so how much damage can...

[Karnak]

Absolutely not true.  If the power for the turret was damaged/inop you simply use the handcranks to move the turret around...been there, done that in a B-24 and B-17.

FYI, the ball-gunner had the best survival rate of anyone in a B-17, regardless of all the lore about how dangerous it was.

Well, shoot.  I guess I remembered incorrectly.  Thanks for the correction.

[Nemisis]

Depends on what you define as damage. Are you talking about hits, or actual parts missing or damaged?

for hits, the Luftwaffe estimated it took an average of 17 hits to destroy a B-17 (from a 190, don't know what model, or what gun configuration, guessing the 30mm cannon in an A8)

For actual damage, it can keep flying as long as hit has 2 engines, wings, tail, and nessicary control surfaces, past that, you can rip a hole 3 ft wide and it'll keep flying.

In the game, its untill you destroy a criticle component, or untill it just up and explodes.

[save]

Average # of 20mm hits for downing a b17 was about 20 or 2 30mm hits.
B24 took considerably less damage before they departed controlled flight, if hit in the wings.

[fuzeman]

a B17 actually withstand?? in game AND in actually WWII documents
image shack sucks :/
pics from one of my sorties
<snip>

You're really only showing which guns were damaged. For a complete plane wide damage report hit [Ctrl] d   

They do survive with considerable damage, thats for sure.

[Nemisis]

I've emptied all my .50's (P-51B) at one and it just wouldn't die. I eventually got pissed and rammed his last remaining bomber (out of the formation) just to have the satisfaction of knowing he went down as well.

[morfiend]

I've emptied all my .50's (P-51B) at one and it just wouldn't die. I eventually got pissed and rammed his last remaining bomber (out of the formation) just to have the satisfaction of knowing he went down as well.

 What amazes me is that you'd come here and say this!

 I'll ask though,are you sure you even hit the bomber with all those 50 cal bullets in the 51B?

[jay]

You're really only showing which guns were damaged. For a complete plane wide damage report hit [Ctrl] d   

They do survive with considerable damage, thats for sure.

if i recall correctly.....my left alerion and elevator were gone...my right flap and one of my fuel tanks (cant recall which one exactly,but on the right side)
and my rudder two. (i think not to exact on the rudder)

[Charge]

"Average # of 20mm hits for downing a b17 was about 20 or 2 30mm hits."

Four 30mm hits.

-C+

[SectorNine50]

 What amazes me is that you'd come here and say this!

 I'll ask though,are you sure you even hit the bomber with all those 50 cal bullets in the 51B?

Those things can absorb a ton of 50 cal rounds if the are spread across it's structure.  With the Bravo pony I've noticed the fastest way to bring one down is by hitting wingroots (or just go for engines), the horizontal stabilizers seem to take less damage.  Could be that I'm clustering my bullets more when hitting those though.

[W7LPNRICK]

No high-jack intended- This is not unique to the 17, but probably began with it. The c-130 cargo plane still in use often landed in Nam with 1/3 of a main wing gone, & 2/3 of the vertical stabilizer gone and still brought everyone home. Can't find the pic I used to have. 

[Nemisis]

 What amazes me is that you'd come here and say this!

 I'll ask though,are you sure you even hit the bomber with all those 50 cal bullets in the 51B?

Was at D850, so I probably missed 50% of the shots, but still.... Or would the .50's stopping power have dropped to nothing at D850

[Volron]

The P-51B is a poor choice to attack B-17's with, especially if the guy behind the guns knows how to shoot.  Anytime someone upped a 51 against my bombers, I would sit and think, "WHAT are you thinking???  You are just asking to be flamed."  Which, shortly there after, I chase them off or bring them down.  Even if they used good tactics, I find 51's easy pickings when I'm flying bombers, especially the B-17.  It's when they up any German fighter, I tend to worry.  The A-8's scares me the most, personally, as they are not something easily brought down and carry 4 20mm cannons.  It wasn't nick named the "Butcher Bird" for nothing.  It's also the choice I use for bomber interception.  I don't tend to take the 30mm cannon option, but rather, the 20mm.

I recall reading somewhere, that a tail gunner got shot out of his B-17 (or bailed due to a fire), fell 20,000 feet and survived.  If I recall correctly, his main problem with the whole ordeal was he couldn't get a cigarette lit while he was falling.  The Germans captured him and actually gave him a medal for that.  I'm having a bit of trouble trying to find this story though.

[FTJR]

Was at D850, so I probably missed 50% of the shots, but still.... Or would the .50's stopping power have dropped to nothing at D850

D850 not going to cut it with any gun. Only high percentage way to kill a Buff is slashing attacks aiming for the pilot, except b24's I like the wing, as it burns so quickly and has a larger target area.

[oakranger]

Well, shoot.  I guess I remembered incorrectly.  Thanks for the correction.

Don't feel to bad.  I know very little about the ball turret other then a lot of them hated it for a while. 

[MORAY37]

Oakranger,

If a hit took the hydraulics out the ball turret could no longer be rotated into a position in which the gunner could get out of it.  I don't know if that happened in the case shown.  Looking at the damage that B-17 took I would not be surprised at all if the waist gunners and tail gunner were uninjured.  The fighter's wing passed through the bomber aft of the waist gunners and well ahead of the tail gunner.

I'm sorry Karnak, the hydraulics weren't the only way to turn or raise the turret.  There were hand cranks.

You may be thinking of instances where the actual turret ring took damage, or flexed structurally, which then made it impossible for the assembly to move into the correct position to be raised.  In those cases, if the gear was damaged, the ball turret was not the place to be.