggle to get off a stuck exhaust nut from the hardest to reach pipe at an odd angle upside down, he did. Don't dare let that change the estimated price, even though you didn't dare account for things like that in your estimate or you would have been higher than Joes Aircraft Repair and Lawn Service across the field.
Anyone who thinks they should weigh in on this subject, I suggest you go out to the local field, go the the nearest aircraft maintenance shop, ask for the service manager, and ask them if they ever have customers who want to argue the bill and get work done for nothing. But be prepared to spend a lot of time and you better buy the guy a soft drink or coffee, he might need it to get his blood pressure back to normal when he is done answering the question. Also, ask if any have tried to blackmail him by threatening to bad mouth his shop.
I don't agree with over billing to be sure. And as a customer, you have a right to ask and know about the charges. Just don't pretend to be an expert and know exactly what everything should cost. Understand there are always going to be variances and unexpected issues that will effect that bill.
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There is a line that was crossed in the ammount of extra charges that Wolf was not happy with, that's the customer's side of it. There was a limit to how little the vendor wanted to make on profit, thats the other side. All that happened is those two numbers conflicted.
To say that makes wolf a 'cheapass' is hardly fair. Not everyone has sold a company and owns millions of dollars. Oh, and beside that point, alot of people who do own millions of dollars only get there by counting every penny. Not my style of living but I really cannot agree that a customer should pay whatever the bill is everytime without question. :headscratch:
i'm not calling anyone anything.
i know how i run my business. i check it out. i give you an estimate. you agree or not. if you agree, and approve the work, then i do the exact work on the estimate. if there's other stuff that comes up, i stop, and call ya.
what often happens, though, is that after the customer has agreed, he comes in, and tries to play games with me, hoping i'll back down, and lower the price.
i've been dealing with people trying that for about 10 years now. i see it comin before they get to do it to me.
i'll go back and re-read the original post, as i may have missed something. i also run an auto shop, not an aviation shop.
they are somewhat similar though, except it's much more expensive to be legally allowed to do major maintenance on aircraft. when i rebuild an engine, i'm the only one that has to look it over or approve it. i know that it's somewhat different in aviation.
in all things such as this, it's hard to say right or wrong. if he was given an estimate, and the final bill was within 10% or so of that estimate, then there really shouldn't be a problem....assuming the go-ahead was given for the work.
now, if he was told $1,000, gave the ok on the work, and the final bill was that 1500, then there is a serious problem.
just my opinions, and observations, from running an auto shop.....
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If I'm expecting a job to cost X amount of money and upon receipt of the bill I see I'm charged X plus 30% I'm going to be curious, disappointed and quite possibly angry at the situation. If there is going to be a significant cost overrun I'm going to expect to be kept in the loop so I can continue to budget accordingly as well as approve the additional expense.
We generally give our mechanic fair leeway to do as he sees fit when it comes to billing and he does an exceptional job shopping around. That said when viewed from the perspective of airplane owner who likes to be involved with their investment the status of whatever is going on is updated daily and potential cost/time overruns are brought to light as quickly as possible for the time and money budgeting reasons I mentioned.
To be handed a bill that has 30% tacked onto the estimate wouldn't be well received by me either. Wolfs was invoice plus 50% was it not? That's unacceptable.
Now if anyone can make a Lear 45 windshield that won't delaminate after 13 months please do so because Bombardier's vendors can't. They're $50,000 each and our airplane has had 12 different windshields installed on it since it was new. How's that for a cost overrun?
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Dago, Cap, I'm too ignorant on the subject to argue it accurately, taken your points onboard. Looking at the big picture you are right. In this individual case my opinon sides with wolfala's descision that the price was too much higher than normal to let go and that's all i agree with.
Golfer, 50k a windshield, are you in the right business? :O
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Dago, Cap, I'm too ignorant on the subject to argue it accurately, taken your points onboard. Looking at the big picture you are right. In this individual case my opinon sides with wolfala's descision that the price was too much higher than normal to let go and that's all i agree with.
Golfer, 50k a windshield, are you in the right business? :O
understood.........i understand yours and his opinions too.
it's pretty cool that this thread has stayed civil too. no name calling or anything like they often degrade into. :aok
50k for a windscreen? all i can say to that is :O :O
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$50,000 each. We have two and the airplane is wearing either 11 & 12 or 12 & 13. I've lost count. I think we're on revision 7 of the windshield which is a single piece of molded plastic with a constant curve. The two we put on in the 18 months or so are thicker than any of the previous ones and actually required modification to the airframe to make them fit. So far, so good. :pray
$11,000-$13,000 batteries, anyone? :bolt:
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$50,000 each. We have two and the airplane is wearing either 11 & 12 or 12 & 13. I've lost count. I think we're on revision 7 of the windshield which is a single piece of molded plastic with a constant curve. The two we put on in the 18 months or so are thicker than any of the previous ones and actually required modification to the airframe to make them fit. So far, so good. :pray
$11,000-$13,000 batteries, anyone? :bolt:
what is it that causes them to do this? have you guys been able to determine? like is it just the force put on it from flight, or flexing of the airframe?
i own a dodge caravan, dodge dakota, geo prism, ford taurus, ford fairmont, and a camaro(race car) and they don't total that cost for batteries............
yikes!!
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the last car i owned was not worth 1/10 of a lear battery :furious
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They've just been delaminating. No airframe flex AFAIK but it seems they've just been too thin to be reliable the way they are designed. Like I said they are big single pane windshields with constant curves. What stinks is we can't use the old ones for anything. If they were flat or had any flat portions we could at least make desks or tables out of the damn things.
So far so good on what I think is revision 7. They're thicker and a slightly different color tint than the old ones that required the frame to be cut to allow the latest version to fit. Previously they would start to go bad just outside of warranty which was only 1 year. 13-14 months after installation they'd start to go...doh! :huh
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They've just been delaminating. No airframe flex AFAIK but it seems they've just been too thin to be reliable the way they are designed. Like I said they are big single pane windshields with constant curves. What stinks is we can't use the old ones for anything. If they were flat or had any flat portions we could at least make desks or tables out of the damn things.
So far so good on what I think is revision 7. They're thicker and a slightly different color tint than the old ones that required the frame to be cut to allow the latest version to fit. Previously they would start to go bad just outside of warranty which was only 1 year. 13-14 months after installation they'd start to go...doh! :huh
depending on the angles, what about adding legs, and plunk a cushion on it, and make a chair? :D
and i think having to keep replacing them as you've mentioned, i'd be so far beyond pissed..........
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There are two sides to every story, stop seeing just the pilots side.
Dago,
Respectfully, it's not just a matter of perspective.
The bill itself is in question, not just where the service or parts prices were higher than expected. When there is a clearly unexpected or outrageous markup, extra work, or anything else that makes a repair bill significantly over a quote or what the customer was led to expect, then at the very least the service provider owes the customer a detailed bill. But the shop refused.
And that's the whole point - the bill was higher than expected and the shop belligerently refused to detail the expenses. That's utter BS, and you know it. It's not a matter of a customer being cheap, it's a matter of a shop trying to hide overcharging for a fairly standard service.
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If I'm expecting a job to cost X amount of money and upon receipt of the bill I see I'm charged X plus 30% I'm going to be curious, disappointed and quite possibly angry at the situation. If there is going to be a significant cost overrun I'm going to expect to be kept in the loop so I can continue to budget accordingly as well as approve the additional expense.
Exactly.
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Now if anyone can make a Lear 45 windshield that won't delaminate after 13 months please do so because Bombardier's vendors can't. They're $50,000 each and our airplane has had 12 different windshields installed on it since it was new. How's that for a cost overrun?
Have you considered operator error? Are the pilots leaving on windshield heat during ground ops? Not joking, some guys just don't read the manual carefully enough or they mis-remember something, or they transfer habits from one plane to another, and it turns out to be horribly dangerous or damaging to the plane.
We're fighting these issues right now with our transition from the T-37 to the T-6... The T-6 can be badly damaged in a dozen ways if we operate it like we did the tweet. We're very careful about how we do things, but even minor changes in the software we use to track our flying hours has led to pilots incorrectly logging their flying hours and training events. So imagine the issues you can have when switching from one plane to another and then diving right into student training. As a supervisor it's my job to keep an eye out for instructors who might have learned something incorrectly during the instructor training or aircraft transition course, but I'm fairly new in the T-6 myself so I have to be doubly careful not to do anything that will break the plane.
Like leaving windshield heat on during ground ops, and then swear up and down that I have no idea why the windshields delaminate before expected service life expires :)
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It's a fleet wide issue and we're by no means the only operator with the same track record. The windshields themselves are electrically heated and are supposed to be on all the time the engines are running IAW the manufacturers checklist. In fact the only AC power sources the airplane has are two alternators, one on each engine, specifically for the on-side windshield power. They cannot transfer the load to the off side alternator and are dedicated to the on-side window. Brilliant engineering there. :headscratch: There's no way to mess it up and they have built in protection if they get too hot which will shut them off while alerting the pilot with a CAS message.
It's not like a Citation where you have a defog fan as well as bleed air which can melt the acrylic windshield if left on too long or at too high a power setting. It's really pretty well idiot proof and like I mentioned I can go look at 10 45's and I'll find at least two windshields with some delamination forming. When visiting one operator which happened to have 3 in their hangar and another transient fractional 45 there were 3 windsheilds on those 4 airplanes which had some delam going on. Sweeeeeeeeet... :cry
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Hmmm.
I think if it was my plane, I might have one acft chosen as a test article, and move the windshield anti-ice into the before takeoff checklist, not the before taxi checklist. And turn it off after landing, not before engine shutdown. And of course if environmental conditions were conducive to windshield fogging or icing, have the pilots strictly comply with the manufacturer's guidance. But on clear/dry days with no reason for the windshield to fog or ice up, delay turning it on for a bit.
But I'm not running a commercial operation either, so you guys are probably screwed :) We have some similarly silly things we do with the T-6, but since it's a fairly "new" plane and the contract was poorly written (we don't even have the rights to know the serial numbers of a defective batch of oil pump bearings! WTF!) we're not allowed to write our own ops or maintenance procedures yet. The plane is fragile and has a bunch of dumb design features, but the revision process is backlogged and they're still working through maintenance and manufacturing change proposals from several years ago.
We have a few bare wire bundles that chafe through, because they're exposed to the environment (flapping in the wind, some of them) and they sit up against the edge of a piece of sheet metal! Of course a bare wire sitting against a sheet metal edge and out in the windstream will chafe through. But the change process is so backlogged, it might be a decade or longer before hawker-beech officially authorizes wrapping that wire bundle. So the "fix" is to wait until the wire inevitably wears through, hope someone catches it before it shorts out, and then wrap it with electrical tape and use zip-ties to keep the tape from unravelling after being exposed to 316 kts of wind, 120 deg heat, and -50 deg cold at up to 34,000 ft.
And that's just one thing we know about and can't change. The T-6 is one big flying kludge from spinner to tailcone, and it takes literally years to get even simple changes approved. Other examples... The tires suck. Even filling them with nitrogen, it's not uncommon for them to lose more than half their air pressure over a 2 day weekend. We've had guys stranded off-station because their tires went flat between Friday and Sunday, and the FBO was out of nitrogen on Sunday or the guy who knew how to use the nitrogen filler was at church or whatever. Crappy tires, they blow all the time too, but nothing has been done about it in the 7 or so years we've been flying the T-6.
Awesome. No wonder why we can't manage to buy a replacement tanker or a new fighter.
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After the first two years of turning the WS heats on after takeoff they were moved to a line-up item. It still happened and we still operate to this day with them as a line-up item on our handy dandy FAA approved stamped normal procedures checklist. You're 5 years behind our troubleshooting ;)
Knock on wood we're over a year on one and at 11 months on the other now with no new signs of delamination. If it happens in the next couple months I'm blaming the bad juju on this thread and sending Wolfala the bill for 50% more than the cost of the windshield... :neener:
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After the first two years of turning the WS heats on after takeoff they were moved to a line-up item. It still happened and we still operate to this day with them as a line-up item on our handy dandy FAA approved stamped normal procedures checklist. You're 5 years behind our troubleshooting ;)
Knock on wood we're over a year on one and at 11 months on the other now with no new signs of delamination. If it happens in the next couple months I'm blaming the bad juju on this thread and sending Wolfala the bill for 50% more than the cost of the windshield... :neener:
:headscratch: