When to use a wing-over properly

[MajWoody]

uhmmm

[Ardy123]

uhmmm

bumping thread for other 109 conversations

[JunkyII]

I got a question.......Do you all rudder into rolling scissors? I cross controll at the top to hang there a bit(trick from SunsFan) then I change rudder to turn into the roll which seems to get me behind opponents

[maddafinga]

I rudder over at the top.  I don't cross control, that never even occurred to me really, I usually try to keep going on up to almost stall and rudder it over hard to try and pick up angles again when I'm at the top so I can fall back into lag at the bottom.  Without having tried it at all (and admittedly I'm not really very good) it seems like cross controlling at the top would bleed E that you could end up needing.  To that end I try to keep vertical at the top as long as possible so as to not give up E but to still cut down on forward motion.  I will certainly give the cross control a shot though.  I do like that rudder at the top to get me going back down fast though. 

[TequilaChaser]

I got a question.......Do you all rudder into rolling scissors? I cross controll at the top to hang there a bit(trick from SunsFan) then I change rudder to turn into the roll which seems to get me behind opponents

I rudder over at the top.  I don't cross control, that never even occurred to me really, I usually try to keep going on up to almost stall and rudder it over hard to try and pick up angles again when I'm at the top so I can fall back into lag at the bottom.  Without having tried it at all (and admittedly I'm not really very good) it seems like cross controlling at the top would bleed E that you could end up needing.  To that end I try to keep vertical at the top as long as possible so as to not give up E but to still cut down on forward motion.  I will certainly give the cross control a shot though.  I do like that rudder at the top to get me going back down fast though. 

The idea is to fly the Steeper angle of the Helix........ you can increase your angle by either using "outside rudder" or by rolling your lift vector more into Lag ( Lag Pursuit...ie pointing your Lift Vector further behind your opponents 3-9 line )

when you say you cross-control at the top, are you talking cross-controling  by using outside rudder? ( think opposite rudder ) or are you crossing up your ailerons as well?  I am just curious.....

Yes I use both Outside Rudder &/or Rolling of my Lift Vector depending on what my visual is I have on my opponents 3-9 line...... rolling the Lift Vector toward Lag burns less energy.......... and yes to gain quicker angles I will Rudder in toward the roll/turn when at the top of the scissors maneuver if  my visual tells me I will gain a definite behind the 3-9 line advantage.......

hope this helps...

[Mace2004]

I agree with TC the steeper angle is what you're shooting for and controlling your lift vector is the best way to do this.  

You want to maintain E in a rolling scissors for better turn performance and to maintain sufficient E to be able to maneuver in response to the bandit's moves (or to dodge a picker).  For instance, if he sees you "parked" at the top of the scissors at 20mph he could either level his wings and pull straight into you (if he has the E) or dive away to escape if he doesn't.  Cross controlling (rudder opposite your ailerons) is the opposite of what you want because it will cause you to bleed alot of E and as you lose E you lose vertical performance so your helix will get flatter and flatter (because you don't have the E to get your nose up) and increase your down-range travel.  What you want is some rudder into the roll at the top to assist in getting the nose around quickly but don't do too much otherwise you'll turn an easy roll into a more abrupt rudder roll and stop your helix (but you'll use a rudder roll later.)  How much rudder is "too much" is dependant on speed.  If you're pretty slow a lot of rudder really helps get your nose down.

Once you've pushed your opponent out in front a bit (by keeping your lift vector behind him) and it looks like you have sufficient separation is the time when a rudder-roll at the top (lots of rudder into the roll) can be useful.  Done correctly this sort of "dishes" your nose out and gets it up near the horizon (rather than real nose low for another "loop").  This flattens out your flight path and you can cut across the circle at him.  This converts from a position essentially across the circle from him to one on his six.  Use this with caution and make sure you've got adequate separation.  If you don't, you'll end up out in front.  The best way to measure this is by your opponent's position on your canopy.  If he's steadily moving closer and closer to your nose you're gaining on him.  Once he's basically staying around your forward-up view then you're probably in a good position to convert.  On the other hand, if he's staying in essentially the same position you're neutral and if he's moving aft then you're losing the fight.  You have to kind of average his position out as he'll move back and forth depending on where you're at in the scissors (near the top or bottom for instance).

[Anaxogoras]

I think this the same as a hammerhead?

Not the same thing, and I have a heck of a time performing a true hammerhead in AH.  I would enjoy seeing film of a classic hammerhead in AH.

[maddafinga]

The idea is to fly the Steeper angle of the Helix........ you can increase your angle by either using "outside rudder" or by rolling your lift vector more into Lag ( Lag Pursuit...ie pointing your Lift Vector further behind your opponents 3-9 line )

when you say you cross-control at the top, are you talking cross-controling  by using outside rudder? ( think opposite rudder ) or are you crossing up your ailerons as well?  I am just curious.....

Yes I use both Outside Rudder &/or Rolling of my Lift Vector depending on what my visual is I have on my opponents 3-9 line...... rolling the Lift Vector toward Lag burns less energy.......... and yes to gain quicker angles I will Rudder in toward the roll/turn when at the top of the scissors maneuver if  my visual tells me I will gain a definite behind the 3-9 line advantage.......

hope this helps...

The steeper helix is why I was saying that I try to keep going up a hair longer and bring the nose down quickly rather than hang at the top.  I try to.  I still lose plenty of rolling scissors though because I mess something up.  That's basically how I think about it to myself, tighter threads on a screw.

[JunkyII]

At the top TC I use left stick right rudder or right stick left rudder depending on which way it seems the opponent is going to go under me, honestly this is working well for me, I catch people in their up slope of their next roll even with tators if I miss them there I normally have enough E in my K4 to repeat the same move and come down on top of them, honestly Im just using the K4s strengths of accel and climb over the other guy, In a F4U its a completely different game I cant cross control without augering into the ground(if Im on the deck)