Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Ardy123 on January 02, 2010, 05:45:34 AM
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I often try to sneak this move into fights, cuz its fun. It usually messes things up or just 'resets' the fight where I'm once again merging head on almost. When is the 'proper' time to use a wing-over, ie what situation should I be looking for (in terms of the relationship of my plane to theirs and what acm they are either entering or leaving)?
I know doing things because its 'fun' in a fight is not a very good excuse if your trying to win, but come on... If I can make it look beautiful (in a pilot porn sort-of way) as well as kill the other guy, that would be even better.
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Since I dont know what exactly a "wing-over" is could you possibly post a film of a fight where you used it bud?
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The heart of the problem is that you don't ever look to "sneak" a move into a fight because it looks cool or you like it. A "wing over" is nothing other then a vertical change of direction and basically is the end of a rope.
Junky I'm 99% sure this is what ardy is referring to as a wing over. Basically all of the yaks vertical reverses are "wing overs" setting up top down vertical slashing attacks. It gave me a chance to fool around with what I call a vertical two circle fight (others have said that is a technically incorrect description. In my mind the fight is two overlapping circles with me countering his up with my down and then climbing up inside his line of movement so that my circle overlaps his. This allows me to compress the fight such that I can work some snapshots in and keep a measure of vertical capability. In effect I'm doing what I can to contest his control of the situation and present a fight that he might not be as familiar with....
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film51.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film51.ahf)
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wing·over (wiŋ′ō′vər)
noun
an aerial maneuver in which an airplane enters a steep climbing turn until almost stalled, rolls beyond a vertical bank, then noses down and dives until normal flight is resumed in a direction approximately opposite to the original direction of flight.
-Webster's New World College Dictionary
I use this a lot in certain planes. Among planes I regularily fly some are very good at it (F6F/FM2) and others are not (Spits). Flap and/or rudder assist can help if needed.
The proper time to use it is as a vertical reverse against one of those planes that aren't very good at it. It not only allows you to reverse but to gain seperation since your turn at the top (the wingover) is much tighter than the opponents more circular turn (most likely a high yoyo).
This part: in a direction approximately opposite to the original direction of flight will surprise a lot of guys who won't know how to counter.
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I think this the same as a hammerhead?
The proper time to use it is as a vertical reverse against one of those planes that aren't very good at it. It not only allows you to reverse but to gain seperation since your turn at the top (the wingover) is much tighter than the opponents more circular turn (most likely a high yoyo).
this is a maneuver which always left me in the tower scratching my head until I worked out what was going on, as the following plane in a turn fight with a big vertical component it looks like you're following the guy up just fine, getting closer to firing solution then suddenly hes facing you and you cant pull lead. classic corsair vs spit maneuver, the spit thinks he has advantage cus the fights gone vertical, the corsair knows he has the advantage because of his vastly superior rudder authority.
in another thread about IL2 vs AH flight models someone mentioned they thought something was a bit awry with AH's handling at near/sub stall speeds esp hammerheads. I just cannot do a proper hammerhead in a spit, still not sure if its me, the spit modelling, or maybe just that spits dont hammerhead well. thinking about it ive not seen a tight hammerhead performed by a spit in a display, I guess maybe because however capable the spit is, its a fighter not an aerobatic plane.
edit: this is a great example of why recording fights is useful - theres no way you can work out what happened from the cockpit, watching the film in an external view with trails on shows it perfectly.
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I dont see a yak in that film snap. Am i missing something
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Snaphook,
Thanks for the film, I didn't not see the yak do any wing-overs in it, just hammer heads. Here is a video of a wing-over.
The difference is that in a wing-over the plane is in the same plain and does not roll upside down. When done properly (which its not in this film), the nose comes around quicker and less e is burned to recover.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwnywodo0ad/wingover.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwnywodo0ad/wingover.ahf)
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To me they are functionally the same from an ACM perspective. The key point is the relatively limited use for the maneuver in either form. Basically your attempting to eliminate or minimize any arc at the top of your reverse (my perspective). To me this creates two issues. A lack of control surface authority for a period of time at the top and a very predictable line of travel. So the offset in maximizing E retention is offset by the above. IMO I want to be able to manipulate my lift vector and disguise my intentions rather then showing my hand. If i'm negative E and see a con hang the prop I'll push the nose down and then try and pop up while he's floating.
Another film from today, not exactly on topic but gives you an idea of my thoughts. Here I'm clearly in a +E state and fly a non merge...seeing him pull back over I engage and take the fight up. Here with the bogey topped out shots on the reverses are fine. After the 2nd one I've got no real positional advantage and no real desire to hunt him down if he's dead stick.
http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film58.ahf (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/film58.ahf)
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The dictionary has it wrong, or at least incomplete. A wingover doesn't require an "almost stalled" condition at all. To further break this down, a wingover is more accurately considered an aerobatic maneuver and it's principal component is roll. A Hammerhead (an aerobatics term) is similar to a pure vertical reversal in ACM but the predominate motion is in yaw, not roll.
Variations of "wingovers" occur during ACM including such maneuvers as a high yo-yo, pitchback, or vertical reversal. Also, in Humbles film there are two versions of a wingover. The first is the Yak's initial move where he does a high yo-yo. If you forget Humble and just look at the Yak's flight path you can see him coming in flat, pulling up, overbanking into the turn, and then recovering. It's really only 90 deg of turn but essentially a wingover type maneuver. Also, a much better example of a pure wingover is at about 2+25 where both aircraft are extending in opposite directions. If you watch the film from Humble's position you can see the Yak straightlining away on the deck, and pull up with an overbank to the right. Turn "tracks" on and you can clearly see these as examples of wingovers in an ACM engagement and neither is near a stalled condition. That's not to say that it can't happen near stall, it certainly can, especially in a vertical reversal. I have to disagree with Humble in that I would characterize the majority of the maneuvers as oblique loops since they are, in reality, not separate maneuvers but part of both a vertical looping fight as well as rolling and vertical scissors. Although these maneuvers include components of wingovers, (primarily a nose up attitude and overbanking) these terms more correctly characterize the fight than does "wingover".
So, that brings us to the OP's original question, "when is the "proper" time to use a wing-over?" There are several times when a wingover is appropriate. The Yak's two maneuvers are good examples. The first (really a high yo-yo) keeps the Yak from overshooting the Corsair's turn radius, converts E to altitude, and creates a longer flight path to control closure and allow the Yak to convert his E to a better position. The Yak doesn't do this well though. The Corsair has already completed enough of a turn that it's easy for him to keep the Yak in front of his wingline. With the Yak's tremendous E advantage (500 mph compared to 300) he could have pulled a more agressive and sustained yo-yo into an almost pure vertical reversal that would have put him directly above the Corsair in which case he could have completely neutralized the Hog's turn rate/radius advantage. At this point the Yak would only have to roll in the vertical to put his lift vector on the Hog for a better shot opportunity than he had.
The second example at 2+25 is an outstanding example of a pure wingover and serves a completely different purpose than the yo-yo. In this case it's the "pitchback" portion of an extension/pitchback maneuver or tactic. Prior to the wingover, the Yak is on the deck and opening at about 250mph. He then pulls up and overbanks to the right completing his turn at just under 200mph with a small radius due to his nose high turn but finishes his maneuver nose low and accelerating. He hits the next merge with about 315mph, 65mph faster than his previous merge. What he's accomplished is to gain sufficient separation that he can redefine the fight with another merge (although things still don't work out for him). The wingover allows him to quickly get his nose turned around efficiently by using the vertical while he gains more E than he had at the previous merge. This type of maneuver is ideal for reversing on an enemy in trail, you just have to make sure that you have sufficient separation to complete the maneuver before the bandit is on you otherwise you'll just present him with a nice planform view of the airplane and a large target.
The vertical reversal is essentially the same animal but under different conditions and usually applies when you have an e or vertical position advantage on your enemy. Consider it a "wingover" where your initial flight path is vertical rather than horizontal. It's an outstanding method to reverse your direction of flight from up to down and differs from the others in that it can be very close to stall speed but it doesn't have to be. For instance, say you're ropeing someone with much less E. You could still be climbing at 150mph when your opponent stalls out below you. You should immediately do a reversal to head back down to catch him while he's vulnerable. If you continue up until you're near stall you're just giving him separation and time to recover and prepare to counter your next attack.
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I appreciate the clarification Mace. In my very simplistic view I generally consider any type of a hi yoyo and beyond to be some flavor of wingover. To me its a reversal of some flavor executed in the vertical with a minimal amount of "turn" involved. Expanding on your comments I thought the yak driver flew a very good fight but was lacking a sound conceptual understanding of his exploitable advantages. He kept on putting himself in excellent position to take total control and then letting me right back in the fight. I tend to view everything very much in relation to relative lift vectors so I get more focused on what a move does vs what it actually is.
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Snaphook,
Thanks for the film, I didn't not see the yak do any wing-overs in it, just hammer heads. Here is a video of a wing-over.
The difference is that in a wing-over the plane is in the same plain and does not roll upside down. When done properly (which its not in this film), the nose comes around quicker and less e is burned to recover.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwnywodo0ad/wingover.ahf (http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwnywodo0ad/wingover.ahf)
This is an excellent example of a Hammerhead, all yaw, no roll. The term "wingover" comes from the idea that one wing goes up and over the other, in other words more than 90deg angle of bank so the predominant component is roll. The Hammerhead seems to be a maneuver which is particularly difficult to do successfully in AH for some reason, it's much easier in RL. The key is to use forward stick to prevent the aircraft from coming over on it's back and turning yaw into roll.
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ahh thank you so, my terminology is wrong, I guess I mean hammerheads and not wing-overs.
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Since I dont know what exactly a "wing-over" is could you possibly post a film of a fight where you used it bud?
Junky, you do it all the time. You prolly just don't know that what you're doing is a wingover or pitchback. Every time I've fought you you did it several times. :salute
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Here is a film of when me and u were fighting the other night. I use a wingover/hammerhead on you 3 times in this fight, at the 3:40 mark, 4:00, and 4:35. I find it to be most effective in the rolling scissors as I'm at the top of my loop, and the other guy is at the bottom starting to go nose up. Instead of rolling i use a wing over to get a snapshot as you go by. In this particular fight I can't hit squat with a tater, but you can see how it can be effective.
www.dasmuppets.com/public/Suns/wingover.ahf
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Junky, you do it all the time. You prolly just don't know that what you're doing is a wingover or pitchback. Every time I've fought you you did it several times. :salute
No No No, what Im doing is called ownage :aok :D :salute
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uhmmm
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uhmmm
bumping thread for other 109 conversations
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I got a question.......Do you all rudder into rolling scissors? I cross controll at the top to hang there a bit(trick from SunsFan) then I change rudder to turn into the roll which seems to get me behind opponents :salute
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I rudder over at the top. I don't cross control, that never even occurred to me really, I usually try to keep going on up to almost stall and rudder it over hard to try and pick up angles again when I'm at the top so I can fall back into lag at the bottom. Without having tried it at all (and admittedly I'm not really very good) it seems like cross controlling at the top would bleed E that you could end up needing. To that end I try to keep vertical at the top as long as possible so as to not give up E but to still cut down on forward motion. I will certainly give the cross control a shot though. I do like that rudder at the top to get me going back down fast though.
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I got a question.......Do you all rudder into rolling scissors? I cross controll at the top to hang there a bit(trick from SunsFan) then I change rudder to turn into the roll which seems to get me behind opponents :salute
I rudder over at the top. I don't cross control, that never even occurred to me really, I usually try to keep going on up to almost stall and rudder it over hard to try and pick up angles again when I'm at the top so I can fall back into lag at the bottom. Without having tried it at all (and admittedly I'm not really very good) it seems like cross controlling at the top would bleed E that you could end up needing. To that end I try to keep vertical at the top as long as possible so as to not give up E but to still cut down on forward motion. I will certainly give the cross control a shot though. I do like that rudder at the top to get me going back down fast though.
The idea is to fly the Steeper angle of the Helix........ you can increase your angle by either using "outside rudder" or by rolling your lift vector more into Lag ( Lag Pursuit...ie pointing your Lift Vector further behind your opponents 3-9 line )
when you say you cross-control at the top, are you talking cross-controling by using outside rudder? ( think opposite rudder ) or are you crossing up your ailerons as well? I am just curious.....
Yes I use both Outside Rudder &/or Rolling of my Lift Vector depending on what my visual is I have on my opponents 3-9 line...... rolling the Lift Vector toward Lag burns less energy.......... and yes to gain quicker angles I will Rudder in toward the roll/turn when at the top of the scissors maneuver if my visual tells me I will gain a definite behind the 3-9 line advantage.......
hope this helps...
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I agree with TC the steeper angle is what you're shooting for and controlling your lift vector is the best way to do this.
You want to maintain E in a rolling scissors for better turn performance and to maintain sufficient E to be able to maneuver in response to the bandit's moves (or to dodge a picker). For instance, if he sees you "parked" at the top of the scissors at 20mph he could either level his wings and pull straight into you (if he has the E) or dive away to escape if he doesn't. Cross controlling (rudder opposite your ailerons) is the opposite of what you want because it will cause you to bleed alot of E and as you lose E you lose vertical performance so your helix will get flatter and flatter (because you don't have the E to get your nose up) and increase your down-range travel. What you want is some rudder into the roll at the top to assist in getting the nose around quickly but don't do too much otherwise you'll turn an easy roll into a more abrupt rudder roll and stop your helix (but you'll use a rudder roll later.) How much rudder is "too much" is dependant on speed. If you're pretty slow a lot of rudder really helps get your nose down.
Once you've pushed your opponent out in front a bit (by keeping your lift vector behind him) and it looks like you have sufficient separation is the time when a rudder-roll at the top (lots of rudder into the roll) can be useful. Done correctly this sort of "dishes" your nose out and gets it up near the horizon (rather than real nose low for another "loop"). This flattens out your flight path and you can cut across the circle at him. This converts from a position essentially across the circle from him to one on his six. Use this with caution and make sure you've got adequate separation. If you don't, you'll end up out in front. The best way to measure this is by your opponent's position on your canopy. If he's steadily moving closer and closer to your nose you're gaining on him. Once he's basically staying around your forward-up view then you're probably in a good position to convert. On the other hand, if he's staying in essentially the same position you're neutral and if he's moving aft then you're losing the fight. You have to kind of average his position out as he'll move back and forth depending on where you're at in the scissors (near the top or bottom for instance).
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I think this the same as a hammerhead?
Not the same thing, and I have a heck of a time performing a true hammerhead in AH. I would enjoy seeing film of a classic hammerhead in AH.
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The idea is to fly the Steeper angle of the Helix........ you can increase your angle by either using "outside rudder" or by rolling your lift vector more into Lag ( Lag Pursuit...ie pointing your Lift Vector further behind your opponents 3-9 line )
when you say you cross-control at the top, are you talking cross-controling by using outside rudder? ( think opposite rudder ) or are you crossing up your ailerons as well? I am just curious.....
Yes I use both Outside Rudder &/or Rolling of my Lift Vector depending on what my visual is I have on my opponents 3-9 line...... rolling the Lift Vector toward Lag burns less energy.......... and yes to gain quicker angles I will Rudder in toward the roll/turn when at the top of the scissors maneuver if my visual tells me I will gain a definite behind the 3-9 line advantage.......
hope this helps...
The steeper helix is why I was saying that I try to keep going up a hair longer and bring the nose down quickly rather than hang at the top. I try to. I still lose plenty of rolling scissors though because I mess something up. That's basically how I think about it to myself, tighter threads on a screw.
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At the top TC I use left stick right rudder or right stick left rudder depending on which way it seems the opponent is going to go under me, honestly this is working well for me, I catch people in their up slope of their next roll even with tators if I miss them there I normally have enough E in my K4 to repeat the same move and come down on top of them, honestly Im just using the K4s strengths of accel and climb over the other guy, In a F4U its a completely different game I cant cross control without augering into the ground(if Im on the deck)