Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Loathing on January 24, 2010, 01:10:36 PM
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I dueled limbo0 yesterday and we did a best 2/3, which ended with me taking the following shot. According to him it was a blatant ho and he was even in the process of pushing his nose down so I wouldn't ram him. He said he didn't mind if the film was posted, and I told him I would apologize if some of you guys who duel think it was a HO on my part.
Film: http://www.mediafire.com/?ftihbhxn4ty (http://www.mediafire.com/?ftihbhxn4ty)
Loathing
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Nope that was fair and square... Good shot...
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limbo0 complains about a ho HA! :rofl :rofl
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Ignore Limbo, hes a complete tool in many different ways.
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Nope, great shot.
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Jury is in.
NO HO.
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That kind of shot at the end of a drawn out turn fight is nowhere near a "blatant HO" in my opinion. He didn't even have his nose on you so there's no contest really.
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Not a HO you hit him in the rear of the plane, heres a few shots i captured
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/loathin1.jpg)
(http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/68zoom/loathin2.jpg)
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First thing is first a HO is hitting the front part of the plane in a head on regardless of location. Thus in after much thought and examination I have come to these conclusions :headscratch: aint found the HO yet unless while pulling down he saw a sheep down there and finally :neener:
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does it matter if you HO'ed Limbo0 ? He HO's 99% of the time if you ask around, then tries to call it on you?
hypocrisy at it's finest
so what is it that would make one "Loathing" enough to cause them to create a new gameid ?
for the record, that is not a HO on your part
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oh lord another slobber fest :rolleyes:
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Avoiding the opponents shot is just as important as taking a shot. A head on shot is a viable shot to take and better be defended against every time especially in the ma. Just because that zero or n1k manages to point his nose at you after every merge doesnt give him a "free pass". When im flying and a better turning plane wants to point his nose at me im going to make him pay for it. Debating this issue is over done.
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From your end it doesn't look like a HO, no. From his it might, but you can only fly according to what *you* see.
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First thing is first a HO is hitting the front part of the plane in a head on regardless of location.
LOL i hit someone in the bottom of the plane in KOTH and they called it a ho and i got kicked out, This was a while ago not last night.
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you could have been on his dead six, he will cry HO. :rofl
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Not sure if we just watched the same film but that's a HO all the way in my book. Exactly how much closer to Nose to Nose is Limbo expected to bring it for guns off? If Limbo had pulled any further he would have rammed the crap out of you. It's a bad place to be on the bottom of that because I would argue the plane on top has a little bit more flexibility of taking shots like that but that was pretty blatant in my book. Had I taken that shot, which is possible in the heat of the moment, I would have apologized and scratched the duel. Also, if you would have started firing earlier when you had finished the turn then stopped when he came nose to nose, I would have said that was clean.
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you could have been on his dead six, he will cry HO. :rofl
Sounds like oDallaso
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great fight today Loathing your in the making of becoming a very good stick :salute :salute Sir
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you could have been on his dead six, he will cry HO. :rofl
believe it or not I was HOd from behind once :) Internet was lagging really bad and the guy was warping, saw him warp past me and then start shooting and I died :rofl
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In the MA you'd take that shot every time, in a duel its a little close to nose to nose , and most duellers would pass
up that shot and work for more position.
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In the MA you'd take that shot every time, in a duel its a little close to nose to nose , and most duellers would pass
up that shot and work for more position.
Yep. And in the MA, the random P38 you were fighting would have just pulled up into you for the ram and you would have called him a ace pilot, then he would have called joo a ram tard and then a 200 poo flinging fest would be underway!
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LOL i hit someone in the bottom of the plane in KOTH and they called it a ho and i got kicked out, This was a while ago not last night.
No one has ever been kicked out of a King of the Hill because they did a Head On.
(sigh)
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Yep. And in the MA, the random P38 you were fighting would have just pulled up into you for the ram and you would have called him a ace pilot, then he would have called joo a ram tard and then a 200 poo flinging fest would be underway!
lol ya , well I don't bother with 200 much , but in most cases I'm sure ur right.
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No one has ever been kicked out of a King of the Hill because they did a Head On.
(sigh)
well, i was
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Had I taken that shot, which is possible in the heat of the moment, I would have apologized and scratched the duel. Also, if you would have started firing earlier when you had finished the turn then stopped when he came nose to nose, I would have said that was clean.
My thinking at that moment was that he couldn't have pulled any tighter. I'm hardly an excellent stick who knows exactly what my opponent could or couldn't do, I make mistakes. I'd love to re do the duel anytime, but as you can probably tell we weren't there for a few friendly rounds. Which is unfortunate because he's obviously no slouch and I'd love to ask him questions about a few things he did.
great fight today Loathing your in the making of becoming a very good stick :salute :salute Sir
Thanks Bone, those spitfires sure make for some fun duels. I couldn't figure out the flaps though, it seemed when I dropped them vs you or kazaa the fight ended shortly after. Should I be keeping the flaps up for everything except going over the top? At any rate 'twas a fun time until everyone disappeared on me, lol.
so what is it that would make one "Loathing" enough to cause them to create a new gameid ?
You are right. Obviously I'm not a new guy fresh off my two weeks, but reading deep into my name wouldn't be accurate, it's just one that I've used in other games. Just looking for a fresh start and a different perspective.
Loathing
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next time you see me on m8 send a pm my way alot easier to explain by showing you than telling :salute :salute
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Ignore Limbo, hes a complete tool in many different ways.
:rofl He would've taken that right corner panel shot if he got the piper on your nose! :aok
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Not a HO from your film. I would have taken the shot without hesitation.
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Not a HO from your film. I would have taken the shot without hesitation.
How much closer would he have to get for you to hold guns? Even if he avoided the ram by 5 yds, the entire top section of Limbo's aircraft would have flown in front of Loathing's guns. Would you still fire? If that is the case, it seems to me the only way to deter some from taking that shot is to intentionally ram the aircraft on top. Otherwise there's no such thing as a HO in this setup.
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How much closer would he have to get for you to hold guns? Even if he avoided the ram by 5 yds, the entire top section of Limbo's aircraft would have flown in front of Loathing's guns. Would you still fire? If that is the case, it seems to me the only way to deter some from taking that shot is to intentionally ram the aircraft on top. Otherwise there's no such thing as a HO in this setup.
From Loathings perspective, it looked like Limbo could have been trying to turn and face him, but didn't quite have the turn rate available to do so, especially since Loathing wasn't using zoom.
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How much closer would he have to get for you to hold guns? Even if he avoided the ram by 5 yds, the entire top section of Limbo's aircraft would have flown in front of Loathing's guns. Would you still fire? If that is the case, it seems to me the only way to deter some from taking that shot is to intentionally ram the aircraft on top. Otherwise there's no such thing as a HO in this setup.
Does there need to be a such thing as a HO in this setup? :huh
From the screenshots, looks like limbo was beaten fair and square.
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Does there need to be a such thing as a HO in this setup? :huh
From the screenshots, looks like limbo was beaten fair and square.
Well, after logging over 2,000 duels in the last year and a half and seeing this situation from both sides more times than I can count, it's possible I am analyzing this from a different perspective than you. :aok
My point was, the only time it is truly a HO is when one aircraft rams through the other one. Otherwise, there is always a thin gun solution.
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I'd take that shot every day and twice on Sunday in a duel. As far as I'm concerned Limbo had zero % chance of getting guns on. Further he's defensive the entire fight (as shown) and his counter is about a C- in my opinion. From my perspective here is the issue at hand. He's in an inferior position and he got there off of an even merge I'm assuming. Then he basically sets up a vertical reverse where the best he can do is get close to even. If the shot is passed on then the filmer surrendered a position of strength that he earned because the other guy got lame and tried to manufacture a free pass. This entirely different then a situation where your nose to nose on a remerge. I'd rather have seen it from the merge but from whats there he got position flew reasonable lag and waited for limbo to make a mistake which he did. If loathing was further along on his E management thats a pure canopy shot...he was a tad late off the gas and didn't scrub any E with rudder but thats just poor flying by the other guy.
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Especially during a scissors with a good stick... That's more that fair.
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well, i was
there is a BIT more to this story that you are leaving out...
yes you were probably kicked.
no it had nothing to do with a head on.
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Dont feel bad, I did the same thing to AnglEyes. He was on the deck in a turn and I came down from above in a lead turn. He saw me and turned into me but I shot his canopy to his tail and he cried HO.
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I would post the films of him running, whining, and getting owned all in one sorite, just tonight actually. Its just easier to type this. :rofl
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It's good to know most don't consider that a ho shot before the tourney begins. I've been passing those shots up because it's a bit too questionable imo. The shooter seemed to be hesitant at first, which is why Lambo got nailed in the rear of his plane. A split second earlier on the trigger and it of been a solid front shot.
I advanced to the 2nd round in the last tournament on a shot just like that. My opponent called it all good, though he did say he was surprised i took the shot. Yeah i won, but didn't feel real good about it either.
Just my 2% of a buck
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Everyone is going to have an opinion but from my perspective it's all about the ACM and the 3/9 line. The entire premise behind dueling etiquette is to remove the crap shoot. The primary focus of the "no face shot" rule is to remove the jousting element. This occurs primarily at the "re-merge" but continues as long as the combatants are approaching each other nose to nose. Once a player has gained the 3/9 line then (IMO) he's got some established right of way. If the fight progresses such that the defensive player gains separation for a reset or pulls a reverse the circumstances change accordingly.
Looking at the film a few things are clear to me (others may view it differently). The biggest is that Loathing has clearly gained the 3/9 line and is maintaining decent lag pursuit. So while what might be a closer call on some type of a re-merge simply isn't to me. My believe is that since Limbo let the fight stabilize this way he's got to either work an extension or a reverse. My thoughts here are grounded in my experience fencing in college, you have to respect your opponents right of way and defend before you attack. So if this sequence is earlier in the fight and limbo is defending is his 3/9 line then maybe I feel differently...once he cedes that then he has to respect any guns solution he gives during his counter.
Looking at the move itself I see a number of issues. At roughly 45 seconds limbo has a couple of choices. He can set up a rolling scissors or he can actually extend I think. Instead he looks to reverse in the vertical and is carrying way to much speed to get around. His best case is HO and he isn't really even close to that. He's totally in plane and makes to effort no get skinny or set up a rolling scissor here either. Could Loathing have responded better/faster/differently sure but the fact is that he had established an offensive position as it relates to the 3/9 line. Limbo has to be prepared to defend any guns solution he gives in forcing Loathing back in front of the 3/9 line. Further whats the result if Loathing passes or "evades". If he see's an impending "HO" and pulls up and off I 100% guarantee Limbo shoots him or falls in trail and then shoots him. If he pulls thru then he gives up his 3/9 line and places himself on the defensive while passing on an easy in plane shot.
Limbo had every chance there to pull a nice reverse if he gets out of plane and "skinny", he just flew a sloppy defense and got waxed...
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You are right. Obviously I'm not a new guy fresh off my two weeks, but reading deep into my name wouldn't be accurate, it's just one that I've used in other games. Just looking for a fresh start and a different perspective.
Loathing
Sorry I was razzin you Loathing. It appears you are turning over a new leaf and I applaud your efforts. Wish you the best, you appear to have the skill and determination to give some folks a good intense dogfight, just keep at it and you'll rise to the cream of the crop :cool:
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I took Limbo0 to the DA. His idea of a "merge" then, was coming in at 9 O'clock. I went back into the LW arena at this point.
Going on his track record alone, it wasn't a HO and I'm pretty confident that I do not have to watch the film.
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No HO. Very nice shot
:salute
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I dueled limbo0 yesterday and we did a best 2/3, which ended with me taking the following shot. According to him it was a blatant ho and he was even in the process of pushing his nose down so I wouldn't ram him. He said he didn't mind if the film was posted, and I told him I would apologize if some of you guys who duel think it was a HO on my part.
Film: http://www.mediafire.com/?ftihbhxn4ty (http://www.mediafire.com/?ftihbhxn4ty)
Loathing
Looks like the shot I die mostly to in the DA. It looks fine from your end but close enough that in his FE may look a lot different. My advice is don't take these shots in a friendly duel because of that reason. If not a friendly duel then . . . . Just keep in mind that in the other guys FE that could have easily looked like a HO
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Well, after logging over 2,000 duels in the last year and a half and seeing this situation from both sides more times than I can count, it's possible I am analyzing this from a different perspective than you. :aok
My point was, the only time it is truly a HO is when one aircraft rams through the other one. Otherwise, there is always a thin gun solution.
Yes, we know :rofl I tried it on someone the other day and he called me a Grizz lol
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Bahh dueling bombers
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Bahh dueling bombers
I still have the film of that Candy Mountain Mishun, where the 12 of us "dueled in 24's". :uhoh
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That was a blast. I think I was the last one trying to limp home after that.
snicker dogfighting 24s off the map.
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A squad I was in used to do weekly squad duels in the da. A couple times we did B5N duels. That was a blast.
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stay on the subject guys, looks like a HO to me.
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well I don't need to watch the film, the guys a complete -place bad word of choice here- besides most say it was not, grizz says it was hmmmmmm I think most are saying it's not because the person in question is -again place bad word of choice here- and even if it was a HO the recipient deserves everything he gets.
:salute on the kill of -once again insert bad word here-
INK
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see rule #5.
:lol
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After Review:
The ruling on the field stands: Legitimate shot by Loathing.
We have a penalty: Unsportsman like conduct, number 79 - Limbo0. Penalty will be assesed on the next Duel. 1st down Loathing.
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The best thing about the duel:
Limb0: YOU HO'D ME!! (paraphrasing to avoid rule violations)
Loathing: Thanks for the duels.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Classic! :aok
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I reviewed the film several times.
A few things.
First limbo was defensive the whole time (in the film snippet). He works around for an angle but loath easily counters with a very nice verticle reversal and is coming down for a shot.
Limbo is climbing strait up at him for several seconds....forcing his nose into a diving bandit...bad idea.
The problem arises when Limbo pushes his nose forward...that small neg push gives Loath a nice canopy shot.
Limbo could have created a nice verticle revers out of his nose up positon be he doesnt turn soon enough...he just goes strait at Loath nose on.
As the two come to merge it is Limbo who gives up the angle allowing Loath a shot..That is Limbo's fault.
Limbo does two things that cause his death....#1 holding nose on verticle to a diving bandit...#2 neg g push in front allowing the shot.
From the screen shot below you can easily see the angles.
Not a ho in my book...especially when a defensive con is pulling nose up into a diving bandit....
As for a possible collision....negative...look at the screen shots its easy to see there wasn't going to be one...and even if there was it was the low bandit going nose on that would have created said collision in the first place.
From Limbo's perspective it looks like a head on but if you look from the fixed view it is not. Limbo NEVER has a shot.
(http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/limbo_ho_1.jpg)
(http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/limbo_ho_2.jpg)
(http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/limbo_ho_3.jpg)
(http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/limbo_ho_4.jpg)
(http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/limbo_ho_5.jpg)
(http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/limbo_ho_6.jpg)
Limbo's view
(http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/limbo_ho_7.jpg)
(http://dasmuppets.com/agent360/limbo_ho_8.jpg)
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It looks like Loathing got around just a little bit faster and Limbo failed to profile his P38. One of the things I tell my P38 students is to always show the flat side of the P38, from the top a blind deaf man with parkinsons could hit it. From the side, its about as small as a 109 and you'd be surprised how often it can save you.
Regardless, Limbo has a well known propensity for complaining. He was complaining about spies just the other day after his 4th failed NOE run to the same base in less than an hour.
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Even though I think it was a HO, Limbo put himself in that crappy spot and deserves to die for it. The plane on top there will always have the advantage. I don't think you can expect Limbo to pull it in much tighter than that for it to be guns off though. Any tighter and he is risking ram, which imo was what he was trying to avoid in the first place. What Del said though would have been Limbo's best bet but he instead one dimensionally flew straight at the enemy plane who had a slight edge on him. He deserved to die, but it was HOish and I think a collision could have easily occured had Limbo decided to ram him.
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Just looking at the last few guys posting you have a subset of the "who's who" of duelers. All of them have one thing in common, they naturally incorporate a shot defense into there reversal....in fact they pretty much count on your taking a shot. So they manufacture an early in plane look and transition to an out of plane ("getting skinny") position in the shot window and then back into plane as they reverse and pull lead.
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Oh for goodness sake I am not even going to attempt to read through the 4 pages of explanations on it...If you ho so what it ends the fight quicker one way or the other. I used to be all about chasing the tail. Now I take a shot when I get it because I suck so much more than I used to.
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Oh for goodness sake I am not even going to attempt to read through the 4 pages of explanations on it...If you ho so what it ends the fight quicker one way or the other. I used to be all about chasing the tail. Now I take a shot when I get it because I suck so much more than I used to.
:lol go on and tell it now! :lol I know what ya mean :joystick:
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Even though I think it was a HO, Limbo put himself in that crappy spot and deserves to die for it. The plane on top there will always have the advantage. I don't think you can expect Limbo to pull it in much tighter than that for it to be guns off though. Any tighter and he is risking ram, which imo was what he was trying to avoid in the first place. What Del said though would have been Limbo's best bet but he instead one dimensionally flew straight at the enemy plane who had a slight edge on him. He deserved to die, but it was HOish and I think a collision could have easily occured had Limbo decided to ram him.
I agree here. Keep in mind that this game is ruled by what every one is seeing on their FEs. To the other guy this set up could easily look as 100% head on. Now, since it was Limbo, I agree the shot is good and I would have taken it against him also lol.
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If loathing wouldnt have taking that shot there he would be in horrible position the next time they came to a merge...IMO. Ill pass this shot in a 1v1 but I know when this happens I normally get killed really shortly after that.
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its funny when people complain of these front quarter shots and call them ho's. to me a ho is ONLY when each opponent has a gun solution on one another. obviously that wasnt the case in this fight. too much choppin throttle in those flat turns. Sometimes gotta know when to punch and go full wep. If you (limbo) were a little faster you might have got your nose up a tad more and caused him to possibly pass on the shot. Then as he passed, immel and roll around on his 6. IM guessing His next move would be to go back vertical basically putting this fight into a rolling sissors (where they almost always end up.) You'd (Limbo) would be alot slower and probably have to repeat the initial manuever a couple times but eventually, if you're evasives are good enough both planes would be nearly equal E states. At that point its who's best at flying their plane on the edge.
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If loathing wouldnt have taking that shot there he would be in horrible position the next time they came to a merge...IMO. Ill pass this shot in a 1v1 but I know when this happens I normally get killed really shortly after that.
True, but that would be his fault. He had the advantage and the other guy forced him in to a bad situation. If limbo had any e left to flip his plane around he would get a nice canopy shot after that pass. I am sure loathing knew that and that is why he fired. As I said earlier, in a friendly duel, don't take it. Way too close and you don't get to see or practice avoiding the next pass. On a fight against limbo, it was a 90 degree deflection in my book :lol.
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Junky you hit the real issue on the head...
I always fly with the idea of avoiding that type of top down positioning since it does create issues, but if a guy is already defensive then flying for the under and that type of vertical reverse is pretty common. To me anyone (to remove limbo from equation) has to defend and then attack on a reverse. I'm not a big dueler but I can't recall anyone ever complaining about me taking a cheap shot. I never take anything even close to a face shot but if I've got the 3/9 line then I've got the option of either accepting the shot and rolling scissor or defending my position with regard to the 3/9 line. I'd have responded totally differently because I'd have been expecting a "skinny move" but from loathings position he's dead meat if he doesn't take that shot.
I can't count the number of times a good stick has told me "I got lucky" flying thru a shot...and I've commented exactly the same countless times. We all end up in situations where our best chance to reverse a bad situation is to go all in and try and sneak thru a shot window. I think thats one reason so many grow to favor the K4...you dont sneak thru a spud hit. I've won countless fights by absorbing a few 20mm spread out over the airframe during a reverse. I think anytime you haven't actually won the 3/9 line cleanly you need to decline any marginal FQ shot as a matter of principle. However once you have in fact gained that advantage the defender has to defend any shot window until he can gain a true reverse or extend enough to reset.
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There seems to be a habit in this game of immediately questioning any successful gun shot from the front quarter, which vexes me greatly, since any number of tight maneuvers can produce this situation- snapshots in a tight scissors, for example. I thought the reason HO's were found to be annoying and generally "un-sportsmanlike" is because newbies love to go for it in the merge, resulting in either a brief jousting match or a collision, which usually sends both pilots back to the field and wastes ten minutes for re-planing and transit time for no gain or purpose.
EDIT: My point being, of course, that pilots who are attempting to have a real fight instead of the suicidal head-on jousting match are justified in taking any shot they can get. If I'm running BnZ on somebody who can hang on the prop and has a cannon with a long reach (109F, say, with the MG/151,) and he puts his nose on me every time I dive in, then he's Doing It Right. He's obeying the Dicta, after all.
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Humble, what's a "skinny move"?
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Junky you hit the real issue on the head...
Nope I think you did :aok :salute
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Humble, what's a "skinny move"?
Hes talking about getting skinny i think....by pointing your wing at your opponents nose :salute
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True, but that would be his fault. He had the advantage and the other guy forced him in to a bad situation. If limbo had any e left to flip his plane around he would get a nice canopy shot after that pass. I am sure loathing knew that and that is why he fired. As I said earlier, in a friendly duel, don't take it. Way too close and you don't get to see or practice avoiding the next pass. On a fight against limbo, it was a 90 degree deflection in my book :lol.
I couldn't disagree with you more. Limbo flew stupid and deserved what he got. He needed better displacement and a move out of plane. you'd never fly that move without setting up an enticing shot...you'd want the other guy to accept the bait because he'd be DMF at that point. This is my only point with the entire "HO" issue. I agree 100% that you take no questionable shot until the 3/9 line is won. So you pass on all cheap shots during the chess match portion. IMO that means that the guy who in fact wins the 3/9 line has the option to either defend that position or cash it in for a shot. To me limbos move is an ever increasing tactic that says I can take a chance and gamble...if I gain the edge fine...if not I'll fly to a vertical reverse and pull into the other guy and claim foul if he takes the shot. This is exaclt what you see 90% of the spit's, nikki's and hurricane drivers to in the MA. I read it as Limbo trying to fly for a safe zone instead of flying to kill the other guy. Loathing did (IMO) trap himself into a bad spot. I'd venture that you, Lazer, Paws or any other 38 ace would have easily reversed him there...in fact he was totally out of position to defend or counter any competent reverse IMO. It is in fact a classic top down shot/reverse setup that any trainer would set up. I've probably got a dozen or more on film from working with guys on in to out of plane transitions in the TA/DA.
So to me the real message is to respect the 3/9 line. Fly to win it and to keep it. But if the other guy grabs it then accept the fact that he did and fly to either reverse or extend. Don't fly to get safe and diminish both his accomplishment or the fight as a whole.
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Humble, what's a "skinny move"?
Getting out of plane and showing the thin profile you talk about. Basically you set the lift vector to show the plane form shot early to set the bait and then roll it away and move out of plane as the real shot window approaches. Otherwise know as the "disappearing" 38 trick you guys use so well. Which also puts the tremendous rudder and control authority to work...basically exactly what you lazer and the other top 38 drivers do all the time.
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Hes talking about getting skinny i think....by pointing your wing at your opponents nose :salute
check
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Getting out of plane and showing the thin profile you talk about. Basically you set the lift vector to show the plane form shot early to set the bait and then roll it away and move out of plane as the real shot window approaches. Otherwise know as the "disappearing" 38 trick you guys use so well. Which also puts the tremendous rudder and control authority to work...basically exactly what you lazer and the other top 38 drivers do all the time.
Humble, I consider you a friend and I think I have never talked bad about you ( at list in public :) ). BUT!!! If you ever call me a buff driver again or associate me with a bunch of no good torpedo carrying two engine easy mode buff newbies, I will :furious :furious :furious :furious
:D
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hehe :D :joystick: :airplane: :salute
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its funny when people complain of these front quarter shots and call them ho's. to me a ho is ONLY when each opponent has a gun solution on one another.
If both players had guns on one another in this angle wouldn't that have resulted in a ram? That's the point I've been trying to make, if a player avoids the ram, he doesn't have guns on but the top player, who is controlling the fight in this spot sees this is a thin gun solution and fires even though it's pretty HOish.
Moral of the story? Don't get caught in this spot on the bottom going nose up at your enemy in plane expecting him to hold guns because most likely he will blast you.
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Thanks for the input. It would seem that almost everyone has had their moment with limbo, heh. I was just wondering if I spotted Grizz, Snaphook, or Dedalos around if I could ask you some questions about the weaker parts of my abilities? You guys seem to have a good technical knowledge of the game and could possibly help me(if you're willing).
Loathing
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Loathing: I do not consider that a HO. Limbo was not in position to try to avoid a HO, he was in a position of barely having enough E to continue rolling scissors. You chopped throttle, had gun solution approximately 15 degrees off his nose, and took a shot.
I have guys in the DA who takes 10 degree shots that I consider legitimate. Now, whether they are nice enough not to take that shot is another matter. :cool:
It seemed that that your duel was an unfriendly duel. So you are agressively trying to end the fight as you should without hoing and ramming.
In a friendly duel, base on the film I saw and Agent360's screen shots, that is a "marginal" shot that most of us could probably pass up for a more glorious shot (nevermind that could backfire on us :lol).
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Thanks for the input. It would seem that almost everyone has had their moment with limbo, heh. I was just wondering if I spotted Grizz, Snaphook, or Dedalos around if I could ask you some questions about the weaker parts of my abilities? You guys seem to have a good technical knowledge of the game and could possibly help me(if you're willing).
I have more of an experience based knowledge, a lot of other guys have the technical knowledge. I'd be down for some 1v1s one of these nights for sure.
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Thanks for the input. It would seem that almost everyone has had their moment with limbo, heh. I was just wondering if I spotted Grizz, Snaphook, or Dedalos around if I could ask you some questions about the weaker parts of my abilities? You guys seem to have a good technical knowledge of the game and could possibly help me(if you're willing).
Loathing
I'll be happy to pass on what I know anytime you see me up. however remember that those who can't do teach. There is a point where knowledge meets art and then goes forward and sadly i'm a paint by numbers guy. I can get you to a point in 2-3 hours where the technical nuts and bolts come into focus enough to make sense. You can always learn more stuff but in the end its the application of fairly basic techniques in creative ways that set certain guys apart. You don't need to know 100 ways to skin a cat...just 4 or 5 that compliment each other...then it's all imagination, real time thinking and gunnery.
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If both players had guns on one another in this angle wouldn't that have resulted in a ram? That's the point I've been trying to make, if a player avoids the ram, he doesn't have guns on but the top player, who is controlling the fight in this spot sees this is a thin gun solution and fires even though it's pretty HOish.
Moral of the story? Don't get caught in this spot on the bottom going nose up at your enemy in plane expecting him to hold guns because most likely he will blast you.
It could result in a ram but the plane coming down with the e should have no problem avoiding someone going nose up near stall. But anyways its all in judgment of what you see. I dont think limbo was avoiding anything. I think he was trying to get his nose up but was incapable of doing so due to poor e management in that situation. When in any kind of knife fight you have to get as close as possible with the other plane as you merge. If one breaks into a manuever too soon and doesnt actually merge then exposes himself. that is completely fair game.
Loathe being on top had the judgment call of taking the shot or not. He made the right call imo. I'd take that shot any day of the week. Unless you show me that you have a shot, I'm blasting your cockpit.
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Here's a good example in the 1st fight creton breaks off into a manuever too soon on the 2nd pass after the merge and catches it in the oil. It's a completely valid shot and i dont think creton had any complaints.
Later on in the film i am on the bottom end of a bighorn slashing attack. Granted it wasn't near HO but the tactic is still the same. Get your nose up as much as possible while also letting the other plane get close enough to where u can get the angle on the next pass.
Sorry its old and poor quality but i dont have any of my films from the hay days.. :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI
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Here's a good example in the 1st fight creton breaks off into a manuever too soon on the 2nd pass after the merge and catches it in the oil. It's a completely valid shot and i dont think creton had any complaints.
Later on in the film i am on the bottom end of a bighorn slashing attack. Granted it wasn't near HO but the tactic is still the same. Get your nose up as much as possible while also letting the other plane get close enough to where u can get the angle on the next pass.
Sorry its old and poor quality but i dont have any of my films from the hay days.. :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EElAjwTWODI
Who was the second opponent? I hope they learned how to roll right since this fight....very predictable.
I think the first shot was alittle cheap where you smoked his engine, not saying it was HO but in a friendly Duel that was weak :salute
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just my to cents.
Some times I have found that part of a pilots tactic is to fly as close to the ho as possible to get a better position on the next merge. Hoping there won't be a front panel shot or HO.
I was in a similar fight with a pilot we merged nose to nose three times I beat him to the merge each time, each time I held off on the trigger hoping to see the fight develop, the fourth time I didn't and it was just as close well he pulled the trigger and I went poof.
So if Im to the merge first I start shooting if the other guy flys through my guns so be it. :salute
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Who was the second opponent? I hope they learned how to roll right since this fight....very predictable.
I think the first shot was alittle cheap where you smoked his engine, not saying it was HO but in a friendly Duel that was weak :salute
Lol I'll let bighorn know you have some pointers for him. PS rolling right in a p51? not the smartest idea. You sir are a no-go at this station. :salute
And that 1st shot was not weak at all. It was me capitalizing on a mistake he made. If he waited a half second longer it wouldnt have happened. why should i let him get an edge? Thats just setting myself up for failure.
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Lol I'll let bighorn know you have some pointers for him. PS rolling right in a p51? not the smartest idea. You sir are a no-go at this station. :salute
And that 1st shot was not weak at all. It was me capitalizing on a mistake he made. If he waited a half second longer it wouldnt have happened. why should i let him get an edge? Thats just setting myself up for failure.
Ill start off saying you have never flown against me so maybe I could give bighorn some tips(whos bighorn?),you just dont know. Second the first bolded area....they say that about 109s as well because it bleeds E, but when used right it can also give you angles :aok That shot was on the second merge.....he didnt get anything there on you angles speaking, you were below him with your nose in great position to have a huge advantage coming out of the initial merge and into the scissors that would soon come. This has been said before these shots are all just an opinion to his their own, I still think its weak and is a path of least resistence in winning a fight. :salute
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well if you ever get into a rolling scissors and attempt to reverse and roll right against the prop without stalling or getting shot down let me know i'd like to see that film :) .. and bighorn is one of the best sticks of games past and has taught many of the current (and past) top sticks in the game.
and i find it funny that you would bring up scissors and call front quarter deflection shots weak considering a majority of horizontal and vertical scissor fights end up with the victor taking a front quarter deflection.
when you're coming face to face with an opponent you merge you dont break off and expose your plane. thats just idiocy.
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I had one of me and Lazer fighting 38J vs K4 where I remembered getting the killshot coming over the top to the right. I like rolling right for the kill shot becuase when aiming the shot I can bring my nose to the left faster with the torque.....Grizz has a 30mm thread explaining that better then I ever could.
EDIT: watch this video I made, will show at 3 minutes till about 5 where i get into some scissors with a G14, he gets worked because he was predictable all I did was go far right when he was trying to come over the top
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vudletBfGe0
almost forgot the video :D
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Ill start off saying you have never flown against me so maybe I could give bighorn some tips(whos bighorn?),
:lol
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was good flying but didnt really see anything that proved your point. I mean there was a lot of leftward rolling scissors there. the 2 or so times you went against the prop weren't really comparable to a low and slow duel. And as for being predictable, ACM has been around for about 90 years now. I doubt anybody will be showing much innovation, especially in a video game.
Basically if you are already committed to a rolling scissors fight as we were and already riding the envelope as we were then decided to attempt a reverse by going against the prop, chances are you will snap roll and hit a tree if you didnt get shot down by the guy going with the prop coming around on your 6.
Not saying you dont know what you're talking about just saying at that point in the fight imo a decision like that would cost u the fight.
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Humble, what's a "skinny move"?
It looks like Loathing got around just a little bit faster and Limbo failed to profile his P38. One of the things I tell my P38 students is to always show the flat side of the P38, from the top a blind deaf man with parkinsons could hit it. From the side, its about as small as a 109 and you'd be surprised how often it can save you.
(guess someone didn't read my post from earlier) :D
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Ill start off saying you have never flown against me so maybe I could give bighorn some tips(whos bighorn?),you just dont know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EJa3griOMg)
never met/fought the guy but I'm presuming hes the guy flying point 2 point inside the other guy's scissors its quite difficult, having flew 109s a lot myself its looks more like an 09 pilot in the seat. I used to use that a lot against better turning planes when I was starting to lag behind speed/e wise in the scissors, its very difficult to control. Also from what I heard Domin is an excellent stick himself which makes this an even more amazing video! I can't believe its only got 7 bloody ratings :mad:
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(guess someone didn't read my post from earlier) :D
I thought it was 733t buff speak for calibrating your bomb site :(
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was good flying but didnt really see anything that proved your point. I mean there was a lot of leftward rolling scissors there. the 2 or so times you went against the prop weren't really comparable to a low and slow duel. And as for being predictable, ACM has been around for about 90 years now. I doubt anybody will be showing much innovation, especially in a video game.
Basically if you are already committed to a rolling scissors fight as we were and already riding the envelope as we were then decided to attempt a reverse by going against the prop, chances are you will snap roll and hit a tree if you didnt get shot down by the guy going with the prop coming around on your 6.
Not saying you dont know what you're talking about just saying at that point in the fight imo a decision like that would cost u the fight.
Both the shots came off a right roll but I misunderstood what you meant earlier honestly. Your right it was a faster scissor at the time and I used it honestly to slow down behind the guy,he wasnt picking up on what I was doing. :salute
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Ill start off saying you have never flown against me so maybe I could give bighorn some tips(whos bighorn?),you just dont know.
LOL! We do know and believe us when we say it, you giving tips to Bighorn is like a vegetarian giving a cannibal tips on how to cook meat.
ack-ack
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I dont see how anyone is judging that shot without seeing the film.. lol nobody knows his speed, or the path he took before that photo. :rolleyes:
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No!
And well done! :aok :salute
Mutley
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LOL! We do know and believe us when we say it, you giving tips to Bighorn is like a vegetarian giving a cannibal tips on how to cook meat.
ack-ack
I dont know him so honestly Im ignorant about his flying style, Im always open to advice/tips.....I was just pointing out something I found as being an easy way for someone to kill you, If you watched the films Tw9 posted you see he does a similar move I did during the fight I posted...it gave him an edge in those scissors...What I wasnt thinking about was the speed the fight was at which Tw9 was talking about.....thats why I corrected myself. Do you have a problem with that? or just me :noid
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Don't concern yourself with Limblo! He's a sweetheartbag :aok :aok
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I dont see how anyone is judging that shot without seeing the film.. lol nobody knows his speed, or the path he took before that photo. :rolleyes:
lol the film is posted in the very beginning of thread numbnuts :aok :rofl :joystick:
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I dont know him so honestly Im ignorant about his flying style, Im always open to advice/tips.....I was just pointing out something I found as being an easy way for someone to kill you, If you watched the films Tw9 posted you see he does a similar move I did during the fight I posted...it gave him an edge in those scissors...What I wasnt thinking about was the speed the fight was at which Tw9 was talking about.....thats why I corrected myself. Do you have a problem with that? or just me :noid
lol if u are talking about the move i made at the beginning of the fight, it was actually a mistake and nearly got me killed. I was in a very bad state early on in that fight because of that. He had a shot on me if you notice when he came around. I'm guessin he might have thought the window for it wasnt that great and didnt want to risk it. For some reason he passed on it. Maybe thinking he could work a better solution.
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lol if u are talking about the move i made at the beginning of the fight, it was actually a mistake and nearly got me killed. I was in a very bad state early on in that fight because of that. He had a shot on me if you notice when he came around. I'm guessin he might have thought the window for it wasnt that great and didnt want to risk it. For some reason he passed on it. Maybe thinking he could work a better solution.
He passed because he was never there for the kill.
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Ill start off saying you have never flown against me so maybe I could give bighorn some tips(whos bighorn?),you just dont know. Second the first bolded area....they say that about 109s as well because it bleeds E, but when used right it can also give you angles :aok That shot was on the second merge.....he didnt get anything there on you angles speaking, you were below him with your nose in great position to have a huge advantage coming out of the initial merge and into the scissors that would soon come. This has been said before these shots are all just an opinion to his their own, I still think its weak and is a path of least resistence in winning a fight. :salute
I guess you don't know either one of the pilots. Creton is not the kind of guy you want to give any edge to when dueling and you can rest assured that he won't give any edge to you either.
Had TW presented the same shot to Creton ... Creton would have taken it. Had TW passed on the shot, Creton probably would have been pissed cause he knew for sure he blew the merge and should have been taken out. When dueling guys like Creton you take the shot when it presents itself ... as always, there are lots more planes in the hanger to try and do it again. Creton can take what you may perceive a "good situation" or advantage and before you know it ... your dead.
And ... all the above applies to Bighorn too.
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I flown against Creton acouple times, exchanged acouple of kills and deaths with him but never had it be in a shot like that, normally it came during scissors later in the fight.
:salute
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Ill start off saying you have never flown against me so maybe I could give bighorn some tips(whos bighorn?),you just dont know.
:confused:
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He passed because he was never there for the kill.
what do u mean? just curious. like blacked out? or maybe his nose was too high and couldnt see me? can never know for sure but from my pov looked like he had a shot
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what do u mean? just curious. like blacked out? or maybe his nose was too high and couldnt see me? can never know for sure but from my pov looked like he had a shot
Most of the time he will would drag the fight out as long as he could instead of taking a shot that might only cause oil damage or a PW. If he thought he could make you explode he would fire, but if as you said he was not sure it was a kill shot, he'd rather see the fight to the end than end it with a PW or oil, rad etc.
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ok isee ur point but from my pov it looked like a left rear quarter shot. i think his nose was a little high and might have not seen me or had his sights above me
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ok isee ur point but from my pov it looked like a left rear quarter shot. i think his nose was a little high and might have not seen me or had his sights above me
Possible, I don't know what he can see.