Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Estes on January 22, 2010, 10:21:54 PM
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Ive always wondered, and im sure the law varies state from state. But lets say you get pulled over for speeding or something. Do you have to straight up tell the officer that you have a gun, with the license to do so. What happens from there?
I would guess the officer would ask ya to get out of the car, show him the license and let him know where the gun is? Or how does this work?
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The problem is that the law does vary from state to state. So you should check into Texas specific law.
There is no legal requirement to declare your weapons where I live. If you have done a proper job in concealing them, then there is not going to be any issue. At least for a typical traffic stop and ticket.
Now if you have done something stupid like drink and drive and the officer asks you to step out of the car, then you obviously will need to produce your license and declare all of your weapons. If you are also legally carrying other weapons like a knife, taser, or pepper spray, be sure to give them up as well.
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Just hand him your CCW permit and drivers license at the same time, he will usually direct you afterward in a manner comfortable with him.
If anything it usually puts him at ease, a CCW holder is very unlikely to give him any trouble....
Ditto on checking the local laws, even states your traveling through, some may not honor your CCW from another state.
Ryan Norton
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Ive always wondered, and im sure the law varies state from state. But lets say you get pulled over for speeding or something. Do you have to straight up tell the officer that you have a gun, with the license to do so. What happens from there?
I would guess the officer would ask ya to get out of the car, show him the license and let him know where the gun is? Or how does this work?
The dispatcher will inform the officer that you have a concealed weapons permit, but out of custom courtesy, you should inform the officer of it, and where it is located. Odds are, they'll get it, or if it's out of reach, they'll keep an observant eye out, but go on with it. So, say I had a firearm in the glove box for some reason, I'd say to the officer when he approached the vehicle...
"Good (insert time of day) officer. Here's my information, and I have a firearm in the glove compartment which I am licensed to carry."
There, good safe way of putting it, keeping the officer informed, and they'll appreciate you being up-front and honest, and it could help you get out of a ticket if you're lucky. ;)
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Arizona if you have it you have to state that you have it. NO big deal happend once to me he took it and cleared it... gave it back empty when he was done writing the ticket.
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In Kansas you have no requirement to inform an officer unless he/she asks. So if you get pulled over you have no requirement to inform the officer, but as someone else has mentioned, after he/she gets your driver's license he'll know you you have the permit.
Though I haven't had the experience, here is how I was told to handle the situation.
[This isn't going to Hollywood, I'm just getting the point across]
Officer: I see that you are a CCH holder, are you currently carry?
Me: Yes Officer, would you like to hold onto it for now?
Officer: Yes
Me: How would you like me to transfer the firearm to you?
Officer tells you what to do, probably will clear it and store it in the care and return it unloaded at the end.
Or something like that. If I ever get pulled over I don't have any intention of informing the officer unless he/she asks. I see no reason to complicate the situation and let the officer decide what to do.
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Strip hit it right. If you show him the permit and tell him about the gun it should make things much easier. If you have a gun and he does see it before you tell him. They tend to get nervous and then pissed off. If your carrying a gun legal just tell the officer he can't do nothing about it. Show the respect to the officer he is out there with some wierd people. Protecting him self is on the top of the list. If you defuse the situation before it happens then everybody leaves happy. (maybe not you if he gives you a ticket anyway).
v1st
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I just remembered a story about someone getting pulled over. The concealed holder was an elderly woman and I believe she was carrying a revolver. She gets pulled over and wanted to make sure the officer knew she had a gun. Soo, she gets the firearm out and sticks it right out the window and holds it there for the officer to see. :lol I can only imagine the surprise seeing that white haired woman holding a gun out the window along the side of the road.
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If a cop approached a car and the occupant said "I have a gun". Wouldn't the next sound be
BANG
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You do not have to tell him you have a gun , but if he asks if you have a weapon , you will need to say yes with a permit
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Not all dispatch centers have that information. For example, if you get stopped in the county/town you live in where you got your LTC, they will have it. Outside of town, maybe not. It depends on which software program the agency is using. But, all agencies do have the ability to check any person for a LTC through a national database. Those records are kept by the FBI (remember giving your fingerprints).
In short, this is what I would suggest to do. Keep your hands on the steering wheel. Calmly tell the officer that you have a LTC and you have a weapon on you. Don't forget to tell the cop that you have a LTC first. Any cop who has half a brain won't give it a second thought. It's the bad guys who won't tell a cop if they are carrying a weapon. Those are the people cops worry about. Not the honest ones. But again, it depends on your state laws. Some states require you to tell an officer that you are carrying a weapon.
Oh and as a side note, it is illegal to carry a weapon in any bank unless you are law enforcement. Federal Laws supercede State Laws. (All banks are FDIC insured. That's how the Feds get around that one.) Most people don't know this. But again, most honest people don't brandish their weapon everywhere they go either.
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Strip, Jayhawk and Obie have it pretty well covered. From the perspective of one who has done thousands of traffic stops it is a good idea to be up front about it. Finding you are carrying a weapon a bit later is not conducive to calm nerves.
I stopped a car full of little old ladies one time. When I asked for the registration the passenger opened the glove box and inside was a grand kids toy gun that looked very VERY real. No red parts on it at all. She started to grab it and show it to me, muzzle first and I had to yell at her several times to just drop it. She darn near got it pointed directly at me and almost got shot because if that. You cannot trust folks to do the right thing all the time so plan accordingly.
For the Officer it's all very real and there are no do overs so do what you can to keep things calm and easy going.
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The law in my state changed a few years ago requiring CCW holders to notify the leo if armed.
For 25 years when pulled over the leo and I conducted our business and calmly went our separate ways. The last 3 stops I hand all the required documents along with the CCW and inform that I am armed and the tension starts, "where is the gun? hands on the wheel please, where are you going?"...causes a bunch of unneeded drama if you ask me.
shamus
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I've always handed the officer my permit with my driver's license. Never had the slightest problem. In fact, they usually smile an ask what I'm carrying. Only once has an officer asked me if he can hold the weapon while he runs the checks.
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Or something like that. If I ever get pulled over I don't have any intention of informing the officer unless he/she asks. I see no reason to complicate the situation and let the officer decide what to do.
Exactly my point: Why on earth complicate things?
As for another post that talked about having a handgun in your glove compartment, I would say this: One would have to be awfully stupid to store a handgun in the same place that you have your registration and proof of insurance forms, which you will need to hand over to the officer. That would be asking for trouble.
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The law in my state changed a few years ago requiring CCW holders to notify the leo if armed.
For 25 years when pulled over the leo and I conducted our business and calmly went our separate ways. The last 3 stops I hand all the required documents along with the CCW and inform that I am armed and the tension starts, "where is the gun? hands on the wheel please, where are you going?"...causes a bunch of unneeded drama if you ask me.
shamus
Man, if I had to confess and identify all the weapons that I had with me and where they were, the officer might think that I am some sort of nutjob for being so heavily armed. However, I am perfectly normal, other than being a little:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_nDmwSDJNbj0/ScVpWSnESWI/AAAAAAAADHY/JBbeG4t9j_s/s400/GunCrazy_0.jpg)
Fortunately, I'm also a conservative and cautious driver. It has been years since I was last pulled over for a traffic violation.
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Kansas also allows you to remove the weapon from concealment while driving, as a matter of comfort. You don't have to conceal the weapon, even in areas that restrict open carry.
(I should note I don't have my permit yet, finished the class last weekend and will turn in the paperwork monday. Then I have to wait about 60 days till I'm approved.)
Anyway I've started researching ways to store the gun while driving if I want to remove it. Better to have it held securly than flying around if I brake hard or get into an accident. I know they make a few car/truck holsters but I haven't been too impressed with any. My plan is to get some sort of simple holster and fasten it to my middle console around my feet. Of course if I do that the officer may see it at my feet. Eh, I'm still looking into it.
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Ive always wondered, and im sure the law varies state from state. But lets say you get pulled over for speeding or something. Do you have to straight up tell the officer that you have a gun, with the license to do so. What happens from there?
I would guess the officer would ask ya to get out of the car, show him the license and let him know where the gun is? Or how does this work?
This link should give you nearly all the general information you might need when carrying a concealed firearm. http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/texas.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/texas.pdf)
In Texas you must inform the officer you are carrying. What happens from there will depend greatly on the officer himself (or herself).
There has been a bit of bad info given out. Specifically:
Not all dispatch centers have that information. For example, if you get stopped in the county/town you live in where you got your LTC, they will have it. Outside of town, maybe not. It depends on which software program the agency is using. But, all agencies do have the ability to check any person for a LTC through a national database. Those records are kept by the FBI (remember giving your fingerprints).
In short, this is what I would suggest to do. Keep your hands on the steering wheel. Calmly tell the officer that you have a LTC and you have a weapon on you. Don't forget to tell the cop that you have a LTC first. Any cop who has half a brain won't give it a second thought. It's the bad guys who won't tell a cop if they are carrying a weapon. Those are the people cops worry about. Not the honest ones. But again, it depends on your state laws. Some states require you to tell an officer that you are carrying a weapon.
Oh and as a side note, it is illegal to carry a weapon in any bank unless you are law enforcement. Federal Laws supercede State Laws. (All banks are FDIC insured. That's how the Feds get around that one.) Most people don't know this. But again, most honest people don't brandish their weapon everywhere they go either.
Not all states have your concealed carried license connected to your drivers license. There is no national database of concealed carry license holders, my state does a NICS check, calls the references on the application and stores the paperwork in the county Sheriffs office. The state police maintain the information, there is an 800 number on the back of my CHL so it can be verified as valid. Some states do not require fingerprinting to acquire a CCL. In fact, as of August 2009 MA. no longer requires fingerprinting (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/massachusetts.pdf (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/massachusetts.pdf)).
It is not illegal to carry into a bank. Banks are not federal property. Simply being insured by the FDIC does not meet the requirements for a facility to be classed as a federal building. The requirements are for the building to be owned or leased by the federal government for the use of federal employees.
A snippet from Title 18 which can be found here:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000930----000-.html)
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 930
§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
Clearly your local bank branch or credit union, unless it employs federal employees, does not meet these requirements. Even MA law does not define banks as off limits.
Unless you are in a state where the law requires you to inform the officer, the choice is yours really. Unless you are committing a crime with the gun, the LEO has no real reason to know about it. Its none of his business, just as its none of his business you are wearing superman under-roos.
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Telling the officer won't complicate things. Not telling him and having him find out sure as Hell will. About 95 out of 100 officers, upon you handing them a valid CCW permit, will smile, knowing you are a law abiding citizen, run a quick cursory check, and let you go with no more than a warning. About 4 of them will ask to take your weapon while they run the checks. And one of them will be a chump. The 95 will be pretty upset about you NOT Telling them if you don't, will likely write you, and detain you for 5 times as long. The 4 will turn into a chump like the one. And the one will likely cuff you and haul you in, not to mention keeping your weapon. Now, can you overcome all of that? Probably, eventually, if you spend enough time and money, you'll get your permit back, and your weapon. Why go through it, when you can just hand them the valid permit? You are not doing yourself any favors by trying to hide it from them. I speak from experience from both sides of the badge myself, and friends with various agencies up to the U.S. Marshall's office and the FBI.
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If the LEO doesnt ask you dont have to tell. If the LEO asks if you have any "guns knives, or anything else that could hamr you or me", then you best tell him **with your hands in clear view** that you have said weapon and you have a permit for it.
The only time you need to, imo, tell him without being asked is when you need to step out of the vehicle for whatever reason and the handgun is on your person.
Communicate, be honest, and do as needed so you can get back to what you were doing. The LEO doesnt want to be doing what he is doing any more that you want him to do it (in general).
I can say this both as a former deputy and as a CCW holder. I speak from both sides of the fence. ;)
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It's funny when someone tries to represent an entire community. :lol Just playing :aok
It's going to vary from state to state, town to town, and mostly officer to officer. Just obey the laws and be courteous, and you shouldn't ever find yourself in too terrible of a situation.
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Coshy, Thank you for posting those links regarding MA LTC carry laws. I don't claim to be an expert regarding the laws. I only passed on information taught to me years ago.
In Massachusetts, you are correct regarding taking fingerprints, It is not required by law. But a right thumbprint is still taken. Why just the thumb, I don't know. I know that most towns still take a full set of fingerprints and submit them to the State Police and the FBI for their AFIS records. It may not be required by law now, but most agencies still require it depending on what city/town you live in.
Again in Massachusetts, there is a statewide database to check if a person has a LTC. But again, the system is limited to the agency having acess to that database. Smaller police departments might not have the budget for the software. That program also has a listing of firearms owned by a person. But I know that this information is rarely correct. A recent check showed that I owned 3 handguns and a rifle. I own more than that.
As far as a national level, I was recently informed that there was a database that was implemented recently to obtain the information from a particular state. I will have to get back with this information to at least confirm if it is correct or not.
Once again, thank you.
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Obie,
The amount of incorrect information regarding firearms (owning, possessing, carrying, transferring, etc) being passed on as fact (or law) is mind-blowing. I didn't single your post out to embarrass you or to sound superior, but rather to inform. There are people who believe, and will argue vehemently, that the 4473 you fill out for your NICS check goes directly to the ATF and into a nationwide gun registration database.
I hope you and others dig a little deeper into the laws of your particular state and educate yourselves a bit. I'd be willing to bet there will be some "Well damn, I didn't know that" moments.
Telling the officer won't complicate things. Not telling him and having him find out sure as Hell will. About 95 out of 100 officers, upon you handing them a valid CCW permit, will smile, knowing you are a law abiding citizen, run a quick cursory check, and let you go with no more than a warning.
This is how a simple traffic stop, as stated by the OP, should go.
About 4 of them will ask to take your weapon while they run the checks.
Completely unnecessary. A firearm is safest in its holster. When you start fiddling with it, the chance of a negligent discharge goes through the roof.
And one of them will be a chump.
By chump I imagine you are talking about unlawful search, seizure and/or detainment.
The 95 will be pretty upset about you NOT Telling them if you don't, will likely write you, and detain you for 5 times as long.
So if a person doesn't relinquish their 4th Amendment rights they get detained for an unreasonable time. And members of the LEO community wonder why there is so much distrust.
The 4 will turn into a chump like the one.
Fortunately there are citizens who will not stand for this abuse of authority. Maybe when some of the federal cases are settled there will be more limits placed on law enforcement to avoid such abuses of authority and violations of individual rights.
And the one will likely cuff you and haul you in, not to mention keeping your weapon.
And this one bad apple ruins it for the rest. Unlawful arrest, detainment, confiscation of property ... some agency or department is going to be glad they have lawsuit insurance, or some municipality is going to have to have to issue bonds to cover the judgment. I can think of 2 or 3 federal lawsuits going on right now because people were either illegally detained or had their firearms confiscated. Hopefully the time of people rolling over to intimidation and uniformed thuggery, at least on this topic/issue, is drawing down. Hopefully.
Now, can you overcome all of that? Probably, eventually, if you spend enough time and money, you'll get your permit back, and your weapon. Why go through it, when you can just hand them the valid permit? You are not doing yourself any favors by trying to hide it from them. I speak from experience from both sides of the badge myself, and friends with various agencies up to the U.S. Marshall's office and the FBI.
I've already touched on the 4th Amendment , so I won't get on my soap box again. What is more concerning is that you know people, and have experience, of the unlawful denial of basic, fundamental rights, and have not done anything about it. From the way you phrased it, it sounds like you participated in the abuse of authority. I sincerely hope I'm reading it wrong and you aren't one of the jack-booted thugs that give the upstanding law enforcement officers a bad name.
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why do you guys need to have a concealed weapon permit?
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why do you guys need to have a concealed weapon permit?
Hehe.
Okay, I choose to carry concealed simply so I can protect myself and my loved ones around me. I am no gunslinger vigilante wanna-be cop, I fully understand my limitations but on the other hand understand the responsibility I have by carrying.
When seconds matter, the police are only minutes away.
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why do you guys need to have a concealed weapon permit?
because the govt said so, which is unconstitutional, what part of "shall not be infringed" do they not understand.
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Did I misunderstand the question?
Is it why do we have to have the permit to carry or why do we get a permit to carry?
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Obie,
The amount of incorrect information regarding firearms (owning, possessing, carrying, transferring, etc) being passed on as fact (or law) is mind-blowing. I didn't single your post out to embarrass you or to sound superior, but rather to inform. There are people who believe, and will argue vehemently, that the 4473 you fill out for your NICS check goes directly to the ATF and into a nationwide gun registration database.
I hope you and others dig a little deeper into the laws of your particular state and educate yourselves a bit. I'd be willing to bet there will be some "Well damn, I didn't know that" moments.
This is how a simple traffic stop, as stated by the OP, should go.
Completely unnecessary. A firearm is safest in its holster. When you start fiddling with it, the chance of a negligent discharge goes through the roof.
By chump I imagine you are talking about unlawful search, seizure and/or detainment.
So if a person doesn't relinquish their 4th Amendment rights they get detained for an unreasonable time. And members of the LEO community wonder why there is so much distrust.
Fortunately there are citizens who will not stand for this abuse of authority. Maybe when some of the federal cases are settled there will be more limits placed on law enforcement to avoid such abuses of authority and violations of individual rights.
And this one bad apple ruins it for the rest. Unlawful arrest, detainment, confiscation of property ... some agency or department is going to be glad they have lawsuit insurance, or some municipality is going to have to have to issue bonds to cover the judgment. I can think of 2 or 3 federal lawsuits going on right now because people were either illegally detained or had their firearms confiscated. Hopefully the time of people rolling over to intimidation and uniformed thuggery, at least on this topic/issue, is drawing down. Hopefully.
I've already touched on the 4th Amendment , so I won't get on my soap box again. What is more concerning is that you know people, and have experience, of the unlawful denial of basic, fundamental rights, and have not done anything about it. From the way you phrased it, it sounds like you participated in the abuse of authority. I sincerely hope I'm reading it wrong and you aren't one of the jack-booted thugs that give the upstanding law enforcement officers a bad name.
It would be nice if you had some sort of general idea about the subject at hand. I'm certainly pleased you've decided that I've been a bad cop. Having NEVER had ANY dealings with you, I'm quite happy that you've made this determination. And you wonder why some officers have such disdain for some people. Here you are on your soapbox preaching while you decide to judge people you do not know, with information you do not have. I hope your wonderful prejudicial attitude does not get you into trouble. Idiots and fools like you are one good reason I left law enforcement. Those of us who decided to serve and protect do not need idiots to "test" us to make our jobs more difficult. It is a job most of said idiots would never do, because they lack the willingness to make the sacrifices and accept the risks. But they sure love to criticize people they don't know about things they have little knowledge of.
And no, it is NOT a violation of your 4th Amendment rights if you decline to inform an officer you are carrying a weapon, then he sees it or has reason to believe it is there, and he detains you. Sorry, wrong answer. With your CCW permit comes responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to be up front with any officer, to prevent any incidents. A good CCW permit instructor will tell you to tell the officer you have the weapon and the permit, so that he doesn't spot it and rightfully assume you are trying to hide it from him. Most states that issue CCW permits will tell you as a part of the course that it is your responsibility to notify any officer who stops you for any reason that you have the permit and the weapon. In many states, failure to do so can bring about immediate and permanent revocation of your permit.
USE COMMON SENSE, if an officer pulls you over, or stops you, and he spots a weapon that you did not tell him you had, he will assume, with good reason, that you intended to conceal this weapon from him, and as such, will immediately consider you a threat, and rightfully so. At that point, if he is smart, he will disarm you immediately, and detain you until such time as he can determine whether or not you and your weapon are legal or not. I can assure you that is standard policy at most agencies. I can also assure you that such policy has and will continue to pass constitutional examination.
To my knowledge, the Supreme Court has not ruled that requiring a CCW permit holder to inform an officer that he/she holds such a permit and a weapon violates any constitutional right, nor that it constitutes unreasonable search and seizure. The courts have ruled that an officer does have the right to expect to be informed of your possession of a permit and a weapon if you have them.
There are certainly cases of officers who have over stepped their authority, since they are humans, they represent a cross section of society just like any other group, with good and bad. There are many who should not be officers, there many who are chiefs who shouldn't even be officers.
These people advising you to test your constitutional rights by not informing an officer are most often lawyers looking for business. Most of the rest of them are looking for someone else to "test" something for them because they lack the fortitude to try something like that themselves, so they look for a willing guinea pig to do it for them. If you like being a guinea pig, or you like the idea of making lawyers rich, by all means, go for it.
If an officer exceeds his authority, by all means, make a federal case out of it. But if you're stupid enough to make an officer's job excessively difficult, and it doesn't work out for you, well, too bad. You asked for it, I hope you enjoy the "test".
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Your entire premise is that the officer will spot or have some other reason to believe you are hiding it. If he/she goes back and runs my license and does find out I have a CCH, that is definitely not any reason to arrest me and I don't' believe that gives any right to search my vehicle.
Overall my point is that different officers are going to want you to do different things. As long as you are legal, there won't be any problem (depending on your definition of problem).
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It would be nice if you had some sort of general idea about the subject at hand. I'm certainly pleased you've decided that I've been a bad cop. Having NEVER had ANY dealings with you, I'm quite happy that you've made this determination. And you wonder why some officers have such disdain for some people. Here you are on your soapbox preaching while you decide to judge people you do not know, with information you do not have. I hope your wonderful prejudicial attitude does not get you into trouble. Idiots and fools like you are one good reason I left law enforcement. Those of us who decided to serve and protect do not need idiots to "test" us to make our jobs more difficult. It is a job most of said idiots would never do, because they lack the willingness to make the sacrifices and accept the risks. But they sure love to criticize people they don't know about things they have little knowledge of.
You stated you had experience with agencies up to and including U.S. Marshals and the FBI where it was apparently okie dokie to stop, detain and arrest someone without RAS that a crime is, was or has been committed. You did not indicate the experiences were anecdotal in nature so the presumption is you were involved in stopping, detaining and/or arresting someone without RAS or PC. If you don't want people coming to incorrect conclusions, be more concise. I don't know you, I don't know what type of person you are. All I have to go on is what is written here, which is why I worded my reply the way I did.
And no, it is NOT a violation of your 4th Amendment rights if you decline to inform an officer you are carrying a weapon, then he sees it or has reason to believe it is there, and he detains you. Sorry, wrong answer. With your CCW permit comes responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to be up front with any officer, to prevent any incidents. A good CCW permit instructor will tell you to tell the officer you have the weapon and the permit, so that he doesn't spot it and rightfully assume you are trying to hide it from him. Most states that issue CCW permits will tell you as a part of the course that it is your responsibility to notify any officer who stops you for any reason that you have the permit and the weapon. In many states, failure to do so can bring about immediate and permanent revocation of your permit.
USE COMMON SENSE, if an officer pulls you over, or stops you, and he spots a weapon that you did not tell him you had, he will assume, with good reason, that you intended to conceal this weapon from him, and as such, will immediately consider you a threat, and rightfully so. At that point, if he is smart, he will disarm you immediately, and detain you until such time as he can determine whether or not you and your weapon are legal or not. I can assure you that is standard policy at most agencies. I can also assure you that such policy has and will continue to pass constitutional examination.
If the officer sees a firearm the first thing that should happen is a determination if it is carried lawfully. That does not require disarming or detaining for "5 times as long". Most states require a concealed carry licensee to inform a LEO when asked. Once the license is determined to be valid, the traffic stop should go on as usual. Disarming a person who is lawfully carrying a firearm is unnecessary and creates a safety risk not only to the LEO, but to those around him. Dealing with unfamiliar firearm and a good dose of adrenalin on the side of the road seems an unnecessary risk. Most states that issue CCW licenses and good CCW instructors will inform you of the law and whether it requires you to inform an officer or not.
To my knowledge, the Supreme Court has not ruled that requiring a CCW permit holder to inform an officer that he/she holds such a permit and a weapon violates any constitutional right, nor that it constitutes unreasonable search and seizure. The courts have ruled that an officer does have the right to expect to be informed of your possession of a permit and a weapon if you have them.
Which courts? I'd be interested in looking a little deeper into this. This would be a good piece of information to have. If an officer has the right to be informed, and the courts have upheld this belief, why then do we have states that have no legal requirement to inform.
There are certainly cases of officers who have over stepped their authority, since they are humans, they represent a cross section of society just like any other group, with good and bad. There are many who should not be officers, there many who are chiefs who shouldn't even be officers.
Just as on an average night on traffic patrol a LEO might meet both scumbags and choir boys, there are scumbag officers who have no business wearing a badge, and there are officers who are the very model of professionalism. I truly believe there are more of the latter than the former by a significant margin. The problem that both LEO and citizen face, is you never know which one you are going to end up interacting with.
These people advising you to test your constitutional rights by not informing an officer are most often lawyers looking for business. Most of the rest of them are looking for someone else to "test" something for them because they lack the fortitude to try something like that themselves, so they look for a willing guinea pig to do it for them. If you like being a guinea pig, or you like the idea of making lawyers rich, by all means, go for it.
If an officer exceeds his authority, by all means, make a federal case out of it. But if you're stupid enough to make an officer's job excessively difficult, and it doesn't work out for you, well, too bad. You asked for it, I hope you enjoy the "test".
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I lack the fortitude to "try something like that" myself. On several occasions I have not informed a LEO I was carrying. In none of those occasions was I detained, searched or arrested. The interactions were polite, friendly and professional.
One does not "test" their rights. They either stand up for them, or they roll over. You and I appear to be polar opposites on this subject.
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Did I misunderstand the question?
Is it why do we have to have the permit to carry or why do we get a permit to carry?
No you understood the question ok, I was just wondering why people need to have a permit to carry a concelled weapon. Im from the UK, so its something I was not aware off.
If you have a permit, you can carry a gun anywhere for instance? to go shopping etc. My question was not intended to be sarcastic or anything..it was just out of curiosity :)
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Ive always wondered, and im sure the law varies state from state. But lets say you get pulled over for speeding or something. Do you have to straight up tell the officer that you have a gun, with the license to do so. What happens from there?
I would guess the officer would ask ya to get out of the car, show him the license and let him know where the gun is? Or how does this work?
Yes. I would declare that I have a weapon to an officer anytime I am confronted by one, hands on the wheel where he can see them to prevent him from reacting. Better safe than sorry.
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I've never "rolled over" for anyone, on any of my rights. You'd be unwise to test your little assumption about me, as you'd quickly find yourself in an extremely precarious position. As much as you assume, you'll eventually assume a position you'll wish you had not gotten yourself into.
Again, you advise people to place themselves at risk for no real reason. Rather than extend a law enforcement officer a little common courtesy, in many states required by law, you propose that people should "exercise their rights" :rolleyes:, and then you get self righteous and begin to preach about "jack booted thugs" :rolleyes: Here you are demanding a measure of courtesy from a law enforcement officer doing his job, and yet you refuse to extend that officer a common courtesy, and you also advise people to do the same. Looks a great deal like the absolute height in hypocrisy, but that is not at all surprising.
Advising people who are going to carry a weapon legally with a permit to avoid normal courteous disclosure and cooperation with law enforcement officers is problematic at best, and considering that you make rash and unfounded assumptions about people whom you know nothing about, quite risky for people taking such advice.
You are extremely quick to give people advice that can easily get a person taking that advice into serious legal trouble, as well as serious physical danger. It would be funny to read your posturing, if not for the fact that it could easily get someone arrested or even shot, regardless of whether they were legally right or wrong.
If you are in violation of any motor vehicle code, to the point where an officer pulls you over, you have reached the point where an officer not only has at least a measure of probable cause, but also he does have a reasonable expectation that you will provide legal identification, as well as the requisite paperwork for the vehicle. So an expectation that you would also show a CCW permit if you have one is not even remotely close to "unreasonable search and seizure". Regardless of how much you'd like to present that as fact, it has never been proven in court, that I am aware of.
As a former sheriff's deputy, I have worked with many state and local agencies, and most federal agencies, so I'm fairly familiar with SOP and normal department policies.
You may not like a department policy that allows or requires officers to take your weapon temporarily, but the fact that you do not like it has absolutely no bearing on anything other than your preference. What you like does not matter at all, such policies do exist, in dozens of jurisdictions. In fact, I can tell you that if you don't like having your weapon taken from you, in most jurisdictions, you would be much better off to inform the officer that you have a CCW and your weapon. Because with most agencies, the policy and SOP is to take the weapon if it is discovered, and detain the person in possession of the weapon.
It is really amusing how some people have decided that not offering a little courtesy themselves and demanding it of others has become "exercising your constitutional rights". Sad, but still amusing.
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No you understood the question ok, I was just wondering why people need to have a permit to carry a concelled weapon. Im from the UK, so its something I was not aware off.
If you have a permit, you can carry a gun anywhere for instance? to go shopping etc. My question was not intended to be sarcastic or anything..it was just out of curiosity :)
Since we have the right to own firearms, in many states we also have the option to get a permit to carry a firearm concealed on our person for our own protection.
If you have such a permit, you may carry your weapon in many, but not all places. In many states, you cannot carry your weapon into a government building, a school, or where alcoholic beverages are sold or served, among other places.
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virgil, the constitution says "keep and bear arms", it don't say "keep and bear arms if you have a permit but only in some places", that is a infringement.
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I have been pulled over 4 times in the last 10 years or so since I've had my CHL. In each instance I was carrying. Texas requires me to inform the officer that I'm carrying and display my license. In each case the officer asked where the weapon was (in the glove box) and that was it.
On a side note. In Texas it is a CONCEALED handgun license. It is a crime to NOT conceal the weapon. (unless you would be justified using deadly force)
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No you understood the question ok, I was just wondering why people need to have a permit to carry a concelled weapon. Im from the UK, so its something I was not aware off.
If you have a permit, you can carry a gun anywhere for instance? to go shopping etc. My question was not intended to be sarcastic or anything..it was just out of curiosity :)
I can't carry into schools or any Federal property for that matter. The law here in Kansas is relatively new (2007) so the statues have been changing and finding their place since. To put it simply, with the exception of federal property and certain state buildings, I can carry anywhere there is not a proper concealed carry sign. http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/concealcarrysignage.pdf (http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/concealcarrysignage.pdf) The law has been changed slightly to only allow buildings to be restricted. Basically that means cities can't put signs outside public parks or on the side of buses. I know that a shopping mall close to me has the proper signage on it's main entrances but some of the department stores have chosen not to put up the signs. I can legally enter through those stores and into the entire mall because the entrance was not marked. When the law first came out, signs went up everywhere! Businesses were scared of wild west vigilante shootouts. To the best of my knowledge, since 2007 there have been two instances where a concealed carry holder has used their firearm, both in a legal manner and no charges are being filed. Stores have realized concealed carry holders are responsible and are stores are safer because of it. Anyway, if you have any more questions about the philosophy of concealed carry feel free to ask, I'd be glad to give you my take on it.
Here is an interesting bit I'll be voting on this fall:
On Thursday, March 26, Senate Concurrent Resolution
No. 1611 passed out of the Kansas State House by a vote
of 116 to 9. SCR 1611, sponsored by State Senator Mike
Petersen (R-28), is a constitutional amendment that
would change the wording of Section 4 of the Kansas
Constitution to specifically preserve and reflect an
individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms, not a collective
right. SCR 1611 will now be put on the 2010 General
Election Ballot.
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Virgil,
Save your time. That guy is a legal legend in his own mind and you are not going to change his mind about his cherished assumptions. All you can do is hope that some of the folks here read what he says and realize that following his "advice" is a good way to end up in plenty of trouble.
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Coshy, I did some more digging. I was wrong about the banks. Like you said, it was federal property and places where federal employees work.
There have been so many changes to the gun laws in this country, it can be very difficult to keep up with them. Being educated about the subject is very important. The key here is to know what your state requires and always ask more than one person if you have questions. Even cops can be wrong. (And its very rare to get one to admit it.)
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In Mississippi you can carry one as long as it's not CONCEALED and if you want to conceal it then you have to get a handgun license . I have mine fixed to the driver's door .When you open the door you can see it and it's very easy to get to , if in need .
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In Mississippi you can carry one as long as it's not CONCEALED and if you want to conceal it then you have to get a handgun license . I have mine fixed to the driver's door .When you open the door you can see it and it's very easy to get to , if in need .
I looked it up a little, so it is basically state regulated open carry?
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Yes , as long as you don't have it concealed ..
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I've never "rolled over" for anyone, on any of my rights. You'd be unwise to test your little assumption about me, as you'd quickly find yourself in an extremely precarious position. As much as you assume, you'll eventually assume a position you'll wish you had not gotten yourself into.
Again, you advise people to place themselves at risk for no real reason. Rather than extend a law enforcement officer a little common courtesy, in many states required by law, you propose that people should "exercise their rights" :rolleyes:, and then you get self righteous and begin to preach about "jack booted thugs" :rolleyes: Here you are demanding a measure of courtesy from a law enforcement officer doing his job, and yet you refuse to extend that officer a common courtesy, and you also advise people to do the same. Looks a great deal like the absolute height in hypocrisy, but that is not at all surprising.
Advising people who are going to carry a weapon legally with a permit to avoid normal courteous disclosure and cooperation with law enforcement officers is problematic at best, and considering that you make rash and unfounded assumptions about people whom you know nothing about, quite risky for people taking such advice.
You are extremely quick to give people advice that can easily get a person taking that advice into serious legal trouble, as well as serious physical danger. It would be funny to read your posturing, if not for the fact that it could easily get someone arrested or even shot, regardless of whether they were legally right or wrong.
If you are in violation of any motor vehicle code, to the point where an officer pulls you over, you have reached the point where an officer not only has at least a measure of probable cause, but also he does have a reasonable expectation that you will provide legal identification, as well as the requisite paperwork for the vehicle. So an expectation that you would also show a CCW permit if you have one is not even remotely close to "unreasonable search and seizure". Regardless of how much you'd like to present that as fact, it has never been proven in court, that I am aware of.
As a former sheriff's deputy, I have worked with many state and local agencies, and most federal agencies, so I'm fairly familiar with SOP and normal department policies.
You may not like a department policy that allows or requires officers to take your weapon temporarily, but the fact that you do not like it has absolutely no bearing on anything other than your preference. What you like does not matter at all, such policies do exist, in dozens of jurisdictions. In fact, I can tell you that if you don't like having your weapon taken from you, in most jurisdictions, you would be much better off to inform the officer that you have a CCW and your weapon. Because with most agencies, the policy and SOP is to take the weapon if it is discovered, and detain the person in possession of the weapon.
It is really amusing how some people have decided that not offering a little courtesy themselves and demanding it of others has become "exercising your constitutional rights". Sad, but still amusing.
In Michigan "informing the Officer" right off of the bat is Standard. Then you can go into the Formalities of being pulled over. Declaring you are/aren't packing is a VERY LARGE weight off of the Officer's mind.
For those arguing with Hilts, stop, because he is making the most sense, with common sense.
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Keep it with your DL in Texas.
In Texas you can actually have a concealed handgun in your vehicle without a CCW/CHL. As long as your breaking no laws. To actually carry the handgun on your person you need a CCW/CHL.
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I had a job as a automobile reclamations operator, aka repoman. Part of my standard self preservation was to carry a sidearm plus back-up and wear protective vest. When I would go to the local police departments I would declare why I was there and also I would inform them of the weapons I had.
Whenever I got stopped by.a local police officer I would keep my hands on the steering wheel and dome light on. I would tell him I was carrying concealed and I had a permit to do so. Usually what happened is I would get outta the car and and be frisked down.and lose my weapons for a little bit while he checked me out.
The only problem I ever really ran in to was crossing the state lines. My procedure was to stop at the 1st state police department, and get a temporary permit from that state and do my job.
But the best thing to do when carring concealed is to don't do anything stupid. Use the better part of discretion and remember that police officer is also a father,brother, and a son.
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why do you guys need to have a concealed weapon permit?
Without a permit we would be in violation of the law in having our handguns with us. We are law abiding citizens, and not criminals.
Here in my state, once you have a license, one can not only have a handgun concealed on your person, but also an extra handgun hidden inside your automobile too.
.
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I can't carry into schools or any Federal property for that matter. The law here in Kansas is relatively new (2007) so the statues have been changing and finding their place since. To put it simply, with the exception of federal property and certain state buildings, I can carry anywhere there is not a proper concealed carry sign. http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/concealcarrysignage.pdf (http://www.ksag.org/files/shared/concealcarrysignage.pdf) The law has been changed slightly to only allow buildings to be restricted.
Kansas has a lot of regulation on this compared to many others. My state allows concealed carry on both school grounds and also inside bars. I mainly just have to avoid going into any courthouse or Federal building. You don't want to carry a concealed handgun into an airport, either. It is really only a nuisance when going into the Post Office. No weapons at all are allowed inside a US Post Office.
Open carry of handguns is actually still legal in a few states, including here. I know a handful of guys who do open carry.
However, I really cannot recommend it. Having a handgun on your hip tends to attract attention and concern. Way too much hassle for me to want to put up with
I met a fellow once who is into open carry big time and who had a negative experience with an officer who pulled him over for speeding. When the officer saw the gun on his hip, he immediately drew his weapon to protect himself. And that was despite the fact that the driver was not breaking any law at all, other than speeding.
No, it is just much better for everyone involved to keep your weapons well concealed, and out of the officer's sight. That is the best way to avoid any drama or excitement.
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i miss the days when i had a gun rack in the back window and it was always full, shotgun and a 223 along with my pistol under or in the seat, my truck sat in the parking lot at my high school everyday with atleast two of those in it, and i never even thought about it! it was just another farm truck with some rifles in it! many days during hunting season there was either a dead animal or blood from a hunt all over the bed, i would wash it up on friday to get ready for the weekend and maybe a kill on something else. those days are gone. i thought alot about putting another gun rack in my truck i have now, i can just imagine the crap i would get these days, if it didn't get broken into.
i don't have a ccl licence and my 22 pistol is in it's case behind the passenger seat, i don't get stoped because i drive very much within the law, but i have wondered if it would be an issue in this day and age? i know i am allowed to have it but i am not sure of the way i am supposed to carry it?( it is laoded, no reason to have to thro a perfectly good gun at a bad guy because it didn't have any bullets) i dont really want to have it out in plain sight all the time, someone might think they need it more than me, and i am quite fond of it.
WWhiskey
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No positive of the specific laws but I believe Texas' Castle Law allows you to carry in the car without a license, someone mentioned that earlier. Though you seem content with your set-up, if you wanted to be safe I would suggest getting a small handgun storage safe (I have this one http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HBB15U/ref=oss_T15_product (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HBB15U/ref=oss_T15_product)). Possibly keep your gun in a holster when you're in the car and toss it in the safe when you're going to be out of your car. Just my suggestion (I also suggest a bigger gun :noid).
Either way, did someone say you need to inform an officer immediately that you have the gun in the car (in Texas)?
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i miss the days when i had a gun rack in the back window and it was always full, shotgun and a 223 along with my pistol under or in the seat, my truck sat in the parking lot at my high school everyday with atleast two of those in it, and i never even thought about it! it was just another farm truck with some rifles in it! many days during hunting season there was either a dead animal or blood from a hunt all over the bed, i would wash it up on friday to get ready for the weekend and maybe a kill on something else. those days are gone. i thought alot about putting another gun rack in my truck i have now, i can just imagine the crap i would get these days, if it didn't get broken into.
i don't have a ccl licence and my 22 pistol is in it's case behind the passenger seat, i don't get stoped because i drive very much within the law, but i have wondered if it would be an issue in this day and age? i know i am allowed to have it but i am not sure of the way i am supposed to carry it?( it is laoded, no reason to have to thro a perfectly good gun at a bad guy because it didn't have any bullets) i dont really want to have it out in plain sight all the time, someone might think they need it more than me, and i am quite fond of it.
WWhiskey
Hey WWhiskey , it's still like that here in MS .Just when we go into a state park the ranger make's us put them behind the seat .
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No positive of the specific laws but I believe Texas' Castle Law allows you to carry in the car without a license, someone mentioned that earlier. Though you seem content with your set-up, if you wanted to be safe I would suggest getting a small handgun storage safe (I have this one http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HBB15U/ref=oss_T15_product (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HBB15U/ref=oss_T15_product)). Possibly keep your gun in a holster when you're in the car and toss it in the safe when you're going to be out of your car. Just my suggestion (I also suggest a bigger gun :noid).
Either way, did someone say you need to inform an officer immediately that you have the gun in the car (in Texas)?
The Castle Doctrine applies to your home, not your vehicle. There has always been a defense to UCW (unlawful carrying a weapon) in Texas that the person 'was traveling'.
It is well established in Texas that a person who is traveling has a right to possess a handgun for personal protection. The practical problem with this right has historically been that courts have disagreed on the definition of "traveling". The legislature has likewise never defined "traveling" because a definition invariably has the unintended effect of unfairly limiting the term to a narrow set of circumstances.
HB 823, which became effective 9/1/2005, provides for a legal presumption in favor of citizens that they are travelers if they are in a private vehicle with a handgun that is not in plain view, they are not otherwise engaged in unlawful activity nor otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm, and they are not a member of a criminal street gang.
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I have absolutly no problem with declaring my firearm to the LEO, nor having to surrender it while he is checking stuff out. Really ... why should I care and be bend out of shape? :headscratch:
Heck I'm an airline pilot and I have TSA check me out 2 - 3 times per checkpoint ... even sometimes following me because I walk around in a pilot uniform with an accent. It's there job. :angel:
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The Castle Doctrine applies to your home, not your vehicle.
Maybe true in Texas, but not in Missouri. Missouri's "Castle Doctrine" law specifically includes vehicles. It also includes tents, RVs, campers, etc.
Regards,
Hammer
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Texas includes vehicles too.
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Texas includes vehicles too.
yes it does :aok
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On a side note. In Texas it is a CONCEALED handgun license. It is a crime to NOT conceal the weapon. (unless you would be justified using deadly force)
That's a little surprising to me. In Arizona we have open carry. You only need a permit to carry concealed. Just the other day I saw a cowboy in Wall-mart with a revolver on each hip. I just didn't think Texas would be more strict.
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Kansas has open carry and concealed carry. But you can get in trouble for flashing or printing a concealed gun. So either hide it completely or show it completely. :lol
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I've not once been asked to show nor have I surrendered temporarily my firearm during a routine traffic stop or on the street.
"I'm licensed to carry and am/am not carrying a weapon today/tonight" is my response. Some states require you to identify yourself as a license holder regardless of carrying so as a matter of courtesy I do just that including when I am not carrying or in states which may not even provide reciprocity with any of the states in which I hold licenses.
I was pulled over for a burned out license plate light and was sent on my way after a brief check. The only thing this state policewoman asked was what I was carrying as she was sending me on my way.
Another situation was in Georgia where at least one of my licenses receives reciprocity though I forgot which one at the time. This was while crossing the street a little later than I should as well as a little further from the official crosswalk than I should but made it across before the traffic light changed. The asked me for my ID, what my hurry was and to be more careful next time.
I had only one instance of a rude unprofessional cop who was a county sheriff with a reputation. He has more than a few complaints against him and the most satisfying thing was throwing him out of the house when he was a "+1" on an invitation after he started acting rude. Beyond that my experiences with local and state law enforcement have been positive whether I was asking for directions, being pulled over/DUI routine checkpoints or when I called them in to investigate some suspicious vehicles on my local airport.
Meter maids on the other hand... :furious
The best advice that's been given is calmly state you're licensed to carry and you either are or are not carrying. This way there are no surprises to them when they see you are a license holder and don't have to ask you. I also would not offer to turn over my weapon to them as there's no reason. Leave it where it is, safe, holstered, cased or however it's being carried. Zero chance for a negligent discharge and if the officer does want it they'll ask for it. I've never been asked.