Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: lagger86 on November 08, 2009, 05:46:19 AM
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I have been here off and on for 3 years now and I have never received any training. I have asked for some, but my work hours are lame, and my free time is limited so it never happens(I could probably try harder, but I lag). I have a lot of fun playing this game, but seem stuck in my ways.
Is it possible to teach a 36 year old dog some new tricks? I find my plane choice in LW a bit over matched, but that is no excuse for being as bad as I am. I know how the MA is and accept it. I fly the F6F and Fm2 mostly and there are many pile its that have a lot of success in them. I know my tactics suck, and while I fly looking behind me more often than not, my SA still sucks.
I think my biggest problem is flying with a "made up code of conduct" I don't jump into a 1v1 unless I am called upon, I don't HO(because silat told me not to a long time ago), and I don't chase a con when there are 2 to 90 already on the train. I find that a lot of people fly without that so called "code" and more power to them, they do better than I do.
I am just wondering what I should be working on at this point in my AH career. Any advice is welcomed. You can also attempt to flame me, but I have thick skin....I usually praise the people that kill me in the MA via PM....I'm sure it can be annoying, but I strive to be able to pull off some of the maneuvers I get beat by.
Above all I'm just here for a break from real life and just to have some fun. If you think you can help me...by all means do so.
Lagger
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Had a look at your stats.
Seems you have trouble breaking contact against planes that can outmaneuver you yet...they are slower than you.
I notice alot of your deaths are from Spitfires and Zekes. The Hellcat would have no problem disengaging from these planes if you bugged out early enough. Seems to me you've fallen for the old "stay and fight regardless" scheme of these pilots that fly slower planes. You do realize the guys that advocate not running from a losing fight fly these planes right? It's the only way they can get guys to stick around long enough to die to them.
This tour, I'd suggest ignoring the Spits and Zekes (and anyone else that is slower than you). Concentrate on the planes that are faster and less maneuverable to be your victims. The Hellcat (and Wildcat) are strong planes but the tighter turning planes are eating you up. Be a little more discriminating who you fight. Theres no rule that says you have to fight everyone you meet.
Remember history too. The Hellcat wasn't as maneuverable as the Zero's and Zekes. It was more a question of pilot training, teamwork and a huge advantage in numbers that got the job done. As good as the Zero and Zeke was they still couldn't replace pilots fast enough to make up the losses of their best pilots. After Midway, it was down hill. In Aces High, where you don't die for real, we just keep getting better and better.
Hope this helps a bit.
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Yes blooz you are correct, I do fight against planes that I know can out turn me. It's so much fun...but that is one of my bad habits. I really need to stop doing that.
I thank you for your response
Lagger. :salute
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http://www.savagesquadron.com/dicta.htm (http://www.savagesquadron.com/dicta.htm)
Here are a few rules to live by in the game of aerial combat.
This will definately help.
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thanks man, I have read those......I just REALLY need to apply them. I guess I just need to think more when I fly, but when I play AH I am usually trying not to think. I realize that probably 80% of my deaths are because I fly stupid, the other 20% are just getting destroyed by better pilots 1v1....I can't blame my airplane if I don't fly to it's strength. I can stay high and fast against a zeke, but I usually don't because I'd rather get low and slow...it's really stupid when I think about it.
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Nothing wrong with having a code of ethics, as long as those ethics don't take all the fun out.
I agree with Blooz, try a tour in A6m's and spits. If nothing else you'll gain a much clearer picture of how those planes need to fly to win.
As for teaching old dogs new tricks, well, yes and no. Depends on the habits and how badly you want to progress.
I'm in the TA most afternoons, but if that time doesn't work for you shoot me a PM and we'll see if we can't hook up sometime soon.
I warn you though, I'll probably start you off in a D3a1 to work on basics.
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Link to kill page. type names in select arena and tout date. If you look me up do it from tour 114 or earlier in main arena.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/players.php
I wasn't to bad in an F6f. The trick with the F6 is flaps. in turns use 1 or 2 notches but get the flaps back up asap. Spits are quicker so catching them is a pain but in turn fights the F6 has the edge and even more so when using flaps.
With zero's try to be high or faster to zoom fight or BnZ the buggers. You can turn with them in a couple of turn but you'll lose the edge after that and this is where you'll need alt to dive away. The zero compresses and doesn't turn half as well when it's real fast. The f6 is faster and can turn tighter at speed . If your up against a hot shot zero fighter BnZ it.
When getting drawn into vertical fights which isn't ideal for F6's use flat, notched flap turns and catch em on there descending side.
P.S you must learn the weakness of enemy planes to use it against them in your fight.
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I notice alot of your deaths are from Spitfires and Zekes. The Hellcat would have no problem disengaging from these planes if you bugged out early enough.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=33&p2=86&pw=1>ype=0)
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I'm in the same boat as you Lagger, but I'm in my 50's :D
While Blooz has some great comments, it only relates to one style of game play, winning the fight. Flying a BnZ style of fighting is the very best way to fight as it is very rare.... as long as you stay strictly BnZ... will you ever loose a fight. On the other hand I find that kind of fighting to be about as exciting as watching paint dry :rolleyes: Blooz is saying NOT to engage spit and zeros and other slower planes. In the MA's taking out spits are half the targets !
You have to decide what type of game play you want, and go from there. I like the fight, period! win loose or draw, I couldn't care less.... tho winning does seem to be a bit more fun :aok To that end, I'd fly the F6 like an "E" fighter against those slower planes. If it looks like the guy flying the slower plane doesn't really know what he's doing I might even turn a circle or two against him. To me this is fun. To Blooz it might be stupid, to you.... well only you really know.
Once you KNOW how you want to play, then you look to see what your doing wrong that is killing your fun. Work on that. My biggest problem was and still is to some extent is my aim, it's just terrible. I hooked up with Ghost and he stuck me in that darn D3a1 and gave me a few pointers. It took my hit percentage of 2-3% to 5-6%. While that is still nothing to brag about it is twice as good as before, and I've been able to maintain that for months.
So my tips are,
- Identify what style of game play YOU have fun at.
- Then identify what areas of that type of play that your having trouble with.
- Then get with a trainer for a few minutes to get some 1 on 1 training in that area.
Once you have the basics down.... which I assume you do... each step up to the next "plateau" is an exercise in fine tuning, small things like knowing when to loosen a turn, go nose up, or nose down, or the timing on the flaps. By IDing the area your having trouble in you can tweak these things. Your getting beat by spits and zeros. Are you staying in a turn too long with them? Are they forcing an over shoot? If its the turn issue, maybe you need to work on high yo-yos or nose up turns, maybe spiral climbing turns. If its the over shoots, maybe you need work on slowing your plane quick, or turning "out of plane" after your pass to give them a smaller window to shoot at you.
Film ALL fights. I name them.... from the tower most times... what happened in the fight. "out turned by spit" and so on so I know what to look for when I play them back. If you have trouble figuring out what you did wrong, post the film on the boards, you'll get all kinds of responses :devil Most will be helpful, oh you could read only the responses of people you respect. The point is you'll get views from different perspectives from people from different styles.
WHile this game is fun, you'll be learning it for a long time. The "learning" part of it never ends, and if your memory is anything like mine each thing takes longer to stick in my memory so it take even longer ! :D
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Lagger, glad to see another old schooler who refrains from the Ho/ 1v1 initerruption.
Lazs does quite well in his FM2 in the MA and Greebo's F6 is verry successful in the MA. Find out what they're doing. I have little experience in either. I wish I could help you more.
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I know my tactics suck, and while I fly looking behind me more often than not, my SA still sucks.
I think my biggest problem is flying with a "made up code of conduct" I don't jump into a 1v1 unless I am called upon, I don't HO(because silat told me not to a long time ago), and I don't chase a con when there are 2 to 90 already on the train. I find that a lot of people fly without that so called "code" and more power to them, they do better than I do.
Resorting to the tactics your "made up code of conduct" forbids won't make you any better, and following that "code" isn't making you any worse. If anything, lowering your standards will lower your skill (IMO).
I'd look right back at the first sentence i quoted you on, and fix that part.
I don't know if we've fought much, and I haven't seen any films, so I can't comment there. But looking at your posts, the planes you die against, and your Hit%, I have a mental image of what I think may be happening.
It's very much ok to resort to the slow fights with the decent turners, as long as you dictate that certain things will happen. You have the ability to dictate those conditions, because you're in the faster plane.
While not getting shot yourself, you need to present yourself a shot (which you need to connect on) quickly in the fight. You need to leave yourself an option to get out, and reset the fight if you do miss, and you need to make sure you don't get yourself pinned down.
The longer you allow the fight to drag out, the poorer your prospects for survival. Even if you do end up killing that guy, your SA and E-state will be so degraded that you'll be easy pickings for the next guy along.
PM me if you want, and we can see if we can work out some TA time. I work an atrocious schedule as well, so maybe it'll match with yours, lol!
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Had a look at your stats.
Seems you have trouble breaking contact against planes that can outmaneuver you yet...they are slower than you.
I notice alot of your deaths are from Spitfires and Zekes. The Hellcat would have no problem disengaging from these planes if you bugged out early enough. Seems to me you've fallen for the old "stay and fight regardless" scheme of these pilots that fly slower planes. You do realize the guys that advocate not running from a losing fight fly these planes right? It's the only way they can get guys to stick around long enough to die to them.
This tour, I'd suggest ignoring the Spits and Zekes (and anyone else that is slower than you). Concentrate on the planes that are faster and less maneuverable to be your victims. The Hellcat (and Wildcat) are strong planes but the tighter turning planes are eating you up. Be a little more discriminating who you fight. Theres no rule that says you have to fight everyone you meet.
Remember history too. The Hellcat wasn't as maneuverable as the Zero's and Zekes. It was more a question of pilot training, teamwork and a huge advantage in numbers that got the job done. As good as the Zero and Zeke was they still couldn't replace pilots fast enough to make up the losses of their best pilots. After Midway, it was down hill. In Aces High, where you don't die for real, we just keep getting better and better.
Hope this helps a bit.
I disagree.
What I do is I go for the planes that can out turn me first. I use my energy to kill them, never getting into a turn fight with them. The trick to this is learning the plane set, know what can out turn what. If you like turn fighting, you have to do this, or else you will tend to lose a lot. You fly f6fs and fm2s a lot right lagger86? Well then you should come in high, and go for the spitfires and a6ms using cherry picking tactics, or learn to reverse them, or else you know the consequences.
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There's some great advice in the thread espc from the other trainers. IMO the best way to learn is to push your boundaries. Do things you wouldn't normally do. Fly aircraft you wouldn't have given a second glance. Fly in differnt envrionments or arenas - I'm thinking spend some time scraping the bottom of furball lake in the DA. Fly for different country. Use different tactics. Broaden you view of the game. Push yourself. Learn to love loosing and love learning from those loses. Film EVERYTHING. Review and get others to review your films.
Often you get much worse just before you get much much better.
Someone posted advice on picking on the better turning aircraft first. I personally go after the faster aircraft because they're the biggest threat to you making it out alive - assuming you actually want to of course...
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Not sure about the FM2, but the F6F has terrible visibility out the back. If you don't fly with a wingman or at least fly with some friendlies around, this fact will get you killed quite a lot.
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Wow, some good feedback :aok
I was going through my stats from my first tour (lagger87) through my most recent tour(lagger) and have found that I used to play a heck of a lot more(where did that free time go?). I think the more playing time I put in the better off I am. I actually used to fly the whole plane set pretty much and stopped doing it...why? I have no idea.
Fugitive, I have to agree that strictly BnZ is like watching paint dry, I think that's why I end up blowing all my E on a couple red guys...I lack the ability to combat boredom almost as much as I lack the ability to combat the hoard that ends up chasing me. However, I DO have a lot of fun doing that at times.
My K/D has never really bothered me much, because a capped field is tough for me to leave alone. However my Hit% has always been poor and that bugs me. That is really the only stat I even pay attention to. There have been MANY times that I got into trouble by missing easy shots only to have the fight last longer than it should. When that happens the 1 guy I'm fighting turns into 2 or 3, and I'm already slow. Mtnman pretty much nailed my biggest problem.
I appreciate all of your responses, and you may hear from me when I know I'll have some free time coming up. I don't go into the TA as much as I used to, so I think I will be visiting it a little more often to work on accuracy. What ever happened to the P.S.A.M. guys that used to go in there? They were great.
Lagger
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As far as old dogs go, I have learned so much in the last few months With Ghosth's and Morfend's help and I am 55. BTW I have flown since 1996 and still needed help.
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Lagger,
There's been much good advice given to you,I dont think I can add much to it!
I would ask though,why are you concerned with your stats? If your having fun,escaping from RL etc. what does it matter?Afterall it's just a game.
The 1 thing I'd add to the advice already given to you is,you wont learn in the MA,you've already said you can preform the maneuvers that constantly kill you so why not spend dome time practicing those moves?
A couple hours in the TA will do more for your flying than getting shot down in the MA,also it's not nearly as frustrating.
Work on your ACM,practice shooting and get a general feel for the what, where and when of said ACM and I can guarantee you that you'll see improvements in no time!
:salute
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/newscores/genchart.php?p1=33&p2=86&pw=1>ype=0)
Yeah, I thought that too when I read the first responder's advice. Why do people insist on thinking Spitfires are slow and have poor altitude performance?
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Yeah, I thought that too when I read the first responder's advice. Why do people insist on thinking Spitfires are slow and have poor altitude performance?
Um, because of you? Also that They have wings made of crackjack boxes, their guns run out of ammo before you can say marmelade, they don't have enough fuel to make the pattern, and anyone is lucky to get a k/d of 1:1 in them. ;) :devil
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Yeah, I thought that too when I read the first responder's advice. Why do people insist on thinking Spitfires are slow and have poor altitude performance?
I looked at his stats. He dies more to Seafires and Spit 9's than he does from 8's and 16's. He obviously knows they are more powerful planes and already avoids them when he can.
On the deck the Hellcat has no problem outrunning the Seafire, Spits 5, 9, Hurricanes, Zero's and Zekes. Those are the planes he gets killed by more than anything else.
It's not a question of fancy flying tricks he needs. He needs to change his attitude toward wanting to live through the sortie rather than just giving up and getting killed because, "oh well, it's just a game". With that attitude you don't improve. He just needs a little knowledge about what his Hellcat can do versus other planes.
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Also BnZ fighting doesn't have to be utterly boring. Instead of straight BnZ, you can transition it to energy fighting with a well planned rope after the first one or two passes. A shallow spiral climb works well with better climbing planes (won't work very well for F6F) starting Co-E.
There's nothing wrong with a knife fight, you just have to use whatever advantages you have. For example, if I'm going K4 vs Hurri, I know I'm going to die in any kind of a turn fight. Instead I'll either rope or spiral climb him and use my energy to gain a reversal. I'm still actively fighting, but it's a bit more conservative than going fangs out because I know I'm pretty much guaranteed to die if I play the Hurri's game.
For the F6F, you don't have any real advantages vs a Spit 9 other than turn radius with flaps and durability. Looks like you're going to have to sucker the Spit into a scissoring fight and use your tighter turn radius with a few notches of flaps to nail him. Or if the F6F turns quickly enough with a few notches, you might be able to beat him in a nose-tail fight (but that will generally be a long drawn out affair).
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Lagger,
There's been much good advice given to you,I dont think I can add much to it!
I would ask though,why are you concerned with your stats? If your having fun,escaping from RL etc. what does it matter?Afterall it's just a game.
The 1 thing I'd add to the advice already given to you is,you wont learn in the MA,you've already said you can preform the maneuvers that constantly kill you so why not spend dome time practicing those moves?
A couple hours in the TA will do more for your flying than getting shot down in the MA,also it's not nearly as frustrating.
Work on your ACM,practice shooting and get a general feel for the what, where and when of said ACM and I can guarantee you that you'll see improvements in no time!
:salute
Yeah I agree morfiend, when I used to play a lot I'd go into the TA regularly and work on little things here and there. I used to do much better than I do now.....coincidence? I think not :)
Also I have never been concerned with rank, score, or anything like that....I couldn't care less actually. I just meant that I would look at my hit% as a reference to see if I'm hitting anything, however I'll strafe buildings in fighter mode and de ack.... so I guess that stat is misleading as well(much like rank in general).
Overall I enjoy playing AH and I'm just trying to refocus on exactly what people have been sharing in this thread.
again, thanks to everyone who has taken the time to give advice.
Lagger
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It's not a question of fancy flying tricks he needs. He needs to change his attitude toward wanting to live through the sortie rather than just giving up and getting killed because, "oh well, it's just a game".
Blooz, I think that is the exactly right. I didn't catch that until just now. :salute
I often fly into hordes off a carrier knowing there is little chance of survival and don't really care, however I don't see that changing because it is just too fun. That is why I usually get dirty with the Zekes, but again that is fun for me. However when I do get some alt coming in, that is when I would like to fly a little longer. That is where I need to focus and fly with some sort of plan. That is where I need to fix my bad habits.
:cheers:
Lagger
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I don't HO(because silat told me not to a long time ago)
I would suggest starting here. All the BS about how head on shots are bad is a pet peeve of mine. The goal of air combat is to make bullets from your plane hit their plane. The angle of said shot is completely irrelevant. Yes, it is generally not a good idea to go for the head on shot, but 99.9% of the people whining about it have no idea why. It has nothing to do with some "code" ... it is because you are wasting the opportunity for a lead turn. The goal at the merge should be to get separation to allow an aggressive lead turn back into the opponent, or if you believe they have significantly more speed than you, to turn away from them and get them to overshoot. If the opponent wants to go for the head on shot you can gain an easy 45-90 degree on him right at the merge and gain the upper hand. Once you master the lead turn, you will be complaining if people DON'T go for the head on shot!
With a well timed lead turn:
- It is impossible for an opponent going for a head on shot to land bullets on you (the trick is to roll slightly as you think they are in guns range). In fact, if he is determined to point his nose at you you can control which direction he will turn. usually it is a good idea stay below them and make them turn nose low, since their turn radius at the bottom of the turn will be larger than yours.
- You can gain a huge angular advantage at the merge, putting the opponent at the disadvantage.
The trick is figuring out which one of these 3 you are facing:
- Someone who goes for the head on shot ... (noob who doesn't understand lead turns)
- Someone who avoids the head on shot because it is "bad" and the mean people on the forums will make fun of them (noob who doesn't understand lead turns)
- Someone who avoids the head on shot because they are aggressively turning at the merge (you should watch out for these people ... and strive to become one).
I think that there are three separate sets of skills needed to be successful in this game. The first is being able to out manoeuvre someone, the second is being able to put bullets on target, and the last is fighting in a crowded airspace.
In the main arena I think the biggest trick is to keep track of the situation around you. It is pretty rare to find yourself in a 1v1, it is more likely, especially during peak times that you will have a numbers advantage or disadvantage at any moment. It is important to regularly check the darbars in your sector, and all the sectors around yours, keeping track of who has the strength in numbers, who had the alt advantage at that moment, and regularly looking around. It also helps if you choose to attack a base that is isolated on at least one side, for example if it is on the coast. That limits the number of directions you have to keep track of. I probably have the map open more than 75% of the time as I am flying, trying to get a feel for where a fight is going to go. Every 10-20 seconds I will put it away, look around, then bring it out again. This is also a good way to get a feel for when a tasty vulch is about to develop!
Also take note of landmarks and the sun when you are entering a fight so that you can dive away from trouble in the right direction without having to open the map. Trying to dive away but going in the wrong direction is a sure way to get ganged in this game!
More than anything else, I have found that getting films of expert players and watching them from as many angles as I could helped me more than anything else. In particular, taking note of flaps, rudder, power changes, etc. Another useful thing that I still do occasionally is to go offline and shoot drones for 10 or 20 minutes for all different speeds and angles.
Another tip is to take note on the E6B page of your plane's weight. Look at it with full ammo and fuel, half ammo and fuel and almost empty. In some planes the difference can be over a ton. It is amazing how much of an affect that weight has on the performance of the plane. Weight is everything! I have out turned spit 16s in a P47 that had almost no ammo or fuel left. Whichever plane I am in, I usually have target weights for each type of flying. For example, at X weight it is high speed passes only. At Y weight I can turn aggressively to get kills, but I try to keep my speed up and be picky about who I choose to attack. At Z weight I can get down and dirty and make speed sacrificing turns (usually just the last couple of minutes before I am out of fuel and ammo). If I am headed home and get bounced and decide that I probably wont see anyone else, I will cook off most of my ammo to lighten the plane, just leave enough for the 1 kill. As I said, weight is everything! It also helps to use a bit of detective work to judge how heavy your opponent might be. For example, if you are near their base and they are just taking off, you can be pretty confident that they are fairly heavy.
I hope this helps. More than anything else, practice, do some reading on tactics and ACM on the various websites (like the excellent netaces.org), and watch a lot of films!
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I would suggest starting here. All the BS about how head on shots are bad is a pet peeve of mine. The goal of air combat is to make bullets from your plane hit their plane. The angle of said shot is completely irrelevant. Yes, it is generally not a good idea to go for the head on shot, but 99.9% of the people whining about it have no idea why. It has nothing to do with some "code" ... it is because you are wasting the opportunity for a lead turn. The goal at the merge should be to get separation to allow an aggressive lead turn back into the opponent, or if you believe they have significantly more speed than you, to turn away from them and get them to overshoot. If the opponent wants to go for the head on shot you can gain an easy 45-90 degree on him right at the merge and gain the upper hand. Once you master the lead turn, you will be complaining if people DON'T go for the head on shot!
When I think of a HO, I think of flying directly at someone co-alt with the sole intention of shooting them in the face. When you get two pilots doing that, I think that situation is a legit super hoing experience. That is what I don't do anymore. When I said "I don't HO because Silat told me not to" I was being a bit sarcastic, although he did tell me that, and explained the reasoning behind it. That explanation was quite similar to yours Gryffin. That is one bit of advice I took in and applied to my flying. Using a somewhat head on situation has helped with merges because I can either use it as a way to gain an advantage on a lead turn, or dive through it and disengage depending on the situation. After a cold merge(even just on my part) is where I need to just shoot and throw the whole misconception of a HO out, I have a bad habit of giving up shots in a good 1v1 because I deem them head on when they're really not....and that is just stupid on my part.
The rest of your post is certainly some food for thought, I have never thought about a lot of the things you pointed out.
:salute
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While it may not be a generally agreed on explanation, to me a HO is 2 guys both going nose to nose from a distance, say behind 2k. It is looked down on because it is a low or no skill option.
While any shot after the first merge is a "hot merge" or a front quarter shot in a maneuver fight.
Since both opponents are maneuvering by definition it is not a HO. And it should carry no stigma.
Granted you may get some shots in a E fight with fast planes that are tough to say HO or not HO.
But anytime someone has to turn to get guns on target your clearly out of the HO definition.
That being said, sure, everyone may do it sometimes.
The difference is the low/no skill dweeb will always do it.
Thats where the stigma comes from. That and the lack of skill required to get a kill that way.
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Hi,
I am not a good pilot but I have been getting better. Mostly I think is patience. If there is a furball get up to about 12-15k and look around you. Work the edges and when you attack do it toward friendlies and your base. When you dive down on a target get completely away from the furball and keep a lookout behind you get your alt back then go back to the furball work on the planes that are low and slow or coming back up. When they get to the top of the climb is a good time to pick'em. I try to stalk my prey for a little before going down to see what he is doing. I still usually get low and slow and target fixated then sometimes let someone slip up and kill me but it is getting less frequent. If you are outnumbered the BnZ style of attack is your only option the TnB will only get you back to the tower fast.
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Yes blooz you are correct, I do fight against planes that I know can out turn me. It's so much fun...but that is one of my bad habits. I really need to stop doing that.
I thank you for your response
Lagger. :salute
hellcats have a distinct adv over zekes, they are faster... now, this doesn't mean you have to just run... quite the contrary, here is how I fight zekes in larger planes including the hellcat...
1st scenario-(safe bet) you see a co-alt zeke at 5000 yards... nose down and into your enemy... be conscience of your speed, you are trying to get as much as possible preferably 400+ before merge..... as you pass, zoom climb, and do a slow vertical drag.... when the zeke turns and attempts to climb up to you, he will have exhausted much of his E, and you will have saved yours.. then as your AS gets to just at 200, make an up to the right and flap yourself over on top of him and flame him!
2nd scenario- (risky) same as first encounter except when you dive to merge with him, drain all of your E. rudder, flaps, anything you can do to keep your speed around 240-280... when you pass, if the zeke doesnt expend his E, he will be too fast to turn with you at the bottom... simply cut throttle when he goes by, and pull a hard G blackout turn up and to the right, (be sure to keep a small window in the blackout) and pull around and you should have one snapshot on him before you loose this created advantage.
hope this helps,
Mark
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hellcats have a distinct adv over zekes, they are faster... now, this doesn't mean you have to just run... quite the contrary, here is how I fight zekes in larger planes including the hellcat...
1st scenario-(safe bet) you see a co-alt zeke at 5000 yards... nose down and into your enemy... be conscience of your speed, you are trying to get as much as possible preferably 400+ before merge..... as you pass, zoom climb, and do a slow vertical drag.... when the zeke turns and attempts to climb up to you, he will have exhausted much of his E, and you will have saved yours.. then as your AS gets to just at 200, make an up to the right and flap yourself over on top of him and flame him!
2nd scenario- (risky) same as first encounter except when you dive to merge with him, drain all of your E. rudder, flaps, anything you can do to keep your speed around 240-280... when you pass, if the zeke doesnt expend his E, he will be too fast to turn with you at the bottom... simply cut throttle when he goes by, and pull a hard G blackout turn up and to the right, (be sure to keep a small window in the blackout) and pull around and you should have one snapshot on him before you loose this created advantage.
hope this helps,
Mark
What about fighting f4u4s? they have the power to follow you up and when they get slow... the flaps come out... I have yet to find a safe way to tame that monster. esp when they are piloted by someone who has lazer-like aim with the 50s who can hit you from 600+ out np.
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What about fighting f4u4s? they have the power to follow you up and when they get slow... the flaps come out... I have yet to find a safe way to tame that monster. esp when they are piloted by someone who has lazer-like aim with the 50s who can hit you from 600+ out np.
I was replying how to fight zekes, which was oneof his concerns. If I were in a hellcat and had to fight a 4-hog, I would dive to deck giving the hog my 6 from 1000 to 800 out, I would cut throttle and force an overshoot using angles, and blast him right in his sixspot! :aok
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How would you fight a spit16 at co-alt with an F6? I know looping isn't the answer and you can't run because they are faster.
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I was replying how to fight zekes, which was oneof his concerns. If I were in a hellcat and had to fight a 4-hog, I would dive to deck giving the hog my 6 from 1000 to 800 out, I would cut throttle and force an overshoot using angles, and blast him right in his sixspot! :aok
ahh sorry, didn't realize I was hijacking the thread, only read your post & the thread title
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How would you fight a spit16 at co-alt with an F6? I know looping isn't the answer and you can't run because they are faster.
Lead turn merge, try for the kill on the snapshot. If that doesn't work, you've probably gained enough angles that you can disengage.
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Lead turn merge, try for the kill on the snapshot. If that doesn't work, you've probably gained enough angles that you can disengage.
He asked how to FIGHT a spit16, not run away from one :P
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He asked how to FIGHT a spit16, not run away from one :P
Yeah that's the first sentence I wrote - how to fight. If you can't get the first shot, your advantage in a Hellcat will erode very quickly, so it's best to disengage, all else equal.
The F6F can't win unless the Spit makes a mistake. The F6F's only advantage in a fight is its tighter turn radius with flaps (since the Spit can only drop FULL flaps as opposed to the Hellcat's incremental flaps) which it could use to force a nose-nose fight. However, with the Spit's superior thrust/weight, it can always use the vertical to get out of a turn radius fight and the Hellcat would not be able to follow.
The smartest thing to do is to go for the first shot and then disengage if you miss it. Only if you've gauged that the Spit has an inferior pilot do you press the fight.
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Hard to disengage from a significantly faster aircraft... :uhoh
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Doing a proper lead turn merge, you should have gained enough angles that, if you fail to connect on the critical shot, it will take the Spit a long time to put his nose on you and initiate the chase. During this time, if you know to disengage, you should have a chance to get away.
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If you can get the spit down to below about 230 you stand a good chance in an angles fight.
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Figured this is one post worth chipping in on since it's been running so long and has a lot of solid perspective from a variety of quality sources. From my past perspective here as a former trainer and my overall inclination to fly "lesser" planes like the SBD and A-20 with at least a modest level of success there are 3 area's of focus. This is not specific to "unlearning" as much as it is to refining your understanding of what works and why it works. There are no absolutes at the beginning of a "dogfight", that is no single "magic move" will earn you a victory. This is why most of the uber sticks could care less if someone has the "advantage" and even a somewhat less then uber stick like me is perfectly comfortable tooling around at 8k in an SBD. The guy who's going to kill me in that 12k spixteen will do so a majority of the time regardless of our initial position...just like the "average" spixteen driver will fall to my SBD more often then not.
So....
To be reasonably successful you need to have a solid grasp of the application of BFM in out of plane ACM. Dogfights are fought in 3 dimensions and guys like the ones mentioned in this thread are very good at manipulating and exploiting subtle variations in positioning. This is not uber pilot stuff or "on the edge" flying it's more like basic math for dogfighting. The potential range of motion for any plane is defined by its lift vector. No plane is ever capable of movement outside of this "funnel"...basically it can fly straight or it can turn in the direction thelift vector is pointing (dog house charts). The pilot can manipulate the direction his lift vector is facing (roll) and how big it is (throttle)...that's it. Good pilots manipulate the lift vector in response to both the enemy, the strength of the opponents plane and there perception of the enemies skill level.
All planes are equal across a % of their flight envelope, the good pilot seeks to maneuver to his advantage during this phase and to force the fight in a direction so that as the fight progresses he can exploit his planes advantage (often just momentarily) to seize control of the fight. We'll use the F6F as an example vs the spit. The 1st thing you need to understand is what potential advantage(s) you have and where the major problem is. The F6F has 3 major advantages and 1 disadvantage (again this is my opinion). 1st and foremost it has combat flaps which give it a significant edge thru parts of the flight envelope, 2nd it can bleed E faster and 3rd it has superior rudder/elevator authority at most combat speeds. On the flip side it won't climb as well, it also will not out accelerate or out turn the spitty (in the true sense of the term). So what does all this mean?
An F6F driver wants to fight the spitty in some type of a semi vertical rolling/slashback type of fight that exploits the advantages above. You'll never see an F6F driver of merit "chase" a plane like a spitfire UNLESS he is "in the donut". I've worked with a few of the guys who've posted here at one point or an other. You can view any plane as having a "donut" centered on top behind the cockpit. The faster the plane the bigger the donut, once you gain position in the other guys donut you have control of the fight unless he has enough E to just give you a fleeting shot. You can accomplish goal two ways, you can fly to the other guys donut...or he can bring his donut to you. Marks comments regarding the F6F is simply saying I'll set the guy up and he'll give me his donut. The F6F is one of (if not the best) "two way donut snatchers" in the game. Once you get a guy in position he rarely gets out since you can flap,rudder to match any turn and you can hose him out to 800+. So the F6 driver knows if he is a bit out of plane he can get slower quicker or keep his E looking for a quick chance to force a shot window or fly out of plane lag...all he needs to do is get the spit driver to pull hard and the fights over unless the F6 driver gets out piloted...basically the spit is about a 1-3 dog even up vs a decent F6F driver unless its a true spit ace (and there are some) in which case its all pilot skill.
I'll see if I have a clip here that makes sense as an illustration...
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:aok humble
There is a lot of good info here. I started this thread in an attempt to receive some input from different people with their views on fighting in AH as opposed to mine.
Here is what I've learned
1. I have a lot to learn.
2. the AH community is very willing to help anyone if they ask.
3. I have a lot to learn.
:salute
Lagger
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Humble, the problem with slowing down/blowing E is that if you do, you may gain a momentary shot. However, the Spit retains the option of going vertical having not blown his E, whereas you can't follow him.
That's the problem with any plane that attempts to force a turn radius fight if it doesn't have a turn rate advantage. Yes you CAN win, but it all relies on your opponent making the mistake of stepping inside your territory. If your opponent is smart, he'll drive for the shot while he has the advantage and then go vertical once he senses the scissors.
With a big climb rate advantage and more E (since you've just dumped it), he'll be able to outzoom you and thus win the turn radius battle. Once on top, he can do whatever he wants at will.
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Here's a film of me mixing it up completely outnumbered in the Ta152. I inevitably get ganged at the end of the film which was my fault for not disengaging earlier but I was having fun and didn't care. In any event, there's probably a lot to be taken from this film. Enjoy.
http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Ta152 Fun.ahf (http://dasmuppets.com/public/Grizz/Ta152 Fun.ahf)
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:aok humble
There is a lot of good info here. I started this thread in an attempt to receive some input from different people with their views on fighting in AH as opposed to mine.
Here is what I've learned
1. I have a lot to learn.
2. the AH community is very willing to help anyone if they ask.
3. I have a lot to learn.
:salute
Lagger
Most of us (including me) have a lot to learn, more so we can all continue to refine our actual understanding of what we think we know. It's not "unlearning" as much as improved application of what we know in conjunction with "new tricks". Here are a few clips that might help you. Try and view them from the perspective of "in vs out of plane", "relative lift vectors" and "basic tactics"...they should help you get a better feel for some of the stuff I've talked about above....
Clip 1
As a trainer (speaking in past tense) one of hardest things to learn is finding a beginning point. Invariably the "problem" the student wants to work on has its roots somewhere else (normally very basic). Once you wind that weak link in the foundation then 85%+ of the time the light bulb just goes on and a quantum leap occurs. For me the best way to try and sort this out initially is just to have the guy/gal grab a favorite ride and an alt/E advantage and tell them to just kill me. The end result is normally about like this...a fight in the MA that I've had 500+ times in the TA over a decade or so...one of my few gripes with the current TA setting is the lack of damage. If you view my films you notice I often cut my "bait move" very close and absorb strikes but very little if any damage. I do believe this is a learned skill that was helped refined by hundreds of hours flying as a "target drone" back as a trainer. To me I think that as a pure training clip this is the best I ever shot with regard to in/out of plane and lag to lead transitions. I'm never really in control of this fight but can keep the illusion of control enough to "force" errors. None of the shots are forced and I don't waste any E or give up any angular position. wish I could still fly this well:)
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/P40vN1ki.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/P40vN1ki.ahf )
Clip 2
This a good general primer of "common envelope" flying. within a significant % of the flight envelope all planes are similar. There is absolutely nothing at all fancy here or plane specific. To consistently achieve victories and return successfully you have 90% fundamentals and 10% "pilot stuff"...anytime you try pushing it 90/10 the other way you walk home. Again the key here is the overall texture and management of the fight.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/prowling%20A-20.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/prowling%20A-20.ahf )
Here is a clip from frame#1 of current scenario, if you look toward the end I'm being chased by 3 190's and have a flight of 3 friendlies inbound. You can see that I turn and engage prior to there arrival to get things furballing for them. whats important here is my timing and choice of lines in reaction to how they set up. Was nice flying right up until I lost SA/focus trying to check in and pat myself on the back for some nice flying :furious
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Frame%201%20fun.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Frame%201%20fun.ahf )
Clip 3
This a clip of me in the SBD, in the end my poor gunnery does me in but it gives you a feel for how competative the plane can be vs a fighter (or two). Normally i'd have gotten both of these with little problem...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/SBD.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/SBD.ahf )
Here is a similar clip in A-20
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20and2spits.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20and2spits.ahf )
The only way to get "good" in any plane is to push yourself in it, I'm always looking for good fights vs excellent sticks in "their ride". Here is one of slap slapping me around in the A-20. We had 3 or 4 and he swept me easily, this is the closest of them...but all were fun and this type of action makes a similiar fight vs a lesser stick a lot more winnable IMO.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20and2spits.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/a20and2spits.ahf )
Here are a couple of fights, 1st I happened to have an initial advantage...which led to a bit of an exchange afterward so I invited him to come on back....which he did...2nd fight was a lot of fun...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/grmrpr1.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/grmrpr1.ahf )
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/grmrpr2.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/grmrpr2.ahf )
Other clips at az-dsl.com/snaphook
Feel free to browse about :salute
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Humble, the problem with slowing down/blowing E is that if you do, you may gain a momentary shot. However, the Spit retains the option of going vertical having not blown his E, whereas you can't follow him.
That's the problem with any plane that attempts to force a turn radius fight if it doesn't have a turn rate advantage. Yes you CAN win, but it all relies on your opponent making the mistake of stepping inside your territory. If your opponent is smart, he'll drive for the shot while he has the advantage and then go vertical once he senses the scissors.
With a big climb rate advantage and more E (since you've just dumped it), he'll be able to outzoom you and thus win the turn radius battle. Once on top, he can do whatever he wants at will.
Your making a lot of assumptions about what he can or can't do and what I will or will not allow him to do. You missed a key aspect of my comment I do not need to slow down or bleed E. I already have that advantage built in and to not need to artificially enhance it. Since I could care less if the spit has alt E or both it really doesn't matter if he "retains" any option other then the option to get shot down. The moment any pilot thinks in terms of a "turn radius fight" he's dead meat most of the time since very few good sticks ever fly that basic a fight. Basically your describing a "stick to belly" flyer type mentality....exactly what I want to see. Basically what your describing is the fight I want and the one the spit can't ever win...
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some of you posted, sucker the SpitXVI or the SpitIX into a scissors fight.......... I would not give into this type of maneuvering to early....Scissoring is a defensive tactic normally saved as a last ditch effort because you made a mistake earlier......
however we all have used it as a decoy to show our "6" to the bandit and sucker them in to fighting, I do not recommend using it unless you have nothing else in your bag to pull out....
next, some here have posted some good info, but to reply on what 1 or 2 others mentioned....... I would not let myself get into a mental mindset of "hey he is in a spitfire, I am in an F6f5....so he can outturn me!" ....... just because a spitfire might be able to outturn or outclimb/out accelerate your F6f does not mean he can beat you 1 vs 1 in an angles fight....NOTICE - I said angles and not "Turn Fight"...... here we go back to that 3 deminsional view of a fight and angles means understanding geometry and flying "out of plane" maneuvers/turns.......a decent F6f pilot can turn with a spitfire easily and for sustained amounts of time if the F6f pilot uses out of plane turns against the spitfire who wants to "turn fight"....
and if the F6f flyer conciously practices their "E-Management" skills, then the F6f flyer does not have to give much worry or thought of the spitfire having a mere 5 mph speed advantage or 10 mph when the spit decides to go vertical........or if the SPitfire decides to break off and extend.......well this will play right into the hands of the F6f, if the Spitfire decides to dive out!.......the Hellcat can dive very well....btw noone mentioned this.....
Humble had some good tips on flying lag pursuit..... using lag & pure the F6f flyer can manage his E state, until it is time for him to capitalize on a crossing shot or if the spit messes up and gives the F6f, the spits cone( doughnut/funnel )........
boomerlu? can you explain what you was replying or quoting humble on in more detail? I can not figure out your reply to him??? TY sir
Never mind responding to my question, Boomerlu, Humble done replyed...... no worries
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You may have the advantage built in, but that doesn't mean that bleeding E will allow you to go vertical. I may not be seeing what you're seeing.
How big of an advantage does the F6F have in turn rate with 1-2 notches of flaps? Is it sustainable?
If it's not a sustainable turn rate advantage, you'll lose E more quickly than the Spit. Once you do, the Spit can pull out of plane to deny you the shot (Badboy had a post on this, and that's what I'm referencing).
If he chooses to try to scissor with you rather than fight a nose-tail fight, of course he's dead. But if he RECOGNIZES that you are trying to force a nose-nose fight (and this is the big IF), he'll realize that your E-state will be low enough compared to his that he can go vertical.
Once he's vertical, your chances go down, especially if he does a few jinks to avoid guns while zooming.
Remember, the F6F can't replace E as easily as the Spit. Burning more E by using combat flaps just worsens the situation - you had better get the kill soon or hope the Spit doesn't know that the counter to a scissors is a high yo-yo.
Edit: My big assumption is that the Spit is good or at least as good as the Hellcat driver. Perhaps that's an overestimation since a big part of the analysis comes from Badboy/TC via an old post.
Edit: I probably should have just posted the link. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,271266.0.html
That thread was what made the turn radius vs turn rate concept click in my head.
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boomer,
Complex ACM is just that and its not easy to comment with any real authority on the application of general concepts. We all acquire a general flying style that suite our temperament and many of us can easily identify other pilots we encounter on a regular basis by the various "tells" we all give. Speaking in generalities we can define air combat as being either neutral or having a positional advantage or disadvantage, translating the advantage to a kill is often very easy vs an "average" pilot and darn near impossible vs the Greebo's, Drex's & blukitty's of the world (just a few examples of the top of my head). Since I don't fly in circles and am just as happy to have you 1200 behind or above me as 800 in front the only thing I know for certain is that my intent is to exchange one bad look for control of the fight or to "sit on you" (out of plane lag) till you crack. Obviously my goal is to either exploit an advantage or to create one from adversity. Most of us get smacked around from time to time but by and large I almost never go down in a MA 1 on 1 without having manufactured a "winning position" at some point unless I'm facing a very good stick. now actually converting is a different story....sometimes you are by definition "all in" based on circumstance...other times you can build a sustainable advantage but in the end there is a point were ACM meets gunnery and that is my biggest weakness.
Here is a clip that might help illustrate what I'm saying. This is a relatively even (for MA) fight with me vs a well known C hog driver. This is exactly the "you can't bleed E" and catch him in the vertical...but the truth is you can since nothing is ever absolute...it's all relative and in relation to balancing the variables at hand. here I generate exactly the only fight (in my mind) I can win once he goes angles on the merge and yet the shot itself comes on the low E "zoom" since he can't top me out. The only questionable call is not flying up thru the shot but my gut call was he had a better chance to rotate and saw me up vs bailing on the zoom and running.
In the end good pilots will both try and press the fight they think they can win and also the fight they think the other guy can't win. In then end most of the time I'm looking for switchblades in a phone booth if I can get it. For a spit to turn with me he has to close with me. Getting him from 600 behind me to 200 in front is just a part of the process. A lot of this is feel for managing relative lift vector and confidence that I can make you miss me enough that I'll squeeze on thru your guns pass. If I can make a good stick in a favored ride miss my big ol A-20 I'm pretty confident in being able to make most spit drivers miss my F6F :salute
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/chogflambe.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/chogflambe.ahf)
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Yeah Humble, I think we generally agree.
My style is such that if I'm the Hellcat and I want to live, I'll do the lead turn merge and try for the kill there and if I can't get it, I'll disengage UNLESS the Spit's given me some kind of tell which indicates that he's not as skilled. I am all too aware of how quickly the Spit can erode the Hellcat's angles and energy advantage since I do it all the time in my 109 (for energy) and have had a Spit erode a huge angles advantage I had (I stayed in an angles fight when I should have gone back to energy fighting).
So I think we are saying much the same thing. It's just that I don't look favorably upon a situation that can only be won by superior pilot skill - i.e. relies on your opponent making some kind of mistake.
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to be honest I think we approach it from exactly the opposite tact. You "wan't to live" and I "want you to die", in the end I'll win 90% of the time. ACM is all about controlled aggression. In a fight where your looking to keep an out and I'm looking to push all in you end up not being aggressive enough to win and not being timid enough to live...just the reality IMO :salute
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Snaphook, I didn't read a "stick to belly approach" at all in boomer's post regarding how a good XVI pilot would fly. Rather he described energy tactics. Can you explain?
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energy tactics are not relevant to a turn radius fight. If your +E you have control of the fight. How you choose to use that control is up to you. Being +E is not conducive to a sustained tracking shot, hence the conundrum that allows the pilot in inferior position to kill you. If you keep enough E to get away you can't prevent an overshoot on a true guns solution. If this is further compounded by the other pilot hiding E and/or manipulating angles/lift vector well enough your either all in, all out or all dead. There is no free lunch in ACM...at some point you need to push in all your chips to win. I was simply trying to point out that none of this is relevant to turn radius since I won't be flying in a circle.
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Hmmm, ok. I'd love to try out this f6f vs xvi fight sometime. :)
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anytime U see me up...
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to be honest I think we approach it from exactly the opposite tact. You "wan't to live" and I "want you to die", in the end I'll win 90% of the time. ACM is all about controlled aggression. In a fight where your looking to keep an out and I'm looking to push all in you end up not being aggressive enough to win and not being timid enough to live...just the reality IMO :salute
Yeah, I agree about controlled aggression - that's why I suggested an aggressive lead turn merge. The thing about THIS particular fight is that the F6F loses its advantages over time. The aggression is going for the shot early.
The control is realizing that you are not going to be in any better position during the fight than you are right after that merge unless the Spit makes a mistake.
At THIS point, you have the option of continuing the fight or disengaging. You've gained enough angles that you can disengage by diving out and he won't be able to follow. You'd preserve this out e.g., if this weren't a true 1v1 and you were afraid other cons might come in on you. Controlled aggression is knowing when you have an advantage you can press and knowing that pressing it will give you a bigger advantage over time rather than losing it over time.
If you choose to continue to fight after that, then of course I agree, it's ALL IN or dead. But if the Spit is equally competent, it's more than likely "dead". Hence the emphasis I'm placing on judging pilot skill.
On the other hand, the option for the Spit remains completely open during the entire fight. He can push as aggressively as he wants the whole fight because of better turn rate, going so far as to chop throttle in order to tighten turn radius to match yours, or he can keep an E advantage and zoom when he loses his shot solution. Remember, if the other guy is trying to force an overshoot, you always have the option of going vertical to control closure.
And no, Energy tactics are ENTIRELY relevant to a turn radius fight. I have to completely disagree with you here because horizontal turn radius is reduced to ZERO if you can zoom vertical. That's the entire point of a high yo-yo - to cut inside a turn. Not to mention that all our planes turn tighter at corner velocity than at sustained (by Badboy's numbers).
Edit: If I'm trying to give advice or analyze a specific fight, I have to assume that the opponent doesn't make a mistake except possibly on the merge. The ACM solution is trivial if for example, a 190 chooses to turn fight a Spit16. Or if say... it's a mirror match but your opponent departs from controlled flight for 5 seconds.
If my opponent does make a mistake, there's a whole bag of ACM tricks that can be used and it quickly becomes a very complicated question because it depends on what mistake is made.
Yes, mistakes are part of the game, but when somebody asks me "how do I fight X v Y" I can't in good conscience tell him to rely on his opponent messing up.
Edit: I reviewed your fight against SHawk. Several things stick out. FIRST he retained his drop tank. Mistake 1. Second, the shot solution you generate and win with relies ENTIRELY on his choosing to scissor back across your nose. Mistake 2. If he had simply continued his turn, you would not have gotten that shot on him - he scissored twice in fact. Third, the A20 from what I know has superior slow speed stall characteristics vs the F4U1C. Therefore getting into a slow speed stall fight with an A20 is Mistake 3. This allowed you to pull a barrel roll and reverse him as well as allowed you to get the killing shot. Fourth, you gained angles on him with a climbing lead turn merge while he inexplicably flat turned - Mistake 4. One of the first trainer films I ever watched said "Immelman beats a flat turn."
That fight was as much "He lost" as "You won". P.S., the ACM that you did is very close to what I would have done.
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I think your missing the entire point here on a number of fronts. An aggressive lead turn is the last thing you want to do vs a spit IMO...for a number of reasons. 1st and foremost can you actually beat a good stick in a spitfire in an all in angles dueling merge? You yourself have pointed out that the spit has the edge...further if you go for the aggressive lead and he flies a disguised E opener you have both the possibility of either scrubbing to much E or actually giving him an overshoot option on the merge (literally flying out in front of him). The F6F never loses its advantages (and neither does the spitty). What will change is the application of BFM specific to circumstance. IMO the worst position I'm in is at the merge, it's the only time where I'm forced to guess. Once we've merged I now know where I stand. It's like a poker player in holdem, the better the player the less inclined to push a race. If I'm pushing money in a pot I don't want to be guessing if I'm 52/48 or something similar, I want 4/1 or better on my money...
So to me I'm very content to fly a read and react merge knowing that the merge isn't going to get me killed and it won't win the fight, what it will do is shape the fight to come. Now this can be mis interrupted quite badly in that a bad merge can loose a fight but a perfect merge won't always win one. As for your comments on "controlling" the fight thats not entirely correct at all. It's very very hard to control a fight vs a good pilot in anything. As per your example the spit driver has a very minimal opportunity to turn with me or zoom with me or even get a glimpse of the back end of my plane if he is passive...his option is to loiter or run...but to kill me he has to fight me and if he fights me he either wins or dies....anything less then a total commitment to victory will more often then not get him killed.
Do me a favor and review the clip with Shawk and the 2nd fight with grmrpr and outline what you see as the mistakes they made and how you'd do it differently. Further take a look at the film of slap and I. This is an A-20 vs an FM-2 in an on the deck "dueling merge". Look at how the same patterns of flight transfer to the 1st two fights. I bet you see tremendous furballing in grizz's 152 clip...good pilots can fight any plane in any way within a certain limit. That limit is far beyond what some consider possible. The common denominator in the fight with the c-hog and the pony is order to get them in front of me I 1st had to get them behind me. So your hypothetical spit driver is simply another guy that I need to transition from behind to in front. The more focused he is on keeping his advantage the easier that is to do...feel free to look me up any time your on, i'd be happy to show you what i mean.
I just read your comments on shawk fight.
1) he went for an aggressive lead turn...just like U said...fight was over then. 2) he didn't go for a scissor he went for a shot...same as you would. 3) once the shot missed he was dead again, this is an induced overshoot that allows very poor surivival...he felt his best option was to try and float the bird up (I agree). Functionally the simple reality is that he missed the shot he selected. This is the same reality in any fight of this nature. so the 1st issue you really have is in not understanding the cause and effect at work. In effect he died using exactly the same tactics your outlining...your simply assuming you'd do it differently.
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1) he went for an aggressive lead turn...just like U said...fight was over then. 2) he didn't go for a scissor he went for a shot...same as you would. 3) once the shot missed he was dead again, this is an induced overshoot that allows very poor surivival...he felt his best option was to try and float the bird up (I agree). Functionally the simple reality is that he missed the shot he selected. This is the same reality in any fight of this nature. so the 1st issue you really have is in not understanding the cause and effect at work. In effect he died using exactly the same tactics your outlining...your simply assuming you'd do it differently.
I'm saying I'd fly the way YOU did, not the way SHawk did.
1) "Aggressive lead turn" to me means climbing lead turn, not a flat turn. He blew his E while losing angles at the same time.
2) He went for the shot when you climbed past him yes. Maybe I would do this, maybe not. I'm not sure, it depends on what I'm seeing. Thing is, the fight would have evolved completely differently with me. I also quite often do the barrel roll-ish reversal that you do when I outzoom somebody.
3) Once he missed the shot, he turned INTO your guns (twice). That's what I mean by "he tried to scissor." If I were in that situation, knowing I have a power and probably turn RATE advantage, I would have continued the turn instead of reversing it (twice), only rolling level to pull up if you go for the shot.
These are the exact types of mistakes that I'm looking for if I'm the F6F driver flying against a Spit (or A20 flying against a CHog). These are the exact types of mistakes that I know the Spit needs to make for me to win.
Edit: but any advice I give would not try to rely on my opponent's mistakes. That would end up being a TOME on ACM. If somebody asked me how to capitalize on mistakes, I'd probably steer them towards an authoritative source like Shaw or a bunch of ACM articles.
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Just watched the film. It's hilarious that you only convinced him to get ride of one of his two drop tanks before you blasted him. :lol
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To be honest I have no idea how you fly or "what you do". Shawk is a very technically sound pilot, without a doubt there was a complacency issue. Going beyond that how he (or you) chooses to engage is beyond my control and really not relevant to the outcome. That does not mean I'm going to win every fight or even control them...but that each fight will evolve in a chain of cause and effect. The better pilot will win a majority of fights because he will make better decisions relative to the other guy a majority of the time. Under circumstances like the one here I greatly benefit from both his complacency and lack of knowledge about the A-20 and how I fly it. The flip side is that the A-20 (as much as I love it) is a total dog. It has a top end speed of less then 450 and is subject to structural failure under load from about 370 mph up. It is a barge if slow and actually is far far inferior to the hog at low speed.
So lets actually look at the fight....1st Shawk is simply looking for a shot. He kills an awful lot of people who make the mistake you did that he flew a bad merge...in fact the counter you suggest would just make you another victim. This is no different then a "flat" 109 merge...it's a low to high high aspect guns merge...he's looking for a 1 timer here IMO. He's looking to pop up thru the counter...remember anything inside 800 yds vs a slow manuevering bogey is golden to a guy like him....so at 19 sec I read and react and go out of plane in the vertical. At 20 seconds I determine I'm a dead man flying...so I'm off the gas. I need to change my lift vector and get down and inside...he's speeding up and I'm topping out...anything along the lines you seem to propose and you die here....all the time, every time. 24 sec and I'm off the gas pulling over driving to get inside of his potential options. In effect I'm flying to his donut since he's not bringing it to me.
At 27 seconds I'm 90 degree out of plane with my lift vector in lag and managing my throttle, all elements of managing closure. These are all very important later when you look at how close the shot window is later. It's important to realize that I conceded the shot window at 19 sec as inevitable...all this is happening in a read and react merge well before the real action. Most fights are determined in the 1st 5 seconds IF you can't alter the outcome. At 33 sec I've transitioned from out of plane lag to in plane lead....on my way back to out of plane lag. The combination of being out of plane and tightening up my lift vector takes any chance for him to pull lead and creates this compressed window as I fall back into plane...I can't pull lead either and let the nose fall off. At this point I've got both angular advantage and parity in E state based on the decisions above...trying to keep speed would have just killed me. Notice how aggressive Shawk is here...he's not only defending a perceived shot but reversing for an overshoot...had I tried to keep lead and bled E he's have killed me here also. Take a look at his shot at 44 sec...thats how close this was. Then look at my shot window....everything your saying he "did wrong" is just about 100% the best option he had. The truth is he'll win that fight most of the time since I have no margin for error at all there.
Basically what you have is a forced rolling scissor...once I read ,react chop and roll into him at 19 sec we have the scissor at 33 seconds and neither of us can stop it. I manage that one time to work a lesser shot window to a slightly better one. Thats the simple reality that you or any spit driver faces vs any good p-47, hog or F6F driver...you may kill us but only on our terms. In fact i'd guess that shawk was looking for the rolling scissor as well...just as most hig drivers would
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Look, I'd love to keep discussing this with you... but you have a problem here:
1) You have no idea what I would do in a similar situation. You are also misreading my meaning. Therefore there is no point you telling me that I am wrong or that what I have suggested is in any way wrong. Our discussion is completely mismatched at this point. There is no debate to speak of.
We are just throwing words at each other, and you (it seems like to me) are putting words into my mouth about what I would or would not do, despite you saying you have no idea what I would do.
I have no idea if you are doing it due to misreading me or you are trying to "win" an argument that neither of us is really losing.
2) Edit: never mind about time stamps.
Anyways, this is what I see (again)...
1) On the merge he goes for a high vs low aspect merge (first mistake). If I'm flying, I want to be in YOUR position (A20). The first shot you have (not a good shot) when you are nose low and he is nose high climbing is what I'm saying a Hellcat driver should go for if he thinks the Spit 16 driver is good.
2) You overshoot him and he gets a shot. At this point you are both in a vertical scissors, which is what YOU want, given your stability at low speeds and the fact that you can't possibly beat him in a turn-rate fight. A vertical scissors after all is still a nose-nose turn radius fight.
3) Taking the shot looks like a mistake, as he has to pull nose high to get lead on you whereas you are already in zoom mode, plus you have better slow stability.
4) Once he misses the shot, you top out above him and do a barrel roll to get behind him. This is the pretty much the exact same move I would do flying the A20.
5) After you finish the barrel roll, you have his rear aspect, but he is turning away from you.
6) Instead of continuing to turn away from you (resulting in a turn rate fight where the CHog's extra power and fighter-nature would make the difference), he chooses to reverse into you going for a shot/scissors. This is a mistake because it yields you (the A20) a shot where no reversal would have denied any shot opportunity completely.
7) He crosses your nose, you don't get a good shot. Once again, he has a chance here to convert to a turn rate fight.
8) Instead of doing the safe thing, he reverses aggressively once again trying for the shot. But at this point, he is significantly faster than you, and thus LOSING the turn radius fight big time (you are in a scissors at this point). This is final mistake which allows you to get the shot and kill him.
9) Edit: Something I just saw. Instead of reversing flat, he could have done a lag barrel roll to get your six which would be more conservative than the flat reversal but more aggressive than continuing a turn rate fight.
To conclude, how YOU flew the fight is how I envision myself flying it, almost exactly. It's actually eerily similar to some of the fights I've had. It's also how I envision an F6F flying against a Spit who makes the same mistakes that SHawk did here.
Edit: Basically my recommendation would be to fly the merge like you did and take the first shot while trying to gauge the other pilot's skill. Since he did yield the merge, I would probably continue in the fight as you did.
However, if somehow I judged the other pilot much better than me, I would take the first shot (A20 nose low, CHog nose high) and extend if I missed.
Edit: I make strictly sure to differentiate a "Rolling Scissors" and a "Vertical Scissors". The first is a turn rate fight whereas the second is a turn radius fight. The first has a barrel-like flight path, the second does not.
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From what I gather the "problem" is that you appear to be clueless. the only purpose this forum has is to help others. Just like the TA the problem is bad advise is worse then no advise. As I stated his merge was not only 100% correct but it was the only correct merge he could fly if he wanted to press home the engagement. Any "high aspect" merge there would get him killed in 30 seconds or less. His merge correctly gave him angular parity and the nose low configuration added E....this is a sound -E merge vs a plane with inferior performance but superior position. At no time do I actually overshoot in the true sense, I'm dropping into the scissor and he's climbing into it...which is very unusual. He is managing a completely different set of variables. As I pull into lead I am behind but faster then I want with no ability to stabilize an AOT. Normal doctrine calls for a break 90 degrees away from the bogies lift vector but he is already creating that variable so I can zoom. This is a continuation of the angular advantage he gained on the initial merge so in effect I am still ahead of him but out of the cone of movement dictated by his lift vector (barely). This creates a very unusual type of overshoot after his shot....as an FYI I never have any early shot or even try and pull the trigger. As a general rule that involves either freezing the nose or chasing...if flown correctly an out of plane lag to in plane lead transition generates a natural shot window (see nikki/p40 clip).
Your comments on what he "did wrong" are laughably incorrect and delusional IMO. Feel free to post a few clips here to change my mind...i'll gladly admit if i'm wrong...but based on your comments your going to hurt folks a lot more then help them.
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From what I gather the "problem" is that you appear to be clueless.
It's only what you read into it. You appear to be clueless about what I'm saying. You seem to be intentionally reading "noob" into my statements. I do in fact know what lag/lead/pure, in plane, out of plane etc mean. Yet somehow you stated that E state is irrelevant for a turn radius fight??? When the textbook counter to a scissors is a high yo yo which requires a superior E state.
Your comments on what he "did wrong" are laughably incorrect and delusional IMO. Feel free to post a few clips here to change my mind...i'll gladly admit if i'm wrong...but based on your comments your going to hurt folks a lot more then help them.
I'll admit if I'm wrong on the merge (as I may very well be). Note he could have overflown you and spiral climbed to make use of his climb advantage, but being aggressive and seeing a supposedly defenseless A20, I guess he didn't. That's one alternate "merge". Also note that he did yield a shot opportunity, though a fleeting one before you committed a flight path overshoot underneath him. I'll admit if I'm wrong on the shot attempt he took on you. That one I can't really judge.
On the Scissor (parts 6-9)? Hell no, unless you show the A20 has a sustained turn rate advantage, in which case of course I'm wrong (my entire argument is based on the assumption the CHog has a better turn rate than the A20). How exactly would you have killed him if he had either forced a turn rate fight or gone with a barrel roll to gain your six? If you (A20) try to fight a nose-tail turn radius fight, he can roll level and pull vertical and adjust his geometry that way. The link I posted earlier to the Badboy thread has two good examples of this, and that is with MIRROR planes, not a mismatched fighter vs attack plane situation.
Let me break down why I think he should have barrel rolled you in step 8.
1) Displacement - he travels a longer distance than a straight scissor reversal thus controlling his horizontal forward motion.
2) Vertical maneuvering controls forward airspeed and thus closure and also controlling his horizontal forward motion.
3) Superior E state at the time of maneuver (50 mph) means you can't match the vertical part of his maneuver.
4) He just generated the horizontal separation he needed for it.
Remember - turn rate wins nose-tail fights, turn radius wins nose-nose fights. That's straight from other trainers' mouths. Link here as I posted before. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,271266.0.html
Again, I might be wrong on the merge. I don't know all sorts of merges, and I usually fly reactively as you mentioned. I don't go for all in merges unless I know I'll lose otherwise. And again, the shot SHawk took, I might be wrong on. That's an ambiguous situation for me.
Edit: merge - http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/acm-merge/acm-merge.htm
"Immelman beats a flat turn" with videos. I understand that he's higher than you at the time of merge. I would have dived pre-merge and pulled up into a lead turn Immelman (common advice from the trainers) or played it conservatively with a climbing spiral, trying to pull even higher than you (the A20) and converting that energy advantage into a saddle position as you flounder at the top. Note this approach may very well be "wrong" as well, but it uses the CHog's climb rate advantage and a spiral climb->vertical reversal is a standard tactic when you have a climb rate advantage.
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only way to solve this is to see you two guys go at it in a spit vs F6 fights. 3 fights with each of you in the spit. Film of course, and then bring the discussion back here. :D
Boomerlu, I don't think I've ever fought you, but from what I've seen on these boards and checking the score boards I have the feeling that you know a lot about "fighting" but have very little practice at it.
Humble on the other hand I have fought, and I know he not only knows what he's talking about, but can back it up with pretty much any plane in the list.
You may believe you know what your talking about, and on the surface you most likely do, but when it comes to putting that info into practice I think humble could teach you a few things that might not make sense on paper but work very well in the air. Understanding how something is done, is not the same as being able to do it.
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Well the thing is - we all agree in a CHog vs A20 fight, the CHog has to make mistakes for the A20 to win right? If the mistakes aren't the ones I pointed out, what were they?
Boomerlu, I don't think I've ever fought you, but from what I've seen on these boards and checking the score boards I have the feeling that you know a lot about "fighting" but have very little practice at it.
I have fought a number of good sticks and had a fair share of wins. I haven't been in a proper duel since I got knocked out of the dueling bracket by Manurin. I have the films - I was in the saddle in both F4U fights but couldn't make the shot connect.
I haven't flown a lot in the MA. Prior to joining JG11 I flew mostly DA to get quick practice. Since I joined, I've been busy and mostly flown squad nights, FSOs, and scenarios. That is why I lack any substantial score. In any case, MA score is hardly indicative of skill beyond a very general "he sucks or he doesn't".
Now I don't claim to be great, but we're discussing theory here after all. Where was SHawk's mistake? If what I pointed out was "delusional" as Humble says, what were the mistakes? This is rhetorical for the sake of this argument, but I also want to know. Humble won the fight; what were the mistakes? Tell me so I don't commit them.
And also, Humble first said...
1) he went for an aggressive lead turn...just like U said...fight was over then
Implying SHawk's merge was wrong...
Then later Humble says...
As I stated his merge was not only 100% correct but it was the only correct merge he could fly if he wanted to press home the engagement.
:headscratch: :headscratch: Which is it? Did SHawk blow the merge as Humble mentions in the first quote? Or was it 100% correct? This is also a rhetorical question, but I actually want to know.... which is it? How does a nose low turn maintain angular parity when
a) It increases turn radius?
b) It decreases turn rate because SHawk is over corner velocity?
Partly rhetorical again - but I also want to know in case I did miss something.
As for SHawk's decision to fly a scissors... refer the forum link and note that a CHog most likely has a turn rate advantage.
If he wants to go for a quicker kill, note he has a 50 mph speed advantage here! Use the vertical! Humble is down to about 100 mph and there's no way he could get a shot solution should SHawk go vertical. Remember SHawk is IN FRONT and 50 mph FASTER meaning he is losing the horizontal scissors.
Instead of going vertical with his energy advantage... he flies in front of Humble's guns. :headscratch:
Looks like a mistake to me.
Edits: a lot of adjustments.
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1st manny is a squaddie and a very fine stick, just getting on his 6 is an accomplishment for which you are to be commended.
I'm not trying to be harsh or condescending and apologize if I appear to have been. Let me try to restate what I'm saying.
1) Air combat is rarely absolute, this is especially true as pilot quality increases. You can view seemingly identical tactics yield opposite results until you examine the more "trivial" details involved.
2) Performance between dissimilar aircraft is similar or even functionally identical over a large percentage of the flight envelope. This allows a pilot in an "inferior" plane to maintain an even playing field or even gain a momentary advantage until his opponent can force the fight into a portion of the mutual flight envelope where a distinct advantage is possible. Keeping just these 2 points in mind let me try and answer your points above...
So 1st and foremost I'm reading "noob" correctly or incorrectly based on the absoluteness of your comments. I've never seen anyone fly a perfect fight, the reality is that the person who minimizes mistakes generally wins. Lets review the clip. It's not really correct for me to speak for Shawk but I think it's wrong to assume he just flew stupid given his impressive track record of overall success. This is my speculation and is consistent with what I tought here as a trainer specific to neg E merges.
From the film we see that I am both lower and faster. I think Shawk probably assumed I was at least slightly "+E". Trying force a classic "rocketman" merge opens up a lot of possibilities...mostly bad, especially given his sustained performance advantage. By countering my merge the way he did he gains both an angular advantage and some additional E. While he ends the 1st half circle 2,000 feet lower he is 100+ mph faster. Given his firepower and sustained climb advantage he can now force the fight up...in effect he's giving me a rope with the clear belief that he can either carry enough E to make the shot or stabilize close enough to secure a lasting advantage ( a judgement I quickly concurred with). Had he attempted an E opener from a -E -alt position I'd have probably caught him...so he either refuses the merge and blows on by to reset or he does what he did. Now let me explain my comment about the merge. both Shawk and I have a similar mentality, he is forcing a fight...just like I would in his place. 90% of the time that tactic will win, the other 10% it's at risk. By doing what he did he placed the fight squarely in our common flight envelope...as long as I reacted by compressing the fight back down into him...had I tried to take the fight up it would have shifted to his portion of the flight envelope as I transitioned to more of my sustained climb rate.
My mistake in Managing my excess E was less then his in carrying to much E up for to long vs setting up more of a true vertical two circle fight. The reality is that he expects to win that vertical rolling scissor just as much as I did, the mistake is in accepting an even odds match up. So the answer is he flew a very good merge that was countered and accepted a fight that occurred in the mutual flight envelope. Once he see's me roll over he can simply split-s and extend to a speed beyond my capability. Once the scissor actually starts I'm functionally in his donut hole at the moment I transition back to lag. Theoretically it is impossible for him to generate a shot on me from that position since his lift vector wont allow it...basically the more he turns the shorter the vector is so the less total energy he has left. So the end result is we wash back to that position but with me more stabilized with regard to AOT. Now my opinion is that since we are within the mutual overlap in flight envelope at 33/34 sec it didnt matter if he did the "curly cue" or not. He can't maneuver beyond my capabilities quickly enough to avoid me pulling lead unless he does something radical...if I hose my own lift vector I then push the fight to where he does have the edge and die...by "floating" I maximize my lift vector and maintain relative position when all is said and done. At that point climb, roll and control surface authority are all in his favor. Any type of flat or nose down turn is in mine since we are in a common area of the flight envelope and he can't outrun my guns. So taking the fight up and forcing me to roll with him is the best option he has at that point...in fact it was his only viable option. If I pop his oil instead of lighting him up then I have to climb into and thru him...given his sustained performance advantage he probably wins the fight.
I probably fly some of the better vertical scissors in the game and the key is amplitude....the guy who flys the farthest while going forward the least amount wins, so turn rate is not in my opinion the deciding factor. Lets review your comments on going up. At 55 sec I've stabilized nose nose down and in lag. Shawk is above and in my right front quarter at less then 200...if he continues up I do not see how he avoids giving me a shot, at 56 seconds I've rolled more in plane and under range is just over 200 and speed differential is pretty stable as I move to his blind spot. At 57 sec he cant see me...can he avoid the shot by hanging the prop...I don't think he could and neither does he. He's trying to do exactly what you mentioned right up till he see's me begin to disappear into his blind spot.
My issue here is pretty simple, your presenting a bunch of theoretical solutions that take both sides. You'd fly my fight but Shawk "should" have won. My take is completely different, there are no absolutes in air combat and each individual pilot can meld position and intent to create almost limitless possibilities. Your ability to generate a potential winning solution is limited only by your imagination and sense of aggression. Everything your saying is factually correct but relies on moving the fight into a portion of the flight envelope that is advantageous to you. Basically it boils down to I'll fly to the strength of my plane and you can't beat me. My take is that your plane is gonna have to overcome my imagination and determination to kill you. This is a fundamental argument, plane or pilot...at no point in any of those clips do I allow the fight to move to a portion of the flight envelope that precludes the possibility of success. Does it happen to me, all the time. But those pilots who can manipulate me in that way do so regardless of plane type a vast majority of the time.
So my response is that simple, all your saying is fiction until you can force it on the other guy against his will. I'll leave you with a final clip for now. This is an interesting match up between me and Spatula where neither of us can force the fight we want. The fights you remember for a long time and only can find a few times a year...
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/funwithkitchen%20utensils.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/funwithkitchen%20utensils.ahf)
I'm pretty sure I've got spatula's clip as well so I'll look for it....fun to see it from both sides...
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I'm pretty sure I've got spatula's clip as well so I'll look for it....fun to see it from both sides...
Here it is, if you cant find it Humble.
http://www.major.geek.nz/AKUAG/TheVault_Files/FilmDetails.aspx?name=spat_humble.zip
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1) Air combat is rarely absolute, this is especially true as pilot quality increases. You can view seemingly identical tactics yield opposite results until you examine the more "trivial" details involved.
...
So 1st and foremost I'm reading "noob" correctly or incorrectly based on the absoluteness of your comments. I've never seen anyone fly a perfect fight, the reality is that the person who minimizes mistakes generally wins.
The reason I'm dealing with absolutes (i.e., "no mistakes") is that if I don't... then the whole thing becomes a mess that you can't analyze. Because there are so many possibilities in every situation and multiple counters...
I HAVE a set of moves/behavioral pattern that will work and I know how to capitalize on mistakes. I don't ever fly into a fight expecting these mistakes to occur, I take them as they occur.
In this mindset, I'm going for the first shot as the F6F and disengaging unless I see a tell (which we've discussed before) for lower skill or a mistake. Maybe I'm wrong assuming my opponent will not make a mistake until I see the first one... maybe that mindset keeps me from getting as many kills as I could. You'd be the first to point it out, so maybe I'll change that mindset. I will have to see how it works out.
The thing is though - when I fly into the fight, I know exactly where my advantages are. I fly towards them. It's just that in the specific F6F case, my risk is much larger flying "all in" because of the Spit's E-building ability and turn rate.
Essentially, there's no "answer" for how to beat a Spit16 in an F6F. The best return/risk ratio that I could see is doing the Immelman lead turn merge (as many many people don't realize how good it is), then disengaging.
It's not an absolute answer, but it's the best return/risk UNTIL you have further information on your opponent's skill. Maybe I should have qualified my statements with that.
2) Performance between dissimilar aircraft is similar or even functionally identical over a large percentage of the flight envelope ... [rest edited out]
Yes I know exactly what you're talking about. It clearly shows on EM diagrams for example.
From the film we see that I am both lower and faster. I think Shawk probably assumed I was at least slightly "+E". Trying force a classic "rocketman" merge opens up a lot of possibilities...mostly bad, especially given his sustained performance advantage.
"Rocketman merge"? You're going to need to clarify.
By countering my merge the way he did he gains both an angular advantage and some additional E. While he ends the 1st half circle 2,000 feet lower he is 100+ mph faster. [...] By doing what he did he placed the fight squarely in our common flight envelope...as long as I reacted by compressing the fight back down into him...had I tried to take the fight up it would have shifted to his portion of the flight envelope as I transitioned to more of my sustained climb rate.
That makes a lot more sense. I believe I misjudged your relative E states in the start of the assessment - I thought you two were more Co-E.
Explain though - how did he generate more E by going into a dive? Dive increases airspeed which increases drag, not to mention he has to flat turn all the way around to point at you. It seems to me that he didn't so much gain E advantage as you lost it by maneuvering harder.
My mistake in Managing my excess E was less then his in carrying to much E up for to long vs setting up more of a true vertical two circle fight. The reality is that he expects to win that vertical rolling scissor just as much as I did, the mistake is in accepting an even odds match up.
That makes sense as well.
Once the scissor actually starts I'm functionally in his donut hole at the moment I transition back to lag. Theoretically it is impossible for him to generate a shot on me from that position since his lift vector wont allow it...basically the more he turns the shorter the vector is so the less total energy he has left. So the end result is we wash back to that position but with me more stabilized with regard to AOT
This is what I see as well, but I guess I'd put it in simpler terms. He can't pull for a shot, you have a control authority advantage at those speeds, so you do a lag roll to gain his tail.
Now my opinion is that since we are within the mutual overlap in flight envelope at 33/34 sec it didnt matter if he did the "curly cue" or not.
Curly cue?
He can't maneuver beyond my capabilities quickly enough to avoid me pulling lead unless he does something radical...if I hose my own lift vector I then push the fight to where he does have the edge and die...by "floating" I maximize my lift vector and maintain relative position when all is said and done. At that point climb, roll and control surface authority are all in his favor. Any type of flat or nose down turn is in mine since we are in a common area of the flight envelope and he can't outrun my guns.
I'm not sure what point of the film you're talking about here.
Here's what I see around 1:00-1:10.
As you pull onto his six, he break turns away. My guess here is that if he continues the break turn while you pull lead for the shot, your E state will be lower than his. He rolls and pulls out of plane, you blow your shot opportunity (not absolute, but from what I'm seeing, a safer course of action than cutting across the nose), then he continues to fight a turn rate fight, extending or going vertical as needed to adjust geometry.
Ok, next step of the fight, he has chosen to cut across your nose. At this point, the speeds are 113 you, 153 SHawk (1:06 timestamp) while you have 200 ft of altitude advantage.
At THIS point, how is it NOT a mistake to reverse his turn and cut across your nose? He's faster and in front, and thereby losing the scissors fight.
Three good options I see on SHawk's part
1) Extend, reset the fight.
2) Continue in a flat turn as in the previous step.
3) Go vertical to control his forward horizontal movement while cutting back towards you.
Is any of these WORSE than continuing in a scissors with you? When the A20 has the advantage in turn radius and stability at those speeds (I think) and he's too fast to prevent giving a momentary snapshot?
I probably fly some of the better vertical scissors in the game and the key is amplitude....the guy who flys the farthest while going forward the least amount wins, so turn rate is not in my opinion the deciding factor. [...]
No, I'm not saying turn rate is important in the vertical scissors. I never said that. So here we are, again you have misread my meaning. I'm saying at the point that he entered the HORIZONTAL scissors with you, he could have instead continued his flat turn and used his turn rate advantage. If you pull lead for the shot, he can pull out of plane. Note, giving you a shot through a continued flat turn is no worse than what he did, which is give you a shot through a flat turn reversal. That is the primary and most lethal mistake that I saw. You may be in his blind spot, but he also slowed down his turn and rolled back towards you, contributing to keeping you in his blind spot.
My issue here is pretty simple, your presenting a bunch of theoretical solutions that take both sides. You'd fly my fight but Shawk "should" have won.
It's simple as well - I would merge like you did. Seeing what you saw, I would have flown in the same manner. Your choice of maneuvers was logical given SHawk's choices (which were illogical to me).
Now, I defer on the merge and vertical scissoring portion. But after you gain his six, can you really say he didn't have a better option than to reverse across your nose? And after crossing your nose, can you really say he didn't have a better option than to reverse across your nose AGAIN?
Note, I had to split up the message because of the max character length.
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My take is completely different, there are no absolutes in air combat and each individual pilot can meld position and intent to create almost limitless possibilities. Your ability to generate a potential winning solution is limited only by your imagination and sense of aggression. Everything your saying is factually correct but relies on moving the fight into a portion of the flight envelope that is advantageous to you. Basically it boils down to I'll fly to the strength of my plane and you can't beat me. My take is that your plane is gonna have to overcome my imagination and determination to kill you. This is a fundamental argument, plane or pilot...at no point in any of those clips do I allow the fight to move to a portion of the flight envelope that precludes the possibility of success.
As you said before, SHawk's mistake was accepting a vertical scissors fight on even odds. But that is a CHOICE, and that is PSYCHOLOGY, not ACM. It may be important to the fight, but it has nothing to do with the best choice at each step, which is what I'm presenting.
So my response is that simple, all your saying is fiction until you can force it on the other guy against his will.
Again, we differ in philosophy. I start out saying "I can't rely on my opponent making a mistake." You start out saying "I will force my opponent to make a mistake." But in the end, when we see those mistakes, we both go for them. Since we're talking about a Co-E 1v1 fight and neither fighter starts out with a positional advantage, it's rare you can truly "force" your opponent to do anything. That entails setting up a situation where he does what you want or he dies and if you're at that point, you've already won the fight in the first place.
Thing is, if I have a sound and working logical knowledge of ACM (that is I know the proper move at every step given the planes), you most likely won't be able to force your fight on me. Yes it's theoretical now, but from what I've observed about the way I fly, I most often don't fall for bait. If I know what's going on ACM wise, I see the bait. If I see the bait, I either refuse it, or take it knowingly, accepting the risk involved. Very rarely does it blindside me in 1v1 fights. If I don't know the correct ACM choices, then of course I'm liable to take the bait.
That is why my mindset assumes my opponent flies without mistakes until shown otherwise. Because if I've thoroughly learned my ACM (both by the book and practically), I wouldn't be induced into a mistake myself. That's why I've emphasized the absolutes here. In most cases, it's the pilot not the plane, but if both pilots are perfect, then it's the plane now isn't it? That's the crux of the question "How do I beat X with Y?"
How else can you answer that in any degree of detail without making some very strong assumptions (like my assumption of both flying perfectly)? Either you end up DRASTICALLY oversimplifying but making a strong assumption anyways (Immelman merge, watch for him to commit to a scissor fight, then use your turn radius advantage - note how you assume that he makes the mistake of commiting to a scissor fight?), or you end up with something SO COMPLEX you cannot possibly explain it (well if he does this, I do this, if he does that... etc etc, but there are infinite "ifs").
Hey maybe, you do have a good answer. I'm not a trainer, I don't regularly try to explain these things. But from where I'm sitting, any explanation along the lines of "fly to your advantages" basically assumes that your opponent makes the mistake of letting you do so (e.g., he enters a turn radius fight with your tighter turning plane) which is just as strong of an assumption as the one I made.
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boomerlu,
I'll try and respond to that parts that may help others here a bit, beyond that it's simple a question of applying the gneralities to the specific's at hand. I think you summed it up yourself when you said you got on Manny's 6 but couldn't convert. Thats very typical vs a very good stick (which he is)...the truth is most really good fights just break down to a series of end game reversals that hang in the balance.
Everything I posted here with the exception of the clip with spatula (TY very much for posting the other half Spat :salute :aok) is specific to both out of plane flying and lift vector management in a non dueling environment. The entire F6F/spitfire element is an offshoot. I'll try and illustrate my comments using a different clip (actually two). 1st lets look at the "duel" with slap, this starts off with a true dueling merge. Slap is without a doubt a better dueler then I am and the FM-2 is "his ride" yet that clip shows that the A-20 can "furball" and force him into the role of an E fighter. This is very similar to what you could do in a hog, 152, P40, P47etc...which is why you see so many of the better sticks successfully fur ball them.
In the end all fights are lost not won, that is the simple reality of air combat. I'll go back to your comments on Manny and correlate them to my earlier ones. From your comment you achieved a "winning position" on Manny in both fights, yet he won both of them. Trace this back to my comment and Marks (Skyrock) earlier in this thread, both of us have no problem giving our 6 to a superior plane...in fact I'd say both of us get rather impatient waiting for the "smart" pilot to just hurry up and close in so we can get down to the business of killing them.
Here is a clip that illustrates my point of view on this. Again its an exceptional pilot who more often then not will beat me. Here he has the advantage and actually is out looking for me because we had the discussion on the BBS that I've never lost a 1 on 1 in the MA vs a mossie in the A-20. Without question M00t did everything "right" so the only left for me to do is attempt to manage relative plane and lift vector. As a trainer (again speaking past tense) it gets very hard very quickly with a good student. You start "intermediate training" from exactly the point that your at information wise, at some point you the trainer get pressed to open up the bag of "pilot tricks" and the progression to "vodoo ACM" begins. Obtaining a winning position doesn't mean the fight is over and the more experienced the pilot the more capable he is at defending the end game, we've got 3 guys in 71 squadron who can spot me there 6 at 1000 and beat me 50%+ of the time...
From both your comments here and your result with Manny I'd say your grasp at the macro level is very sound but your application at crunch time is still developing. :salute
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/A-20vsMossie.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/A-20/A-20vsMossie.ahf)
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Here it is, if you cant find it Humble.
http://www.major.geek.nz/AKUAG/TheVault_Files/FilmDetails.aspx?name=spat_humble.zip
:aok :aok :salute
Thanks, I need to copy that again, fun fun fight....
Just watched that again from your end...got to love the F-20, dog that she is :rock
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I certainly didn't mean to take over this thread, let me recap what my original points were and then I'll let it go....as always if you see me up feel free to ask anytime if you want to explore some of this a bit farther. As always my comments reflect a particular point of view with regard to overall ACM and should be counter balanced with contrasting viewpoints to find the "personality" that works for you. We all know that each plane has a somewhat unique performance profile with certain planes having seemingly insurmountable advantages. Yet we often see pilots have sustained and continuous success with the "lesser" rides, often from positions of apparent inferiority. How and why is this possible and what can the "average" pilot aspiring to improve take from this?
The primary lesson here (again my opinion) is simply an understanding that the "inferior" plane isn't inferior all the time. That within a surprisingly broad portion of the flight envelope its on an equal footing. The pilot in the inferior plane has to attempt to push the fight before it migrates away from this window of equality and en devour to keep it within the confines of this overlap. The secret lies in the understanding that the management of relative lift vectors negate any perceived advantage the other pilot thinks he has and pushes the fight squarely into a battle of ACM "X's & O's" independent of any potential performance advantantage on either side...in other words the fight is squarely centered inside the combatants overlapping "doghouse" charts. Here is this twilight zone of ACM the P40B is the clear equal of the spit XVI (or nikki)....take a look at spatulas view of our fight and tell me you can see any real difference in performance between my A-20 and (fill in the blank). It looks like a fighter, acts like a fighter and flies like a fighter because within that overlapping grey zone it is every bit a fighter. Looking at the film you can see how hard I'm pressing to keep the fight in that "grey zone" as long as I can.
Stealing Brookes line from the old Air Warrior training manual "I am above the unwashed masses and below the gods". None of this is absolute and I certainly am far from the ranks of the "uber sticks". The goal is here is to impart what is really intermediate level knowledge in a way that will allow you to fly whatever plane you chose with a measure of confidence and success that enhances your overall enjoyment of the game :salute