Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: twitchy on November 13, 2009, 01:13:36 PM
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I'm not as up on WWI aircraft as I'd like to be, but there was a fighter that had a single wing design in WWI, I think it might have been a french plane but I'm not sure, anybody know the one I'm talking about?
-Twitchy
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There was the Fokker Eindecker, an early war German monoplane, also the Fokker DVIII was a high wing late war monoplane. There were probably others as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_Eindecker
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_D.VIII
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There was the Eindecker, an early war German monoplane, also the Fokker DVIII was a high wing late war monoplane. There were probably others as well.
(http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/guns/fokker-eindecker.jpg)
Holy Cow, that one looks dangerous... to the pilot. lol
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(http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/weapons/guns/fokker-eindecker.jpg)
Holy Cow, that one looks dangerous... to the pilot. lol
It was the first plane to have the synchronizer gear to allow shooting through the prop arc.
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The Morane parasol fighter, the Bleriot, the Bristol M1, and the Pfalz Eindecker were also single-winged WWI aircraft (though not all effective fighters)
Bristol M.1
(http://www.military-aircraft.org.uk/ww1-fighter-planes/bristol-m1c-fighter.jpg)
Morane Parasol
(http://www.jasta11.co.uk/USERIMAGES/Morane%20Parasol.JPG)
Bleriot
(http://www.raf.mod.uk/downloads/wallpapers/1914_1916/bleriot1024.jpg)
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nice pics, I'm always glad to see the cocarde in plane pictures anyway :)
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Ah Ha, I think the Bristol was the one I was thinking of, thanks!
I remember reading that some of the earliest dog fights literally involved bricks and chains... man, that would be a cool in-game weapon set, throwing a brick through a filthy bishrook's wing would be priceless entertainment lol.
Jesus can you imagine trying to lob a brick while keeping that thing in a turn fight?
-Twitchy
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Also Morane Bullet.
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Holy Cow, that one looks dangerous... to the pilot. lol
You should see a cutaway of the construction of a WWI aircraft... it is unbelieveable that any of them lived.
(http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/collections/aircraft/aircraft_images/enlarged/f2bfighter.jpg)
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(http://media.carcrazycentral.com/data/Photo/carcrazy2_rad5118_large.jpg)
Don't know if it was ever used in WWI "1913 Deperdussin"
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You should see a cutaway of the construction of a WWI aircraft... it is unbelieveable that any of them lived.
(http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/collections/aircraft/aircraft_images/enlarged/f2bfighter.jpg)
The fabric and dope add quite a bit of strength though. They weren't quite as flimsy as the cut-away would suggest.
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These are in Owls Head Transportation Museum, Maine. This museum, drives and fly's everything in the museum. www.ohtm.org
1916 Royal Aircraft Factory F.E.8
(http://media.carcrazycentral.com/data/Photo/carcrazy2_rad5120_large.jpg)
1917 Fokker DR.1
(http://media.carcrazycentral.com/data/Photo/carcrazy2_rad511F_large.jpg)
1917 Nieuport 28C.1
(http://media.carcrazycentral.com/data/Photo/carcrazy2_rad511E_large.jpg)
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"The fabric and dope add quite a bit of strength though. They weren't quite as flimsy as the cut-away would suggest."
Especially the Bristol F2B Fighter. Good ol' 'Biff'. :salute
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I've always liked the look of the F.E.8.
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The fabric and dope add quite a bit of strength though. They weren't quite as flimsy as the cut-away would suggest.
Not enough strength to stop a machine gun bullet. The wicker basket seat or fuel tank the pilot sits on wouldn't stop it either. However, the rear gunner could be effective armour for the pilot. I have spent many hours looking at that particular aircraft in amazement at how brave those airmen were.
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I recall seeing a video of a guy who built a replica Foker Eindecker. Flew it and said afterwards that it was the scariest thing he'd ever flown. That it was horribly tail heavy and he had had to fight to keep the tail up the whole flight.
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Reading this whole thing is getting me way to exited! :x
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Here's the Ammo Bunker for the WWI early war...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2049/2523929879_8cb85e3ab9.jpg?v=0)
:rofl
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The Eindecker pretty much dominated the air war for about 7-8 months 1915/16 and Fokkers machine gun.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/50/Fokker_M5K-MG_E5-15.jpg/800px-Fokker_M5K-MG_E5-15.jpg)
"An early summer 1915 photo of Kurt Wintgens' Fokker M.5K/MG "E.5/15" Fokker Eindecker, that was the aircraft used by him on July 1, 1915 in the very first successful aerial engagement which involved a synchronized machine-gun-armed aircraft.
and a famous name :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Max_Immelmann_Fokker_EI.jpg)
flew it as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozkQKRDSNgc and parts 7,8 & 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB-gAQ0Kj10&feature=related
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....................(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee168/LostJohn2/Peanuts/animated%20gifs/snoopy-monoplane001.gif)
..................Rat tat tat tat tat tat !
:aok
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well the guns were about as primitive as the planes :) and the planes vibrated pretty good so you had to be REAL close to get hits and vs fabric the rifle rounds just passed right through. You had to hit "meat or metal" to do any good :eek:
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I have spent many hours looking at that particular aircraft in amazement at how brave those airmen were.
That's the God's honest truth. It's hard to imagine climbing into something so new and unknown as an early airplane. Think about it... When WW1 started, aviation was only about a decade old.
An amazing period of history, to say the least.
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These are in Owls Head Transportation Museum, Maine. This museum, drives and fly's everything in the museum. www.ohtm.org
1916 Royal Aircraft Factory F.E.8
(http://media.carcrazycentral.com/data/Photo/carcrazy2_rad5120_large.jpg)
1917 Fokker DR.1
(http://media.carcrazycentral.com/data/Photo/carcrazy2_rad511F_large.jpg)
1917 Nieuport 28C.1
(http://media.carcrazycentral.com/data/Photo/carcrazy2_rad511E_large.jpg)
cool to see someone mention Owl's Head. I live about an hour away. It's a great place
(They also have a good display of old cars aswell)
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That's the God's honest truth. It's hard to imagine climbing into something so new and unknown as an early airplane. Think about it... When WW1 started, aviation was only about a decade old.
An amazing period of history, to say the least.
It truly was. I remember a letter to Flying magazine many years ago, in which the author said something like this:
"I keep reading these accounts of World War I pilots flying at 15,000 feet, sometimes 20,000 feet, trying to take photos or shoot down the planes taking the photos. We have to go on oxygen at 10,000 feet [hey, I told you it was an old issue of the magazine]. Were these guys lying or did they have leather lungs?"
The answer posted by the magazine was, "They must have had leather lungs."
- oldman
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I am one of those lucky individuals that is on oxygen as of 8000 feet. :(
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I would recommend these two books if you want to stoke your interest further, both were famous 56 Squadron pilots: -
Saggitarius Rising by Cecil Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/SAGITTARIUS-RISING-Cecil-Lewis/dp/1848325193/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258190028&sr=8-1
Flying Fury: Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps by James McCudden (the most highly decorated pilot in the RFC/RAF during WWI)
http://www.amazon.com/FLYING-FURY-Years-Royal-Flying/dp/1935149105/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258190075&sr=1-1
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Eddie Rickenbacker's "Fighting The Flying Circus" is one of the best books I have ever read. (It's an autobiography)
It was/remains the inspiration of many pilots.
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I've been above 14k ft twice without O2 ascending Mt. Shasta. I would imagine that once you start doing it more frequently your body would produce more red blood cells to compensate, but boy does it make you dizzy the first time! :lol
FYI, some WW1 pilots did bring O2 at high altitude. The contraption I saw was for the D.VII where the poor guy had to wear a clip on his nose while holding a tube in his mouth. :eek:
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That's the God's honest truth. It's hard to imagine climbing into something so new and unknown as an early airplane. Think about it... When WW1 started, aviation was only about a decade old.
An amazing period of history, to say the least.
I read a story about a Canadian veteran of WWI who had died a few years back. He flew Camels. He NEVER flew again, either as a pilot or a passenger on any plane after his war years. I guess flying those canvas and dope kites with ropey engines kind of made him fearful of flying. He may have been biased because people were shooting at him as well. But there was a good reason why a lot of pilots were painted good luck symbols (swastikas were fairly common) on their places during this era. McCudden (one of the British empires best pilots in WWI) was killed when the engine of his SE5a conked out upon take-off and he died in the crash.
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McCudden (one of the British empires best pilots in WWI) was killed when the engine of his SE5a conked out upon take-off and he died in the crash.
He made the mistake of trying to turn back and land at the aerodrome he took off from after the engine siezed. All training told pilots to land straight ahead wherever they could in that situation. A real shame, he was probably the best and most influential leader the RAF had at the time. He was only 22, and had won pretty much every medal going.
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It truly was. I remember a letter to Flying magazine many years ago, in which the author said something like this:
"I keep reading these accounts of World War I pilots flying at 15,000 feet, sometimes 20,000 feet, trying to take photos or shoot down the planes taking the photos. We have to go on oxygen at 10,000 feet [hey, I told you it was an old issue of the magazine]. Were these guys lying or did they have leather lungs?"
The answer posted by the magazine was, "They must have had leather lungs."
- oldman
It is my opinion that the men who flew and fought in those early aircraft had other body parts that were made of leather - or perhaps brass . . . :D
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McCudden sometimes flew his personally adapted SE5a to over 20,000 feet to attack high-flying German recce two-seaters. Remarkable man, McCudden, he went from Boy Soldier to Major, VC and all the other gongs in those five years; the RAF lost a potential leader when he stalled in and died in 1918.
An interesting fact: McCudden had a hard time being accepted by 56 Squadron RFC. Although an ace, he'd scored all his victories until then as that great rarity, a Sergeant Pilot raised from the ranks - and the public school snob 'officers and gentlemen' didn't like that one bit.
Another: McCudden was almost certainly Manfred Richthofen's fifteenth 'kill'. On 27 December 1916 the Red Baron reported downing a 'Vickers two-seater' in the afternoon near Arras. No FE2 was lost that afternoon. The only possible aircraft he could have engaged was the DH2 of No.29 Squadron RFC flown by McCudden, who had disengaged, 'turned on my back and dived vertically in a slow spin and in this way regained our lines' after his Lewis had jammed in a fight with 'a HA'. Richthofen's 'kill' came down over the British side of the lines and was 'verified' by two AA batteries. Although McCudden reported the last thing he'd seen as he crossed the lines to safety was some FE2s being engaged by hostile machines, all those Fees returned safely. Richthofen had expected to be awarded the Pour le Merite after his eighth kill but the requirement had been upped to sixteen; maybe his 'throat-ache' desire for Germany's highest gallantry award affected his judgement that day? And he should be credited with only 79 kills and not the 80 that made him the highest-scoring pilot of WWI? This info is to be found in 'Under The Guns Of The Red Baron' by N.Franks, H.Gilbin and N.McCrery; 1995, Grub Street, London, ISBN 1-898697 27 2, pages 46-50.
:cool:
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Over-claiming was common in the heat of battle. As the war went on, it became pretty unsafe to follow a kill down and confirm for sure that it went down for good. There are a number of claims on Richthofen's record that don't jibe with official Entente losses in the area that he operated. I'm not singling Richthofen out, merely using him as an example of how even seasoned pilots made mistakes in claiming kills due to youthful exuberance and adrenaline.
As for the "Vickers" moniker; the Germans called all pushers Vickers, just like they often called all British single-seater tractor scouts "Sopwiths". When the Germans faced a lot of DH/2's, they often just called them "Vickers" (after the Vickers gunbus).
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The total kill tallies of the WW1 aces are generally dubious, on both sides too.
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An interesting fact: McCudden had a hard time being accepted by 56 Squadron RFC. Although an ace, he'd scored all his victories until then as that great rarity, a Sergeant Pilot raised from the ranks - and the public school snob 'officers and gentlemen' didn't like that one bit.
Where did you learn this? McCudden was invited to fly with 56 Squadron. If there was a snobby attitude towards him then he would never have been nominated for so many awards?
(BTW - i am not saying you are wrong, just intrigued to where you heard this)
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The total kill tallies of the WW1 aces are generally dubious, on both sides too.
Mannock often never bothered to submit claims, it is quite possible that he would have been the highest scoring WWI ace had he done. The opposite was Billy Bishop, who i have heard from the mouth of an expert that the vast vast majority of his claims were dubious. Whether that is true or not i don't know.
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Mannock seems to have been a very complicated man. I'd like to read more about him than the short article at wikipedia.
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Mannock seems to have been a very complicated man. I'd like to read more about him than the short article at wikipedia.
He never gained the public fame of Hawker, Ball or McCudden for some reason. From what i know, he had a very hard upbringing. He was an amazing flight leader and tutor, but was ruthless when it came to battle. I recall that once he found a German training flight, shot down the instructor, and then hunted down each of the students - i think he got something like 6 - 7 kills.
He would often share his kills with his flight, and as i mentioned above, not even bother to claim a lot of them. His worse fear was going down in flames and carried a revolver with him on patrol so he could 'end it', and this happened to him after he was brought down by ground-fire. He was regarded, along with McCudden, as the best flight leader the RAF had in the war.
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I've read several sources that say Lufbery could have had at least twice his final score (say 35+) had he actually claimed all his victories and gotten credit for ones shot down with witnesses on the German side of the lines. How much of that is truth and how much is post-war 'memory additions' by those involved, who can say, but I imagine there were others on both sides of the war who might have actually gotten more than history credits them with, not less. Too bad he's remembered for a defensive maneuver of dubious effectiveness that he neither invented noer ever advocated...
But I'm still a fan of Nungesser, even if it did start with a fondness for his personal insignia. :)
(http://www.tao-yin.com/baron-rouge/img/photos/nungesser-2.jpg)
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But I'm still a fan of Nungesser, even if it did start with a fondness for his personal insignia. :)
You and me both!
There is a great story about when Nungesser turned up at Escadrille N.65.
On the day that he reported to the Escadrille N.65, Nungesser first 'beat up' Nancy in a most spectacular fashion, flying in and out of church steeples and tall buildings, looping over the place and charging up and down the boulevard at an altitude of 30 feet. By the time he landed, an official complaint from the townsfolk had already been laid on the commanding officer's desk. The latter, somewhat acidly, told his newest recruit to continue his aerobatics to enemy territory. Nothing daunted, Nungesser had his aircraft refuelled and forced several of his colleagues to accompany him to the nearest German airfield where; covered by his comrades, he repeated his performance.
While he was a Hussar, he found a German staff car behind enemy lines, shot the occupants, stole it, drove it through no man's land (while under friendly fire) and they wanted to give him the car along with the Military Medal as a reward. He snubbed both and told them that the only prize he wanted was to join the air service.
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Why is no other aircraft but the N17 ever associated with Nungesser? Surely he must have moved on to the Spad at some point?
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Why is no other aircraft but the N17 ever associated with Nungesser? Surely he must have moved on to the Spad at some point?
The Nieuport was his personal aircraft. He pretty much had a roving commission and went where he wanted from what i have read, his posting to N.65 was just nominal.
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Another amazing pilot you may be interested in reading up on is Rudolf Von Eschwege, or the 'Eagle of the Aegean', he has an amazing story. So typical of the first world war. He was pretty much a one man, very determined, air force.
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The Nieuport was his personal aircraft. He pretty much had a roving commission and went where he wanted from what i have read, his posting to N.65 was just nominal.
Sure, but the N17 was obsolescent by the end of the war. Surely he wasn't still flying it in 1918?
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Sure, but the N17 was obsolescent by the end of the war. Surely he wasn't still flying it in 1918?
IIRC it was pretty heavily modified. The N.17 was Ball's favourite and personal aircraft too, AFAIK he would go out lonesharking in it while assigned to 56 in the SE.
<Edit> Almost forgot, Nungesser spent a long, long time in and out of hospital towards the end of the war, i don't know a huge amount about him, but i don't think he did much flying in the last year or so of the war. I could be wrong.
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He did have a SPAD, but he wasn't as fond of it as he was the Nieuport. He was a man who preferred maneuverability over speed.
(http://i42.servimg.com/u/f42/11/02/34/41/1014.jpg)
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Quite a few pilots of all sides were killed simply by structural failures. Remember no chutes back in those days.
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IIRC it was pretty heavily modified. The N.17 was Ball's favourite and personal aircraft too, AFAIK he would go out lonesharking in it while assigned to 56 in the SE.
<Edit> Almost forgot, Nungesser spent a long, long time in and out of hospital towards the end of the war, i don't know a huge amount about him, but i don't think he did much flying in the last year or so of the war. I could be wrong.
He had at least one injury that broke both of his legs, and he is reported to have needed help getting in an out of the cockpit afterward.
If RoF is any way to judge, the roll-rate of the N17 would have been a big liability by 1917.
Quite a few pilots of all sides were killed simply by structural failures. Remember no chutes back in those days.
Balloon observers were equipped with chutes, and the German air force used them in 1918.
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Nice find treize!
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He had at least one injury that broke both of his legs, and he is reported to have needed help getting in an out of the cockpit afterward.
Found an article about him in a book i have: -
In January 1916 Nungesser was the victim of a serious accident while testing a new aeroplane. The joystick went through his mouth, dislocating his jaw and perforating his palate; in addition both of his legs were broken. Yet within two months he was flying again, although he could only move to and from his aircraft on crutches. Throughout April, Nungesser had to return to hospital for periodic treatment of his injuries. But while he was flying, fresh wounds accumulated. His lip was slashed by an explosive bullet; his jaw was again broken when he inverted a damaged aircraft making a forced landing; and in another crash in no man's land, he dislocated his knee. In December he had to return to hospital to have all of his fractures broken and reset, and was forced to take a two month rest.
Nungesser's return, in a period when Allied opposition was frail, and sometimes timid, was immediately noticed by the Germans. On 12 May a lone Albatros dropped a message challenging Nungesser to single combat that afternoon over Douai. Yet when he arrived at the appointed rendezvous, Nungesser found not one, but six of the enemy were waiting for him. But still he could not be killed; in the dog-fight that followed this betrayal, Nungesser shot down two of his enemy (Paul Schweizer and Ernst Bittorf) and the rest scattered.
His health continued to deteriorate. Now two mechanics had to carry Nungesser into his cockpit for he could no longer manage even with his crutches. Throughout August he flew and fought, but his strength was épuisé. Unlike Guynemer who was also on the threshold of nervous collapse, Nungesser allowed himself to be sent back to Paris on sick leave. On his flight home he was set on by a solitary Halberstadt. For over half an hour the two planes fought single-handed. Perhaps it was Nungesser's poor health, perhaps it was the exceptional skill of his opponent, but neither could gain the advantage. Finally, his fuel almost exhausted, Nungesser landed at Le Tourquet airfield and was surprised to see his adversary land and also taxi towards him. When the two were side by side, the German waved gleefully and took off again. Curiously, this sporting gesture was seen by Nungesser as a terrible humiliation and he was to spend hundreds of hours of his future flying life searching for that same Halberstadt so that he could retrieve his honour.
That Winter, Nungesser skidded his Mors touring car on the icy road while driving back from Paris in the middle of the night. The car overturned and Nungesser was thrown out, once again breaking his jaw as well as suffering other injuries. But his faithful mechanic, Soldat Pochon, who was responsible for all of Nungesser's aircraft, was trapped in the car and killed. Nungesser went back to hospital and for the remainder of the war his flying periods were punctuated by long spells in the care of doctors.
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"Mannock seems to have been a very complicated man. I'd like to read more about him than the short article at wikipedia."
Two good books on Mannock for you, Anaxogoras:
King of Air Fighters by Flight Lieutenant Ira 'Taffy' Jones, D.S.O., M.C., D.F.C., M.M.; 1934, Ivor Nicholson & Watson Ltd, London. Jones was a colourful character who flew with Mannock; his book was the first biography of Mannock to be published. It's a product of its times and some of the details are doubtful, but it captures the ' period atmosphere' of RFC/RAF service very well.
'Mick' - The Story Of Major Edward Mannock, V.C, D.S.O, M.C., R.F.C., R.A.F. by James M. Dudgeon; 1981, Robert Hale Ltd, London, ISBN 0 7090 5169 7. First paperback edition published 1993. This is a very good biography of Mannock, and his motivation and mental state is described in some depth.
:cool:
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Sure, but the N17 was obsolescent by the end of the war. Surely he wasn't still flying it in 1918?
He wasn't still flying a N17 in 1918; he was flying the later models like the Nieuport 17bis, Nieuport 25, etc.; he switched to a SPAD in August 1918. Even when he was posted to SPAD squadrons, he continued to fly a Nieuport up until he made his switch; he was given a roving commission where he basically flew with a squadron as a "guest" until he moved on to the next squadron.
I suspect he flew the Nieuport because he liked its maneuverability. He wasn't unique in this. Even when certain squadrons switched to the SPAD, some pilots were permitted, in some cases (like in N. 124), to continue flying Nieuports. Of course, not all squadrons were like this; you flew what you were given in most cases.
The RFC liked the Nieuports a lot and some squadrons continued to soldier on with them (armed with a single Lewis gun in a Foster mount) into 1918 until they were finally replaced with SE5a's.