Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Plawranc on January 21, 2010, 02:23:03 AM
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/f8/20080727191633!Pe-8.jpg)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Petlyakov_Pe-8.jpg)
General characteristics
Crew: Eleven
Length: 23.2 m (76 ft ¼ in)
Wingspan: 39.13 m (128 ft 4 in)
Height: 6.20 m (20 ft 4 in)
Wing area: 188.66 m² (2,030.7 ft²)
Empty weight: 18,571 kg (40,941 lb)
Loaded weight: 27,000 kg (59,400 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,000 lb)
Powerplant: 4× Mikulin AM-35A liquid-cooled V12 engine, 999 kW (1,340 hp) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 443 km/h (275.2 mph)
Range: 3,700 km (2,299 mi)
Service ceiling: 9,300 m (30,504 ft)
Rate of climb: 5.9 m/s (1,154 ft/min)
Wing loading: 143 kg/m² (29 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 140 W/kg (0.2 hp/lb)
Armament
Guns:
2 x 20-millimeter (0.79 in) ShVAK cannons (dorsal and tail turrets)
2 x 12.7-millimeter (0.50 in) UBT machine guns (engine nacelles)
2 x 7.62-millimeter (0.300 in) ShKAS machine guns (nose turret)
Bombs: Up to 5,000 kg (11,000 lb)
I mean, the Russians do not have a Heavy (Awesome for scenarios') and besides the thing is a Russian B-17. Its got more defensive weapons that any other Russian bomber.
In my view an essential add.
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I would prefer the TU-2 if the soviets were getting a bomber (they havent got any at all)
but the PE-8 would be one interesting model to play with. Huge plane to rival a lanc or b17.
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The Pe-8 was pretty much only used at night and in very limited numbers. Even at night it had quite a high loss rate and had been phased out of frontline service by late 1944. So there is almost no scenario potential for it. An Il-4, a Pe-2 or to a lesser extent a Tu-2 would have loads more scenario potential and the latter two would get more MA use too.
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In the big picture, I believe the Pe-2 was a more important bomber for the Soviets.
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Pe-2, Tu-2 are ok, but not nearly as awesome as the I-153.
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+1 on the wish. :aok
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+1
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+1 not that I'd like to see anything Russian added before the He-111 or 37mm Stuka cannons but...Russian bombers would be a great add.
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The Pe-8 was pretty much only used at night and in very limited numbers. Even at night it had quite a high loss rate and had been phased out of frontline service by late 1944. So there is almost no scenario potential for it. An Il-4, a Pe-2 or to a lesser extent a Tu-2 would have loads more scenario potential and the latter two would get more MA use too.
Yep, Il-4 and Pe-2 were the most numerous level bombers of the VVS in WWII.
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Nope, 2 x20 mm on the tail and dorsal you will most likely die from it.
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Its only claim to fame was as a VIP transport. I don't see why folks keep insisting each nation get a "heavy" bomber "like the B17, but for country x" -- many nations did not desire or intend to use bombers the way the US and Britain did, so it's a dumb thing to insist upon. My $0.02
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Think of it this way Krusty. It gives you a wide variety of planes to select from. +
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Think diversity krusty. It may have not been used as much as it could have protentals, but it still could have a place on AH. Just like the B-29, Do-217 or G.55
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Its only claim to fame was as a VIP transport. I don't see why folks keep insisting each nation get a "heavy" bomber "like the B17, but for country x" -- many nations did not desire or intend to use bombers the way the US and Britain did, so it's a dumb thing to insist upon. My $0.02
No worse than the P-47M operated by what...a single squadron?
I think Krusty would argue with anything that isn't 100% pure all american apple pie super duper yee-haw by gawd made in the good ole USofA.
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Its only claim to fame was as a VIP transport. I don't see why folks keep insisting each nation get a "heavy" bomber "like the B17, but for country x" -- many nations did not desire or intend to use bombers the way the US and Britain did, so it's a dumb thing to insist upon. My $0.02
Pretty much this.... :aok
I think Krusty would argue with anything that isn't 100% pure all american apple pie super duper yee-haw by gawd made in the good ole USofA.
:rofl
Don't give us the 'super bombers' that were never used, just to have a heavy bomber for each country (when they didn't use heavy bombers)... Give us the He 111's, Do 17's, Do 217's, instead of the He 177; the SM. 79 instead of the P. 108; the DB-3, Pe-2, and Tu-2, instead of the Pe-8; give us the aircraft that actually bore the burden of the action. Therein lies true diversity.
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No worse than the P-47M operated by what...a single squadron?
I think Krusty would argue with anything that isn't 100% pure all american apple pie super duper yee-haw by gawd made in the good ole USofA.
A single group of 3 squadrons, and the most successful fighter group in the ETO.
And, Krusty is probably one of the bigger proponents I know of for including a broad spectrum of all aircraft, as long as they are relevant. The Pe-8, while perhaps relevant to VVS history buffs, isn't relevant to this game, especially before the Pe-2, for example, is added to the Russian plane set.
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A single group of 3 squadrons, and the most successful fighter group in the ETO.
And here I thought those squadrons gained most of their success in earlier model P-47's, not just the 800 total production M models.
I'd rather see the Pe-2 or Pe-3 before the Pe-8/TB-7 but still, it has merit in that is was used by the Soviet air force early in the war on long range strategic missions...it wasn't relegated to VIP transport until after the war...and it wasn't pulled off the front lines until 1944.
Consider it another slow moving target for the Spixteen.
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Oakranger:
Think diversity krusty.
"I'll handle this one... I believe Diversity was a large wooden sailing ship used during the Civil War..."
Gyrene: That's not even a valid comparison, P-47M vs Pe-8. You might as well compare the Martin B-10 with the Bristol Blenheim. Both about comparable in terms of time frames, in terms of capabilities, but one saw almost no action what-so-ever, and the other saw tons. In this case the Pe-8 was used to ferry diplomats to special meetings, due to its super long range (and no doubt it's defensive guns).
Once AH properly models "Diplomats" then let's talk about it, eh? :cheers:
P.S. Only 100 P-47Ms made, and probably a number of them written off due to the engine failures and teething problems. Still saw a lot of action, though.
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Pe-8 with 5000kg bomb like in IL2 Sturmovik Game :noid Ultamite Russian block buster. In IL2 Sturmovik it looks like a damn nuke, mushroom cloud and all. TT
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JK :rofl :aok :cheers:
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Krusty, as much as many of you seem to "hate" giving anything to scenario designers.
How you would you like to try to design and run a scenario which is even and well balanced.
When one side has no bomber capable of hauling more than 1k of ord. And the other side has multiple bombers capable of hauling 6, 8, and up to 14k. Not to mention Fighters that can carry more ord than the other sides bombers.
Its Impossible!
Plainly put the axis side has at least reasonable equality with fighters, enough to be able to play.
But it sorely lacks that same equality with bombers.
Russians have the il2 which really is more of a ground attack plane than a true bomber.
Japanese have D3a, and B5n neither of which can haul as much as an F4u.
Plus the Ki-67 which while a good bomber, is a "light" bomber at best.
So should we just petition the CM team to go on strike until they get some of the planes they need? Shut down all the events, tell everyone to go home, we can't do it with what we have!
Or is it perhaps better to keep begging HTC for Axis bombers hoping they'll get the message?
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1+ :aok
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Krusty, as much as many of you seem to "hate" giving anything to scenario designers.
How you would you like to try to design and run a scenario which is even and well balanced.
When one side has no bomber capable of hauling more than 1k of ord. And the other side has multiple bombers capable of hauling 6, 8, and up to 14k. Not to mention Fighters that can carry more ord than the other sides bombers.
Its Impossible!
Plainly put the axis side has at least reasonable equality with fighters, enough to be able to play.
But it sorely lacks that same equality with bombers.
Russians have the il2 which really is more of a ground attack plane than a true bomber.
Japanese have D3a, and B5n neither of which can haul as much as an F4u.
Plus the Ki-67 which while a good bomber, is a "light" bomber at best.
So should we just petition the CM team to go on strike until they get some of the planes they need? Shut down all the events, tell everyone to go home, we can't do it with what we have!
Or is it perhaps better to keep begging HTC for Axis bombers hoping they'll get the message?
There's no sense in creating "balance" through historically insignificant aircraft. The Russians never used heavy bombers in a historically significant manner; nor did the Japanese.
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The MA could use some more Heavy bombers for people who like to fly only 1 side, I flew luft for the half of this tour I was playing but then I had to jump in a B24 because the JU88 was too slow,cant climb and has horrible protection.
Id like to see more people stop just thinking about events and think more about where most of the players spend their game time
just my 2 cents :salute
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...the JU88 was too slow,cant climb and has horrible protection.
So, instead, you'd rather climb in a Pe-8. A bomber that was slower, carried roughly the same payload, and had a paucity of defensive armament?
This thing would see only nostalgic use in the MA.
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Gyrene: That's not even a valid comparison, P-47M vs Pe-8. You might as well compare the Martin B-10 with the Bristol Blenheim. Both about comparable in terms of time frames, in terms of capabilities, but one saw almost no action what-so-ever, and the other saw tons. In this case the Pe-8 was used to ferry diplomats to special meetings, due to its super long range (and no doubt it's defensive guns).
Once AH properly models "Diplomats" then let's talk about it, eh? :cheers:
P.S. Only 100 P-47Ms made, and probably a number of them written off due to the engine failures and teething problems. Still saw a lot of action, though.
The Russians never used heavy bombers in a historically significant manner; nor did the Japanese.
I guess it depends on whose side of the fence you're looking from. From the WWII Russian standpoint the Pe-8 was used in a politically psychological significant manner during a time when heroic acts were used for war time propaganda to boost Russian morale. True, they weren't used to the extent that the U.S./British bombers were used but, they were used to strike German targets deep in German held territory, including Berlin from 1941 to 1944. They started in flights of 6 to 8 and went as high as 4 or 5 squadrons on a single mission flying from 30 to 130 sorties a month or more. When they were pulled off the front lines due to what they considered heavy losses, they were assigned to homeland defense and other roles.
As far as the Russian Stalin regime was concerned, until Germany was beaten...any effort was "significant"...so to dismiss even the lowly Pe-8 as "historically insignificant" is wrong since it obviously made enough of a difference to Stalin to continue production of about 8 per month throughout the war.
Amazing what can be learned by reading more than 1 source...
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So, instead, you'd rather climb in a Pe-8. A bomber that was slower, carried roughly the same payload, and had a paucity of defensive armament?
This thing would see only nostalgic use in the MA.
You didnt read most post right, some people like JG11 only fly a certain countries aircraft, Shisengumi only flies Japs, we only have 5(?) russian aircraft....IMO the aircraft that should get added to the game should be made to fit in better where most of the players play most of the time.......Late War MA
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+1 I fell bad for those russian plane fliers in AH they only have 2 aircraft to fly!!! and a B-17 rival would be awsome!(I can't fly B-17s because my comp freezes up when I select the spawn point on the B-17)
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JU88 was too slow,cant climb and
BLASPHEMY! :lol
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+1 I fell bad for those russian plane fliers in AH they only have 2 aircraft to fly!!! and a B-17 rival would be awsome!(I can't fly B-17s because my comp freezes up when I select the spawn point on the B-17)
woops I just realized that the russians don't have 2 aircraft thats the italians :lol but staill the rusian's only have 1 bomber and those bomber nuts would be exstatic about the new bomber
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I would like more to see an IL-4 or an Pe-2, Tu-2 first but
+1
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the Pe-8 was used in a politically psychological significant manner
from 30 to 130 sorties a month or more
pulled off the front lines due to what they considered heavy losses,
continue production of about 8 per month throughout the war.
Aren't you trying to argue that the Pe-8 WAS historically Significant?
All this post says is that the Pe-8 was such a POS that it was only ever used for morale, to limited success, as it was such a terrible aircraft that it couldn't fly without sustaining significant casualties, only flew 30-130 sorties per month, and only 8 were built per month.
Then you say in another thread that it has more historical significance than the Yak-3, and aircraft that actually fit into the Soviet war strategy and was used to great success in the closing stages of the war.
Seriously, for what possible reason could you place the Pe-8 on a list of significance higher than the DB-3/Il-4, Pe-2, Tu-2.... and then also the Yak-3! :rofl
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Kinda looking for straws there ain't ya motherland? If you read up on it some, without taking things out of context and doing the "ah ha!!!" crap...you would see where the assessment of POS is wrong...was it an "uber 1337" bomber like any of the U.S. bombers...no, but considering that it remained in production and in combat service for nearly 4 years unlike many other planes, how bad could it possibly have been?
You really need to stop taking stuff out of context to bolster your own arguments...as for the IL4, it was used on several of the same bombing missions on Berlin as the Pe-8. High losses on a plane that could only be produced in small numbers due to a shortage of materials is not the same as high losses would be on something like the P-51D...or did you miss that part of the equation?
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Less like taking it out of context, more like cutting out the fluff... nothing I cut out changes the meaning in context to your post or the reality of the Pe-8's service.
93 aircraft were built. It didn't accomplish anything other than dumping a few thousand pounds of bomb per mission in the general vicinity of Berlin. The only thing it could do was be used as a morale booster, but it couldn't even do that and was taken off the front.
was it an "uber 1337" bomber like any of the U.S. bombers...no,
No, and that really doesn't matter. What does matter is that it wasn't 'uber 1337' compared to other Soviet bombers of the period, to the point where it wasn't even relied on for what for the VVS actual combat use.
Which is exemplified here;
as for the IL4, it was used on several of the same bombing missions on Berlin as the Pe-8.
It was an aircraft so terrible at what it was even designed to do, that it had to be complimented by a twin engined bomber that was a modification of a design that had been produced since 5 years before the war started. Which, as you should know, was an eternity in this period...
considering that it remained in production and in combat service for nearly 4 years unlike many other planes, how bad could it possibly have been?
93 aircraft over 4 years :lol
For comparison, in a similar time period, over 33,000 Yaks were built.
Heck, more than 150 Ta 152s were built and it was in service for 4 months :lol
The funniest thing is that as soon as someone points out what a useless and irrelevant aircraft this was, you jump on them for loving the B29 or some nonsense... I haven't flown an American aircraft in this game in the main arena in over 2 years. :lol
So... that begs the question... what would it be used for?
Would it be used in the MA? Likely not... less bomb load than a Lancaster and even slower. Its only redeeming factor are the 20mm cannons in the tail and dorsal turrets. No where near good enough to get people out of the B24 or Lancaster. It would be a sitting duck.
Would it be used in Events? There's nothing that it could be used for.... it couldn't be used for supporting ground forces and the Soviets never had a strategic campaign of any worth.
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Any Plinko stuff would be a good thing I believe.... Been thinking about it all day after this AM's Yak3 convo....
The Russian's had a whole bunch of reasonable aircraft that should have a home here!
+1
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Ok now that I'm home and I got a few minutes before I have to go bowling...incidentally, are you flying the FSO tonight Motherland?
I think you're looking through the window with the blinds half closed...you need to open the blinds and see the entire picture.
It's all about perspective:
Was the Dolittle raid insignificant? - in the grand scheme of the war, yes but it sure surprised the Japanese. The Pe-8 had the same effect for Stalin.
Since you brought it up, were the early bombing missions of the B-29 significant compared to the Dolittle raid? - in forcing the Japanese to surrender and crippling their war efforts...not until early 1945. The Dolittle raid caused more of a psychological effect in one shot than several hundred B-29 missions.
How significant were 2 or 3 years of Dolittle type bombing missions to the German high command? - even though nothing of signficance was hit (which was the same effect as the B-29 missions until they started flying at lower alts)...all of the bombing runs by the Pe-8s did exactly what Stalin wanted them to, let German people know that the propaganda of imminent German victory in Russia was false...and gave Stalin more propaganda to feed his people...if Stalin had pushed strategic bombing to the extent that the U.S. did, imagine several hundred improved Pe-8s (maybe Pe-9s dropping tonnage on Berlin before the U.S.
If Stalin hadn't been as short sighted on the idea of "long range strategic bombing" as Hitler was, that Pe-8 would have been much improved over its life and it would not have been the only long range bomber Russia produced. But Stalin had to gain air superiority and supply his armies...so the majority of resources went into more easily produced assets. In the grand scheme of things sure, the Pe-8 did little against the Germans, but it had a purpose...and it served its purpose to the extent that the Russian regime at the time wanted. Even the use of a bi-plane on night raids to drop small bombs and hand grenades on forward German airfields had an effect...and the Russians did it a lot. You think the Pe-8 losses were high...think about the B-17 losses before someone decided long range escorts were needed, when the Luftwaffe still had air superiority. Even the B-29 suffered what was considered heavy losses by U.S. military command until they made some strategic operational changes. The Pe-8 could operate at 30k which rivals the B-17 and is higher than the B-24 or any of the bombers the Germans had...and it's not that slow for a bomber that was never improved upon.
And yes I agree, the DB-3 or Il-4 would be better suited adds for AH...but in general as far anything that the Russians produced and actually put into combat...there isn't much that is really insignificant.
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Ok now that I'm home and I got a few minutes before I have to go bowling...incidentally, are you flying the FSO tonight Motherland?
Yes I am :) In fact, as I have to get the ol' butcher bird started up soon this'll be a quick post.
If Stalin hadn't been as short sighted on the idea of "long range strategic bombing" as Hitler was, that Pe-8 would have been much improved over its life and it would not have been the only long range bomber Russia produced. But Stalin had to gain air superiority and supply his armies...so the majority of resources went into more easily produced assets.
I'll say the same thing I do when someone brings up 'if the war would have went on a few months longer then...' or 'if Hitler wouldn't have interfered with the Me 262 program then...' They didn't, so it's irrelevant.
let German people know that the propaganda of imminent German victory in Russia was false...
I would have to doubt it... even Operation Gemorrah didn't do much to break the German people. It actually strengthened their resolve in a way... Kind of like Pearl Harbor or 9/11.
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woops I just realized that the russians don't have 2 aircraft thats the italians :lol but staill the rusian's only have 1 bomber and those bomber nuts would be exstatic about the new bomber
Hey guys Im gonna start a new crew, we have "Blame Karaya" why not "Blame Warphoenix" for all spelling errors and grammatical failures in AH2.
SPELLCHECK IS YOUR FRIEND!!!!!!!!!!!
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Accusing Stalin of short-sightedness in regards to strategic bombing sorties is wide off the mark. In 1941 the VVS undoubtedly had the numerically strongest strategical bomber force in the world, but then they had this little misshap called "Operation Barbarossa" and a rather negligable struggle for mere survival at their hands. :neener:
Actually after the slaughter of the frontline bomber forces in the last days of June 1941 soviet High Command fed ADD forces (= long-range bomber forces) into the maelstrom as it had nothing else left to hit the Wehrmacht with. In that summer soviet bombers (either SB or DB-3 types mostly, some odd TB-7/Pe-8 or even the lumbering TB-3) went down in droves and essentially sealed the fate of the ADD for the rest of the war - flying night missions. In this regard the Il-4 was the most significant type used while daylight ops fell to the Pe-2 series and later to the increasing numbers of Tu-2 (only after mid-1944).
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I want a russian bomber as well, but I found a better one:
TU-4 :D