Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: SPKmes on November 01, 2009, 03:11:07 PM
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I currently have a 128 9600gt ati radeon...this runs things ok with high res and detail on..I don't have all the goods on though due to problems with frames in furballs over land. My question is (yes a PC upgrade is needed but financially not going to happen) would upping to a 256 or higher of the same card have much of an impact?? also is there perhaps another type that would give me that little bit extra to run full graphics full time? My system is AGP
I am quite happy with what I have for now but would like to run it with full as it is so pretty hahaha
Currently with graphics off I average 70 frames...graphics on 30ish..water and reflections 25 ish but I do take big frame drops during multi con engagements with the latter on
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Your card is more than likely an AGP card. I'll make this short. If you can live with your card right now, you should be saving up that 'video card upgrade money' for a new computer.
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Your card is more than likely an AGP card. I'll make this short. If you can live with your card right now, you should be saving up that 'video card upgrade money' for a new computer.
Yes this is an AGP card....
Stick with what I have then...sweet Cheers
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That's an option of course but, if you have a little money set aside and don't want to go through a full system upgrade right now (read as "instant gratification") there are some really good ATI chipset options available in the AGP slot type...Radeon 4670 in the 1GB DDR3 configuration can be had for $125 or less.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161284 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161284)
What's the rest of the hardware information on your system?
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$125 can go a long way to buying a new computer. AGP is getting quite dated.
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$125 can go a long way to buying a new computer. AGP is getting quite dated.
True, but then so is my $160 bowling ball after only 10 months...PCI Express lasted 12 months (if that)...PCIE-x16 went almost 12 months...for some reason there is a bigger selection of AGP remaining than for PCI-E or x16. We should not equated "dated" with "useless".
If I didn't have the money to invest in a new gaming system, $125 graphics card investment on my P4 system would be a good deal since it is still powerful enough to run Win7.
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The performance difference in bowling balls is no where near the advancement in graphics cards. PCI-Express has 3 common configuraitons.
PCI-E 1X - special applications, network cards, sound cards
PCI-E 4X - usually controller cards for SCSI etc
PCI-E 16X (1.0 and 2.0) - backwards compatible, video cards use this slot. Similar to AGP 1x-8x differences
As AGP cards uncommon and less manufacturers carry them, their prices go up. A PCI-E version of a ATI 4670 1GB runs $69.99 while a AGP version runs $109.99. If he can live with that system for a bit, why spend $110-$125 on a video card he won't be able to use in a new build? AGP cards are limited in the performance because of the bandwidth limitations.
Tomshardware.com did an article a few months back talking about using (new) high end AGP cards in older systems. IIRC they were talking about the ATI 3850 AGP which was the best one available on the market back in early spring. To sum up the article, you're running into performance bottlenecks with the CPU more so than the GPU. The newer architechure cards weren't being fully utilized by these older CPU's, for which the VAST majority were true single cores (HT aside). So the performance gains were mute.
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I have been reading these posts and thank you guys for your input....I must tell you that I am 8-12 mths from realistically purchasing or building a new system. This time frame is totally dependant on costs for educating my dependants, which is ever changing....I come last when it comes to them...Price wise...$125 is just under 1/10 of the cost of a new system here (NZ)... this is based on a build Tildeath did for ABDC.....Although I will go new at a later stage I was wanting to find the benefits of upgrading my card if any... on average all the AGP cards here are between $90 and $150....you do get your oddly over the top priced ones also..
As I had said. I can live with the graphics off... but I do like the candy too... was just looking for thoughts from people like yourselves who have a greater knowledge of these things than I do.
once again thank you.
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PCI Express lasted 12 months (if that)...PCIE-x16 went almost 12 months...for some reason there is a bigger selection of AGP remaining than for PCI-E or x16. We should not equated "dated" with "useless".
Not in the least bit true. PCI-E x16 1.0 and 2.0 are cross compatible (either type card can be used in either type slot). There are FAR more PCI-E x16 flavor cards available than AGP, which is a dated technology.
PCI-E 16X (1.0 and 2.0) - backwards compatible, video cards use this slot. Similar to AGP 1x-8x differences
There's one major difference in that each speed AGP card is keyed differently from it's predicessor so you have to use the right speed card for the slot although there was a "universal" keyed version that worked across at least a few of the differing slot types.
Tongs, I've been a bit financially strapped for several years now and am in the position where I need to get every bit of life I can out of everything I own, computers included. You may see a gain from a better card even though it's AGP but we'd really need to know what you have for a CPU, RAM and power supply to know if it would be worthwhile. You might just create a bottleneck or may have to upgrade in other areas as well to get better performance. Once you know what the total investment is going to be then you can decide if it's worth it to gain a year or two.
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I now have 1 stick of 1 gb ram and 1 of 500mb installed. I also have SP3. I have a sound blaster card
With those additions this is what I have.
I can if needed redo my Dx and post when I get home later.
Time of this report: 9/5/2008, 15:14:55
Machine name: --
Operating System: Windows XP Home Edition (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 2 (2600.xpsp_sp2_gdr.070227-2254)
Language: English (Regional Setting: English)
System Manufacturer: AWARD_
System Model: AWRDACPI
BIOS: Phoenix - AwardBIOS v6.00PG
Processor: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.00GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 1024MB RAM
Page File: 412MB used, 1232MB available
Windows Dir: C:\WINDOWS
DirectX Version: DirectX 9.0c (4.09.0000.0904)
DX Setup Parameters: Not found
DxDiag Version: 5.03.2600.2180 32bit Unicode
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Well, that's a hyperthreading processor. If your motherboard is a dual channel unit, those memory sticks aren't going to be performing like they should...you want 2 matched sticks. You're also going to need to cut down on the background processes running (412MB paging file is too big). If you have Norton, McAffee, Trend Micro, or other similar anti-virus programs, get rid of it and use one of the anti-virus programs that has a lot less overhead on the background processes.
Baldy, the only reason there are so many PCI-E x16 cards available is because it's the latest tech...just like everything else, nothing more. AGP ran its course and is obviously old tech, but for the OP here, the best AGP card available is not a completely out of the question upgrade, considering a new system that will last more than a year will cost $700+. The video card in question here is a signficant upgrade from his current model and at a price he can afford immediately. With some further assistance from the knowledge base here, I'm betting he would be good to go for more than another year with the Radeon 4670. The fact that a PCI-E model is half the cost doesn't help him in any way since it would mean putting together another computer.
Easy for people to talk about "saving money" when you have some to save but there are more people living paycheck to paycheck with a family to care for than there are people who have spare money to save. No offense here fellas but, put yourselves in the shoes of the OP's here once in a while...all the "Toms Hardware" info and "a new system would be better" does not address the issue at hand if the OP says they cannot afford the new systems that some have the luxury of buying.
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Ok so I need to get another 1Gb stick I didn't realize this could be a problem.... the processes issue has been seen to....I run avg (although I am not sure this totally shuts down) and spybot but cut these out and other processes with Game booster before getting online AH.....
I get down to about 26 processes (I haven't actually checked since Tac played around with it and shut down a lot of things that started on start up) I will check this out tonight and see if perhaps this has changed. I will run a another DX tonight, as much can change in the year of life on a PC I'd say.
Oh yes I forgot to say my power unit is small...from memory I believe it is 400w
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Oh yes I forgot to say my power unit is small...from memory I believe it is 400w
That's the minimum recommended for that card...more is always better though.
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When its comes to watts and a video card, the wattage rating is basically a rough gauge on what kind of power you need. The video card manufacturer will have it listed hown many amps you need on your 12V+ rail to power the card. Different PSU manufacturers put different amps on their rails and these numbers are always fudged. You'll have it say 400W but when you add up the amps across all the rails, you may find its only 350W or less.
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It looks to me like the CPU will handle the video card without creating a bottleneck. It also appears on the surface that the PSU will handle it too. If that's the case I'd go ahead and get the video card and another 1Gb stick of the same RAM.
I'd also get rid of any uneeded data and unused applications then do a disc clean-up and defrag. Turn off any auto-updaters you have running and start menu items that you don't need to automatically start then go to blackviper.com to see what services you can turn off.
You should see a nice little performance boost.
Baldy, the only reason there are so many PCI-E x16 cards available is because it's the latest tech...just like everything else, nothing more.
I was simply responding to this comment which you now seem to retract:
...for some reason there is a bigger selection of AGP remaining than for PCI-E or x16.
Which is it?
AGP ran its course and is obviously old tech, but for the OP here, the best AGP card available is not a completely out of the question upgrade, considering a new system that will last more than a year will cost $700+. The video card in question here is a signficant upgrade from his current model and at a price he can afford immediately. With some further assistance from the knowledge base here, I'm betting he would be good to go for more than another year with the Radeon 4670. The fact that a PCI-E model is half the cost doesn't help him in any way since it would mean putting together another computer.
Easy for people to talk about "saving money" when you have some to save but there are more people living paycheck to paycheck with a family to care for than there are people who have spare money to save. No offense here fellas but, put yourselves in the shoes of the OP's here once in a while...all the "Toms Hardware" info and "a new system would be better" does not address the issue at hand if the OP says they cannot afford the new systems that some have the luxury of buying.
You evidently totally misinterpreted what I said:
Tongs, I've been a bit financially strapped for several years now and am in the position where I need to get every bit of life I can out of everything I own, computers included. You may see a gain from a better card even though it's AGP but we'd really need to know what you have for a CPU, RAM and power supply to know if it would be worthwhile. You might just create a bottleneck or may have to upgrade in other areas as well to get better performance. Once you know what the total investment is going to be then you can decide if it's worth it to gain a year or two.
I was advocating getting the AGP card if it made sense in the context of the rest of his system.
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Thanks for pointing that out Baldy...but I didn't retract anything...from what I read of your assertions you were looking at the backward compatibility of PCI-E x16 2.0 with PCI-E x16...and I was looking at each stage of PCI-E as independent of each other as well as the short life span of each stage of the PCI-E tech versus the continuing market for AGP even after 4 years of being "outdated".
Using Newegg as an example, you will find a total of 44 AGP video cards available...for PCI-E x1 there are only 3...and PCI-E x16 there are 30.
For the record I didn't direct the "saving money" remarks specifically to you alone.
SPKmes, it's a tough choice man...deal with what you have now and hope you can come up with enough to buy a new system before you get to the point where the current system irritates you so much you quit playing...or toss what cash you know you can afford right now into that system to hopefully get you through another year or so.
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Using Newegg as an example, you will find a total of 44 AGP video cards available...for PCI-E x1 there are only 3...and PCI-E x16 there are 30.
The total number of PCIE x16 cards on newegg, whether of the 1.0 or 2.0 variety which are cross compatible, is 380!
Stating that there are more AGP cards available than PCIE x16 cards, which is exactly what you said, is simply wrong and omitting the vast majority of x16 cards to try to prove your point is ludicrous.
Why would you purposefully want to lead people astray?
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Geez Baldy....making the insinuation that PCI-Ex16 and PCIE-x16 2.0 are one and the same due to backward compatibility is more ludicrous than stating factually that they are different technologies. Putting a PCI-Ex16 video card in a PCI-Ex16 2.0 slot is not going to make that card work any better...nor will putting a PCI-Ex16 2.0 video card in a PCI-Ex16 slot. They are each specific stages in the PCI Express technology tree, just like every other progression of a technology tree...USB 1.0 and 2.0...IEEE 1394 400/800/S800T...etc...
Stop insinuating that just because it fits that it works the same...because it doesn't.
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Geez Baldy....making the insinuation that PCI-Ex16 and PCIE-x16 2.0 are one and the same due to backward compatibility is more ludicrous than stating factually that they are different technologies. Putting a PCI-Ex16 video card in a PCI-Ex16 2.0 slot is not going to make that card work any better...nor will putting a PCI-Ex16 2.0 video card in a PCI-Ex16 slot. They are each specific stages in the PCI Express technology tree, just like every other progression of a technology tree...USB 1.0 and 2.0...IEEE 1394 400/800/S800T...etc...
Stop insinuating that just because it fits that it works the same...because it doesn't.
They actually work exactly the same using the exact same technology with the only difference being in the memory BUS bandwidth, which is twice as much in the 2.0 varieties. When the varieties are mixed, they default to the lower bandwidth.
Lets take some real-world examples:
Person A has a motherboard that supports AGP 2x/4x. This poor soul cannot buy a new video card and has to scrounge up a used one on ebay.
Person B has a motherboard that supports AGP 4x/8x. They can still buy a realtively modern card new, but as soon as they upgrade their motherboard that card will be useless as it won't fit into the current PCIe x16 type slots. They are also locked out of 90% of the available cards on the market based on the numbers of each type available on newegg.
Person C has a motherboard with a PCIe x16 slot. They can choose to buy either a PCIe x16 or PCIe x16 2.0 video card. If they thought they'd upgrade their motherboard at some point they'd probably buy the 2.0 version. Even though they won't get the benefit of the extra memory bandwidth the card will work exactly the same as it's 1.0 counterpart and, when they upgrade their motherboard in the future they will "unlock" the additional performance of the card. This person also has the option of buying a 1.0 version PCIe x16 card and may want to do so based on price considerations. Even though they are buying the older memory interface, when and if they do upgrade to a motherboard that supports 2.0, they can move the card into that motherboard and it will perform exactly as it did in the older 1.0 slotted board.
Person D has a motherboard that supports PCIe x16 2.0. They are most likely to want to purchase a PCIe x16 2.0 video card but, if there's a big enough price differential and they're on a budget, they also have the option of buying a 1.0 version card. Even though it will only use half the abailable memory BUS it will work just the same as it would in a 1.0 slotted motherboard.
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In addition to what BaldEagl said, only the top of the line PCI-E cards are going to fully utlize PCI-E 2.0 bandwidth. If you buy say an Nvidia 8400 GS, which is a low end $30 card. It's rated to use 3.2Gb/sec on the PCI-Express bandwidth. It's rated for PCI-E 2.0, but it comes no where near the PCI-E 2.0 bandwidth max of 25.6 Gb/sec. PCI-E 1.0 at ~12.0Gb/sec is more than a enough for the 8400GS.
So in this case, the card even being rated for PCI-E 2.0 would perform the same under PCI-E 1.0 and a 2.0 motherboard.
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Hey Bald eagle this sis the card I have sli'd in my comp.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133246&cm_re=9800_gtx%2b-_-14-133-246-_-Product
and if you want to compare prices for different sites but with the same card check this out ... I used the 9800 gtx + as an example
http://www.nvidia.com/object/buy_now_results_ci.html?id=GF9800GTXPLUS
but it is tru get away from that agp it was good in its day but right now you want to go either pci or pci-e 2
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Ooh ooh I'm person C! :P
Bought a GTX 260 when still using a PCI-E x16 1.0 (due to a defect? it was said to run at x8 though), because I knew I would get a new Motherboard soon (for the AM3 support). Card works perfectly in both. Too bad I have the worst bottleneck right now, but not for long! :D
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Geez Baldy....making the insinuation that PCI-Ex16 and PCIE-x16 2.0 are one and the same due to backward compatibility is more ludicrous than stating factually that they are different technologies. Putting a PCI-Ex16 video card in a PCI-Ex16 2.0 slot is not going to make that card work any better...nor will putting a PCI-Ex16 2.0 video card in a PCI-Ex16 slot. They are each specific stages in the PCI Express technology tree, just like every other progression of a technology tree...USB 1.0 and 2.0...IEEE 1394 400/800/S800T...etc...
Stop insinuating that just because it fits that it works the same...because it doesn't.
Gyrene you have to realize the difference between bus specifications and the actual utilized bandwith. Current cards can't even saturate PCI-E x16 let alone require 2.0.
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Gyrene you have to realize the difference between bus specifications and the actual utilized bandwith. Current cards can't even saturate PCI-E x16 let alone require 2.0.
I do realize it Ripley...that was never in question.
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I do realize it Ripley...that was never in question.
Geez Baldy....making the insinuation that PCI-Ex16 and PCIE-x16 2.0 are one and the same due to backward compatibility is more ludicrous than stating factually that they are different technologies. Putting a PCI-Ex16 video card in a PCI-Ex16 2.0 slot is not going to make that card work any better...nor will putting a PCI-Ex16 2.0 video card in a PCI-Ex16 slot. They are each specific stages in the PCI Express technology tree, just like every other progression of a technology tree...USB 1.0 and 2.0...IEEE 1394 400/800/S800T...etc...
Stop insinuating that just because it fits that it works the same...because it doesn't.
Explain then please.
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Gyrene you have to realize the difference between bus specifications and the actual utilized bandwith. Current cards can't even saturate PCI-E x16 let alone require 2.0.
As one who is interested in the new Core i5/i7 and concerned over the built in PCI Express bus on the chip that limits 2 installed graphics cards to 8 bit lanes, I was curious how much of an impact that really was on performance. It turns out ... not very much at all as even the latest top of the line Radeon 5870 is barely starting to make full use of a 16 bit lane with only a 2% performance drop (resolution dependent) to an 8 bit lane.
Radeon HD 5870 PCI-Express Scaling Report (http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/HD_5870_PCI-Express_Scaling/1.html)
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Explain what Fulmar? I was very specific in my statements. PCI-E x16 1.0/1.1 is not the same as PCI-E x16 2.0...otherwise there wouldn't be 2 separate specifications...that is in regards to Baldy's assertion on the total available number of PCI-E x16 (1.1 and 2.0) is higher than what is available in AGP. There may be a capacity for backward compatibility but they are not one and the same.
I wholeheartedly agree with you and Baldy's assertion that if a person has the finanical ability to afford a full system upgrade (mobo, cpu, gpu, memory, psu) then that is better in the long run than a short term fix.
On the other hand when it comes to AH, none of the video cards on this list (PCI-E x16):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%201069609641&name=PCI%20Express%20x16 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%201069609641&name=PCI%20Express%20x16)
Will outperform this video card (AGP 8x):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161284 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161284)
Nor would any lower end PCI-E x16 2.0 cards such as the GeForce 9500GT I just replaced.
But we have hijacked this thread enough...don't ya think?
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Explain what Fulmar? I was very specific in my statements. PCI-E x16 1.0/1.1 is not the same as PCI-E x16 2.0...otherwise there wouldn't be 2 separate specifications...that is in regards to Baldy's assertion on the total available number of PCI-E x16 (1.1 and 2.0) is higher than what is available in AGP. There may be a capacity for backward compatibility but they are not one and the same.
I wholeheartedly agree with you and Baldy's assertion that if a person has the finanical ability to afford a full system upgrade (mobo, cpu, gpu, memory, psu) then that is better in the long run than a short term fix.
On the other hand when it comes to AH, none of the video cards on this list (PCI-E x16):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%201069609641&name=PCI%20Express%20x16 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048%201069609641&name=PCI%20Express%20x16)
Will outperform this video card (AGP 8x):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161284 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161284)
Nor would any lower end PCI-E x16 2.0 cards such as the GeForce 9500GT I just replaced.
But we have hijacked this thread enough...don't ya think?
I'm sorry I fail to see your point you compare 40 dollar cards to a 120 dollar card? Do you really think those are all the PCI-E cards available on newegg? The only separating factor between x16 and x16 2.0 cards is the design date, newer cards are built for the 2.0 bus. It does _not_ define the card in any way.
Even if you could get a high performance AGP card your CPU sockets will force you CPU limited anyway so there just isn't an upgrade path available.
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I'm sorry I fail to see your point you compare 40 dollar cards to a 120 dollar card? Do you really think those are all the PCI-E cards available on newegg? The only separating factor between x16 and x16 2.0 cards is the design date, newer cards are built for the 2.0 bus. It does _not_ define the card in any way.
Must be a blinding paradigm. Try re-reading the entire thread from beginning to end to the point of comprehension and see if you can get a clearer picture.
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Must be a blinding paradigm. Try re-reading the entire thread from beginning to end to the point of comprehension and see if you can get a clearer picture.
The picture is that you make a huge deal about nothing, AGP is dead and PCI-E is the way to go for upgrades.
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The picture is that you make a huge deal about nothing, AGP is dead and PCI-E is the way to go for upgrades.
AGP is only dead if you can afford to upgrade to PCI-E 2.0 mid to upper tier...otherwise, as of right now, it's still a viable option for people who don't have the money that you have.
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AGP is only dead if you can afford to upgrade to PCI-E 2.0 mid to upper tier...otherwise, as of right now, it's still a viable option for people who don't have the money that you have.
As I said the problem with AGP upgrades is that most likely the user will be heavily CPU bound after the upgrade. This means that if the performance still isn't up to task the user must dump EVERY component in his system including the new and expensive graphics card that will have no use anywhere after that.
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As I said the problem with AGP upgrades is that most likely the user will be heavily CPU bound after the upgrade. This means that if the performance still isn't up to task the user must dump EVERY component in his system including the new and expensive graphics card that will have no use anywhere after that.
Ok since we have officially hijacked this thread and the OP has enough info to make an informed decision on his own. For the sake of argument here...let's say you're right and even with the purchase of the new card he isn't getting any better graphics performance with that Radeon 4670, he has 30 days to return it for a refund and I'm very sure anyone would know within 24 hours...and he's out the cost of return postage $20 and now he can firmly plan for his future system purchase knowing without a doubt that it is necessary.
How do you figure "cpu bound"? I have a P-4 2.4 GHz HT system with a (borderline adequate) Geforce 7300GT OC 512MB in it running on an AGP 8x interface (it runs the newest FPS and RTS games without an issue). It handles AH fairly well with 40 to 60 frames and only 75% max cpu usage, and that is with teamspeak running. I could put that Radeon 4670 in the P-4 system and improve the graphics settings without taking any more of a cpu hit than I am now...in order to get AH to run smoothly with my Core 2 2.4 GHz system I have to run AH in compatibility mode and I'm only getting 75-80% cpu usage on a single core and that's also with teamspeak running...and I have a brand new GTS 250 in it. The P-4 system is no more cpu bound than the dual core.
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How do you figure "cpu bound"?
There is a limit to what the GPU can do alone. In order to fully utilize the GPU processing power the CPU must provide enough cycles at the background. Without enough CPU power the GPU gets throttled i.e. wasted.
AH2 is not the most demanding gaming title in the world but then again it's rarely the only title the user wants to run. A P4 system is going to set clear restrictions on overall performance. Where the limit goes I don't know but I've seen several gaming reviews where the CPU has become the limit instead of GPU (different graphics cards show frame to frame similar performance because CPU is limiting them).
So keeping this in mind you can only do so much with AGP before you're inevitably going to have to switch to PCI-E to get more punch.
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There is a limit to what the GPU can do alone. In order to fully utilize the GPU processing power the CPU must provide enough cycles at the background. Without enough CPU power the GPU gets throttled i.e. wasted.
AH2 is not the most demanding gaming title in the world but then again it's rarely the only title the user wants to run. A P4 system is going to set clear restrictions on overall performance. Where the limit goes I don't know but I've seen several gaming reviews where the CPU has become the limit instead of GPU (different graphics cards show frame to frame similar performance because CPU is limiting them).
So keeping this in mind you can only do so much with AGP before you're inevitably going to have to switch to PCI-E to get more punch.
Yeah, you're right on that...agreed.
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Ok guys...this has really gotten stirred up...I will add to it and give you all a face/palm moment now...I went and looked for the 4670..I didn't buy online I went to a shop I use.. They didn't have one...they could get me one but the price was what I'd consider a bit too much considering the fact that this is only for a cheap fix so to speak... I ended up getting a 4650 with the option to bring it back if it didn't perform good enough....... well...I can now run full graphics with average of 50 frames over land. over water it gets up to 80...when in a very busy area....20-30 cons I turn off reflections as my frames are very up and down. In all other cases though it seems to be good...I will have to check another couple of maps yet to be sure, but it seems to be doing the trick...
cheers guys, thanks for all your input....I always learn things with posts like these....
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.20-30 cons I turn off reflections as my frames are very up and down.
This is most likely due to running out of CPU. Glad to hear you could get satisfactory results though.