Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: oakranger on November 20, 2009, 03:16:17 PM
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Is it possible to set some AC to take a huge beating of damage but still fly. Looking at real pic of bombers nearly flyable make one think how they even got the bird home.
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(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/b17allamerican.jpg)
That's one of the best examples... :O
Another one:
(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/body/Miss_Irish-1.jpg)
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I see planes landing with half a wing gone all the time.
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It's my experience that the AH Spitfire flys and lands quite well with half a wing missing. That'll do me.
:cool:
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not only that but most people in AH dont even know where to hit a bomber to kill it in the first place so the bomber takes a TON of damage.
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I send more bombers to there graves without shooting a single part off.....fire is the name of the game!
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Just because a few instances of planes that were able to make it home after such severe damage doesn't mean the plane was able to withstand such heavy damage. A lot of times those that survived did so because it just wasn't their time to go. For every plane that was shown with the damage like in the photos that were posted, dozens more were lost that received just as much or less damage.
ack-ack
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completely agree with Ack Ack
JB76
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Like airplanes losing control from a few rounds severing control cables.
More than ten feet away and you might no even see damage....
If you want more damage you better be able to except less!
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well said ack-ack.
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if anything I think the P47 should be able to take more, that is one plane that was well known for taking damage and surviving.
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For a single engine fighter it does....only the Il-2 will soak up more ammo.
I fly the P-47 a lot too, it takes a beating and gets home.
Strip
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if anything I think the P47 should be able to take more, that is one plane that was well known for taking damage and surviving.
Quite a few US fighters were known for their rugged construction, like the Jug, Corsair, Wildcat, Hellcat and Lightning.
ack-ack
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if anything I think the P47 should be able to take more, that is one plane that was well known for taking damage and surviving.
Like in Robert Johnson's autobiography, when he was pursued by a 190 pilot? The 190 only had its 7.7mm guns left, and poured round after round into the rear of the P-47, yet it kept flying. Thank goodness for pilot armor.
I dunno, I think the P-47 already soaks up plenty of damage.
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Like in Robert Johnson's autobiography, when he was pursued by a 190 pilot? The 190 only had its 7.7mm guns left, and poured round after round into the rear of the P-47, yet it kept flying. Thank goodness for pilot armor.
I dunno, I think the P-47 already soaks up plenty of damage.
Yea, i notice that it dose too. But bomber, personally, should take more of a beating.
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Quite a few US fighters were known for their rugged construction, like the Jug, Corsair, Wildcat, Hellcat and Lightning.
As unlikely as it sounds today the Allison Mustangs were considered to be just as rugged.
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(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh121/purplehaze835/b172.jpg)
(http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh121/purplehaze835/b17.jpg)
Looks pretty sturdy to me....
Strip
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Yea, i notice that it dose too. But bomber, personally, should take more of a beating.
tru no way a p51 could shot down one buff with only one pass and here it happens regularly and sometimes they'll shoot down 2 and 3 on one pass. and dont give me that crap about you gotta know the right place to aim. one pass, nope, couple of passes yes.
semp
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Only takes one bullet per pilot's head to get a pilot-kill.
;)
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Only takes one bullet per pilot's head to get a pilot-kill.
;)
Do I hear the sound of a can opener? Because that was one mighty can of whoop-arse!
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tru no way a p51 could shot down one buff with only one pass and here it happens regularly and sometimes they'll shoot down 2 and 3 on one pass. and dont give me that crap about you gotta know the right place to aim. one pass, nope, couple of passes yes.
semp
Yes, how much do i hate that. Or and p-38 takes out two with in a sec of each other.
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Only takes one bullet per pilot's head to get a pilot-kill.
;)
you would have to kill the pilot, co-pilot and the navigator/radio operator with that magic bullet.
semp
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600 rounds per minute, times 6 or 8 guns, spraying how many pounds of lead per second?
They're not all going to hit the pilot. They're going to shotgun blast everything in the cockpit.
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I would really love to see the B17 with this level of damage detail in AH. It's always a good feeling of accomplishment surviving an onslaught of enemy contacts, guns blazing, parts getting shredded, but you still get your bomber home, and wonder how you surivived.
(http://www.cloudnet.com/~jfb/dmgdb17.jpg)
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600 rounds per minute, times 6 or 8 guns, spraying how many pounds of lead per second?
They're not all going to hit the pilot. They're going to shotgun blast everything in the cockpit.
Not all are in the front of the cockpit, and even so, you're not going to get multiple planes in one pass. The navigator was usually towards the rear of the cockpit, which, unlike the fighters, are quite large. Plus, even if you don't know how to fly it well, I'm sure a gunner could take control of the plane, bombadier etc... etc...
The point is, you'd have to kill the crew, not just one man to send the bomber spiraling downwards, and even so, you'd still not be able to get multiple bombers in one pass, you'd be hard pressed IRL to even get one in one pass.
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You aim for the cockpit, you HIT the cockpit... the hit sprites are all over the cockpit....
You've just turned everything in the nose of that bomber into pink mist.
Once the pilot is dead the plane instantly blows up (to remove it from the game), so killing 2 or 3 planes in 1 pass is a matter of firing directly into the path of the lead bomber's cockpit, letting his first plane blow up, and then continuing to fire and killing the "new" pilot, and so on.
It's rare, but it's quite logical.
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There was a story about a bomber that took a FlaK hit right above the cockpit. The copilot and engineer were killed instantly and the pilot fatally wounded but he was going to die and he knew it but with the copilot slumped over the controls he could not hold the nose up and they fell out of formation. The bombardier knew how to fly so the crew somehow managed to get the copilot clear of the controls and cared for the pilot (who died almost immediately). Then the enemy fighters came and the guns were not manned at the upper turret or nose and the bombardier was also killed along with the upper gunner the navigator the radio operator and one of the waist gunners. In the end one man made it out of the plane but he left the ball gunner locked in the ball and with the plane twisting down to the ground the tail gunner could not make his way out either. Instead of two men there were nine that lost their lives.
I think a cockpit shot is pretty effective and realistic. :salute
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true but most buffs here are brought down by shooting from behind. I got earlier today 4 buffs by shooting the wings off using about 140 20mm rounds. 3 i killed on a single pass (one at a time). not likely to happen in real life.
semp
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For whatever reason... experience... time in plane... AH players tend to be better shots (I believe) and instead of attacking groups of bombers for the most part players only have to deal with three at a time. Consider also that AH players for the most part dont worry about a death if they can drop even one bomber. In real life most pilots would never take half the shots we try to make online.
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"you would have to kill the pilot, co-pilot and the navigator/radio operator with that magic bullet."
In a B-17 or B-24 and in the real world, maybe - but not in AH, where those types are flown by a single pilot. And the real Lancaster didn't carry a co-pilot. The A-20/Boston ditto, one pilot, in a seat from which it was even harder to extract a wounded or dead pilot.
:cool:
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For whatever reason... experience... time in plane... AH players tend to be better shots (I believe) and instead of attacking groups of bombers for the most part players only have to deal with three at a time. Consider also that AH players for the most part dont worry about a death if they can drop even one bomber. In real life most pilots would never take half the shots we try to make online.
Truth.
(1) In usual cases, the hit chance of WW2 pilots are estimated to be around 5~10% on average (although this is a very loose estimate not withstanding differences in situation, target size, guntypes or ammunition).
(2) Luftwaffe reports estimate around 20~25 x 20mm, and 5 x 30mm hits required to bring down a heavy American bomber.
(3) Thus, if we assume a higher hit chance of around 15~20% against a larger, slower target like a heavy bomber, in theory a Bf109 armed with the MG151 would land around 40 hits, and a MK108 would land 13. For every sortie a 109 pilot would be expected to rtb with around 2~3 bomber kills... but as we already know, the truth is far from that.
(4) Therefore, it is only reasonable to assume that the conditions we meet in the way we fly and fight against bombers in this game, is hardly comparable to what the real pilots had to face.
* If we had no range icon to figure out when we could start squeezing down the trigger and still expect reasonable amount of hits
* If we had to regularly face bombers in the high altitudes over 25k where maneuvering and accelerating becomes extremely difficult
* If we had to jump into overlapping formations of over 20, 50, even 100 bombers with guns blazing everywhere
* If we had only one life to live, and had to struggle to survive to fly and fight another day
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2nd that truth. "we" even think twice about hitting a buff when we one or 2 kills, imagine if it for real :eek:.
semp
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(1) In usual cases, the hit chance of WW2 pilots are estimated to be around 5~10% on average (although this is a very loose estimate not withstanding differences in situation, target size, guntypes or ammunition).
As far as i know, average hit rating of real WW2 pilots was about 1-2%
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(http://www.merkki.com/images/b17damaged.jpg)
More here: http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/fuselage.htm (http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/fuselage.htm)
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More here: http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/fuselage.htm (http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/fuselage.htm)
Picture #7 on page 2 is Sweet Pea which was reported by Andy Rooney to have been the most heavily damaged bomber to ever return to England (it was really serving in Italy but most reporters were covering the 8th A.F. in England like Mr Rooney).
Right below it you can see a ball turret with guns missing. Most guns from bombers serving in Italy never made it home because the crews would toss them into the Adriatic to get rid of any weight owing to the fact that almost every mission the bombers would be leaking fuel and lacking power.
And the next time you are near Arlington stop by and salute the only ball turret gunner to be awarded the Medal of Honor:
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?GRid=21435&page=gr
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To Maynard 'Snuffy' Smith :salute
It wasn't only USAAF day-bombers that had to fight their way home.
On the night of 15/16 September 1940, eighteen-years-old Wireless Operator/Air Gunner Sergeant John Hannah was the dorsal gunner aboard Hampden P1355 'B' of No.83 Squadron RAF, one of fifteen bombers sent to attack invasion barges gathering in Antwerp. His aircraft was hit by flak over the target, caught fire and burned so fiercely that the lower fuselage began to melt and the ventral gunner fell out; luckily, his parachute opened and he landed safely. Next to leave was the navigator, who realised the aircraft wouldn't last much longer. He also made it OK. Both became POWs.
Meanwhile, Hannah informed his pilot over the intercom, 'The aircraft is on fire, sir.'
'Is it very bad?'
'Bad, but not too bad.'
And then the little Scotsman began to fight the fire. With everything he had. It took him twenty minutes to heave the blazing ammunition drums overboard and put all the fires out, during which time another 83 Squadron pilot, Guy Gibson, saw the crippled Hampden "attracting all the flak as flames and sparks came out like the wrong end of a rocket hanging in the air." It was so hot that the pilot felt the heat radiating from the armoured bulkhead behind him.
Eventually, Hannah informed his pilot 'the fire is out, sir' and crawled back past the wreckage to his radio to attempt a position fix. No joy, the fire had destroyed the radio and had roasted the two carrier pigeons carried for emergencies. Ninety minutes later, the aircraft landed back at Scampton and the pilot and Hannah exited it quickly. When an airfield guard shone a torch onto Hannah it became obvious that he was in a bad way and he was immediately transported to a nearby Service hospital.
Hannah recovered sufficiently to attend an investiture at Buckingham Palace, where the King himself presented him with the Victoria Cross. He never regained his full fitness status and served as a ground instructor until he was discharged with tuberculosis in December 1942. Living on a disability pension, he was hard put to support his family - he had three infant daughters - and he died on 9 June 1947. Twenty years later, his widow and daughters presented his VC to 83 Squadron, then flying Vulcans at Scampton, on permanent loan.
:salute all those airmen who fought to get their aircraft home against the odds. And John Hannah, the youngest airman ever to be awarded a Victoria Cross.
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By the way the Medal of Honor is often referred to as the Congressional Medal of Honor because it is awarded by the Department of Defense "in the name of Congress" but it is a mistake to do so. It is proper to call it the "Medal of Honor." That site did at least get that wrong.
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On the first page, last pix. German launch a rocket at them?
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(http://www.merkki.com/images/b17damaged.jpg)
More here: http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/fuselage.htm (http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/fuselage.htm)
after reading every story there, If they are truths,(why would they lie?) I am absolutely positive our bombers here in AH, are way to easy to take out, seems like 50 cal, would not be enough. unless it was a whole LOT of them.
some amazing pics :salute
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Concerning the use of 50 cal I would have to disagree. You seem to be saying that American bombers were better built than any other plane in the war (50 cals did shoot down German and Japanese bombers). I will say that the way these bombers are most succesfully killed in AH is unlike any way they would have been killed in WWII (ignoring the American versus American aircraft types) mostly because fighters can and do use 100% power all the time but the same is true of the bombers. The way I kill bombers is extremely high angles extremely high velocities and the most difficult approach I can make on them. I think sitting on the tail of a bomber with 50 cals blazing should result in a dead fighter but I have no doubt that four to eight 50 cals would drop an American bomber even from dead six. 50 cals are not light weight guns and they are very effective even on the heaviest of armored planes.
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The way I kill bombers is extremely high angles extremely high velocities and the most difficult approach I can make on them.
Having been on the recieving end of many patient attackers guns, I can attest to this truth. It is very possible, and I gun pretty decent in a B17.
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Re50 cal bomber kills - you may be correct that the aircraft structure is hard to destroy, but there were young boys and men inside who are not as durable. Same with control cables - it was the aircrafts most vunerable area. And as you already know, the human body doesn't fair well against the 50 cal slug.
A lot of bombers went down flyable but their crew was dead. :(