Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: jay on February 05, 2010, 12:39:49 AM
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a B17 actually withstand?? in game AND in actually WWII documents
image shack sucks :/
pics from one of my sorties
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/453/ahss0.png)
(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4215/ahss3.png)
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(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc74/Serene_One/B17F.jpg)
'Nuff said.
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It is amazing how much damage they take and still fly.
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/fuselag2.htm (http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/fuselag2.htm)
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(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc74/Serene_One/B17F.jpg)
'Nuff said.
You realize that damage was from a collision with a 109.
Why didn't the bomber go down too?
It's just not fair.
:cry
wrongway
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You realize that damage was from a collision with a 109.
Why didn't the bomber go down too?
It's just not fair.
:cry
wrongway
Amazing it felt apart when it landed.
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Amazing it felt apart when it landed.
Was the ball gunner out before they touched down? Or was he already dead when it landed? Or...?
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Was the ball gunner out before they touched down? Or was he already dead when it landed? Or...?
well, i really do not see why the ball tureen could not get out as the 190 hit the tail end of the AC. The only crew that could have meet their faith where the two side gunners which could have been decapitated and the tail gunner. it took them 90 min of hell to fly back and land. I read stories that some where ball gunners where trapped and had to stay in the there till they land. and one that was shreaded all over the runway do to landing gear damage.
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well, i really do not see why the ball tureen could not get out as the 190 hit the tail end of the AC. The only crew that could have meet their faith where the two side gunners which could have been decapitated and the tail gunner. it took them 90 min of hell to fly back and land. I read stories that some where ball gunners where trapped and had to stay in the there till they land. and one that was shreaded all over the runway do to landing gear damage.
if you were a ball gunner and you got shot (a pilot wound basicly) your blood droplets would freeze due to the high alts sometimes......
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Oakranger,
If a hit took the hydraulics out the ball turret could no longer be rotated into a position in which the gunner could get out of it. I don't know if that happened in the case shown. Looking at the damage that B-17 took I would not be surprised at all if the waist gunners and tail gunner were uninjured. The fighter's wing passed through the bomber aft of the waist gunners and well ahead of the tail gunner.
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don't know about the ball or waist gunners but I believe the tail gunner servived and was stuck in the tail section until they landed.
ack-ack
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don't know about the ball or waist gunners but I believe the tail gunner servived and was stuck in the tail section until they landed.
ack-ack
IIRC, Dan (Who I got that picture from) mentioned that all survived (Though i may be wrong on that). The tail-gunner however, DID survive, and had to be very strongly coerced to cross the gap in flight to the relative safety of the fuselage.
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(http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/photos/tail/tail1.gif) It seems the tail gunner survived this one but only, he didn't land with the plane :O
How can you still have elevator control after this? (the R/H side seems unaffected though...) You can see the Elevator bellcrank assy.
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You realize that damage was from a collision with a 109.
Why didn't the bomber go down too?
Netlag.
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I've returned in worse shape than that. :lol I just wish I had taken a screen shot. I figured it was an every day thing that happened on AH, so I didn't. But it would seem that is not the case. :furious
Well, if much of the damage done to the WW2 B-17's, were inflicted upon our B-17's, we just go poof. This does make me wonder what kind up upgrade to the damage system will come into play when the WW1 fighters are released. Will we start seeing more realistic damage inflicted? In other words, will our B-17's come back with huge chunks and holes missing from the tail, wings and elevator's, and not just parts missing? Will there be "gear drops" due to the loss of hydraulic fluid and flat tires? As is, if we lost most of our vertical stabilizer, we just fall from the sky like a rock (if the whole thing didn't just "drop off"). There are pictures of B-17's coming home with just a sliver of their vertical stabilizer remaining. I wish I had better luck in finding these photos. I have the instruction manual from a game, Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, but I don't have a scanner. It contains photo's of B-17's that returned home with extensive damage inflicted to them. That instruction manual included a little history of the 8th's role over Europe. Though I would not likely cite it as a viable source for information at this point, as far more accurate information is out now compared to when it was released (August of 1991).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oav6I0DcfY&feature=related
0:27 The game manual had this picture and said it was the result of a flak blast. Wiki confirms this information...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-17_Flying_Fortress It is towards the bottom of the page on the right hand side...
"B-17G-80BO 43-38172 8th AF 398th BG 601st BS damaged on a bombing mission over Cologne, Germany on 15 October 1944. Pilot 1st Lt. Lawrence De Lancey brought the wounded Fortress back to Nuthampstead, UK, where the photo was taken. Notice the upwards effect of the anti-aircraft shell; the bombardier S/Sgt. George E. Abbott was killed."
1:37 This would appear to be a result from flak.
2:29 A B-25 flying without a nose, possibly from flak.
2:42 This one here, looks like flak damage as well.
My point is, if any of this type of damage were to be inflicted to our planes, we either just fall apart or go poof. To this day, I have YET to see a bomber "cut in two"... Sure, I've lost my tail, but have never been "cut in two". Maybe I've been lucky?
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Oakranger,
If a hit took the hydraulics out the ball turret could no longer be rotated into a position in which the gunner could get out of it.
Absolutely not true. If the power for the turret was damaged/inop you simply use the handcranks to move the turret around...been there, done that in a B-24 and B-17.
FYI, the ball-gunner had the best survival rate of anyone in a B-17, regardless of all the lore about how dangerous it was.
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Absolutely not true. If the power for the turret was damaged/inop you simply use the handcranks to move the turret around...been there, done that in a B-24 and B-17.
FYI, the ball-gunner had the best survival rate of anyone in a B-17, regardless of all the lore about how dangerous it was.
Well, shoot. I guess I remembered incorrectly. Thanks for the correction.
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Depends on what you define as damage. Are you talking about hits, or actual parts missing or damaged?
for hits, the Luftwaffe estimated it took an average of 17 hits to destroy a B-17 (from a 190, don't know what model, or what gun configuration, guessing the 30mm cannon in an A8)
For actual damage, it can keep flying as long as hit has 2 engines, wings, tail, and nessicary control surfaces, past that, you can rip a hole 3 ft wide and it'll keep flying.
In the game, its untill you destroy a criticle component, or untill it just up and explodes.
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Average # of 20mm hits for downing a b17 was about 20 or 2 30mm hits.
B24 took considerably less damage before they departed controlled flight, if hit in the wings.
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a B17 actually withstand?? in game AND in actually WWII documents
image shack sucks :/
pics from one of my sorties
<snip>
You're really only showing which guns were damaged. For a complete plane wide damage report hit [Ctrl] d :aok
They do survive with considerable damage, thats for sure.
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I've emptied all my .50's (P-51B) at one and it just wouldn't die. I eventually got pissed and rammed his last remaining bomber (out of the formation) just to have the satisfaction of knowing he went down as well.
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I've emptied all my .50's (P-51B) at one and it just wouldn't die. I eventually got pissed and rammed his last remaining bomber (out of the formation) just to have the satisfaction of knowing he went down as well.
What amazes me is that you'd come here and say this!
I'll ask though,are you sure you even hit the bomber with all those 50 cal bullets in the 51B?
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You're really only showing which guns were damaged. For a complete plane wide damage report hit [Ctrl] d :aok
They do survive with considerable damage, thats for sure.
if i recall correctly.....my left alerion and elevator were gone...my right flap and one of my fuel tanks (cant recall which one exactly,but on the right side)
and my rudder two. (i think not to exact on the rudder)
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"Average # of 20mm hits for downing a b17 was about 20 or 2 30mm hits."
Four 30mm hits.
-C+
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What amazes me is that you'd come here and say this!
I'll ask though,are you sure you even hit the bomber with all those 50 cal bullets in the 51B?
Those things can absorb a ton of 50 cal rounds if the are spread across it's structure. With the Bravo pony I've noticed the fastest way to bring one down is by hitting wingroots (or just go for engines), the horizontal stabilizers seem to take less damage. Could be that I'm clustering my bullets more when hitting those though.
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No high-jack intended- This is not unique to the 17, but probably began with it. The c-130 cargo plane still in use often landed in Nam with 1/3 of a main wing gone, & 2/3 of the vertical stabilizer gone and still brought everyone home. Can't find the pic I used to have. :frown:
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What amazes me is that you'd come here and say this!
I'll ask though,are you sure you even hit the bomber with all those 50 cal bullets in the 51B?
Was at D850, so I probably missed 50% of the shots, but still.... Or would the .50's stopping power have dropped to nothing at D850
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The P-51B is a poor choice to attack B-17's with, especially if the guy behind the guns knows how to shoot. Anytime someone upped a 51 against my bombers, I would sit and think, "WHAT are you thinking??? You are just asking to be flamed." Which, shortly there after, I chase them off or bring them down. Even if they used good tactics, I find 51's easy pickings when I'm flying bombers, especially the B-17. It's when they up any German fighter, I tend to worry. The A-8's scares me the most, personally, as they are not something easily brought down and carry 4 20mm cannons. It wasn't nick named the "Butcher Bird" for nothing. It's also the choice I use for bomber interception. I don't tend to take the 30mm cannon option, but rather, the 20mm.
I recall reading somewhere, that a tail gunner got shot out of his B-17 (or bailed due to a fire), fell 20,000 feet and survived. If I recall correctly, his main problem with the whole ordeal was he couldn't get a cigarette lit while he was falling. The Germans captured him and actually gave him a medal for that. I'm having a bit of trouble trying to find this story though. :headscratch:
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Was at D850, so I probably missed 50% of the shots, but still.... Or would the .50's stopping power have dropped to nothing at D850
D850 not going to cut it with any gun. Only high percentage way to kill a Buff is slashing attacks aiming for the pilot, except b24's I like the wing, as it burns so quickly and has a larger target area.
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Well, shoot. I guess I remembered incorrectly. Thanks for the correction.
Don't feel to bad. I know very little about the ball turret other then a lot of them hated it for a while.
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Oakranger,
If a hit took the hydraulics out the ball turret could no longer be rotated into a position in which the gunner could get out of it. I don't know if that happened in the case shown. Looking at the damage that B-17 took I would not be surprised at all if the waist gunners and tail gunner were uninjured. The fighter's wing passed through the bomber aft of the waist gunners and well ahead of the tail gunner.
I'm sorry Karnak, the hydraulics weren't the only way to turn or raise the turret. There were hand cranks.
You may be thinking of instances where the actual turret ring took damage, or flexed structurally, which then made it impossible for the assembly to move into the correct position to be raised. In those cases, if the gear was damaged, the ball turret was not the place to be.
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Ironically, studies after the war showed that that safest position on a B-17 and B-24 was the ball turret with the pilot position being the most dangerous.
ack-ack
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The P-51B is a poor choice to attack B-17's with, especially if the guy behind the guns knows how to shoot. Anytime someone upped a 51 against my bombers, I would sit and think, "WHAT are you thinking??? You are just asking to be flamed." Which, shortly there after, I chase them off or bring them down.
Which is why I was lagging behind at D850. The guy wrecked my oil, luck it was only a small leak.
FTJR, I was at D850 so as to not die. HO'd him at first, but he started manning the nose gun, and so I figured it best not to offer him a close, steady target. Bombers are such nice targets. Big, slow, and steady.
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The P-51B is a poor choice to attack B-17's with, especially if the guy behind the guns knows how to shoot. Anytime someone upped a 51 against my bombers, I would sit and think, "WHAT are you thinking??? You are just asking to be flamed."
No, the P-51B is not a poor choice to attack B-17s. The B Mustang can shoot them down quite easily if the pilot knows how to properly engage bombers. All you described was a Mustang driver that had no clue about how to attack a bomber and attacked from the dead six position, which is rather stupid.
ack-ack
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just out of curiosity, is it possible to dive bomb a b17 in the game? ( attack the b17 by dive bombing )
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just out of curiosity, is it possible to dive bomb a b17 in the game? ( attack the b17 by dive bombing )
Yes but your timing has to be excellent and can't be off one bit. I did manage a few years ago taking out a formation of Lancasters that were flying NOE off the deck about 50ft or so with a BFB from the Ju 87D-3. It was one of those 'one in a billion' kind of shots, I got really lucky and dropped the bomb (not thinking I had a snowball's chance in hell of getting kill) so it would explode just a hair ahead of the Lancaster formation. To my surprise, the resulting blast from the BFB was sufficient enough to take out all three Lancasters. I have tried many, many times to see if I could do it again and never have been able to.
ack-ack
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I've had it happen to me, but it was a lanc that killed me and my buddies attacking a tank.
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No, the P-51B is not a poor choice to attack B-17s. The B Mustang can shoot them down quite easily if the pilot knows how to properly engage bombers. All you described was a Mustang driver that had no clue about how to attack a bomber and attacked from the dead six position, which is rather stupid.
ack-ack
Ack-Ack, I didn't say they made a "Dead 6" attack, though most of the 51 drivers that upped against me lost patience, then committed to a dead 6 attack and were usually downed. In fact, some of the people who uped a P-51 to intercept my bombers, make beautiful attack passes on me. They were patient, setting up nicely before committing to the attack pass. It's these folks I tend to end up chasing away and not downing. I should have stated it as a personal opinion that the P-51B is a poor choice. That's my own fault there and I got called on it. But you still stand a better chance of downing a B-17 in something with heavier firepower than you would a P-51B. Of course that does not mean you CAN'T down them with a 51B. :aok The Tail Gunner bit of my post was referring to a Tail Gunner who fell 20,000 feet and survived, and was awarded a medal by the Germans. It turns out, it was a B-17 ball turret gunner that fell 22,000 feet. Here's two links about my bit on the subject. It also turns out it was an RAF Tail Gunner who fell 18,000 feet, that was awarded a certificate by the Germans, not a medal.
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1071076/posts
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?173042-Amazing-Parachute-Survival-Falls-of-WWII
I just typed in, "WW2 bomber gunner survives high altitude fall" into the google search bar. So if you are uncomfortable with the 1st link, you can type in what I did into the search bar and see it through that.
Yes but your timing has to be excellent and can't be off one bit. I did manage a few years ago taking out a formation of Lancasters that were flying NOE off the deck about 50ft or so with a BFB from the Ju 87D-3. It was one of those 'one in a billion' kind of shots, I got really lucky and dropped the bomb (not thinking I had a snowball's chance in hell of getting kill) so it would explode just a hair ahead of the Lancaster formation. To my surprise, the resulting blast from the BFB was sufficient enough to take out all three Lancasters. I have tried many, many times to see if I could do it again and never have been able to.
ack-ack
Yeah. You have to love those, "once in a life time" situations. I had a similar situation happen to me once. I had upped a 109K against a formation of B-24's and this guy was doing everything he could to ruin my setups. I eventually got some distance ahead of him and had JUST started my turn to make my attack pass when he turned in the opposite direction of my turn and dove (I have to give him credit. He was doing well in evasive action). It turned what would've been a solid head on shot, into a high deflection snap shot. As we were very close to one of his bases, it was the last pass I intended to make. I pulled hard on the stick (was using a mouse and was closing in on him at around 400 MPH) to just get the nose ahead of one of his bombers and fired off a single 30mm shell. I got an oil hit as I zipped by his formation (which I nearly rammed), and jinxed away. I didn't think it would connect at all but when I checked the buffer, it said, "You shot down (I forgot his name)". Oh how I so wish I had activated my recorder prior to engaging. I managed to bring the plane home to boot, though I don't think 2 1/2 sectors is overly far for a wounded 109K at 2k alt (the alt I was at after I was done jinxing and still had a lot of speed).
This question remains, Will our B-17's be able to withstand extensive damage as the ones that were brought home during WW2, with the new damage system update?
Here is a site I found that contained many pictures of damage sustained to B-17's.
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm
Again, if anything like this happened to us, we go poof. The B-17 is really an amazing aircraft. Damage like these brought down just about everything else, but not the Flying Fortress. You must give credit to those who designed and made this plane as it really did save a lot of guys from capture or worse. :salute
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The P-51B is a poor choice to attack B-17's with, especially if the guy behind the guns knows how to shoot. Anytime someone upped a 51 against my bombers, I would sit and think, "WHAT are you thinking??? You are just asking to be flamed." Which, shortly there after, I chase them off or bring them down. Even if they used good tactics, I find 51's easy pickings when I'm flying bombers, especially the B-17. It's when they up any German fighter, I tend to worry. The A-8's scares me the most, personally, as they are not something easily brought down and carry 4 20mm cannons. It wasn't nick named the "Butcher Bird" for nothing. It's also the choice I use for bomber interception. I don't tend to take the 30mm cannon option, but rather, the 20mm.
I recall reading somewhere, that a tail gunner got shot out of his B-17 (or bailed due to a fire), fell 20,000 feet and survived. If I recall correctly, his main problem with the whole ordeal was he couldn't get a cigarette lit while he was falling. The Germans captured him and actually gave him a medal for that. I'm having a bit of trouble trying to find this story though. :headscratch:
This was actually a story relating to a British rear gunner in a Wellington bomber, although you could be referring to a similar event, I read the newspaper clipping from 42/43 i believe, that was in a glass case at the Visiting Aircraft Section, at RAF Shawbury in England. It referred to a rear gunner who's a/c had been hit close to the English coast by a German night fighter, the a/c caught fire and the gunners parachute was burned, he chose to bail without it, saying he would rather die hitting the ground than burning to death.
Anyway, as i remember he bailed at 20000ft and he recalled the stars spinning around him, when he subsequently opened his eyes, the stars were static and he had landed almost uninjured in a freshly ploughed field.
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Volron, what is your game ID?
I wana see if I shot you down.
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Volron, what is your game ID?
I wana see if I shot you down.
Nope. You can't possible have shot me down, not within the last 6 months anyways. :lol That's when my net died and I lost my account to deletion. Real life has a way of sneaking up on you and working you over. I'm Rook and my GameID is the same as my forum name. :aok
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Nice, I fly rook too. Yeah, life can sneak up on you at times.
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Not to hi-jack the thread but i do have this pic of a lanc with several holes in it. It wasn't missing any controls though.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss304/longhornsfan2010/ahss99.jpg)
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One shell from a262 in the wing of a B17.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/2006_sept7_3s.jpg)
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just out of curiosity, is it possible to dive bomb a b17 in the game? ( attack the b17 by dive bombing )
I think you'd probably enjoy the German Fused rockets on the 109, 190, & 110. They are the gray tubes in the wing drop section to your left on the screen. They detonate at 1k flight time/distance. which of course changes slightly with your speed, dive angle, & closing speed, whether you are going head to head or trailing. I'm not fully proficient yet, but love playing with them and learning. I killed 2 Lancs today with one rocket following in a 190-k8?. The other day I killed diving in front of Lancs on their high 12 and fired at between 3 & 2.5K. So there's a big difference how you approach, but the loud Bang! (Like anti aircraft battery) is lots of fun & surprises them. :banana:
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My dear ol' AH B-17 Soozy Poo made it home once missing all her ailerons and elevators; the rudder remained effective and was enough to initiate and hold gentle turns, and funky throttle control established just the right rate of sink to grease her onto the runway.
:cool:
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Not to hi-jack the thread but i do have this pic of a lanc with several holes in it. It wasn't missing any controls though.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss304/longhornsfan2010/ahss99.jpg)
I put 5 30mms in a lanc with my k4 the other night...bits came off, and she still flew :cry I'm not going to attack buffs with the k4 no more :eek:
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My dear ol' AH B-17 Soozy Poo made it home once missing all her ailerons and elevators; the rudder remained effective and was enough to initiate and hold gentle turns, and funky throttle control established just the right rate of sink to grease her onto the runway.
:cool:
WTG Soozy Poo! I flew a lanc home with 1/2 wings (both) broken just past the engine mount. very hard to control but had to make it to land kills for greasing a CV. :banana: :salute
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This was actually a story relating to a British rear gunner in a Wellington bomber, although you could be referring to a similar event, I read the newspaper clipping from 42/43 i believe, that was in a glass case at the Visiting Aircraft Section, at RAF Shawbury in England. It referred to a rear gunner who's a/c had been hit close to the English coast by a German night fighter, the a/c caught fire and the gunners parachute was burned, he chose to bail without it, saying he would rather die hitting the ground than burning to death.
Anyway, as i remember he bailed at 20000ft and he recalled the stars spinning around him, when he subsequently opened his eyes, the stars were static and he had landed almost uninjured in a freshly ploughed field.
There are a few stories of people jumping out of their bomber at 20k and survived. One i read that the guy fell through the stan glass of a church and only had a broken hip (i believe). what luck.
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Well I heard it takes just about 7 30mm to destroy or disable a B17 to keep flying plus I was in a B17 I dove from 15k but the time I was about at 8k i was 350mph. My back tail fins ripped off then all of them rudder everything then my whole tail wings then finally spun couple times and it just ended sortie saying you've been killed.Fun fact I was in a P40-E I dove from 15k with wep on straight down started pulling hard G's at about 3k or less and It was like nothing happened to my plane.
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Compression and structural failure occure at different speeds for different aircaft. Bombers tend to have lower structural limits.
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There are a few stories of people jumping out of their bomber at 20k and survived. One i read that the guy fell through the stan glass of a church and only had a broken hip (i believe). what luck.
Later parachutes on bombers and ejection seats had aneroid altimeters to pop the chute below 14,000ft where the oxygen is more plentiful and you're less likely to freeze to death. The early one's the 80lb. spring loaded and had to be wound and tested every 120 days. The newer ones have a blank 38 caliber cartridge to pull the rip-cord at 14,000ft. :D
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Later parachutes on bombers and ejection seats had aneroid altimeters to pop the chute below 14,000ft where the oxygen is more plentiful and you're less likely to freeze to death. The early one's the 80lb. spring loaded and had to be wound and tested every 120 days. The newer ones have a blank 38 caliber cartridge to pull the rip-cord at 14,000ft. :D
Yea, but some of the ppl that jumped out, their parachutes never open. They just simply hit the earth and survived.
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Few stories on this website relating gunners going down with their bomber wreckage but survived:
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html
Few stories off free fall survivors with no chute:
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffallers.html
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Yea, but some of the ppl that jumped out, their parachutes never open. They just simply hit the earth and survived.
You talking about that ball gunner who fell out and landed on the glass just as a bomb was exploding near by? Appearently he landed on an intact section of glass and the bomb blew that section off, causing him to fall a mere 15 ft to the ground.
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ball gunners dont have parachutes to stuffy in the ball lol
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Some carried them, but most chose to go without because, as you said, it was cramped inside the turret, and on an 18hr flight, comfort matters.
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Few stories on this website relating gunners going down with their bomber wreckage but survived:
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/wreckage.html
Few stories off free fall survivors with no chute:
http://www.greenharbor.com/fffolder/ffallers.html
In late WWII Germany through their troopers out over pastures at 50-60ft as slow as possible because they had ran out of parachutes.
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Lol, that must have sucked. Landing on the hard ground from 50-60 ft up going at 100 something mph.
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Lol, that must have sucked. Landing on the hard ground from 50-60 ft up going at 100 something mph.
Can you say "not survivable"?
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Lol, that must have sucked. Landing on the hard ground from 50-60 ft up going at 100 something mph.
"on your way down spell expendable!!"
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Pretty much wasting human resources right there. Just fly at 25 feet and toss them into a lake.