Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lusche on January 23, 2010, 09:19:36 AM
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1. Introduction and Arena Comparison
2. Raw Plane Usage
3. Usage by Fighter Frame Families
4. Plane Usage by ENY
5. Fighter K/D's
6. GV in AH
7. Airborne Tank Killers
8. Wirbel has been nerfed?
1. Introduction & Arena Comparison
Welcome to the annual AH stats examination.
As in last year, I limited my "analysis" to the Late War Arenas. The first chart will give you an idea why:
(http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3904/aharenas2009.th.jpg) (http://img42.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aharenas2009.jpg)
(Click on thumbnail to open picture)
Quality of combat, balanced planeset, more realistic settings or any other real & alleged advantages don't matter: LW is still the place where the action is, only to be rivaled by special events (especially FSO going very strong).
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2. Raw Plane Usage
Definition
Trying to determine the prevalence of a plane is a difficult thing. We don't have access to sortie numbers, and even if we had, it wouldn't be the perfect indicator, because CV planes do a lot of very short sorties. A "average" P-51 will fly just one sortie in the same time a typical F4U-D does 3 or 4.
For our purposes USAGE is still the best approximation we can get, being defined as
USAGE= (Kills + Deaths)
as counting kills or deaths alone are favoring either high or low k/d planes respectively.
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/7052/planeusa
ge2009.th.jpg) (http://img687.imageshack.us/my.php?image=planeusage2009.jpg)
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4130/planeusage
detail1.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=planeusagedetail1.jpg)
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3618/planeusage
detail2.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=planeusagedetail2.jpg)
No real surprises here. Number one in 2009 is still the P-51D, but I guess it will not repeat this feat in 2010 again. Since introduction of the 47M, 51D numbers dropped a bit so that in the last tours of 2009 the Spitfire XVI was ranked #1 (The Spit numbers didn't suffer from the 47M, because both planes cater to different crowds). Also the recently adjusted ENY of the Pony may result in a further slight reduction in usage.
Also strong, of course, are the CV planes F4U-D and Seafire. Rare outside CV battles, but as those are usually very hot with a lot of kills & deaths in a very short time (in case if the F4U-D mostly deaths ;) ), both planes get some very high overall "usage".
And still only a shadow of it's former glory: The La-7, which never got back to it's pre-remodeled status in terms of usage. The 47M has made a strong entry, and while not a dominating factor anymore like it was in the first few weeks, it continues to be a"big player" in the LW MA's, and will probably end up in the top 10 next year.
At the bottom of the list you will find an EW trio: C202, BF 110C and D3A, all of them with less than 0.1% usage.
Unchanged, but still remarkable is the position of the perked Spit XIV: Despite having the lowest perk tag it's very low on that list: #61 with only 0.3% usage (the 14 has only 50% more kills than the highly limited Me 163)
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3. Plane Usage by Fighter Families or: "All I see are Spitfires!"
That may be true, as we don't know what particular model a plane is unless we get closer than D800. When arriving at a huge fight, we only see generalized icons.
Let's see how the usage is splitting up between the different airframes:
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/62/usagebyframes.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=usagebyframes.jpg)
As to be expected: Spitfire family at the top. One may be surprised by the F4U, but again: CV battles result in a lot of kills+deaths in a short time.
The P-51 family falls short, because it's essentially just one model that gets all the action (B has only ~10% of kills+deaths compared to the D), while in the Spitfire there are several variants that see some very good usage.
Some families split up:
(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7517/divframesusagedetail.th.jpg) (http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=divframesusagedetail.jpg)
Posting a P-47 chart for the whole year doesn't make much sense, as the numbers were shifting greatly after the 47M appeared.
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4. Fighter usage by ENY
Just another way to look at it. Contrary to what seems to be another unkillable myth, it's not only low-ENY monsters that are populating the skies of the LW arenas:
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8724/killsbyeny2009.th.jpg) (http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=killsbyeny2009.jpg)
(the current, revised ENY values have been used)
These numbers pretty much match the 2008 numbers, which is quite remarkable for the ENY 30+ category, as it has lost its strongest member: The 190A8 (ENY changed from 30 to 25)
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5. Fighter K/D's
A difficult topic... Has a fighter a good K/D becasue of it's performace... or the players flying it?
Answer: Both. The more players are using a certain fighter, the more unlikely it is of having it's K/D skewed by a few very good pilots. A talented single player can double the P-40B's K/D, but his efforts will be drowned in a sea of mediocracy when trying to do that in a Pony or Spixteen.
However, a plane with huge usage and still having a superior K/D must have some specific performance to cause this. A perked plane (thus largely untouched by 2weekers or other "n00bs") with only an average K/D will probably have some issues. (Yes, noticed right: I do have an agenda regarding the Spit 14 ;) )
But here are the numbers:
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2300/fighterkd2009.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fighterkd2009.jpg)
Perk planes are marked in red.
Since the redesign of the Me 262, the Tempest's #1 rank is even more unchallenged than ever.
The difference between 38L and 38J is SAPP gaming the game and misusing the J as a "fighter" while the majority of players is using the L as one-way bomber, just as it's intended to be. :D
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6. GV in AH2
Here are USAGE and K/D of all ground vehicles (and our PT boat):
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4729/gvusage2009.th.jpg) (http://img25.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gvusage2009.jpg)
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1644/gvkd2009.th.jpg) (http://img687.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gvkd2009.jpg)
These are the generals stats. Please keep in mind that even more than in air combat, these numbers are influenced by the way the different GVs are being used. For example the expensive Tigers are much more commonly found defending their bases instead of attacking enemy ones. This gives them a huge boost in K/D (ability to safely tower out most of the time, or having easier access to vehicle supplies)
To see how the tanks in AH are faring against each other, I didn't use the numbers of the whole year 2009, I just took tour 119 as a sample (with a quick check if there is any animaly compared to other tours)
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1574/revisedtankkd.th.jpg) (http://img641.imageshack.us/my.php?image=revisedtankkd.jpg)
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7. Airborne Tank Killers or "You suck in GVs, so you are dropping bombs now?"
For this aspect of gameplay I concentrated on the most ubiquitous tank of AH 2: The Panzer IV
First, let's see how many Pnazer are actually killed by planes compared to the number being killed by other means (i.e. other tanks for the most part)
(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2063/panzerkillsby.th.jpg) (http://img130.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panzerkillsby.jpg)
I have to admit that I would have expected to see a much higher share of Panzer being killed by planes. Only 14% is much less than I thought.
(Another random stat: On average, more than 2300 Panzer IV were being killed in the AH LW MA's every day!)
Now let's present the top tankbusters of 2009:
(http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9273/top20airbornepanzerkill.th.jpg) (http://img706.imageshack.us/my.php?image=top20airbornepanzerkill.jpg)
No surprise in #1, but the decline of the 110G in the role of a tank killer is quite remarkable.
For comparison, a typical tour from 2007, when there was no B25H, no 37mm IL-2, no Wirbelwind:
(http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9273/top20airbornepanzerkill.th.jpg) (http://img130.imageshack.us/my.php?image=top20airbornepanzerkill.jpg)
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8. "The Wirbelwind is worthless now"
Boy, what an outrage when the Wirbelwind's turret speed was adjusted to a historically more correct number. HTC giving in to the whiners, favoritism and so on...
Just last week there was another player stating here on the BBS: "Only the Ostwind is worth upping now."
But if the Wirbel is now really useless, K/D as well as usage should reflect it, shouldn't it?
Let's have a look:
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5743/flakkillsdistri2009.th.jpg) (http://img641.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flakkillsdistri2009.jpg)
This chart shows how the kills of planes are distributed between our three flack vehicles.
The change happened in tour 116.
As we can see, the WW's kill share shrunk only by a minor fraction. The M16 saw a (relatively) substantial initial increase, but overall it's share is still very small.
But maybe the players just stay in the WW because the OW's turret is now slower too, so that there is no real alternative... that could mean the WW still sucks?
(http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1328/wwkd2009.th.jpg) (http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wwkd2009.jpg)
More remarkable than the drop at Tour 116 is the sharp rise in K/D just before it. I have no real explanation for that - The WW has been around long enough so that you can't say "they had finally learned how to use it properly".
But when looking at the whole year, the WW just seems to do as fine as it did before tour 116.
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:aok
i like your stats! WTG
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that is amazing!!!!<S> thanks for using your time to make us this!!!! This is so cool!!
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Awesome Lusche.
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Awesome job Lushe, thanks for the time you put into this, sir <S>
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I luv charts :D
Spit 14 needs unperk and the P-47M is going to be a monster this year :salute
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.
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No please don't!
I fund an error in that .. disregard these numbers :o
Will put up the correct numbers in a few mins
Ok, I'll edit that out.
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WTG Snailman :aok This is a pie chart from a very popular video game from the 80's...enjoy
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/jake_94pgt/pac_man_pie_chart.jpg)
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excellent work there chartmeister :aok
quite surpised by the spitV usage, I hardly ever see em.
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Thank you Lusche for the time and effort Sir!
:salute
Way
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you are the man ! ! ! !
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Edited the tank vs tank chart... I hope that was my only error... :o
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Edited the tank vs tank chart... I hope that was my only error... :o
I always knew the Tiger was the alpha male :D
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The difference between 38L and 38J is SAPP gaming the game and misusing the J as a "fighter" while the majority of players is using the L as one-way bomber, just as it's intended to be.
ROFL! :banana:
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Amazing as always Snailman! :salute
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Awsome job Lusche, very interesting.
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Another fine example of AH 2's community contributor with information,logic, and a bit of humor. :salute
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Edited the tank vs tank chart... I hope that was my only error... :o
Cool. For the Sherman costing 1/6 of a Tiger, I think the chart still shows that something is out of balance, just like your beloved XIV. ;)
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WTG Snailman :aok This is a pie chart from a very popular video game from the 80's...enjoy
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/jake_94pgt/pac_man_pie_chart.jpg)
:rofl
Nice job as always Lusche
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Awesome work Lusche :)
Do you have stats for countries as well? (Average #s, kills, resets for instance)
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Do you have stats for countries as well? (Average #s, kills, resets for instance)
Skuzzy has taken country stats away from us, and # of resets was never recorded anyway.
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Hey thanks Snailman, I feel like I should paypal some cash...
Second... I just about about split a gut with that pac man chart... :lol
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Skuzzy has taken country stats away from us, and # of resets was never recorded anyway.
Doh! I'm curious when Knights won their last reset. Nobody in Knightland seems to remember..
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Doh! I'm curious when Knights won their last reset. Nobody in Knightland seems to remember..
Oh, they always claim "we never win" ;)
(Just like "They always horde" or "ENY is always against us")
This current tour, I witnessed at least one Knight reset in LWB.
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Doh! I'm curious when Knights won their last reset. Nobody in Knightland seems to remember..
Day before yesterday knits won a reset in one of the late wars arenas.
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Oh, they always claim "we never win" ;)
(Just like "They always horde" or "ENY is always against us")
This current tour, I witnessed at least one Knight reset in LWB.
I'm not suggesting they never do. I haven't witnessed any for a long time and being asked .. well "we never win". :D
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Very fine work. :salute
I'm surprised F4U-1D is ahead of the LA-7.
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I like to add that P47-M shoudl be top 10 thin 2010 since it's new.
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I'm surprised F4U-1D is ahead of the LA-7.
CV battles. It's the main bomb hauler when a CV is attacking a base, and the short distances means a player can and will do a sortie every few minutes. (Takeoff, get picked, takeoff, drop bombs, die by field ack, takeoff, get shredded by wirbels...)
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I like to add that P47-M shoudl be top 10 thin 2010 since it's new.
It was only #18 in tour 119, after the initial craze wore off. (And the ability to fly in "attack mode" was removed ;) )
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per request:
9. Production numbers
How many planes & tanks do our imaginary AH cartoon factories have to build during one year to keep up with the losses in the LW arenas?
Here are the top 10:
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7058/losses.jpg)
Truly an amazing economical feat considering we only have to pay ~180$ per year. ;)
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Total # of kills and total # of deaths? Or have you already posted that and I missed it?
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9. Production numbers
Oh the humanity! Now remember children, when you bomb and bail someone needs to make new lancs somewhere... :) Divide those buff numbers by (presumably) 2.5 or so (accounting for the loss of 3 by most people, the loss of 1 or 2 by fewer) and that's a lot of sets of buffs getting blowed up.
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Total # of kills and total # of deaths? Or have you already posted that and I missed it?
~ 7.5 million deaths
(or better: "confirmed kills". If a plane augers without giving anyone a kill, it's not recorded in the stats)
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:rock :rock Pretty Charts :rock :rock
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<S> Lushe, Sir! Very well done! Thank you.
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Great stats Lusche!
(P-38J roolz all!1)
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Well done <S>
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Where are the numbers that show Rooks have greater kpd than bishops or knights?
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Where are the numbers that show Rooks have greater kpd than bishops or knights?
Skuzzy has taken country stats away from us
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what is this SAPP you speak of?
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Someone say maple syrup?
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Wow! Awesome Lusche! :salute
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What exactly happened to the La-7? When I was playing it basically ruled the roost, although people didn't "discover" it for a while. It truly was the one plane to rule them all - it could out turn pretty much everything it could out run, and out run the spits that could out turn it.
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What exactly happened to the La-7? When I was playing it basically ruled the roost, although people didn't "discover" it for a while. It truly was the one plane to rule them all - it could out turn pretty much everything it could out run, and out run the spits that could out turn it.
heard you left your smelly old socks in one
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Nice work Lushe.....
note -------> wirb still suckage
me likes da osti.....1 hit and da plane is by bys...
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I am proud to say that with the Wirblewinds and Ostwinds at realistic settings, I will be one of many who will bring the M-16 back into popularity with its easy-to-aim .50 cals and high-speed turret!
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Nice work there Snail thx for doing this! :aok
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What exactly happened to the La-7? When I was playing it basically ruled the roost, although people didn't "discover" it for a while. It truly was the one plane to rule them all - it could out turn pretty much everything it could out run, and out run the spits that could out turn it.
Someone posted something on the BBS about how much it sucked since the remodel...later someone in the room coughed and everyone suddenly had an itchy throat...
Hell, it can still more or less turn with a Spixteen in front of it Urchin, although it can't "twitch and flop" with one.
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Lusche,
Nicely done! Thanks for taking time out to put all that information together for the community. :salute
All those stats reminded me to check out the Yak 9T stats in more detail over the year, and it seems exactly 10% of all kills belong to me. :D
<S>...-Gixer
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Excellent stats Lusche! Interesting numbers to look at, especially busting some of those myths (i.e. WW weaker, Planes being biggest GV killer). :aok
Curious if the XIV's K:D is a reflection upon the way it's used compared to the XVI, and the fact that less people are familiar with its abilities due to less seat time in it due to the perceived performance differences between it and it's "sister" models isn't quite as large of a jump between other perkies and their closest models (i.e. Tempest vs. Typhoon), causing people perhaps to not chose it? (I.E. Less seat time due to "is it worth it when I can just fly a XVI)?
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Awesome work Lushe, very much appreciated!
<S>
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per request:
9. Production numbers
How many planes & tanks do our imaginary AH cartoon factories have to build during one year to keep up with the losses in the LW arenas?
Here are the top 10:
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7058/losses.jpg)
Truly an amazing economical feat considering we only have to pay ~180$ per year. ;)
All those Spit XVI deaths should be down by about 1/2 next year if I don't get back to my old amount of playtime.
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Most excellent. Keep them coming. Any info available by county?
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I would like for the good sticks in the game to fly only the P-40 for a year so as to majorly skew Lusche's statistics :).
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Thanks Snailman for the effort involved, and the info.
Total number of downed a/c :O
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Most excellent. Keep them coming. Any info available by county?
Skuzzy has taken country stats away from us
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urious if the XIV's K:D is a reflection upon the way it's used compared to the XVI, and the fact that less people are familiar with its abilities due to less seat time in it due to the perceived performance differences between it and it's "sister" models isn't quite as large of a jump between other perkies and their closest models (i.e. Tempest vs. Typhoon), causing people perhaps to not chose it? (I.E. Less seat time due to "is it worth it when I can just fly a XVI)?
There are a few threads out there in which people are disagreeing on that matter.
An exaggerating answer by me would be "Because it sucks" ;)
Of course the plane doesn't really suck, but after all players don't find the performance worth the investment in perks. And indeed: At usual MA altitudes it has no clear advantage over it's older brothers, which are more agile and are not lackjng in climbrate or acceleration at all. And the Spit 14 may be considerably faster, but still (at low alts) not a real speed demon compared to La-7, 190D and of course the perked competitor, the Tempest. And at high altitudes it has competitors that can simply nose down and dive away from a fast Spit that actually hats high speed. On top of that, it is a very unstable weapons platform and fragile like any other Spit. In short: It needs a very disciplined and experienced hand.
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I would like for the good sticks in the game to fly only the P-40 for a year so as to majorly skew Lusche's statistics :).
These are not mine statistics. And the more you skew the arena numbers in any way, the more interesting next year's analysis will be :aok
(If you wanna skew my stats, shoot me down :D )
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That Wirb is really something...apparently Waystin was online a lot for Tours 114, 115, 116 and took 117 off!! :x
V/r
Changeup
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I am proud to say that with the Wirblewinds and Ostwinds at realistic settings, I will be one of many who will bring the M-16 back into popularity with its easy-to-aim .50 cals and high-speed turret!
If the Wirblewinds were realistic, it would only fire 2 guns at a time with a short delay before the other two guns could fire, due to the constant reloading necessary for the Wirblewind.
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If the Wirblewinds were realistic, it would only fire 2 guns at a time with a short delay before the other two guns could fire, due to the constant reloading necessary for the Wirblewind.
But this is a general descision in modeling affecting not only the Wirbelwind. You would have to introduce reload times for all many more: For example there are quite a number of plane mounted guns using ammo drums that would have to be changed.
Turret speeds however are being modeled, and the WW and OW ones had just been adjusted.
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Wonderful charts again this year Lusche. :salute
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Thanks for taking the time to do that for us Lusche :salute
Steely
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:salute
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But this is a general descision in modeling affecting not only the Wirbelwind. You would have to introduce reload times for all many more: For example there are quite a number of plane mounted guns using ammo drums that would have to be changed.
Turret speeds however are being modeled, and the WW and OW ones had just been adjusted.
Using an ammo drum, such as the M-16 has with it's 200 rounds per gun, is nowhere near as problematic as the 20 round magazines the wirbelwind uses. If it were fired like we do in AHII, an aircraft flying straight at the wirbelwind at 600 fps (just over 400 mph, or 200 yards per second) would only be able to be fired at for 200 yards/sec * 2.3 seconds (the time 20 rounds go through each barrel), or 460 yards of aircraft travel before having to reload all 4 cannon. This means if the wirbelwind opens up at 1200 yards, the aircraft in question would have no rounds firing at it from about the 750 yard point on in. Guns that have drum magazines don't have this issue
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Using an ammo drum, such as the M-16 has with it's 200 rounds per gun, is nowhere near as problematic as the 20 round magazines the wirbelwind uses. If it were fired like we do in AHII, an aircraft flying straight at the wirbelwind at 600 fps (just over 400 mph, or 200 yards per second) would only be able to be fired at for 200 yards/sec * 2.3 seconds (the time 20 rounds go through each barrel), or 460 yards of aircraft travel before having to reload all 4 cannon. This means if the wirbelwind opens up at 1200 yards, the aircraft in question would have no rounds firing at it from about the 750 yard point on in. Guns that have drum magazines don't have this issue
My point is: It's a specific general modeling decision that was made long ago for the game as a whole, long before there was even a thought of the WW.
(Oh and other drum fed weapons could give their players indeed some "issues": Think of changing the drums during a fight in a 110C, or in some bomber defensive gunner positions in a critical moment of the fight ;) )
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My point is: It's a specific general modeling decision that was made long ago for the game as a whole, long before there was even a thought of the WW.
(Oh and other drum fed weapons could give their players indeed some "issues": Think of changing the drums during a fight in a 110C, or in some bomber defensive gunner positions in a critical moment of the fight ;) )
Yes, drum mags "could" give issues under specific instances. The 20 round magazine on the WW is guaranteed to give you issues. Not even comparable.
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thanks for the work snail :salute
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Doh! I'm curious when Knights won their last reset. Nobody in Knightland seems to remember..
That just shows the unimportance of resets.