Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: humble on February 01, 2010, 11:58:52 AM
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Figure as long as I'm doing it I need to brush up a bit (or a lot) on stuff. I simply don't ever really do much of the on the deck dueling. Outside of gunnery issues which are probably not all that correctable I keep seeing the same couple of things. However I know from my own outdated time as a trainer that the root cause of what we "see" is often either elsewhere or is really the by product of a misconception that channels you to the unwanted and often repeated outcome. Now given that my problems are all vs very top end sticks it's certainly not all conceptual. But no question that I need to refine a few things since what i'm seeing isn't compatable with what I'm getting if you know what I mean...
As a general rule just flying over Fri-Sun but certainly can make time whenever convenient.
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Not a trainer, or even that good at dueling but happy to have a few 1v1's with ya if you see me online. I've actually been trying to work on my 1v1's/dueling lately as well.
I know what you mean, I often see something that doesn't match what my expectations are in my mind which is usually the result of some lack of understanding or incorrect reasoning. Maybe we could both learn something. :)
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happy to hook up anytime. Was hanging in the DA over the weekend but wasn't alot going on. Basically was flying a some middling planes "my way" which quickly leads me to basic issues vs top sticks. About 10-15% plane matchup and some measure of gunnery in the sense that most high end duelers dont miss much (in Grizz's case at all) but 60%? or so is fundamentally E vs angles related in the vertical. I've got a pretty good idea of a few things I can change that "might" help...but its more if this gets you killed all the time then try that vs a sound conceptual understanding. :airplane:
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So you went against Grizz over the weekend?( I think I read right ) Dont be predictable especially with sticks like him. You need to be random with different types of merges not always doing the normal immelmen merge. Also use a bunch of different rides(not your normal) If you fly hogs fly 109s, fly 109s fly hogs...completely different fighting styles in those rides. The more you know about how good sticks fly a certain ride the more your gunna win.
:salute
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Not Grizz specific at all. No question he's a tough tough nut to crack but there are 25-30 guys that easily come to mind. To be honest I wasn't flying to "win" as much as I was flying to establish my own current level. Stuck with a ki-61 and then la-5...both good planes but not uber. I can certainly go thru and post a few clips but its not what the other guy is doing as much as what I'm doing/not doing. Obviously as I change so will the other guys reaction. But the 1st step in refining my own understanding of cause and effect...
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If I see you in there I'll join you. I enjoy 1v1. I don't usually duel but I expect it will be fun.
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I'm always up for a 1 on 1 and always have been. That being said this is a reverse in that 90% of the time I'm the one being asked for help. Grizz, Mazz, Skyrock or any of the top "duelers" are all more then willing to share info and opinion...all you need to do is ask. The flip side is that it's not always easy to step into the other guys mindset and define what he "see's" and then work to troubleshoot it. Part of the issue is me in the sense I've never put a priority on "dueling". I'm much more comfortable in a less defined environment where every disadvantage has a corresponding advantage. So where I see opportunity there isn't and where I see disadvantage there is opportunity. Things are both more straight forward yet more obscured since the "even" start creates a different set of issues. This is simply the 1st time I've ever really looked at dueling beyond teaching it to an intermediate level....there is a whole lot of rare air beyond that I haven't really bothered with....till now.
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I'm always up for a 1 on 1 and always have been. That being said this is a reverse in that 90% of the time I'm the one being asked for help. Grizz, Mazz, Skyrock or any of the top "duelers" are all more then willing to share info and opinion...all you need to do is ask. The flip side is that it's not always easy to step into the other guys mindset and define what he "see's" and then work to troubleshoot it. Part of the issue is me in the sense I've never put a priority on "dueling". I'm much more comfortable in a less defined environment where every disadvantage has a corresponding advantage. So where I see opportunity there isn't and where I see disadvantage there is opportunity. Things are both more straight forward yet more obscured since the "even" start creates a different set of issues. This is simply the 1st time I've ever really looked at dueling beyond teaching it to an intermediate level....there is a whole lot of rare air beyond that I haven't really bothered with....till now.
Minus the teaching part that all sounds eerily familiar. I generally feel that I win more of the 1v1's I get into in the MA's than I lose but in most cases there are starting parameters that dictate what happens at the merge and give me something to work with and try to exploit to gain advantage. A neutral, co-E merge is a rarity and frankly something I don't handle very well at all. It's also something I find myself really interested in working on lately.
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Minus the teaching part that all sounds eerily familiar. I generally feel that I win more of the 1v1's I get into in the MA's than I lose but in most cases there are starting parameters that dictate what happens at the merge and give me something to work with and try to exploit to gain advantage. A neutral, co-E merge is a rarity and frankly something I don't handle very well at all. It's also something I find myself really interested in working on lately.
Im just wondering.....Do you like being on the E- side of the fight at all in the MA? Personally I feel Im better with E- then E same situations.
:salute
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It's a function of manufacturing an advantage vs recognizing one. I'm probably one of the "better" duelers in the game in the sense that I handle the plane well and understand ACM. So vs a large % I can fly "read and react" or fly an E or angles opener and win. But vs that very top end group they can easily fly a read and react and not only neutralize my opener but manufacture an advantage. In effect I fly with the idea that I'll capitalize on the other guys mistake and they fly with the thought that they'll force one. I get a similiar result in terms of positional "cause and effect" vs most of that grouping so its more a function of what I'm doing. In effect I'm flying in a way the prompts similar reactions across a grouping of sticks...so its more me then them
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Im just wondering.....Do you like being on the E- side of the fight at all in the MA? Personally I feel Im better with E- then E same situations.
:salute
I think I'm pretty indifferent in that regard. I'm certainly comfortable being at an E deficit to begin the fight, the only negative to that position IMHO is that in order to shoot the other guy down you need his/her cooperation to a certain extent. If I begin in an advantageous position I have more control over the fight and can dicate events to a greater degree.
*edit*
I should also add that since I generally take off and climb in a straight line towards the enemy field because I lack the patience to circle climb over my own field and lately I've been flying the 38G it's rare for me to get above 8k or so which means that more often than not lately I seem to be looking up at the bad guys, so I'd say I get more practice fighting from that position than the alternative (at least in LW, in the less populated MW you can go further before running into someone and it's probably closer to 50-50).
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Something I noticed from doing alot of duels the last 3-4 months is that the top sticks all fly alot alike as far as being 1v1. Some are better in a flat turn fight, some are better at a rolling scissors fight.....and thats what they try to go for in a fight. Me I was better at rolling scissors but got owned by vertical scissors until I found out what to do when going vertical, now I try to mix vertical/rolling scissors into the same fight(its hard to explain). Maybe the fight you try to get it too is possibly easier to counter? :salute
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Humble,
You know where I'm at, normally there around 9:00 central. Just hit me up with a PM first to make sure I'm not helping someone else.
:salute
BigRat
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will do...
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Not an expert, but my attitude towards dueling is that it's far more a psychological/strategic battle than an ACM one so long as no pilot is too far above the other in ACM understanding.
More important is predicting your opponent's move, or perhaps baiting them into a certain move that you can exploit. From my experience in the last dueling bracket, the advantages I generated in my duels were created mostly by flying a "no-lose" merge which brought me back to even with my opponent in the worst case and gave me a big advantage in the best case.
After that, it's just a matter of pressing home the advantage using "standard" ACM and good gunnery.
Edit: proper ACM understanding is a prerequisite to flying this way. The ACM understanding tells you what moves counter what others, what moves to fly to exploit a given situation, etc. Without the understanding, you can generate exploitable moves by your opponent but completely fail to exploit them.
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I can beat 60% of the player base in an SBD vs any plane of their choice. This is a simple statement of reality that there is an elite group of guys that are truly exceptional in a dueling environment...and I'm not one of them. In the end dueling is all about ACM. But as Grizz and others have pointed out it's often about very subtle management of relative E state and lift vector. Since my action/reaction stimulates similar if not identical responses across a range of these "uber duelers" it's a fairly simple deduction that I am violating a few fundamentals ingrained in these guys/gals. Specific to what your saying realize that at my current level vs this level of competition they are reacting to my mistake. So if this is a case of the "no lose" merge then you've got something few do. It would all depend on who you beat and who you lost to. To me this is simple...to go from good to better then good in anything requires applied knowledge. Since my overall applied knowledge is reasonably strong I have 2 points to consider. Weaknesses in general understanding of cause and effect that I mask via other strengths and "duel" specific understanding that may be at odds with what is "smart" in other less defined circumstances. Bottom line is I can not "fly to neutral" vs an uber dueler. Best I did was one vs Grizz where he commented he was in a bad way if he'd missed his shot (he didn't) and one where I maneged to auger cactus of my 6...other then that I got soundly beaten with my standard stuff (which I figured going in). Normally I'd just fly a bit more duels and get my stuff tighter...which will help me a bit...but in the end if i'm gonna do it I'll do it right...to the best of my ability. So I'll spend 6 months pondering, flying koth and seeing just how decent I can get...
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Not an expert, but my attitude towards dueling is that it's far more a psychological/strategic battle than an ACM one so long as no pilot is too far above the other in ACM understanding.
More important is predicting your opponent's move, or perhaps baiting them into a certain move that you can exploit. From my experience in the last dueling bracket, the advantages I generated in my duels were created mostly by flying a "no-lose" merge which brought me back to even with my opponent in the worst case and gave me a big advantage in the best case.
After that, it's just a matter of pressing home the advantage using "standard" ACM and good gunnery.
Edit: proper ACM understanding is a prerequisite to flying this way. The ACM understanding tells you what moves counter what others, what moves to fly to exploit a given situation, etc. Without the understanding, you can generate exploitable moves by your opponent but completely fail to exploit them.
See I disagree that you need to know what the moves are.........I like to fly,well for the fight, but also with this in the back of my head(a semi-quote from WMLute) "Its not about fancy ACM moves, its about knowing when to turn and which way to turn" which wins the fight :salute
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See I disagree that you need to know what the moves are.........I like to fly,well for the fight, but also with this in the back of my head(a semi-quote from WMLute) "Its not about fancy ACM moves, its about knowing when to turn and which way to turn" which wins the fight :salute
Let me paraphrase that. It's not about fancy ACM moves, it's about basic ACM moves. :joystick:
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Let me paraphrase that. It's not about fancy ACM moves, it's about basic ACM moves. :joystick:
I'm not saying you need to know the most uber crazy strung together ACM move.
When I actually apply ACM it's almost astoundingly simple. Nose down to increase turn rate, nose up to decrease turn radius, lag to reduce angle off, lead to get guns. Most of the fancier flying (rolling scissors, barrel rolls, horizontal scissors) and their counters are extensions of these simple concepts.
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I wasn't commenting on your post Boomerlu. Although I do consider rolling and flat scissors to be a case of when to turn, which way, and how much, I just wanted to point out that knowing "when to turn and which way" is basic ACM. I'm sure Junky knows that too. I just wasn't sure it was obvious to the newer people reading this thread.
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Hey snap srry I had to leave the other night just as you got on.
I would be happy to duel you anytime. I think I,m one of the guys you can beat most of the time though.
For me these fights happen so fast I have a hard time thinking through it then im dead. The more things i get down without thinking the better Ill think ill be.
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I'm always up to flying, if I can help great...if you can whup my !!!! and offer some insight even better. Trying to get on for an hour or so every evening for a few weeks. Then will start back in on KOTH etc. Looking at it as the next "challenge" so to speak. Spent some time with Bigrat last night and Bat and I are going to hook up with him taking the gloves of a bit. Got to fly a few with "the gang" in the DA last night again. Bigrat had a few excellent obervations that can't do anything but help. Hopefully I'll get a chance to hook up with a few of the other trainers and a few of the "uber duelers" over the next couple of months. It's funny but vs about 85% of the population my read and react does just that...you sit and wait that given number of milliseconds and "see" an opening. The next 12% or so you don't see a major mistake but you see an opportunity you can develop. Now that last 3% or so I just chug along and that "read" doesn't happen...I go from looking for "an opening" to "Danger Will Robinson"...to..."Scotty I need warp power in 2 seconds or were all dead"...to..."The secretary of defense regrets to inform you..." Accordingly a major programming upgrade is requirred.
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Well I don't have the luxury of not being able to beat only the top players. I do pretty well in the MA's winning most one-on-one's but for some reason I really stink at dueling. I did some flying with Sol, Lute and Karaya a few weeks ago in the DA and Lute picked up on some things right away that helped me out but I haven't had a chance to get back and do more work since then which I desperately need.
I did go to the DA last night to get some work in with the P-47N (my first assigned plane in the tournament) over furball lake. I was suprised to survive a me on three (Spit, N1k, P-47M) on the deck near one of the enemy bases but I don't think that will help me in a one-on-one duel.
Anyway, I'd be glad to spar with you but you'd probably beat me up so I'm not sure how much help it would be to you. I know it would help me.
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Love to BaldEagl, certainly glad to pass on what I do know....it's what i don't know I'm worried about :D
Just run a .f snaphook any time your on and shoot me a PM if i'm up....
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I wasn't commenting on your post Boomerlu. Although I do consider rolling and flat scissors to be a case of when to turn, which way, and how much, I just wanted to point out that knowing "when to turn and which way" is basic ACM. I'm sure Junky knows that too. I just wasn't sure it was obvious to the newer people reading this thread.
Certainly, and I was also more commenting on Junky's post.
And even though basic ACM is "simple", it's also rather complicated at the same time. For one, you have to know how to use turn rate vs turn radius. You also have to know what angle-off is. And that's just to understand what my original statement means.
The crux of what I'm saying is... in order to read and react, you must know what you are reading and you must know the proper reaction. ACM knowledge tells you these things.
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I find in a duel it is not so much knowing WHAT to do but WHEN to do it.
Timing is key.
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It's funny but vs about 85% of the population my read and react does just that...you sit and wait that given number of milliseconds and "see" an opening. The next 12% or so you don't see a major mistake but you see an opportunity you can develop. Now that last 3% or so I just chug along and that "read" doesn't happen.
I don't get a chance to see much of the top duelers in the TA where I spend most of my time. I do see quite a bit of the 12% however trying to be that 3% guy, some will make it some won't. All of that 12% can fly like that 3% every once in a while, but only that 3% can do it consistently. How do you get from that 12% to 3%? Most of the ACM I learned in this game, came from fighting better sticks. If you consistently fight better sticks you will improve, fighting those equal or lesser then you will not improve your dueling (maybe your gunnery but not dueling). I learned the hog from getting beat on by Optiker for about a year, after about a year of beatings I was starting to win. I was learning from what was then a superior dueler to me.
:salute
BigRat
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Hand eye co-ordination and timing plays a role, like it does in most games and most sports . Duelling is also a particular "skill" or part of the game that you have to work on to become proficient. Having seen people like Lev and Drex up close I wouldnt be surprised to find they had gifted hand eye co-ordination.
I play a little golf and you see a lot of people who bust their guts to improve and never get past an 18 handicap, you also see people who never practice and hold down a low single figure hcp. The top duellers would be the equivalent of those low handicappers.
So "knowing" the moves isn't really enough , you have to have the timing and hand-eye to pull them off.