Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Vinkman on January 11, 2010, 04:50:54 PM
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Radio, Radio,
I'm flying toward the enemy base in the company of another friendly. We encounter 3 bogies that are co-alt, a P-38 is about 2k out in front of a Spit and T-bolt heading strait at us. I'm on the left in Yak 9T, about 2k in front of the other friendly who's in a P-51. I call "in" on the P-38. After several turns the P-38 is in my gun sights, he's turning hard and bleeding e-fast. I pass on few snap shots because this yak has 32 useful round of ammo and I don’t want to waste them, I can wait a little longer for a cleaner shot and it should be coming right up because the 38 driver is cork screwing in the hope of making me miss, but not doing anything that's going to turn the tables. In a few seconds he won't have the E to roll fast enough to make me miss. Once I kill him I can turn back to help the Mustang who's on the short end of a 2 on 1. The 38 levels out and starts to make a slow climbing right hander. I turn with him, give it a little throttle and some left rudder to get the nose up and line him up. I'm about the squeeze the trigger when a stream of tracers races past my canopy. Damn a bandit is in firing range. He missed but he has lead on me. I'm in trouble but I can get the kill first. I squeeze the cannon button. The 38 is in pieces and begins to spin nose up when my rounds hit him and he explodes. What the…just then the friendly 51 blows past me. The tracers were his. System: You got an Assist on bandit. For Pete's sake. More tracers fly past the canopy. I look back ad the Spit and the Jug are 400 yrds back, one turn later I'm missing a wing and spiral into the ground. It seemed so inefficient.
What did I learn from the ensuing frustration? That very few team mates think like real pilots. Why should they? It's a game not a real war. There are no generals, no orders, no game plan, no roles and responsibilities, no training, and no accountability. The team dynamics are a result of each pilot acting on his own sense of what he feels like doing at any given moment, and at that moment the 51 driver wanted a kill. He didn’t want to defeat the red menace, or make sure I got home safely, which would be top priorities for a pilot in a real war. He wanted to kill as many red guys as he could, and get back and land them, the bandit I was chasing was the easiest one to get.
Sure, there could be a lot of reason for him to go for the same guy I was after…
He thought I'd miss
He thought the guy might turn the tables
He never saw me
Etc…
I got caught up in very similar situation about an hour later and I in frustration I squeaked over the range channel "G'd Darn it, why are you shooting over my shoulder?" I was told I had just done the same thing by downing a pilot who was on a friendly's twelve o'clock. I replied with this excuse..
I thought he was on your six o'clock.
In my defense I think the bandit was on his six when I saw him and dove to 'help', but by the time I got there they were engaged in a rolling scissors and they friendly may have completed the reversal. He said he had the film. Perhaps he'll post and clear it up. But as I thought more about it I realized what the real problem was. Too much assuming, not enough communicating on the radio. So I'm committing myself to a new radio etiquette where I will asked before entering, and announce what I'm doing so others know. A few already do. I hope it catches on. The MA needs a little more organization, even if it's one furball at a time.
Vinkman
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edit: Good story telling :cheers:
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<snip>
Vinkman
I see that a lot. I'll see a friendly and a bandit go 1v1 and then the bandit breaks off from the fight to dive and pick someone even though they still have the friendly they were originally fighting on their six. For example, I was fighting a P-47M in a 1v1 fight the other day at around 10k and there were a couple of bandits and a friendly fighting below us. The Jug loses position after a couple of turns and I get on his six and then he immediately dives for the fight below us to pick the friendly that was already engaged in a 2v1 fight. Sadly, I wasn't able to get the kill shot on the P-47M as he dove (those suckers can dive really fast) and killed the friendly but popped him right after as he pulled up in the vertical. I just don't understand that line of thinking and attributed it to "If I'm gonna die, at least I'm gonna take one of these bastards with me" type mentality. I'm sure the two bandits that were originally on the friendly's six didn't appreciate having their kill stolen either by the P-47M driver.
ack-ack
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I had a similar thing happen to me the other day. I take up an f6f, go afk for a bit and end up 30 k up in hostile territory. I decide to turn around and head back to an unfriendly base. after completing the turn I spot a dot lower than me and ahead and start a shallow dive. Turns out to be a red p-47m. We merge and begin what was turning out to be a great fight at about 20k. both of us are low on energy when his calvary shows up in the guise of a tempest, which promptly blows up my engine. So as I'm heading downward, here comes the p47 diving on me putting a bunch of 50 cal rounds in my tail and taking it off, stealing the tempests kill. I punched out, shook my head and left for the night.
I was blown away that dude would do that. If I was the tempest pilot I would have been perturbed.
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LMOA... Story of my llife.. At least in the Yak I think. I also fly the T and will "play with my food" so to speak until, I get a positive solution and only use 1 of my 32 cannon rounds. So many times I get my 12 cleared right as I've tired the guy out.
Mostly happens in furballs which I expect, but its the occasional good fight I am having that chaps my hide when I get my KILL STOLEN ... :cry
Oh yeah, I also ask to enter a fight if it even remotely seems competitive.
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It happens a lot, no point trying to rationalize it or get annoyed about it that guy shoulder shooting you could have been fighting the guy your now on for a long time. I've worked guys down from high up before maybe a 5-10 minute fight right down to the deck and had someone latch onto him on the deck and then have me shoot them down and got the 'you stole my kill' on vox, its very much a perspective thing.
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rgr that victor
5 by 5 on more coms
out
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I had a similar thing happen to me the other day. I take up an f6f, go afk for a bit and end up 30 k up in hostile territory. I decide to turn around and head back to an unfriendly base. after completing the turn I spot a dot lower than me and ahead and start a shallow dive. Turns out to be a red p-47m. We merge and begin what was turning out to be a great fight at about 20k. both of us are low on energy when his calvary shows up in the guise of a tempest, which promptly blows up my engine. So as I'm heading downward, here comes the p47 diving on me putting a bunch of 50 cal rounds in my tail and taking it off, stealing the tempests kill. I punched out, shook my head and left for the night.
I was blown away that dude would do that. If I was the tempest pilot I would have been perturbed.
The only thing I would bring up here maybe in their defense.
It could have been a friend that did communicate towards him and said:
Finish him.
That I would understand, if it was not that, than it was a kill stealing,
although stealing a kill.
In real war I'd rather have the guy shot down by somebody anyhow rather than rack the kill myself.
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That is why I only fly with guys that I know or guys that I have seen around and seen how they like to fly. I usually ask if a friendly needs help or not. If not I will just hang high and cover them so their 1v1 doesn't get interrupted. Nothing pisses me off more then a friendly shooting over my shoulder. I usually try to fly in their stream so they kill their selfs :devil.
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I had a similar thing happen to me the other day. I take up an f6f, go afk for a bit and end up 30 k up in hostile territory. I decide to turn around and head back to an unfriendly base. after completing the turn I spot a dot lower than me and ahead and start a shallow dive. Turns out to be a red p-47m. We merge and begin what was turning out to be a great fight at about 20k. both of us are low on energy when his calvary shows up in the guise of a tempest, which promptly blows up my engine. So as I'm heading downward, here comes the p47 diving on me putting a bunch of 50 cal rounds in my tail and taking it off, stealing the tempests kill. I punched out, shook my head and left for the night.
I was blown away that dude would do that. If I was the tempest pilot I would have been perturbed.
Conversely, if I was the P-47 driver, I would have been pissed if I didn't get the kill after dancing around with you trying to get position and then some Tempest jockey comes screaming in and pops your engine.
I would have done exactly what the P-47 driver did ... deny the meddling Tempest the kill that I was working hard for.
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Vinkman I know your pain. In fact I have heard it many times. But I do understand your frustration. I know that it does help when you fly with someone you know. Working in a squad and flying with someone on a regular basis alleviates some of these problems. One thing I have found is that sometimes when I start a high speed pass on a lower con and a friendly pulls in behind them is to let the friendly know I have his six and if I am closing fast and going to overtake him relay this info on vox. Usually I get a reply that they have them or take him if you can. As you say communications is a large part of it. Be looking for you in the friendly skies. Check your six.
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Conversely, if I was the P-47 driver, I would have been pissed if I didn't get the kill after dancing around with you trying to get position and then some Tempest jockey comes screaming in and pops your engine.
I would have done exactly what the P-47 driver did ... deny the meddling Tempest the kill that I was working hard for.
You took the words I was about to type out of my mouth Slap. Totally agree! :aok
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Us Bishop have the Bishop Joint Operations, so does the Rooks. We all do MoM Missions, so the MA does have a little organization.
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The difference is those that fly AH as a game, for points. Those that fly it as a combat Sim will help each other and enjoy the immersion. The 51 could have scored one or both of those focused on your six. Selfishness accounts for a lot of lame gameplay. (Yes Hitech some pretend your game is a Sim).
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Another example of what I wsa talking about happened last night. I was in a B-25H defending out base from GV attack and there was Rookie flying around in a P-51 near the base. He is engaged with a fellow Knight and when he sees me making my landing approach, breaks off with the Knight he's fighting and swoops down and tries to vulch me as I land. Of course he dies because the guy he was fighting is now on his six and nails him as he tries to vulch.
I just don't understand why people make these type of bad tactical decisions.
ack-ack
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Another example of what I wsa talking about happened last night. I was in a B-25H defending out base from GV attack and there was Rookie flying around in a P-51 near the base. He is engaged with a fellow Knight and when he sees me making my landing approach, breaks off with the Knight he's fighting and swoops down and tries to vulch me as I land. Of course he dies because the guy he was fighting is now on his six and nails him as he tries to vulch.
I just don't understand why people make these type of bad tactical decisions.
ack-ack
I love the concept of better results through better tactics. And if there were a course on better tactics, the Advanced Tactics Class would start with TEAM tactics. Proper team tactics are force multipliers not adders. Sure learning how to perform the most stall limitted reversal manuevers in 1 v 1 is fun and cool and all, but most of us will probably never be able to put in enough time to get as good as some of the better sticks out there. But simple manuevers executed in a coordinated way with a wingman or (can we even dare hope) a formation would yield far better results than complicated manuevers attempted alone.
The best weapon is the radio.
All off the comments on squads and flying with friends a greatly appreciated. I think I would like to find some folks that want to actually take some time to work on winging up as formation and practicing team ACM.
Drop me a note if interested.
Vinkman
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What I like to do is rope a con, and then as I'm reversing back down to kill him then have a friendly come in and blow him away. :mad:
But sometimes in the middle of the action you miss things. I was doing some base defense not too long ago and killed a really really slow spitfire, seemed like he was just hanging there waiting for me to shoot him. It slowly dawns on me and I look around and sure enough there was the friendly - forget who but a good stick and a nice guy - who had roped him. He wasn't complaining but I apologized right away.
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I got caught up in very similar situation about an hour later and I in frustration I squeaked over the range channel "G'd Darn it, why are you shooting over my shoulder?" I was told I had just done the same thing by downing a pilot who was on a friendly's twelve o'clock. I replied with this excuse..
I thought he was on your six o'clock.
In my defense I think the bandit was on his six when I saw him and dove to 'help', but by the time I got there they were engaged in a rolling scissors and they friendly may have completed the reversal. He said he had the film. Perhaps he'll post and clear it up. But as I thought more about it I realized what the real problem was. Too much assuming, not enough communicating on the radio.
You know, I didn't care when you shot the guy I was about to kill and should have killed already if my aim wasn't so atrocious in that given moment. We were in a furball on the deck, there's no reason to be calling who has what. It gets chaotic and there usually isn't a lot of time to worry about who has who and what not. What I found hysterical was when you screamed at me on vox for essentially nothing when you had just done the exact same thing a minute before. Again I stress, I did not care that you shot the K4, but I did care that you decided to rant on range and drop an F bomb in my direction.
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20302247/vinkman2.ahf (http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20302247/vinkman2.ahf)
Here's the 45 second film of when you shot the K4 I was fighting. No big deal, probably not even worth watching for anyone out there.
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20301717/vinkman_rant.ahf (http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20301717/vinkman_rant.ahf) (warning, does contain some profanity)
This was absurd. I was fighting my butt off on the deck in the Ta152 with oil leak and all. I shoot at the p47n that had just attempted to HO the heck out of me just 10 seconds before. I then have to deal with a profanity laced rant on range? :huh
Vinkman, I'm sure you were just frustrated and took it out on me but you really should refrain from freaking out like this on range.
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On a related note, it's always tough for pilots before they realize that due to netlag, two friendlies after the same bandit can both be shooting from behind the other one's shoulder.
I'm pointing this out because in your second story, it's possible that the pilot who you came in to help may have seen your tracers come over his shoulder, even though on your FE, I assume he was behind you, and you never saw him.
<S>
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I really don't care who gets the kill as long as I'm alive and flying after its done. A kill is a kill and one less baddie to worry about.
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You know, I didn't care when you shot the guy I was about to kill and should have killed already if my aim wasn't so atrocious in that given moment. We were in a furball on the deck, there's no reason to be calling who has what. It gets chaotic and there usually isn't a lot of time to worry about who has who and what not. What I found hysterical was when you screamed at me on vox for essentially nothing when you had just done the exact same thing a minute before. Again I stress, I did not care that you shot the K4, but I did care that you decided to rant on range and drop an F bomb in my direction.
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20302247/vinkman2.ahf (http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20302247/vinkman2.ahf)
Here's the 45 second film of when you shot the K4 I was fighting. No big deal, probably not even worth watching for anyone out there.
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20301717/vinkman_rant.ahf (http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20301717/vinkman_rant.ahf) (warning, does contain some profanity)
This was absurd. I was fighting my butt off on the deck in the Ta152 with oil leak and all. I shoot at the p47n that had just attempted to HO the heck out of me just 10 seconds before. I then have to deal with a profanity laced rant on range? :huh
Vinkman, I'm sure you were just frustrated and took it out on me but you really should refrain from freaking out like this on range.
Open apology to all I offend on vox, including You Grizz. There are times when I can't stop my radio finger from pushing the button during rantings. I don't want to do it just happens! Of course, once a snarky exchange starts thing degrade rapidly. :D People who know me from these sparatic outbursts must think I'm a total love muffin, but I'm really only somewhat of a love muffin. What can I say, I'm competitive and can't always keep my cool. The focus of this post was to promise to use the radio for better purposes than whining. Funny how I'm quicker to whine on the radio, than to communicate. I may not be the only one to suffer from this. That's what I'm committed to changing. Hopefully better communication will lead to less whining, of course Rome wasn't built in a day, so bare with me. Let's hope communication is contagious.
Thanks.
Vinkman
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Rant aside, Tbh, I don't think any flack should have been directed my way. If you watch it from my perspective you will see I am just fighting on the deck defending myself.
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Conversely, if I was the P-47 driver, I would have been pissed if I didn't get the kill after dancing around with you trying to get position and then some Tempest jockey comes screaming in and pops your engine.
I would have done exactly what the P-47 driver did ... deny the meddling Tempest the kill that I was working hard for.
you make a great point slap-shot, that I hadn't considered. Thank you for that. I'm always willing to learn.