Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: minke on November 03, 2009, 04:56:26 AM
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Just how effective were these? I've found various sources on angle of inclination,gun/ammo type etc. Was intersted in tactics and registered kills using them.
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Shrage Musik forward-angled upward-firing cannon (Schrage Musik = 'Slanting Music', the German term for 'jazz') were very effective, particularly as tracer was usually omitted from the ammo loadout and thus the target had no idea where the shots were coming from until too late. The favoured tactic was to gently climb to a position behind and below the target's wing (which silhouetted the target against the lighter upper sky), then fire into the wing between the fuselage and engines; any shot aimed directly into the fuselage underside risked setting off the bombs and destroying the attacker along with his victim. It wasn't until a few lucky survivors were carefully examined and the shot trajectories established as having come from behind and below that the RAF's aircrews realised what was going on. Not that anything was done about it, other than sending out Mosquito nightfighters on intruder sweeps to take on the Bf110s, He219s and Ju88s.
I haven't got any figures for registered kills using Shrage Musik alone. I do know that the Japanese used the same idea, mounting cannon in a nightfighter variant of the Ki46 'Dinah' and the more specialised Nakajima J1N 'Irving'.
:cool:
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So it's just an oblique mounted cannon? I remember a night variant of the A6M5 having a 20mm mounted like that, though I heard it wasn't very effective.
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Here's the Schräge Musik guns of the Do-17Z N-1/2 night fighter. Quadruple 20 mm cannon:
(http://www.histavia21.net/MAN217/210.jpg)
And the sight:
(http://www.histavia21.net/MAN217/221.jpg)
Schräge Musik gives the fighter all the advantage in a night engagement: Stealth from both visual detection and radar (against the dark ground) while silhouetting the target bomber against the lighter sky. The bomber is also a much larger and easier target viewed from bellow.
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The tactic was best used in WW2 against heavy night bombers flying straight-and-level. One of its advantages is that deflection is kept to a minimum; another is the fact that rounds from obliquely-fired guns keep straight longer than those fired horizontally, at least for the first crucial part of their trajectory.
It's interesting that almost certainly the first use of 'slanting fire' was by Albert Ball, the RFC's first well-known 'ace' of WW1. He perfected the art of diving or climbing into the fight then pulling back his single Lewis gun on its overwing mounting to an oblique angle (45-50 degrees) and firing into the undersides of his selected target, which was usually a German two-seater. This placed him into his target's blind spot where the gunner couldn't bring his gun to bear - but it didn't prevent the target's companions firing across at the little Nieuport and Ball often returned to base with his mount shot full of holes. His was a method usable only by an extraordinary 'scout' pilot - definitely not recommended for the novice! - and most dogfighters favoured forward-firing, belt-fed machine guns. Towards the end of WW1, RFC/RAF specialised 'Comic' nightfighter variants of the One-and-a-Half Strutter and Camel were produced; armament was two Lewis mounted on twin Foster mountings on the upper centre-section, which enjoyed the advantages already mentioned and prevented the pilot from losing his 'night vision' when the guns fired.
I regularly used the tactic to shoot down lone Huns in Dawn of Aces. I'd ease into the target's blind spot, then fly formation and gently climb until I was within range in my SE5a; back came the Lewis and it usually took only one or two short, well-aimed bursts to send the victim to Valhalla.
:cool:
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Installation in a Ki-46:
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/fww2/ki46-i.jpg)
The photo is poor quality and I can't find a better one, so here is a model of that aircraft:
(http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/images/dinahcw_3.jpg)
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I regularly used the tactic to shoot down lone Huns in Dawn of Aces. I'd ease into the target's blind spot, then fly formation and gently climb until I was within range in my SE5a; back came the Lewis and it usually took only one or two short, well-aimed bursts to send the victim to Valhalla.
:cool:
I was actually thinking of DoA when I read the first post...if iEN could implement a "pseudo Schragemusik" in DoA, HTC could certainly do it in AH. They'd only need to change the angle of the gun and maybe implement a new "view" to reflect the gun sight of the angled gun.
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And add on the weight of the installation to the flight model of the Bf110 that carries it.
:cool:
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And add on the weight of the installation to the flight model of the Bf110 that carries it.
:cool:
What are you on about?
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Schrage Musik was usually installed in addition to the aircraft's normal forward-firing armament, not instead of it.
:cool:
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Sure, but what's your point?
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is there any data regarding which squadrons were equipped with it?
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The NJG's.
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Sure, but what's your point?
Seems rather clear to me; "They'd only need to change the angle of the gun and maybe implement a new 'view' to reflect the gun sight of the angled gun...and add on the weight of the installation to the flight model of the Bf110 that carries it."
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Don't HTC model the weight of all gun options in all the planes in the game?
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Yes, but he's just saying what needs to be done to create a Bf110 equipped with the oblique guns.
THat, or joking about how heavy the installation was, if it was very heavy.
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Well in addition to figuring out the change in weight, drag and CoG of the Schrage Musik gun configuration, you'd probably also need to model a decent in-flight radar (and factor in the weight and drag of the radar antennae). I can't image using the Schrage Musik gun configuration in a daylight dogfight; that sort of gun configuration was designed for night fighting which probably had more in common with a battle between submarines and destroyers rather than air to air combat as we know it. Also, in night fighting, maneuverability wasn't as important as other factors (like endurance).
For more information, you can check http://www.airbattle.co.uk/nightfighter.html and http://www.gmtgames.com/p-233-nightfighter.aspx.
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lol :headscratch: