Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Mister Fork on January 17, 2010, 03:07:34 PM
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Guys, it's time to update our A&VSD list. We really really need your help.
I've bolded aircraft were we don't know the service dates. If you list a new service date or change, you need to list your reference. Saying "I think it was available in 1943" is not good enough.
This list is a very accurate collection from the hard work of this forum topic's members that include countless WWII aircraft historians and even HiTech staff who have helped us keep this list as accurate as possible. We wish to ensure it's kept up to date as much as possible and now is the time. Thanks for your assistance:
Aircraft and Vehcile Service Dates
Last Updated: November 15, 2005
Aircraft
USA
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43
B-24J ... 5-43
B-25C ... ???
B-25H ... ???
B-26B ... 5-42
C-47A ... 12-41
P-38G ... 11-42
P-38J ... 12-43(ETO) 2-44(PTO)
P-38L ... 7-44
P-39D ... ???
P-39Q ... ???
P-40B ... 1-41
P-40E ... 8-41
P-47D-11 ... 3-43(D5) to 1-44(D11)
P-47D-25 ... 5-44
P-47D-40 ... 1-45(ETO)
P-47M ... ???
P-47N ... 6-45
P-51B ... 12-43(ETO),8-44(CBI)
P51D ... 5-44(ETO),1-45(CBI&PTO)
F4F-4 ... 9-41(ETO),5-42(PTO)
FM-2 ... 6-44(ETO),10-44(PTO)
F6F-5 ... 7-44
F4U-1 ... 2-43(ETO),4-44(ETO)
F4U-1A ... ???
F4U-1D ... 4-44
F4U-1C ... 4-45
F4U-4 ... 4-45
F6F-5 ... 7-44
SBD-5 ... 5-43
TBM-3 ... 2-43
Britain
Boston MK III ... 5-41
Hurricane Mk I ... 5-40
Hurricane IIC ... 4-41
Hurricane IID ... 6-42
Lancaster III ... 3-42
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43(ETO),11-43(PTO&CBI)
Spitfire Mk IA ... 8-40
Seafire IIC ... 10-42,11-43(ETO)
Spitfire V ... 4-41
Spitfire VIII ... 7-43
Spitfire Mk IX ... 7-42
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 5-44,7-45(CBI)
Spitfire Mk XVI ... 7-44
Tempest V ... 6-44
Typhoon IB ... 6-43
Finland
B-239 Brewster ... ???
Soviet
Il-2 Type 3 ... 10-42
I-16 ... ???
La-5FN ... 3-43
La-7 ... 6-44
Yak-9T ... 1-43
Yak-9U ... 7/8-44
Italy
C.202 ... 11-41
C.205 ... 1-43
Japan
A6M2 ... 7-40
A6M5b ... 8-43
B5N2 ... 7-40
D3A-1 ... 7-40
Ki-61 ... 6-43
Ki-84-la ... 8-44 (CBI),10-44(PTO)
Ki-67 ... 4-44
N1K2-J ... 1-45
Germany
Ar 234B ... 12-44
Bf 109E-4 ... 5-40
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 6-42
Bf 109G-6 ... 2-43
Bf 109G-14 ... 7-44
Bf 109K-4 ... 10-44
Bf 110C-4b ... 8-40
Bf 110G-2 ... 5-42
Fw 190A-5 ... 6-43
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 12-44
Fw 190F-8 ... 4-44
Ju 88A-4 ... 5-41
Me 262 ... 10-44
Me 163 ... 9-44
Ta 152H ... 1-45
Vehicles
USA
LVT(A)2 ...2-44
LVT(A)4 ...3-44
M-3 Halftrack...3-41
M-8 ...9-42
M-16 ...5-43
Sherman VC ...?
Germany
SdKfz 251 ... ???
Ostwind ... 8-44
Panzer IV Type H ... 8-44
Tiger I ...8-42
Wirbelwind ... ???
Soviet
T-34/76 ... 2-43
T-34/85 ... ???
Theatres of Operations
PTO - Pacific
ETO - Europe
CBI - China-Burma-India/CHINA-BURMA-INDIA
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Dunno why you have the Spitfire Mk Ia listed as August, 1940. They were in combat over Dunkirk (May 24th to June 4th, 1940) and against German recon flights over Britain earlier than that. But for serious combat operations, Spitfire Mk Is should have a service date of 5-40.
If you need a reference, I'll just name a book that springs to mind, "Fly for Your Life", Robert Stanford Tuck's biography. He was flying Spitfires with 92 Squadron to cover the Dunkirk evacuation. On his first day over Dunkirk he scored a Bf109 and two Bf110s.
EDIT:
Hurricane Mk I should have a 4-40 date as it was used in the Norwegian Campaign, which started in April of 1940.
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Fork,
As I said in the other thread, the F4U-1D only hit the production lines in April, 1944. Units in the States didn't start receiving them until sometime after June or July 1944 (units training at MCAS Cherry Point in preparation for Project Danny in June 1944 were using 1s and 1As). The earliest date I can get for certain is VMF-511 and 512 transitioning to 1Ds in September while at MCAS Mojave. The first carrier-borne squadrons equipping 1Ds were VMFs-124 and 213. They were also the first carrier-borne squadrons to see combat which occurred as part of the Navy's first carrier operations of 1945. Considering the carrier-borne squadrons were most likely to be the first of the new Corsairs to arrive in the war zone, the 1D shouldn't be listed any earlier than January 1945.
The 1A is MUCH more complicated since the differentiation between the 1 and 1A was a later, back-dated addition due to the manner in which updates were introduced at whatever point they happened to be on in the production line. According to the CAF, the first 1A was accepted by the Navy in August, 1943. Other sources I can find aren't very specific, but a few note September 1943 as first combat based on squadron service records (VMF-214 equipped with 1As prior to their first tour under Boyington in September 1943). Since there was no specific "block" for the 1A and the designation was instead applied to F4U-1s that carried a certain set of updates (stall strip and bubble canopy appear to be the key differentiation. Early 1As still used the R-2800-8 engine, which was replaced with the -8(W) after the first few hundred airframes) the CAF date of August, or September 1943, would be an acceptable estimate.
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Ki-61 was around April or May of 1943.
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define service date please ...
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define service date please ...
Are you really this inept?
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no i saw no criteria for defining service date ...
remind me please ...
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According to Dean (America's Hundred Thousand) the P-39D was first delivered the the U.S. Military in April 1941. I have a couple books here that I can try to comb through tomorrow and may be able to get the dates for the B-25's.
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which p51d?
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Are you really this inept?
Thorsim makes a good point. There's often a BIG difference between when an aircraft was first accepted, and when it was first actively deployed to the war zone (IE, the first F4U-1s were given to VF-12 and VF-17 in July, 1942, but the aircraft didn't actually arrive in theater until February, 1943). When the aircraft was accepted into service is really rather unimportant, it's the date of its arrival in the war zone that really matters, especially if you're looking at its context in scenarios (to use the F4U example again, the first F4U-1Cs were pulled from the 1A production line in late-1943, but it would be inaccurate to use them in scenarios set any earlier than April 1945).
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Thorsim makes a good point. There's often a BIG difference between when an aircraft was first accepted, and when it was first actively deployed to the war zone (IE, the first F4U-1s were given to VF-12 and VF-17 in July, 1942, but the aircraft didn't actually arrive in theater until February, 1943). When the aircraft was accepted into service is really rather unimportant, it's the date of its arrival in the war zone that really matters, especially if you're looking at its context in scenarios (to use the F4U example again, the first F4U-1Cs were pulled from the 1A production line in late-1943, but it would be inaccurate to use them in scenarios set any earlier than April 1945).
Saxman, he just beats everything to death and it gets old.
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That may be true, but in this case it's a legitimate question.
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That may be true, but in this case it's a legitimate question.
Understood, however the following has happened with most of his posts. Whatever answer he's given, will not be good enough.
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that is just cuz i ask the questions you don't want to consider ...
Understood, however the following has happened with most of his posts. Whatever answer he's given, will not be good enough.
no point in asking for a non specified date, it will only lead to arguments.
also imo first combat kill or combat death are usually well documented and very specific,
first first enemy encounter is almost as "good", and first combat mission also usually well documented for most types. most often if you look the criteria above is confirmable in enemy AARs or other intel.
otherwise the arguments will be endless ...
fyi since the pony D has the built in rocket HPs it is a #25 block or later, and i believe a feb 45 or later entrant ...
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that is just cuz i ask the questions you don't want to consider ...
no point in asking for a non specified date, it will only lead to arguments.
also imo first combat kill or combat death are usually well documented and very specific,
first first enemy encounter is almost as "good", and first combat mission also usually well documented for most types.
otherwise the arguments will be endless ...
fyi since the pony D has the built in rocket HPs it is a #25 block or later, and i believe a feb 45 or later entrant ...
This is the part that gets me, we have... The aircraft its self (say the P-51D) are we looking for the 1st p51D's or are we looking for the 1st P-51D's with the ability to have 6 zero linght rockets with XXX Ave. Gas, and so on.
To me (a guy who has played the game long enough) we have a said aircraft, then sub groups of said aircraft, like the I-16 has 3 different gun packs with 3 different production dates (witch would pro sumably be 3 different service dates)
so are we going to sub group every aircraft we have with more than one gun pack / ord pack?
Or are we going to look for the 1st of any aircraft of that group IE: I-16 was used in July 1939 in the Second Sino-Japanese War but some gun packs we have came later.
I-16 t24 M63, 4 x 7.62 Shkas +/- drop tanks or FAB 100 or 10 x FAB15 (production mid 39 to v early 41)
I-16 t28 M63, 2 x 7.62 ShKas, 2 x 20 Shvak +/- drop tanks or FAB100 (production mid 39 to late 40)
I-16 t29 M63, 2 x 7.62 ShKas, 1 x 12.7UBS +/- drop tanks or 6 x RS82 (production mid 40 to mid 41)
I think we should take out time to figure out just what we want.
So without picking a fight I think it is correct in asking for more info of what we are looking for. I am more than willing to help. :salute
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in some cases the armament loads were options for a type, like in the case of the pony D, and did not constitute a type change.
type change by load out would be a CM nightmare, i think.
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Another example i have from the Aircraft Encyclopedia: The Ar-234B-0 first flew in June of 1944, this being the prototype of the production model. It was then issued to evaluation units and used with 3 reconnaissance Staffeln for high altitude flights over britain. (here im assuming there is more then one by now) A fourth Staffel recived the ar234 in Italy.
But it wasnt untill the start of the "Blitz" part of the Battle of the bulge that KG76 used it operationally in Sept. 1944.
So do we go with the recon flights of the few small groups (of witch i dont know the 1st flights yet) or do we go with Sep 1944 with the first Geschwader flight?
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same with the dora and the 262, you will find the allies getting shot down and the germans deploying them had very different ideas as to what constituted operational ...
that is why i like the engaged with enemy, or kills in or kills by, most of those dates agree.
even the missions are fuzzy as to "operational" and its meaning, which was certainly different between the combatants at least ...
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same with the dora and the 262, you will find the allies getting shot down and the germans deploying them had very different ideas as to what constituted operational ...
that is why i like the engaged with enemy, or kills in or kills by, most of those dates agree.
even the missions are fuzzy as to "operational" and its meaning, which was certainly different between the combatants at least ...
First squadron to be equipped with the Spitfire Mk XIV received their first on in Dec. 1943 and had squadron strength in Jan. 1944. First kill by a Spitfire Mk XIV was in March of 1944. The list has the Spitfire Mk XIV listed as May 1944, when they started doing offensive actions with them.
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it must be very confusing and frustrating finding out that you were shot down by a plane the wasn't actually deployed yet :x
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I found the following in "North American B-25 Mitchell The Ultimate Look: From Drawing Board to Flying Arsenal" by William Wolf
B-25Cwas first delivered in January 1941
B-25Hwas first delivered in August 1943
This book is primary concerned with the development of the B-25 and seems to be less concerned with the operational details I'll have to do some more digging to see if I can find first operational use.
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another thing to consider is that as the war progressed how do you handle updated replacement aircraft.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Bott4.jpg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Bott4.jpg
as this photo clearly shows do to pragmatic reasons squadrons were operating many different types on missions because that is what they had, that looks like a "razorback" pony in the #4 slot (poor choice for tail end charlie) ...
this just calls operational definitions into an even more difficult light and shows how difficult the OPs goals actually are.
IMO all this info should be posted by the game developers as much as possible right down to the block numbers of the planes they choose to model with all the history of the type including the specific history of all the skinned airframes whenever possible. this would be a service to the community and serve to provide an interesting read for all of us who take the historic aspect of the game seriously
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You can also see that one of the Ds in that photo is from a later block as it has the tail fillet.
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another thing to consider is that as the war progressed how do you handle updated replacement aircraft.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Bott4.jpg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Bott4.jpg
as this photo clearly shows do to pragmatic reasons squadrons were operating many different types on missions because that is what they had, that looks like a "razorback" pony in the #4 slot (poor choice for tail end charlie) ...
this just calls operational definitions into an even more difficult light and shows how difficult the OPs goals actually are.
IMO all this info should be posted by the game developers as much as possible right down to the block numbers of the planes they choose to model with all the history of the type including the specific history of all the skinned airframes whenever possible. this would be a service to the community and serve to provide an interesting read for all of us who take the historic aspect of the game seriously
All 4 P51's are of different model thats why the photo was taken. I cant recall exactily why they did this but im 100% positive they are all different. the end one is a P51B you have a P51D and P-51K and i cant tell what the other one is. I can tell you the flight was stricktly to take this photo though. but it was during the war at least.
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i had no information saying this was a staged photo ...
however my point is replacement aircraft were whatever was being produced and delivered and specific types flown
on any given day were not likely to be all the same after a little attrition had taken place ...
not out of the realm of possibilities that some of a type were used before an entire squadron with the new type had rotated into the area.
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All 4 P51's are of different model thats why the photo was taken. I cant recall exactily why they did this but im 100% positive they are all different. the end one is a P51B you have a P51D and P-51K and i cant tell what the other one is. I can tell you the flight was stricktly to take this photo though. but it was during the war at least.
left to right
413410 > 44-13253/14052 P-51D-5-NA
413926 > 44-13253/14052 P-51D-5-NA
413568 > 44-13253/14052 P-51D-5-NA
210**11 > either a P-51C-1-NT or -10-NT
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i had no information saying this was a staged photo ...
however my point is replacement aircraft were whatever was being produced and delivered and specific types flown
on any given day were not likely to be all the same after a little attrition had taken place ...
not out of the realm of possibilities that some of a type were used before an entire squadron with the new type had rotated into the area.
this is true as well (mainly for bombers more than fighters i think). From what i ahave seen when new bombers came over with there crews they almost always got taken away right away and put into action relitivly soon there after, and the crew when they were ready for combat ops got an older beat up version of there new aircraft they just flew over to the combat theater. I dont think anyone waited for a full group beore using there new B24J's
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How is 413926 the same as the other two when it clearly has a different tail on it? I don't doubt you if you have the proper info, but it seems odd and I'm sure i read about it as i read 2 books with 2 of the 4 pilots and i know they said they were all different. maybe they were wrong.
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How is 413926 the same as the other two when it clearly has a different tail on it? I don't doubt you if you have the proper info, but it seems odd and I'm sure i read about it as i read 2 books with 2 of the 4 pilots and i know they said they were all different. maybe they were wrong.
Because the fin fillet was a mod added to earlier models.
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it goes both ways too ...
i.e. one of the new ones gets shot up and an older one flies while the new one is down for repairs ...
milo is correct about the mod ...
since the model in the game is such a late version i am not sure, and pretty much doubt, that either the 8th or 9th AF had completely rotated into it before the end of the war in europe ...
that i am not sure about though ...
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SERVICE DATE - means the date it went into service... meaning the date it was delivered to active squadrons and/or date it was in operational use. We use these service dates to help build our setups so that when we do add an aircraft to a particular FSO/SEA event/Etc the dates listed in this list and our historical dates include aircraft that were in use at that time.
We've been maintaining this list (well I have been anyways), for almost 7 years. It was really due for an update.
So far I have:
Hurricane Mk I ... 4-40 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) *
Spitfire Mk IA ... 5-40 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) *
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 3-44(http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) *
B-25C ... 1-41(http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg)#
B-25H ... 8-43(http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg)#
P-39D ... 4-41 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg)#
F4U-1A ... 8-43 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) !
F4U-1D ... 8-44 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) !
Ar-234B ... 9-44(http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg)@
(Thanks guys)
Still looking for:
P-39Q... ?
P-47M... ?
B-239 ...?
I-16 ...?
Sherman VC ...?
Wirbelwind ...?
T-34/85 ...?
Sources:
* Karnak
# Soulyss
! Saxman
@ USCH
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SERVICE DATE - means the date it went into service... meaning the date it was delivered to active squadrons and/or date it was in operational use. We use these service dates to help build our setups so that when we do add an aircraft to a particular FSO/SEA event/Etc the dates listed in this list and our historical dates include aircraft that were in use at that time.
We've been maintaining this list (well I have been anyways), for almost 7 years. It was really due for an update.
So far I have:
Hurricane Mk I ... 4-40 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) *
Spitfire Mk IA ... 5-40 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) *
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 3-44(http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) *
B-25C ... 1-41(http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg)#
B-25H ... 8-43(http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg)#
P-39D ... 4-41 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg)#
F4U-1A ... 8-43 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) !
F4U-1D ... 8-44 (http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg) !
Ar-234B ... 9-44(http://members.shaw.ca/mr.fork/newdate.jpg)@
(Thanks guys)
Still looking for:
P-39Q... ?
P-47M... ?
B-239 ...?
I-16 ...?
Sherman VC ...?
Wirbelwind ...?
T-34/85 ...?
Sources:
* Karnak
# Soulyss
! Saxman
@ USCH
"and or" meaning the first of either of the dates i assume ...
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me-262A-1a may 1944(Green: Famous fighters)
FW-190A-1 spring 41 (Green: Famous fighters) which begs a question, what should be done about introductory types that are not modeled in the game such as the 190As and p-51Ds ?
FW-190D-9 winter 43-44 (Green: Famous fighters)
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The Hurricane Mk.I entered service with the RAF in January 1938, when No.111 Squadron began converting onto the type from its Gloster Gauntlets. The variable-pitch propeller and metal-winged upgrade became operational during the last few months before the beginning of the war, although many two-bladers were still in service; the same prop mod was made to the Spitfire during the same period. By the outbreak of war, 18 RAF squadrons were fully equipped with the Hurricane.
The first service Spitfire Mk.I was delivered on 4th August 1938 to No.19 Squadron RAF at Duxford, where that illustrious unit was flying Gloster Gladiators. The squadron was up to its full strength of sixteen Spitfires by the end of the year. Up to 3rd September 1939 the RAF had accepted delivery of 306 Spitfires, of which 187 formed the full equipment of ten squadrons (Nos. 19, 41, 54, 65, 66, 72, 74, 602, 603 and 611) and part of the equipment of one more (No.609).
The Griffon-engined Spitfire Mk.XIV entered service with the RAF in Spring 1944; No.610 Squadron at Exeter re-equipped during January and February, quickly followed by No.91 and 322 (Dutch) Squadrons. All three were fully operational by June, when the Germans opened the V-1 bombardment of London; together with No.41 Squadron flying Mk.XIIs, these became the most successful Spitfire units combating the 'doodle-bug' flying bombs.
Sources: Hurricane At War by Chaz Bowyer; 1974, Ian Allan Ltd., Shepperton, ISBN 0 7110 0564 8.
Spitfire, A Complete Fighting History by Alfred Price, a collected reprint of Spitfire at War Vols. 1 and 2 published by Ian Allan Ltd;
Bookmart Ltd., Leicester, ISBN 1 85648 015 1.
The Spitfire Story by Alfred Price; 1982, Jane's, London, no ISBN.
Might be able to find the time for the others, I'll see.
Hope this helps - cheers!
:cool:
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Some of my own research:
P-39Q ... 8-43 - can someone confirm?
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Fw-190D-9 .. 10-44 - Weapons of Warfare, V10, pp1064-1066.
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SERVICE DATE - means the date it went into service... meaning the date it was delivered to active squadrons and/or date it was in operational use.
green says jg3 had them and RAF confirms engagements winter 43/44
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green says jg3 had them and RAF confirms engagements winter 43/44
There were never even any prototypes for the Fw 190D-9 until early 1944.
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The Hurricane Mk.I entered service with the RAF in January 1938, when No.111 Squadron began converting onto the type from its Gloster Gauntlets. The variable-pitch propeller and metal-winged upgrade became operational during the last few months before the beginning of the war, although many two-bladers were still in service; the same prop mod was made to the Spitfire during the same period. By the outbreak of war, 18 RAF squadrons were fully equipped with the Hurricane.
The first service Spitfire Mk.I was delivered on 4th August 1938 to No.19 Squadron RAF at Duxford, where that illustrious unit was flying Gloster Gladiators. The squadron was up to its full strength of sixteen Spitfires by the end of the year. Up to 3rd September 1939 the RAF had accepted delivery of 306 Spitfires, of which 187 formed the full equipment of ten squadrons (Nos. 19, 41, 54, 65, 66, 72, 74, 602, 603 and 611) and part of the equipment of one more (No.609).
A version of the spit1 and hurr1 were operational on those dates, maybe. But as you say, these were early models with 2-blade fixed pitch props, less horsepower, in the case of the hurricane fabric covered wings.
The Spit1 we have in-game has 100 octane fuel horsepower, which is specific to the BOB time frame, rather than the traditional 1939 date the early models became operational. As for the Hurr1 we have in-game I don't know what octane it has (other than it's over-modeled in a number of ways), but I suspect it's also more BOB-era, as our Spit1 is. That's why HTC put them in, for BOB!
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The first long nosed 190 was a rebuilt former FW 190A-0, which was first tested in May 1944, the second one in August.
The design drawings for the D-9 series were completed in March 1944.
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"A version of the spit1 and hurr1 were operational on those dates, maybe."
My word, don't you split hairs? They were operational on those dates, no doubt about it. I've used secondary information because I can't spare the time to visit Hendon to obtain primary data just to satisfy those who don't like to admit that the RAF had to hold the line for democracy until December 1941.
:cool:
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yea i usually go to bookie's as he has so many original documents and says sept 44
http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/Index.html
but i assure you Green's book is as i have stated
scanning the internet i see support for both sets of dates but that does not really lend credibility to either ...
i always thought jg26 and jg51 got the new FWs first but Green says jg3 another source says jg2 ...
it is somewhat a mess which was my point all along in this thread, how do you decide ...
that is why i suggested enemy contact, although in the case of the D9 there is quite possibly confusion over whether it was a production d9. however i think prototypes engaging in combat over the channel very suspect ...
can anyone find a RAF report of a long nose as early as fall winter or spring 44?
there is also confusion caused by the introduction of the TA-152 and the D-9s treatment as a transitional airframe.
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Fork,
Reread what I said about the F4U-1D. I can find no records of STATESIDE squadrons receiving them until September, 1944 at least. VMF-124 and 213 were the first squadrons to operate Corsairs from carriers, and THEY weren't operating in the war zone until the beginning of 1945.
I can find NO record of F4U-1Ds assigned to active squadrons (read: squadrons that were actually deployed IN the engagement area) prior to January 1945.
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Fork,
Reread what I said about the F4U-1D. I can find no records of STATESIDE squadrons receiving them until September, 1944 at least. VMF-124 and 213 were the first squadrons to operate Corsairs from carriers, and THEY weren't operating in the war zone until the beginning of 1945.
I can find NO record of F4U-1Ds assigned to active squadrons (read: squadrons that were actually deployed IN the engagement area) prior to January 1945.
Neither can I. W&W lists them entering testing mid 1944 and delivery there-after but no date on service entry... hmmm.
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The first long nosed 190 was a rebuilt former FW 190A-0, which was first tested in May 1944, the second one in August.
The design drawings for the D-9 series were completed in March 1944.
Correct - as does W&W state. It entered active duty in October 1944.
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"A version of the spit1 and hurr1 were operational on those dates, maybe."
My word, don't you split hairs? They were operational on those dates, no doubt about it. I've used secondary information because I can't spare the time to visit Hendon to obtain primary data just to satisfy those who don't like to admit that the RAF had to hold the line for democracy until December 1941.
:cool:
My, how uppity.
You totally missed my point.
The question isn't "When did a plane start service" it's "when did the plane we have in AH start service" -- meaning our specific variant. We don't have the first production models of the Hurr1 and the Spit1. We have the later performances, typical of late 1940, NOT of late 1938.
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All 4 P51's are of different model thats why the photo was taken. I cant recall exactily why they did this but im 100% positive they are all different. the end one is a P51B you have a P51D and P-51K and i cant tell what the other one is. I can tell you the flight was stricktly to take this photo though. but it was during the war at least.
Before you guys get too carried away on the 51s.
The photo is 3 51Ds and a B Pony. It is from a photo op flight but they are all combat birds. The 51D with the Fillet is obviously the newest bird, but the Group Commander is in the lead D-5 without the fillet. There is no 51K in that photo.
This image is from November 44 and shows the 359th FG on the return from an escort. Note the D models and the B/C models. Both with added fin fillets, and one with a Malcom hood and one without. B/Cs were in combat until the end in the ETO. No rocket rails in the ETO or MTO for USAAF Mustangs. They did get used a bit by the Iwo Jima Mustangs in the summer of 45.
All you can hope for is rough dates too as it depends on theater as well. You had P38Gs still in combat until at least May 44 in the MTO. Replacement 38 pilots who had trained on J models in the States were surprised to go into combat in earlier, less capable models of the 38 then they'd trained on. The MTO also got 38Hs from the ETO. In the ETO you can find early J models still in combat at the end alongside the latest power assisted control L models.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/51sMixed.jpg)
Just watch the Spit and 109 guys get going if you start getting too picky about which variants were in combat when too. There were many variants of the Spitfire Vb for example. The game has only one and it's the earliest and least capable. The 109G guys could tell you all about them too :)
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Sherman Firefly entered service in April-May 44 just prior to D-Day. 200 were in service on D-Day with total production totalling 2139 coversions by the end of the war. Source is "Sherman Firefly" by Mark Hayword.
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same situation in WB, and was very problematic event/RPS wise as there is always hard feelings when you point out that the p51 modeled in the game is a model that post dates the dora and 262 by some six months ...
Before you guys get too carried away on the 51s.
The photo is 3 51Ds and a B Pony. It is from a photo op flight but they are all combat birds. The 51D with the Fillet is obviously the newest bird, but the Group Commander is in the lead D-5 without the fillet. There is no 51K in that photo.
This image is from November 44 and shows the 359th FG on the return from an escort. Note the D models and the B/C models. Both with added fin fillets, and one with a Malcom hood and one without. B/Cs were in combat until the end in the ETO. No rocket rails in the ETO or MTO for USAAF Mustangs. They did get used a bit by the Iwo Jima Mustangs in the summer of 45.
All you can hope for is rough dates too as it depends on theater as well. You had P38Gs still in combat until at least May 44 in the MTO. Replacement 38 pilots who had trained on J models in the States were surprised to go into combat in earlier, less capable models of the 38 then they'd trained on. The MTO also got 38Hs from the ETO. In the ETO you can find early J models still in combat at the end alongside the latest power assisted control L models.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/51sMixed.jpg)
Just watch the Spit and 109 guys get going if you start getting too picky about which variants were in combat when too. There were many variants of the Spitfire Vb for example. The game has only one and it's the earliest and least capable. The 109G guys could tell you all about them too :)
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Re: Fw 190 D-9
The first unit to receive them was III./JG 54 with 18 aircraft delivered in mid-September 1944. Reequipment continued into October when two Staffeln were assigned to the jet airfields of Achmer and Hesepe as direct fighter cover. (Urbanke, "First in Combat with Dora-9")
Re: Flakpanzer IV "Wirbelwind"
Prototype was built by SS-Panzerregiment 12 at the beginning of 1944. The first factory-produced Wirbelwinds came from Ostbau-Sagan in July 1944 and until the factory was overrun by the Red Army in February 1945 between 85 and 122 Panzer IV were converted into Wirbelwinds there (according to report of Heereswaffenamt).
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Re: Fw 190 D-9
The first unit to receive them was III./JG 54 with 18 aircraft delivered in mid-September 1944. Reequipment continued into October when two Staffeln were assigned to the jet airfields of Achmer and Hesepe as direct fighter cover. (Urbanke, "First in Combat with Dora-9")
Re: Flakpanzer IV "Wirbelwind"
Prototype was built by SS-Panzerregiment 12 at the beginning of 1944. The first factory-produced Wirbelwinds came from Ostbau-Sagan in July 1944 and until the factory was overrun by the Red Army in February 1945 between 85 and 122 Panzer IV were converted into Wirbelwinds there (according to report of Heereswaffenamt).
The Dora at the boost level in-game was ready for deployment the end of Dec 1944. It surely follows it couldn't actually be in the field until Jan 45 at the earliest?
Been pointed out numerous times.
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and the p51 with available rockets on flush hard points ?
what is the understood service date for that FM ?
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and the p51 with available rockets on flush hard points ?
what is the understood service date for that FM ?
Performance of the 51 didn't change. The rocket rail equipped 51s appear to have first been used in May 45. I've yet to find any photo evidence of them in the ETO or MTO, just the Iwo Jima Mustangs. There were RAF Mustangs in the MTO with rocket rails similar to the Typhoon earlier then that obviously and they did carry the bazooka rocket tubes earlier as well.
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The Dora at the boost level in-game was ready for deployment the end of Dec 1944. It surely follows it couldn't actually be in the field until Jan 45 at the earliest?
Been pointed out numerous times.
Impossible to tell. It is known, however, that at least JG 2 and JG 26 received a full load of new Doras in December 1944 and went to support "Wacht am Rhein" with them. So it's one of several possibilities.
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it's performance did change at least in the sense that it can carry the rockets without a speed penalty after they are fired, unlike most other FMs, also performance change is not a criteria for this discussion.
it is somewhat "shifty" to deploy a may 1945 aircraft as if it came out in fall 43 or fall winter 43/44 ...
this is hard to sort out, but we should seek equity. however you look at it the ponyD 25 block in game should either be considered a may 1945 plane, or all earliest FMs of a type should be made available when the first models of that type were introduced for fairness sake meaning the 190A5 gets used as if it were the first 190A date wise.
same with any other first FM of a type ...
i wish i could find out why Green thinks jg3 had the d9 in winter 43/44 though, that has bugged me for years.
Performance of the 51 didn't change. The rocket rail equipped 51s appear to have first been used in May 45. I've yet to find any photo evidence of them in the ETO or MTO, just the Iwo Jima Mustangs. There were RAF Mustangs in the MTO with rocket rails similar to the Typhoon earlier then that obviously and they did carry the bazooka rocket tubes earlier as well.
Bookie has an order of battle showing jg2 with d9s in sept 44
Impossible to tell. It is known, however, that at least JG 2 and JG 26 received a full load of new Doras in December 1944 and went to support "Wacht am Rhein" with them. So it's one of several possibilities.
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According to www.ww2.dk (and, IIRC, Urbanke) the very first D-9 of JG 2 came to the Geschwaderstab in November 1944. I. and III. Gruppe received a full compliment in December (see Flugzeugbestands- und -bewegungsmeldungen at the bottom of the JG 2-specific page there).
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it's performance did change at least in the sense that it can carry the rockets without a speed penalty after they are fired, unlike most other FMs, also performance change is not a criteria for this discussion.
it is somewhat "shifty" to deploy a may 1945 aircraft as if it came out in fall 43 or fall winter 43/44 ...
this is hard to sort out, but we should seek equity. however you look at it the ponyD 25 block in game should either be considered a may 1945 plane, or all earliest FMs of a type should be made available when the first models of that type were introduced for fairness sake meaning the 190A5 gets used as if it were the first 190A date wise.
same with any other first FM of a type ...
i wish i could find out why Green thinks jg3 had the d9 in winter 43/44 though, that has bugged me for years.
Bookie has an order of battle showing jg2 with d9s in sept 44
Clearly Allied intel knew of the D9 coming and the word had spread as there are Allied combat reports claiming to have run into long nosed 190s in early 44 and through the summer of 44. I seem to recall that Green corrected that claim at some point.
As for the 51D. Short of the rocket rails, the d-25 performed like the earlier D models. Outside of modeling every detail on the 51s starting with the First 51B models without fuselage fuel tanks, to the next with fuselage tanks, to adding the malcom hood, then the fin fillet, then the D-5 Mustang with no fin fillet, then a retrofitted D-5 with the fillet, D10, D15, D20 etc. It seems to me the D model in game allows for the widest variety of use without modeling every little bit independently and adding that many more planes.
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The first i-16 was produced in 1934
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Clearly Allied intel knew of the D9 coming and the word had spread as there are Allied combat reports claiming to have run into long nosed 190s in early 44 and through the summer of 44. I seem to recall that Green corrected that claim at some point.
To bad he didn't correct the 109 having MG151 cowl cannons.;)
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From America's Hundred Thousand by Dean.
P-39Q was first delivered in May, 1943. I don't see any data on date of first combat.
P-47M was first delivered December, 1944. The 56th Fighter Group gets its first P-47M on January 3, 1945.
B-239 was first delivered January, 1940. The B-239 first arrives in Finland in April, 1940 and enters service supposedly quickly.
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Awesome. This is about 6th thread where the "Iwo Jima Mustangs" come up. Nice hijack thorsim!
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how is being specific a highjack in a thread about specific dates for aircraft introduction ???
my point about the mustang is that we should not treat planes differently and what is good for the mustang re: model and the date that is chosen to allow it's use should be the same for all other types where the first model of a type is not modeled ...
this is probably brought up so often because it is an "issue" worth discussing and sorting out.
your post is clearly a good example of why this is called the AH boards ...
Awesome. This is about 6th thread where the "Iwo Jima Mustangs" come up. Nice hijack thorsim!
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how is being specific a highjack in a thread about specific dates for aircraft introduction ???
my point about the mustang is that we should not treat planes differently and what is good for the mustang re: model and the date that is chosen to allow it's use should be the same for all other types where the first model of a type is not modeled ...
this is probably brought up so often because it is an "issue" worth discussing and sorting out.
your post is clearly a good example of why this is called the AH boards ...
OK so your issue with the Mustang is the rocket rails? Outside of the MA I don't ever recall anyone using them. The last scenario to use Mustangs allowed the pilots the option to take a B or a D since both were still flying together in the ETO Fighter Groups and didn't use rockets at all.
Based on this you are suggesting the intro date for the AH P51D is May 45? So to have the May 44 intro date for the 51D you'd only allow it if it was the D-5 with no fin fillet? Considering they're all cartoons anyway, that's just silly.
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no i don't care when you allow it, just approach all the other introductions of all the other aircraft the same ...
quit pretending there are not several other significant advantages to the block 25 pony in the game and the first D that was introduced on the date you want to use, that sir is just as obviously disingenuous as the specific id being left off the thing in the first place.
all you guys crying about the accuracy that provide you with advantage and then in the same thread totally ignoring something so wrong because it would make things a little more difficult is a real problem when trying to balance the game, or the events in the game. just treat all the planes fairly, because that is fair.
it is really just that simple.
OK so your issue with the Mustang is the rocket rails? Outside of the MA I don't ever recall anyone using them. The last scenario to use Mustangs allowed the pilots the option to take a B or a D since both were still flying together in the ETO Fighter Groups and didn't use rockets at all.
Based on this you are suggesting the intro date for the AH P51D is May 45? So to have the May 44 intro date for the 51D you'd only allow it if it was the D-5 with no fin fillet? Considering they're all cartoons anyway, that's just silly.
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Clearly Allied intel knew of the D9 coming and the word had spread as there are Allied combat reports claiming to have run into long nosed 190s in early 44 and through the summer of 44. I seem to recall that Green corrected that claim at some point.
did he give a reason for his confusion along with the correction, i would be interested in that ...
BTW my copy is ©1975 ...
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did he give a reason for his confusion along with the correction, i would be interested in that ...
BTW my copy is ©1975 ...
I don't recall where I read it, but in essence that date has been dismissed as a mistake.
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no i don't care when you allow it, just approach all the other introductions of all the other aircraft the same ...
quit pretending there are not several other significant advantages to the block 25 pony in the game and the first D that was introduced on the date you want to use, that sir is just as obviously disingenuous as the specific id being left off the thing in the first place.
all you guys crying about the accuracy that provide you with advantage and then in the same thread totally ignoring something so wrong because it would make things a little more difficult is a real problem when trying to balance the game, or the events in the game. just treat all the planes fairly, because that is fair.
it is really just that simple.
This guy talking to you doesn't fly the 51D or the 38L for that matter. I'm not looking for an advantage. I'd be curious as to what you think the significant advantages of the D-25 were btw outside of the ability to have the zero length rocket rails? The fin fillet was retrofitted to D-5s and was there from the D-10 on in production. The tail warning radar system was retrofitted to, and wasn't of much use. I don't recall our 51D having it in AH. Fuel tankage is the same. Can't tell if the dash over the instrument panal is the D-25 version in the game. K-14 gunsight was retrofitted to earlier D models.
Please explain the significant advantages of the D-25
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well firstly since they don't model the reason for the fillet that the USAAF felt strongly enough about to retrofit the entire fleet it is not an accurate representation of the airframe delivered in 43 ...
second AH does not model field mods or retrofits (for good reason) and even if they did they would not accurately represent the aircraft at the date of it's introduction would it?
after all the first p-51Ds were not even bubble canopy airframes.
to be clear i am not suggesting that the A8 or A9, or g14 be available when the first 190A or 109G was introduced which is what you are arguing for currently with the pony. what i am saying is that the first model of a type in the game be available when the first model in TRW was appropriate for the situation represented in the game or the event.
so currently for example the Fw190A5 should represent the A3 or the A1 or A2 if it those planes were in the battle or time period represented in the game, just like you are suggesting the 1945 model P-51D in the game represent the early model P-51Ds when they are appropriate.
i don't see the problem with equity such as i have described here.
BTW "you" is intended to be colloquial not specific, sorry if it confused you ...
This guy talking to you doesn't fly the 51D or the 38L for that matter. I'm not looking for an advantage. I'd be curious as to what you think the significant advantages of the D-25 were btw outside of the ability to have the zero length rocket rails? The fin fillet was retrofitted to D-5s and was there from the D-10 on in production. The tail warning radar system was retrofitted to, and wasn't of much use. I don't recall our 51D having it in AH. Fuel tankage is the same. Can't tell if the dash over the instrument panal is the D-25 version in the game. K-14 gunsight was retrofitted to earlier D models.
Please explain the significant advantages of the D-25
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I don't recall where I read it, but in essence that date has been dismissed as a mistake.
weird they did not address it in a book that was reprinted for 18 years with the error, if it was a mistake ...
i always thought Green got his dates from allied encounters with the long noses AARs from allied pilots who were encountering an operational testing groups the germans used that so often results in the confusion in these discussions ...
i just thought it was a semantic issue about what the Luftwaffe considered "fully operational" as in the case with the 262.
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well firstly since they don't model the reason for the fillet that the USAAF felt strongly enough about to retrofit the entire fleet it is not an accurate representation of the airframe delivered in 43 ...
second AH does not model field mods or retrofits (for good reason) and even if they did they would not accurately represent the aircraft at the date of it's introduction would it?
after all the first p-51Ds were not even bubble canopy airframes.
to be clear i am not suggesting that the A8 or A9, or g14 be available when the first 190A or 109G was introduced which is what you are arguing for currently with the pony. what i am saying is that the first model of a type in the game be available when the first model in TRW was appropriate for the situation represented in the game or the event.
so currently for example the Fw190A5 should represent the A3 or the A1 or A2 if it those planes were in the battle or time period represented in the game, just like you are suggesting the 1945 model P-51D in the game represent the early model P-51Ds when they are appropriate.
i don't see the problem with equity such as i have described here.
BTW "you" is intended to be colloquial not specific, sorry if it confused you ...
The 51D prototype was a B model modified with a bubble canopy. All D models had that canopy. Depending on whether it was a Dallas or Inglewood built 51D the canopy had slight differences in shape, your comment that the D model started out without the bubble canopy is inaccurate. The P51B was first used in December 43 and did not have the Malcom hood. Those started to show up in late February, early March on some of the Group or Squadron leader birds. If you are suggesting the fin fillet is a significant change, then you are reaching in terms of your definition of significant.
In terms of the 190s, for scenario use, if the A5 is the earliest 190 we have, then it would represent the early 190s.
If I find the stuff on Green's D9 mistake I'll post it. Examples of Allied claims of D9s prior to them being in service. The 56th FG claimed 3 D9s on June 8, 1944. The 370th FG claimed 6 D9s on June 20, 1944. Clearly the word was out of a new 190 in the works and folks started seeing them.
Of course there were claims for 109Fs too in the summer of 44, so folks aircraft recognition in the heat of the fight wasn't always right.
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no i was relying on green again if there was never a D without a bubble canopy then i was misled by Mr. Green again ...
i agree the vertical stab adjustment did not do much and the lateral stability "problem" was never "solved" in the 51 however it is not represented very prominently in the games so it seems HTC consider it was solved and that imo constitutes a significant change when compared to the handling problems represented in other airframes in the game.
the difference in the airframes is more pronounced between the A and D 190s than it is in the F and G 109s and like i said there are order of battle for JGs being operational with the D9 in sept 44 so a few months for operational testing does not seem unlikely ...
one must remember that the USAAF claims were film documented inmost cases so a "new" 190 in combat would have been well reviewed by intel, or one must assume it would.
but thanks for the input, the powers that be just need to look at the "operational testing" done by the Luftwaffe and decide if it was significantly different than the dissemination of information from the first combat operators of the allied types to the squadrons that received the respective airframes later.
otherwise there is some confusion caused by kills by and deaths of aircraft that were "not yet operational" ...
just need to find an equitable way to handle this all, and it's not easy to do so everyone is justifiably satisfied.
The 51D prototype was a B model modified with a bubble canopy. All D models had that canopy. Depending on whether it was a Dallas or Inglewood built 51D the canopy had slight differences in shape, your comment that the D model started out without the bubble canopy is inaccurate. The P51B was first used in December 43 and did not have the Malcom hood. Those started to show up in late February, early March on some of the Group or Squadron leader birds. If you are suggesting the fin fillet is a significant change, then you are reaching in terms of your definition of significant.
In terms of the 190s, for scenario use, if the A5 is the earliest 190 we have, then it would represent the early 190s.
If I find the stuff on Green's D9 mistake I'll post it. Examples of Allied claims of D9s prior to them being in service. The 56th FG claimed 3 D9s on June 8, 1944. The 370th FG claimed 6 D9s on June 20, 1944. Clearly the word was out of a new 190 in the works and folks started seeing them.
Of course there were claims for 109Fs too in the summer of 44, so folks aircraft recognition in the heat of the fight wasn't always right.
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Performance is what really matters to me, in terms of if an aircraft in AH is an appropriate stand in. P-51D Block 25 running on 100 octane fuel is a very reasonable stand in for a P-51D Block 5 running on 100 octane. Their performance would be all but identical, and that slight difference would be due to the slight lateral stability improvement of the fillet. Using a Bf109G-14 in place of a Bf109G-6 would not be appropriate as the Bf109G-14's performance is far higher than the Bf109G-6's and thus such a substitution would greatly alter the balance of the opposing forces in the scenario.
The worst stand in that I recall in AH was a Med. Theater scenario's use of the Typhoon as a stand in for the Beaufighter. Even the Mosquito, which wasn't in the game at the time, would have been, in my mind, inappropriate for the scenario.
I think using our Spitfire LF.Mk VIII as a stand in for the Spitfire LF.Mk IXc is appropriate as the performance of the two aircraft is very similar, being much closer than the Spitfire F.Mk IX's.
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Um, the LW arena is not the '44 arena...it encompasses to the very end of the war. So the exact intro date of the P-51D modeled is abit of a moot point.
You can make the P-51D do a very flat spin in AHII btw. And a nice wingover for that matter. Since most Ponies are in the MA are flown at 300-500mph IAS instead of on the ragged edge, it doesn't make much difference.
The A-5 IS used to represent the earliest 190s in scenarios. Unfortunately, its top speed IS rather 190 A-4'ish....
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Um, the LW arena is not the '44 arena...it encompasses to the very end of the war. So the exact intro date of the P-51D modeled is abit of a moot point.
You can make the P-51D do a very flat spin in AHII btw. And a nice wingover for that matter. Since most Ponies are in the MA are flown at 300-500mph IAS instead of on the ragged edge, it doesn't make much difference.
The A-5 IS used to represent the earliest 190s in scenarios. Unfortunately, its top speed IS rather 190 A-4'ish....
It DOES matter a bit for aircraft that straddle the periods, though.
The F4U-1A first appeared in 1943, making her a Mid War bird. However the version we have is from much later in the production run more appropriate for 1944, which makes her Late War.
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no i was relying on green again if there was never a D without a bubble canopy then i was misled by Mr. Green again ...
i agree the vertical stab adjustment did not do much and the lateral stability "problem" was never "solved" in the 51 however it is not represented very prominently in the games so it seems HTC consider it was solved and that imo constitutes a significant change when compared to the handling problems represented in other airframes in the game.
the difference in the airframes is more pronounced between the A and D 190s than it is in the F and G 109s and like i said there are order of battle for JGs being operational with the D9 in sept 44 so a few months for operational testing does not seem unlikely ...
one must remember that the USAAF claims were film documented inmost cases so a "new" 190 in combat would have been well reviewed by intel, or one must assume it would.
but thanks for the input, the powers that be just need to look at the "operational testing" done by the Luftwaffe and decide if it was significantly different than the dissemination of information from the first combat operators of the allied types to the squadrons that received the respective airframes later.
otherwise there is some confusion caused by kills by and deaths of aircraft that were "not yet operational" ...
just need to find an equitable way to handle this all, and it's not easy to do so everyone is justifiably satisfied.
The Ki-61 in the Spring of 1942, Lt. Umekawa was on a test flight and stumbled onto the Doolittle Raiders Mission. He pursued one of the 25's and had to break off because of lack of fuel and the Machine Guns were acting up and not yet finalized.
Again, you nit pick the "never was" and try to bend fact with your delusion filled rationale. Welcome to my Ignore List, so other people can waste their time talking to a tap dancer.
I predicted your "equitable way to handle this all" on Page 1. You delivered.
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... Welcome to my Ignore List ...
ahh it's the little miracles that make life worth living :banana:
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Guys - awesome discussion on the aircraft. It's like watch a bunch of college professors discuss history - which is a very interesting, and eye opening experience.
This thread was not intended as a arguement or an attempt to prove the other wrong. Part of the challenge for us SEA/AvA/FSO admins, is trying to use the aircraft we have to the best match we can substitute. For example, the general P51D first appeared in Europe in May 1944. And in the pacific and china regions the beginning of 1945. It's why we list it as such. So when coming up with dates, we need to be reasonable and think "when did the general model P-51D enter service" - not, when did this particular variant with this particular supercharger/turbo, with this particular hard points enter service. Otherwise, we'd have to scrap most of our events because we wouldn't have the right/exact airacraft.
In this case, close enough is good enough. If the P-51D (general model) saw action in May 1944, then as admins, we'll use them in our setups for that date. I'm not going to park the P-51D and use the B variant if my setup is based on September 1944.
I'm going to shift throught the many posts and start a new topic with all the information listed here (there's a lot!). Again, thanks guys! You've been really helpful with this. :salute
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The Ki-61 in the Spring of 1942, Lt. Umekawa was on a test flight and stumbled onto the Doolittle Raiders Mission. He pursued one of the 25's and had to break off because of lack of fuel and the Machine Guns were acting up and not yet finalized.
Wow, interesting tidbit. I have never heard this before.
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Wow, interesting tidbit. I have never heard this before.
I was trying to point out to Thorsim about "grasping at straws". Should it count? No, however that is "combat". But yeah Maus, it did happen and the significance of the event is amazing.
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well call me crazy but there seems to me to be a difference in one airframe operating on pilot initiative resulting in zero results either way ...
and ...
the engagements that resulted in a number of claims between squad size elements ...
the 262 is even more able to be argued as in combat before finishing it's operational testing, i remember an account of some 20 bombers shot down on one sortie during it's operational testing phase ...
the other nice thing is most of these engagements are confirmed by both sides, and it is pretty irrefutable when that happens.
it is just a fact that the situations and policies of the different combatant countries created differences in how planes reached what they each called operational status.
the most specific, most confirmed, and most relevant dates are the first combat, or first kill or death dates as those are the dates that determine when the opposing Air Forces had to start contending with the respective types in combat.