Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Chalenge on November 18, 2009, 10:55:11 AM
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According to the pilots manual the P-51D carried ten (10) HVAR rockets when it didnt carry bombs also and six (6) rockets when it did carry bombs.
Also there were 110 gallon drop tanks possible which were used on the cross-Europe escort missions.
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Ordnance. It's Ordnance.
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Ordnance. It's Ordnance.
Thanks I knew you had a purpose in life.
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"According to the pilots manual the P-51D carried ten (10) HVAR rockets when it didnt carry bombs also and six (6) rockets when it did carry bombs."
Wot, no apostrophes?
;)
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IIRC, HVAR rockets weren't used all that often by Mustangs. Think they were primarily used by the Iwo P-51s, though Dan/CorkyJr could provide more detail.
ack-ack
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We've had this discussion before. The rockets were used a bit in the summer of 45 by the Iwo Mustangs. They always had to take DTs so they never had more then 3 rockets on each wing. Even on Korea where they were closer to the front, it was usually bombs and rockets or napalm and rockets, not 10 rockets.
Depending on it being metal or paper the DTs were metal 75, paper 108 or metal 110 gallon tanks. The 110 gallon tanks are more visible in MTO or PTO photos for what it's worth. The 108 gallon DTs show up more out of the ETO as they were British made.
Understand when the bombs were loaded, no DTs are. I've yet to see any photos of USAAF Mustangs in the ETO or MTO carrying rockets. The only ones I've seen are on the Iwo Mustangs
1000 pounder on an Iwo Mustang.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/1000lber.jpg)
The most heavily loaded Mustang I've ever seen in a WW2 photo. 2 P38 style DTs and 6 rockets. Again it's a really late in the war Iwo based 51.
Those are 165 gallon DTs.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Iwo51D.jpg)
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Wouldn't mind the 110 gal DT's. Would let me carry another 25% less fuel on my usual flights.
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Just because you dont have a photo of it doesnt mean it didnt happen. It IS specifically mentioned in the P-51 pilots manual after all.
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Just because you dont have a photo of it doesnt mean it didnt happen. It IS specifically mentioned in the P-51 pilots manual after all.
:banana:
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Just because you dont have a photo of it doesnt mean it didnt happen. It IS specifically mentioned in the P-51 pilots manual after all.
LOL, fair enough. What's the date on your 51 manual? Mine's dated after the USAAF became the USAF and is more geared to the 50's era. Understand that pilot's manuals were updated over time as things were adjusted or improved.
What a particular plane really did, vs what they could possibly do, is more important to me. Find me an image, a combat report or someone's memoirs from WW2 talking about carrying 10 rockets, and I'll support it in game. Until then, if it was up to me, I'd like HTC to go with what was done historically.
Of course it's not up to me :)
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USAAF Manual 51-127-5 page 43
... The P-51D series are equipped to carry ten 5-inch zero rail rockets five under each wing. Each rocket is supported at nose and tail...
Four of the rockets are installed close to the bomb racks. Consequently when bombs or droppable tanks are attached to the racks only six rockets can be carried three on each wing.
The same information is in the "P-51D Fighter Airplanes" text by North American Aviation Inc. (pg 137).
There are a lot of other interesting facts like the control reversal with a full fuselage tank (pg 67)... the self-destruct switch for the IFF (pg 34)... and the tail warning radar...
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For what it's worth, I'm not arguing the 51 couldn't carry a full load of rockets. I'm saying I've found no evidence it was ever carried that way operationally. Again this is because it was the Iwo Mustangs and they had to take DTs to make it to the Japanese homeland.
Check the date on your manual as well as if it's mentioning tail warning radar it's a late in the war update as that system showed up early 45 in the ETO and can again be seen on the Iwo Mustangs in mid to late 45.
And to reiterate outside of some RAF MTO Mustangs being fitted with the rocket rails similar to what the Tiffie carried, there is no documentation or photos showing a rocket rail installation on an ETO operational USAAF Mustang. The Iwo Mustangs got them in the summer of 45 which would have been after VE Day
It's the same with the 38s in the ETO MTO. Nothing in any Group history or photo showing rockets being used. It was 500 or 1000 pounders. Again very limited use of the rocket tree on the 38L in the PTO for a time during the operations over the Phillipines.
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Yes Im aware the pilots manual is August 1945 but the NAA text is a year earlier. I am also aware that looking for evidence in hindsight is not always possible.
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Yes Im aware the pilots manual is August 1945 but the NAA text is a year earlier. I am also aware that looking for evidence in hindsight is not always possible.
That I don't believe for a second. With all the unit histories, photos, Mustang information etc out there, if there is proof of 10 HVAR rockets loaded out for WW2 combat, you can find it. Again the Iwo birds appear to be the 51s that got rockets. And due to the range issues, they had to carry DTs meaning no more then 6
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I can show photos of Mossies with two DTs and eight rockets.... :P
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I am also aware that looking for evidence in hindsight is not always possible.
Hindsight is 20/20.
wrongway
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I too have read that 51s "could" carry 10 rockets. So I set out on a search to locate a picture or some kind of document stating proof. Never did find anything of that sort. Most of the time you will see one pylon per win and six zero length launchers.
Close up of six rockets and 38 style drop
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/P518.jpg)
Loaded 51
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/P51106.jpg)
But on the other hand...
(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-51/P-51ROCKETLAUNCH.gif)
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Well if it never did, P-51D should have its weapons options modified. It would be like a C205 carrying 500lb bombs under each wing.
Might love it, if you're a C2 fan, but frankly it neve happened, and shouldn't be in-game (if ya see what I mean).
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That I don't believe for a second. With all the unit histories, photos, Mustang information etc out there, if there is proof of 10 HVAR rockets loaded out for WW2 combat, you can find it. Again the Iwo birds appear to be the 51s that got rockets. And due to the range issues, they had to carry DTs meaning no more then 6
Sorry I cant agree with you. WWII was a completely different era than the one we live in and yes there were 'shutterbugs' but there was nothing like what we have today with a camera in every pocket and mounted to every wall. Yes a P-51D could have carried ten rockets and no one thought to take a picture for the later ages of would be doubters.
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Just because you dont have a photo of it doesnt mean it didnt happen. It IS specifically mentioned in the P-51 pilots manual after all.
Just because it says so in the manual doesn't mean it was done operationally. P-38s were capable of carrying rockets (early model P-38s equipped to carry bazooka rockets, later models HVAR) but operationally it was rarely done, if at all.
Just because a plane is designed to be able to carry something doesn't always mean it used them in reality. If there was a photo or AAR to be found that shows or tells of a Mustang carrying 10 HVAR rockets then Dan would have found it during his research and interviews with WW2 pilots. The fact that he says he can't find any evidence that details their use, I am inclined to believe his assertion that they weren't used in the ETO or MTO.
ack-ack
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Sorry I cant agree with you. WWII was a completely different era than the one we live in and yes there were 'shutterbugs' but there was nothing like what we have today with a camera in every pocket and mounted to every wall. Yes a P-51D could have carried ten rockets and no one thought to take a picture for the later ages of would be doubters.
But keep in mind that they had 'frag orders" too listing the weapons load out for every mission. Those are still around and most unit histories use them. One I have for the 428th FS, 474th FG has every mission, pilot, aircraft, and loadout listed in it. So if it happened, there is documentation out there.
Again, just because they could, didn't mean they did it.
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I too have read that 51s "could" carry 10 rockets. So I set out on a search to locate a picture or some kind of document stating proof. Never did find anything of that sort. Most of the time you will see one pylon per win and six zero length launchers.
Close up of six rockets and 38 style drop
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/P518.jpg)
Loaded 51
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/P51106.jpg)
But on the other hand...
(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-51/P-51ROCKETLAUNCH.gif)
Note that top photo is an Iwo Mustang. Seems like I posted that one before too :)
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Let's cut to the chase here... does this mean I can load Torpedo's on my P-38 and finally show those damned town buildings who's boss?
I even have the photo's to prove that the 38 could carry and release two torpedo's.
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Note that top photo is an Iwo Mustang. Seems like I posted that one before too :)
It may be the same plane, not enough detail or plane to make the call. Note the second photo has the rail setup...
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It may be the same plane, not enough detail or plane to make the call. Note the second photo has the rail setup...
Yep, but that's a late 50s early 60s South American used 51, Dominican AF I believe. There are many photos of Korean USAF 51s with both rockets and bombs or rockets and napalm. Not 10 rockets however.
As for that other photo, is I think you might have saved an image I posted before. They are both Iwo 51s. 78th FS, 15th FG. Not a complaint btw :)
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Let's cut to the chase here... does this mean I can load Torpedo's on my P-38 and finally show those damned town buildings who's boss?
I even have the photo's to prove that the 38 could carry and release two torpedo's.
I have similar pictures however I think they are all test bed situations no combat usage.
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Yep, but that's a late 50s early 60s South American used 51, Dominican AF I believe. There are many photos of Korean USAF 51s with both rockets and bombs or rockets and napalm. Not 10 rockets however.
As for that other photo, is I think you might have saved an image I posted before. They are both Iwo 51s. 78th FS, 15th FG. Not a complaint btw :)
I save ANY b and w photo of a 51 I can find!
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Yep, but that's a late 50s early 60s South American used 51, Dominican AF I believe.
Not 100% sure but I think that maybe a Yugoslav 51? Very similar markings to the units that flew desert B24's with USAF units during WWII.
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Not 100% sure but I think that maybe a Yugoslav 51? Very similar markings to the units that flew desert B24's with USAF units during WWII.
No, Dan is correct. The FAD (Fuerza Aérea Dominicana) and the roundel give it away as a P-51D the Dominicans had purchased from Sweden in the early 1950s.
ack-ack
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Wouldn't mind the 110 gal DT's. Would let me carry another 25% less fuel on my usual flights.
Wow. How much fuel do you take?
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I think he just wants to game the game, fly around with 25% internal fuel for 2 hours (using drop tanks) then fight in a much lighter fuel state than ever USAAF pilots did in the real war.
Perhaps he wants to pretend he's a spit pilot flying a P-51? :D
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I want this: -
(http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/aircraft-pictures/2008/10/10/typhoonlarge-thumb-800x486.jpg)
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Wouldn't you lose the 20 or so directly behind the prop, on startup? :lol
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Wouldn't you lose the 20 or so directly behind the prop, on startup? :lol
Not if they held on really tight but their hair would get messed up.
ack-ack
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Ahh.. the revolutionary "Plane Desant" method.
The Soviets would have loved it.
URA!
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Wait a sec.. I got the Typhoon manual around here somewhere and I remember it saying it could only haul 31 people to the pub. :cheers:
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I got a RAAF manual that tested the P-51 with 10 rockets, with photos. Any one intrested, PM me and I will e-mail them to ya.
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I got a RAAF manual that tested the P-51 with 10 rockets, with photos. Any one intrested, PM me and I will e-mail them to ya.
No one is questioning that it could be done. The issue is whether it was done operationally.
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As far as I know, and read, it really wasnt done operationaly.
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I sent you a PM but you could also cite the text here so I could buy a copy of the book or manual.
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I have similar pictures however I think they are all test bed situations no combat usage.
That is correct, it was tested but never deployed. I was half making a joke, and half making a point. :)
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That is correct, it was tested but never deployed. I was half making a joke, and half making a point. :)
Come on! Just admit you screwed up and move on! Women love that sort of stuff! :bolt:
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"their hair would get messed up"
Not with all that Brylcreem plastered on their hair.
:aok
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I'd like to see the look on their faces if one of the wings had snapped off.
":uhoh Uhh...yeah...it showed up like this."
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Come on! Just admit you screwed up and move on! Women love that sort of stuff! :bolt:
:lol
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Chalenge, I sent ya the reply with the manual, hopefully you got it.
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Yes I did but unfortunately there is not even a date on any of it I could find. There is definitely a P-51D with ten rockets on it though.
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Aussie Mustangs were produced late in the game. Again, much like the USAAF Mustangs latewar, the ability was there to install the rocket rail stubs. But there is nothing to show this being done operationally. The Aussie 51s flown in Korea used the same ord as the USAF Mustangs which means 6 rockets and 2 bombs or 2 napalm tanks.
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I think it comes down to one simple reason why we don't see ten rocket Mustangs, even in Korea. To do so means removing the wing pylons. With the Iwo birds the added weight and drag of the rockets meant having to carry the 165 gallon P38 tanks to allow them to even reach Japan.
In Korea it was a better option to have a variety of ord. A batch of rockets and bombs or rockets and napalm was a better option for ground support then just ten rockets.
Taking off the pylons to add the 4 extra rockets took away the other options. And again, with the need for DTs the pylons had to stay
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For what it's worth, the Iwo Mustangs first carried the rockets on May 25, 1945. Again they had to take the 165 gallon tanks to make up for the weight and drag of the rockets so they could make Japan
THere is no evidence of those rocket rails being used by USAAF Mustangs in the ETO and MTO. The May 1945 timing of the first use in the PTO tends to support this as VE Day was prior to this
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Am I correct in remembering you (or somebody else) also stated they never carried bombs AND rockets during WW2?
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Am I correct in remembering you (or somebody else) also stated they never carried bombs AND rockets during WW2?
For the reasons mentioned. The only way to lug bombs is on the wing hardpoints, so it means no DTs. As the rockets were used over Japan, they needed the DTs to get there to shoot em.
They did carry both in Korea. Interesting to note that they carried 6 when they had DTs and 4 when they carried 500 pounders. Apparently this was standard practice.
And in the interest of 51 rocket fairness I dug through all the 51 books I have, and there are many. There was this shot of a CBI P51D with the rocket tubes and DTS.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/rockettube51D.jpg)
And the RAF ground attack Mustang IIIs in the MTO carried up to 8 Tiffie style rockets, although this meant no bombs or DTs.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/RAFRocket51.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/RAFRockets.jpg)
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With the Iwo birds the added weight and drag of the rockets meant having to carry the 165 gallon P38 tanks to allow them to even reach Japan.
For whatever its worth, they couldn't have made it to Japan and back without the drop tanks, regardless of whether or not they carried rockets. Don't know if that has any impact at all...
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For whatever its worth, they couldn't have made it to Japan and back without the drop tanks, regardless of whether or not they carried rockets. Don't know if that has any impact at all...
Yeah, that too :)
They could make it with the 110 gallon tanks without the rockets was what I meant. They needed the 165 gallon DTs to cover the extra weight and drag when they took the rockets.
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Found a couple more shots of the RAF Mustang III 4 rocket set up that was used in the MTO operationally. The pylon was different and obviously no DT.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/RAFRockets-1.jpg)
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/RocketsRAF.jpg)