Crazy A&P invoice - need thoughts

[Wolfala]

http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/6862.1AD03.PDF
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/7357.Inv_5F00_3674.pdf]

http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/6862.1AD03.PDF
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/7357.Inv_5F00_3674.pdf


I wanted to run this by you guys before I did something. I had 2 sticky valves in a Continental IO-360ES - I sent it in for R&R recently. The labor to R&R #1 and #5 was 11.5 hours @ $90 - assuming that is physically removing and reinstalling, seems a bit on the high side from previous experience - esp when I was there most of the time. A line item on the next line was Cylinder repair $1,515. I thought to myself, wait a sec - even if all you did was drop the valve, ream the guide - or at very worst replace the guide and valve - your parts count isn't breaking $550. Where does the other $1000 go away to? It sure as heck isn't labor.

Figured 2 exhaust valves:  $230 each = $460
2 exhaust valve guides: $20 each = $40
2 Gasket sets: $10 each = $20
8 Key valve springs?: $.27 each = $2.00
4 Roto cap: $23.00 each = $90
8 Tab lock washers: $.50 cents each = $2.00
3 Outter Spring 625958:  $6.00 each = $18.00
4 Inner spring 625957:  $2.50 each = $10.00
1 Stud: $7.00 each = $7.00 each

When the engine was over temped back in Jan 08 - the inspection was flat rated at $250 and parts were whatever they were. But all those valves were trashed - so you had new guides, keys, springs, gaskets, rings, + rehoning. There wasn't any of that here - certainly no rehoning. And that bill back then was $1800 with everything overhauled. This was an IRAN on the exhaust valve guide only for that sticky situation. So, WTF?

The other things on the list - muffler, voltage regulator, I don't have any issue with, though they could knock .5 off on labor for the right side exhaust since it was coming off anyway. Could you guys give this a once over? It just doesn't smell right from all the work we did on the engine from the last 6 cylinders last year.

An overhauled/exchange jug is typically $600 to $800 depending on where you go ($600 Gibson, $800 RAM). A simple re-valve should not exceed $300-$350 per cylinder. Maybe $400 at the outside.

[eagl]

I don't have any experience with aircraft engine repair, but I do know that if you're ever not happy with an invoice, request a more detailed breakout.  If the shop quibbles about it, let them know that your next stop will be the local FAA office, followed by taking the engine to another shop to determine what work was done and what parts are new, ensuring all parts are certified, etc, followed by a call to your lawyer to recover teardown/inspection costs from the shop that gave you such a questionable invoice to begin with.

For that matter, if they give you a hard time, make them show you THEIR invoices for the parts they put in your engine, and let them know you'll be going to the part manufacturer for lot numbers in case the engine fails early.  Again, if they argue, let them know the next folks they'll be talking to are the FAA and your lawyer.

The last time I discussed acft maintenance with my civilian flt instructor, he said that the FAA doesn't like A&Ps who cut corners or do shady repair work.  If they gave you a bill that was unexpectedly high, you need to demand a full accounting of all repairs including a very detailed breakdown of parts and labor.  Hopefully he won't hold your motor hostage for payment but if he won't tell you what he did to it, then do you really want to hang it back on the plane?

[eagl]

I almost forgot...  Hopefully you have a copy of the statement of work you agreed on when you gave the motor to the shop...  That's your contract and if he deviated from it without your permission then he eats the cost.

[eagl]

Hmm...

1.3 hrs to replace a voltage regulator?  Did he have to build it from scratch or just unbolt the sucker and bolt on a new one?  The install new regulator labor was almost as much as R&R both mufflers.  Muffler parts look pretty darn expensive too...  You've got $2500+ in parts overall...  Get a full list of what went in there.

[Wolfala]

Hmm...

1.3 hrs to replace a voltage regulator?  Did he have to build it from scratch or just unbolt the sucker and bolt on a new one?  The install new regulator labor was almost as much as R&R both mufflers.  Muffler parts look pretty darn expensive too...  You've got $2500+ in parts overall...  Get a full list of what went in there.

The VR is housed inside a Master Control Unit - it doesn't sit outside flapping in the breeze, so you gotta break open a Black Box to get at it. That part I am not debating and won't bust their balls on. The muffler was 2 separate things, the flame tube on both were gone - and there are 2 different mufflers, 1 with a heat muff for bypass heating for the cabin and the other for just straight exhaust. Those were $250 and $400 something respectively. I can bust their balls for 1.0 install since they removed the right side anyway to get the cylinders off.

But the cylinders are totally out of line with reality. There isn't any 10% markup on the planet that would come up with those numbers for anything less then overhauling 3 cylinders, let alone just IRAN'n 2 exhaust valve guides.

[Strip]

Get a breakdown, it could be a simple math error somewhere, it wouldn't be hard to hit a four instead of a one when multiplying out markups.

When I was a service writer I did that a couple of times, thankfully due diligence kept the mistake from making it to the customer. 

[CAP1]

i'm not familiar with aircraft work. i am familiar with automotive though.

when you pay his charges(besides parts), you're paying not only for his time right then and there, but for all of his training, experience, equipment, lisences, permits, insurance, employees, and other things.


 now, on the other hand, the last i checked, at freeflight aviation....the club i fly with, labor was only in the 50-70 range.

[Die Hard]

when you pay his charges(besides parts), you're paying not only for his time right then and there, but for all of his training, experience, equipment, lisences, permits, insurance, employees, and other things.

Those costs should be factored in the price per hour. They should not write additional hours to cover those costs. That's illegal.

[Wolfala]

Guys,

I think what it comes down to is this - unless those cylinders were made of unobtanium, I have prior invoices for fully overhauled cylinders for a fraction of what they charged from large shops i've delt with. Powermaster Engines in Tulsa, Air West in San Carlos CA, Tims Aircraft in Long Beach - none of that work was to exceed $300 per jug. I'll get a detailed breakdown and threaten to ruin their reputation within the Cirrus community since they are a service center. That'll get their attention really quick.

[Stoney]

http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/6862.1AD03.PDF
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/7357.Inv_5F00_3674.pdf]

http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/6862.1AD03.PDF
http://www.cirruspilots.org/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/45/7357.Inv_5F00_3674.pdf


I wanted to run this by you guys before I did something. I had 2 sticky valves in a Continental IO-360ES - I sent it in for R&R recently. The labor to R&R #1 and #5 was 11.5 hours @ $90 - assuming that is physically removing and reinstalling, seems a bit on the high side from previous experience - esp when I was there most of the time. A line item on the next line was Cylinder repair $1,515. I thought to myself, wait a sec - even if all you did was drop the valve, ream the guide - or at very worst replace the guide and valve - your parts count isn't breaking $550. Where does the other $1000 go away to? It sure as heck isn't labor.

Figured 2 exhaust valves:  $230 each = $460
2 exhaust valve guides: $20 each = $40
2 Gasket sets: $10 each = $20
8 Key valve springs?: $.27 each = $2.00
4 Roto cap: $23.00 each = $90
8 Tab lock washers: $.50 cents each = $2.00
3 Outter Spring 625958:  $6.00 each = $18.00
4 Inner spring 625957:  $2.50 each = $10.00
1 Stud: $7.00 each = $7.00 each

When the engine was over temped back in Jan 08 - the inspection was flat rated at $250 and parts were whatever they were. But all those valves were trashed - so you had new guides, keys, springs, gaskets, rings, + rehoning. There wasn't any of that here - certainly no rehoning. And that bill back then was $1800 with everything overhauled. This was an IRAN on the exhaust valve guide only for that sticky situation. So, WTF?

The other things on the list - muffler, voltage regulator, I don't have any issue with, though they could knock .5 off on labor for the right side exhaust since it was coming off anyway. Could you guys give this a once over? It just doesn't smell right from all the work we did on the engine from the last 6 cylinders last year.

An overhauled/exchange jug is typically $600 to $800 depending on where you go ($600 Gibson, $800 RAM). A simple re-valve should not exceed $300-$350 per cylinder. Maybe $400 at the outside.

I agree that the total cost seems high.  11.5 hours of labor to do the work represented by the parts list seems too much.  You're not paying him to learn how to remove and reinstall components, nor how to do the repair work.  You could have bought brand new cylinder assemblies to replace both jugs for about another $1000.  The only thing I can think of is that he's marking up the repair parts.  I had O-320 cylinders completely overhauled with new valves, et al, for less than $1000 per jug.  I'd be curious as to whether or not a) they had to do considerably more machine work than normal or b) he's errantly assessing the doctor/lawyer tax, since you're got a Cirrus.  $90/hr shop rate seems extremely high.  In SoCal 5 years ago, $60/hr was average.

[Die Hard]

Let us know how it goes Wolfala.

[CAP1]

Those costs should be factored in the price per hour. They should not write additional hours to cover those costs. That's illegal.

THAT's what i was saying...that they're factored into the hourly rate.


he also may have been charging "book" regardless of the actual time it took him. i know a lot of shops that do that. it's legal too....not right in my mind, but legal.

[Wolfala]

I agree that the total cost seems high.  11.5 hours of labor to do the work represented by the parts list seems too much.  You're not paying him to learn how to remove and reinstall components, nor how to do the repair work.  You could have bought brand new cylinder assemblies to replace both jugs for about another $1000.  The only thing I can think of is that he's marking up the repair parts.  I had O-320 cylinders completely overhauled with new valves, et al, for less than $1000 per jug.  I'd be curious as to whether or not a) they had to do considerably more machine work than normal or b) he's errantly assessing the doctor/lawyer tax, since you're got a Cirrus.  $90/hr shop rate seems extremely high.  In SoCal 5 years ago, $60/hr was average.

OK so I called the shop that did the work to fax me the invoice they submitted over. The breakdown was as follows:

Inspection:  $140 per jug x 2:  $280
Exhaust valves: $250 x 2:  $500
Roto Coils:  $32 x 4:  $130
Key:  $3.00
Exhaust guides:  $10 x 2:  $20
Gasket:  2 x $9:  $18
Spring:  4 x $3.5:  $14
Spring:  3 x $7:  $21
Stud:  1:  $10
Tab locks:  8 x $1:  $8

$1015 ish

Hrm...batter up?
 

[CAP1]

http://www.aeroinstock.com/products/346--thru-360-Series/5843/0/product_cat/index.html

[Stoney]

OK so I called the shop that did the work to fax me the invoice they submitted over. The breakdown was as follows:

Inspection:  $140 per jug x 2:  $280
Exhaust valves: $250 x 2:  $500
Roto Coils:  $32 x 4:  $130
Key:  $3.00
Exhaust guides:  $10 x 2:  $20
Gasket:  2 x $9:  $18
Spring:  4 x $3.5:  $14
Spring:  3 x $7:  $21
Stud:  1:  $10
Tab locks:  8 x $1:  $8

$1015 ish

Hrm...batter up?
 

Well, he should have only charged the $1015 then, and then whatever labor it took for him to remove and install.  I thought he did the work himself, so that makes the 11.5 hours of labor even worse.  I've seen efficient mechs pull a jug in about 15 minutes, if all the cowling is off, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, and say 1 hour per jug on and off.  A good, organized shop should have standard rates for these types of tasks, at least for the labor required.  Anyway, I think you got bit by the "Certified Cirrus Service Center" bug.  I don't know what it costs those guys to get that certification, but there's a hefty mark up on your invoice, for sure.