Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bear69 on February 05, 2010, 10:30:17 AM
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I was looking around and was wonde5ring the reason why bomber convergence is set at 500..... seems awful sclose to me... you wait to 500 to shoot you wont have a bomber left. is there or was ther ever a plan to make it possible to change the convergence in bomber guns?
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Never really noticed that, but ive never had a problem popping fighters at 1000-800 out, once you figure out the lead on your shots, bombers can be very deadly.
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if you just fire your primary gun when they are not at 500 you don't waist ammo.. i only fire all guns at 600 or less... if they are 600 to 1000 i fire primary only (usually just 1 or 2 guns depending on aircraft) saves ammo for you.
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It's not too close. The bullet streams cross at 500 and at 1000 are no farther apart than the cowling of a radial engined aircraft.
You can check this using the .target command
Go offline or to the TA and type .target 1000 into the text box. Look north and you'll see the target at 1000yds. Shoot it then type in .target 100 That'll bring the target up into your face so you can see the holes up close. Type .target 000 to clear the target or make the target disappear.
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I generally use only a single gun as well, firing short bursts until I've got the lead right.. If they're coming in straight though you can get devastating hits with all guns at 1000 out.. Even with a deflection shot firing all guns will put more lead in the air.. The biggest key is to use short burst and make them count..
:salute
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It's not too close. The bullet streams cross at 500 and at 1000 are no farther apart than the cowling of a radial engined aircraft.
You can check this using the .target command
And if you do that you will notice that at 1000yds the streams are much farther apart "than the cowling of a radial engined aircraft."
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/fuzeman/Bomberguns.jpg)
The center ring is 20ft across, each ring adds 10ft of radius.
(picture by fuzeman)
Due to basic geometry, at 1000yds your streams are spaced exactly the same distance as your drones are. :)
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i think in the EARLY stages of AH2 you use to be able to chanve convergence on bombers but not any more
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The other thing to realize is the convergence of the fighters coming in. I may be wrong, but most everyone I talked to has their convergence set at 400 or less, 300 being the average. That allows your bomber to have a little more reach on the fighters. Personally I use "wake up shots" (short bursts) at 1k,800, and 600, once they hit 400 I unload on them.
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if you just fire your primary gun when they are not at 500 you don't waist ammo.. i only fire all guns at 600 or less... if they are 600 to 1000 i fire primary only (usually just 1 or 2 guns depending on aircraft) saves ammo for you.
:aok :aok :aok :aok
Absolutely great advise and good gunning tech. Primary trigger assigned to "Fire Primary Weapon", only the gun you're in fires a straight and true burst. Effective range 1K, or 1000. Not much damage though with only 1 gun firing, aim for engine (kill the oil), and/or aim for the canopy (pilot wound). Regardless, get a few pings on the AC, it's soft by the time it comes into range of "All Guns". Secondary trigger assigned to "Fire All Guns". Once in range sencondary trigger is used to activate use of all bomber guns. And as stated, use short bursts.
<S>
Rokit
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The other thing to realize is the convergence of the fighters coming in. I may be wrong, but most everyone I talked to has their convergence set at 400 or less, 300 being the average. That allows your bomber to have a little more reach on the fighters.
Not really.
The guns of a fighter are grouped much closer together than the 3 planes of a bomber formation are. For example, the P-51's gun batteries are about 20 feet from each other. If the pony pilot has convergence at D400, the spread will be 20ft at D800. Compare that to a B-24 wingspan if about 110 feet.
On the other hand, the distance between the three "hit areas" of a B-24 formation is about 70 feet each. Compare that to a P-51 wingspan of 37 feet.
The fighter can fly between those groups. The bomber can not.
I have all my convergence set to D350, but then I fly American fighters like the 47, F4U or Pony, I open fire at D1000, often having shred a bomber wing by reaching D800.
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And yet few people have any trouble blowing fighters out of the air from bomber guns at 800+
And if you do that you will notice that at 1000yds the streams are much farther apart "than the cowling of a radial engined aircraft."
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/fuzeman/Bomberguns.jpg)
The center ring is 20ft across, each ring adds 10ft of radius.
(picture by fuzeman)
Due to basic geometry, at 1000yds your streams are spaced exactly the same distance as your drones are. :)
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And yet few people have any trouble blowing fighters out of the air from bomber guns at 800+
Only because most fighters attack from dead 6.
I'm a lousy buff gunner, but I maintain a 2-1 k/d in the B17 just for this very reason. Once I see a fighter preparing for any attack but the slow dead 6 approach, I know I'm dead.
But even those pilots that have learned to use ACM and not to HO enemy fighters are often going into moron mode when encountering buffs... ;)
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And yet few people have any trouble blowing fighters out of the air from bomber guns at 800+
At 1000, I'll use primary gun to determine lead; between 800 - 600 I use "All Guns" & sweep from wing tip to wing tip (generally scoring a kill); between 0 - 600 I bring all guns to bear. Time and practise, 800 isn't all that difficult of a shot. Bombers aren't that hard to take down as long as you use the proper tactics. Those tactics do not include attacking from the bomber's six postion, where is some cases you're facing up to 12 - .50 cals at one time. From that position ya just know one of them is going to have your "Golden BB" :D.
<S>
Rokit
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(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7449/190tailgun.jpg) (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/190tailgun.jpg/)
My brother's gunsight works really well for level-six shots. The hash mark below center represents round drop at 1K.
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Nice Thndregg :aok
<S>
Rokit
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If you are flying 1 bomber there is not any convergence. All streams fly parallel with each other.
Convergence only plays a part with a formation. Then each planes guns are all parallel , but the planes converge at 500.
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Hitech posted while I was pulling stuff together - nothing to see here....
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If you are flying 1 bomber there is not any convergence. All streams fly parallel with each other.
Convergence only plays a part with a formation. Then each planes guns are all parallel , but the planes converge at 500.
Thanks hitech.
So, here's a tactic I may try with my squad. Instead of 2 or 3 pilots upping buffs with drones.....up 5 pilots in single bombers.........hold tight formation for defense. At 1000 to 600 all 5 bombers can bring all guns to bear on fighter(s). From the true 6 position, at that distance, instead of 1 set of 50's you now have up to 3 sets per plane engaging fighter, times 5 buffs......we're talking about up to 30.....50's firing on a nmy fighter at one time. :O (That's buffs with top, rear, and belly guns.) No convergence, straight shooting.
Interesting concept.
<S>
Rokit
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(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/7449/190tailgun.jpg) (http://img692.imageshack.us/i/190tailgun.jpg/)
My brother's gunsight works really well for level-six shots. The hash mark below center represents round drop at 1K.
You should share the raw file. :D
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You should share the raw file. :D
LOL......already PM'ed him begging for a copy :D
<S>
Rokit
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Thanks hitech.
So, here's a tactic I may try with my squad. Instead of 2 or 3 pilots upping buffs with drones.....up 5 pilots in single bombers.........hold tight formation for defense. At 1000 to 600 all 5 bombers can bring all guns to bear on fighter(s). From the true 6 position, at that distance, instead of 1 set of 50's you now have up to 3 sets per plane engaging fighter, times 5 buffs......we're talking about up to 30.....50's firing on a nmy fighter at one time. :O (That's buffs with top, rear, and belly guns.) No convergence, straight shooting.
Interesting concept.
<S>
Rokit
30 guns? No, you wouldn't. Unless I still misunderstand what Hitech has said, all the guns on any SINGLE bomber are going to fire in a parallel line - while same gun on the drone(s) are going to be aimed at the point 500 yds down the line where the the human gunner manning the guns for the box is firing (with all of it's guns firing parallel). This means that 5 bombers without drones will mean at most 5 guns on the target. If you stuck to 3 bomber pilots each with 2 drones, if the fighter is at or near 500 yds and all 3 gunners have him dialed in, he's going to get hit with 1 (gun) x 3 (planes in the box) x 3 (boxes) - or by 9 guns. And have a wall of lead all around him from the other guns, too.
<S>
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Unsure Ghastly.
I know if you use primary weapon, it fires only the weapon you're positioned at. When you use "Fire All" trigger, it engages all weapons that can target the plane. Now at the same time, this is true when using drones. However, I rarely (if ever) up a set of buffs without tag along drones. So I'm just assuming the same holds true for a single buff.
Tis something I'm definitely going to check out this weekend. But at the same time, how often does anyone up just 1 buff?
<S>
Rokit
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Unsure Ghastly.
I know if you use primary weapon, it fires only the weapon you're positioned at. When you use "Fire All" trigger, it engages all weapons that can target the plane. Now at the same time, this is true when using drones. However, I rarely (if ever) up a set of buffs without tag along drones. So I'm just assuming the same holds true for a single buff.
Tis something I'm definitely going to check out this weekend. But at the same time, how often does anyone up just 1 buff?
<S>
Rokit
Engages (fires) guns, yes.
Aims them, no.
As I understand it, anyway.
<S>
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My convergence in an F4U is 275, and I target bombers.
Get above the bombers, match, or exceed their speed at altitude...roll in...and shoot for the cockpit when you dive in.
When do you start shooting? Well, if you've set up right...and you're above the bombers...and a bit faster than they are... start shooting at about 1K.
It works at all altitudes.
Oh! Be patient...take your time for the set-up.....at all altitudes.
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I still laugh at effective ranges from a WW2 .50 cal at 1 kilometer, as they are in game (actually was killed at 1.5K the other day). I guess to make a good game, you make some concessions. <shrug>
Historically, 200 yards was already at the far edge of the effectiveness of bomber defensive armaments.
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I still laugh at effective ranges from a WW2 .50 cal at 1 kilometer, as they are in game (actually was killed at 1.5K the other day). I guess to make a good game, you make some concessions. <shrug>
Historically, 200 yards was already at the far edge of the effectiveness of bomber defensive armaments.
Yes and no. Well, actually more no than yes...
Yes, for of course a single WW2 gunner would have been relatively hard pressed to hit a moving target beyond 200yards. But so was the average fighter pilot. On the other hand, almost the same goes for the new to average AH player. What is getting constantly forgotten in such discussions here, is the fact that even after a few weeks, a player has massively more practice in firing his gun at "live" targets than his WW2 counterpart.
And no: The effective range for defensive guns in heavy bomber sin terms of bullet trajectory was much higher than a mere 200yds. And remember: A bullet fired rearwards has an ballistic advantage. Usually, the effective range of .50 defensive guns was considered to be ~1000yds, not 200.
That's the reason why the Luftwaffe was frantically looking for weapons being able to engage the bombers at many hundreds and even thousands of yardss, well outside of the bombers defensive fire: 37, 50 and even 75mm guns, WGR, R4M rockets and ultimately guided missiles like the X-4.
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You should share the raw file. :D
You see how egg is? He gives away my secrets :P I also use this sight for my 50 cal armed fighters and set my convergence to max and play sniper at 1K on running planes :D
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I still laugh at effective ranges from a WW2 .50 cal at 1 kilometer, as they are in game (actually was killed at 1.5K the other day). I guess to make a good game, you make some concessions. <shrug>
Historically, 200 yards was already at the far edge of the effectiveness of bomber defensive armaments.
There are not any concessions made . Shooting backwards in a buff has an effective longer range do to the physics of drag.
HiTech
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There are not any concessions made . Shooting backwards in a buff has an effective longer range do to the physics of drag.
HiTech
I gotta ask, HiTech are you a buff driver in game? (not being sarcastic) This is the first combat simulator that actually made flying a bomber viable (least first I played) :salute
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I gotta ask, HiTech are you a buff driver in game? (not being sarcastic) This is the first combat simulator that actually made flying a bomber viable (least first I played) :salute
I'll take a poke at something here - most previous sims had some version of the dreaded "hit box", which meant the developers had to use fuzzy math to try to get things to work out, and they rarely did. Or at least, not consistently through the entire range of aircraft matchups.
I (personally, this is just my opinion) think that the increased fidelity of the physics, coupled with a no nonsense, non automated gunner system for the bombers, makes all the difference in the world.
<S>
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I'll take a poke at something here - most previous sims had some version of the dreaded "hit box", which meant the developers had to use fuzzy math to try to get things to work out, and they rarely did. Or at least, not consistently through the entire range of aircraft matchups.
I (personally, this is just my opinion) think that the increased fidelity of the physics, coupled with a no nonsense, non automated gunner system for the bombers, makes all the difference in the world.
Agreed. I've always been fascinated with bombers, and pretty much been disappointed with other games when it comes to dealing with them.
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I still laugh at effective ranges from a WW2 .50 cal at 1 kilometer, as they are in game (actually was killed at 1.5K the other day). I guess to make a good game, you make some concessions. <shrug>
Historically, 200 yards was already at the far edge of the effectiveness of bomber defensive armaments.
I would like to read your Historical data that says 200 yards was at the far edge of effectiveness.
Must have been the Intel pamphlet that was passed out to the German pilots prior to attacking a buff formation for the first time. :D
Actually, the game is very reserved in the actual Max Effective Range for .50 cal. The M.E.R. is 2000 Meters.
2000 m = 2187.226 yds
2000 m = 2 km
1.5K is well within the 2k range of being hit.
The game does not even address its Maximum Range, it only addresses its Maximum Effective Range. Two different animals.
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I'll take a poke at something here - most previous sims had some version of the dreaded "hit box", which meant the developers had to use fuzzy math to try to get things to work out, and they rarely did. Or at least, not consistently through the entire range of aircraft matchups.
I (personally, this is just my opinion) think that the increased fidelity of the physics, coupled with a no nonsense, non automated gunner system for the bombers, makes all the difference in the world.
<S>
Flown more fighters then buffs. But we have simply tried a lot of things that didn't work. Eventually we found some that did. In AH we started with the concepts that we will not have auto, and a buff driver needs to defend himself with out a gunner on board. That lead to our current system with a number of revisions.
HiTech
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I would like to read your Historical data that says 200 yards was at the far edge of effectiveness.
Must have been the Intel pamphlet that was passed out to the German pilots prior to attacking a buff formation for the first time. :D
Actually, the game is very reserved in the actual Max Effective Range for .50 cal. The M.E.R. is 2000 Meters.
2000 m = 2187.226 yds
2000 m = 2 km
1.5K is well within the 2k range of being hit.
The game does not even address its Maximum Range, it only addresses its Maximum Effective Range. Two different animals.
The maximum effective range may well be 2,000 meters for the shell....However, you will not even reach 10% of this range based on the complex physics and the inability of using a telescopic sight in WW2 gunner positions. I'd like to see your historical data that says the Mk1 human eyeball can hit a target 40 feet by 20 feet at a distance of 2,000 yards unaided. Hitting a car from well over a mile....unaided. BS.
This is why the effective range in WW2 was around 200 yards to 12, 3 and 9.... 500 yards to dead 6. You may wish to consult training materials from the time.
There were rules relating to gun bursts, or rather the rate of fire. The student was instructed not to fire until the enemy reached a range of 600 yards or closer-beyond that, accuracy degraded. At that range, only a few very short bursts were called for. As the attacking plane reached 300 yards or closer, this was the time for the gunner to pour it on.
Enemy fighters had many advantages over the bomber gunners; they were faster, more agile, and had 20MM cannons with greater range than machine gun bullets.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/22367889/Bomber-Legends-aerial-Gunner-Training (http://www.scribd.com/doc/22367889/Bomber-Legends-aerial-Gunner-Training)
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<prau37: You may want to read that more closely.
From Page 5.
Students were instructed not to shoot beyond 600 yard because the accuracy degraded. But it does not say the guns were not still leathal beyond that range, Just simply it became more difficult to shoot accurately.
Read page 4. It describes the difference in ballistics at different directions. Funny how it uses 1000 yards as a reference. Why would it say anything about that range if the 50's were not capable of long ranges?
HiTech
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<prau37: You may want to read that more closely.
From Page 5.
Students were instructed not to shoot beyond 600 yard because the accuracy degraded. But it does not say the guns were not still leathal beyond that range, Just simply it became more difficult to shoot accurately.
Read page 4. It describes the difference in ballistics at different directions. Funny how it uses 1000 yards as a reference. Why would it say anything about that range if the 50's were not capable of long ranges?
HiTech
It's called "tracking". Furthermore, using the calculated drift at 1000 yards doesn't address the ability to hit anything at that range, nor the effectiveness of the weapon at that range.
Your application of bomber defensive arc is off. Take that for what it is. Every historical source I see says so. Don't take it personally. If you're gong to model the Ki84 with crap fuel ( a historical detail, however accurate or inaccurate) you might look into the ranges of typical bomber defensive fire during the period.
Even German writing of the period puts 1000 yards "well outside effective range" and a "safe zone" for setting up new attack runs.
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Yes and no. Well, actually more no than yes...
And no: The effective range for defensive guns in heavy bomber sin terms of bullet trajectory was much higher than a mere 200yds. And remember: A bullet fired rearwards has an ballistic advantage. Usually, the effective range of .50 defensive guns was considered to be ~1000yds, not 200.
That's the reason why the Luftwaffe was frantically looking for weapons being able to engage the bombers at many hundreds and even thousands of yardss, well outside of the bombers defensive fire: 37, 50 and even 75mm guns, WGR, R4M rockets and ultimately guided missiles like the X-4.
I'm sorry Lusche, with all due respect (and you know I mean it), the development of those weapons was for dead six attacks of more than 1000 yards, only. They were not designed for anything but dead six attacks, where the distance of .50 caliber rounds is extended by the slipstream.
The missiles and rockets were designed to create mayhem in the bomber box and separate flights into single bombers for easier attack with cannon. It was not an attempt to avoid closing into range with the American bombers, or to maintain standoff effectiveness.
This does not change the fact that 12, 3, and 9 attacks were still successful due to a radically decreased effective range of the gunner positions there. You know already that they were limited to 200 yards or so.
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This does not change the fact that 12, 3, and 9 attacks were still successful due to a radically decreased effective range of the gunner positions there. You know already that they were limited to 200 yards or so.
And this is the same in AH. Almost the only time you will be shot down or even hit by a buff gunner at D1000 is when you approach at dead 6 AND the buff gunner is a good one with a lot of practice.
The number of buff gunners in AH that can consistently get hits on attackers from more difficult angles is very small, and only a very tiny percentage (those with literally hundreds of times more practice than any real ww2 gunner) is capable of hitting anything at ranges over D400.
The thing I do most in AH is hunting buffs, and usually I'm even pretty safe when flying parallel to a buff formation at D1000 when trying to overtake it.
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I'd like to see your historical data that says the Mk1 human eyeball can hit a target 40 feet by 20 feet at a distance of 2,000 yards unaided. Hitting a car from well over a mile....unaided. BS.
.....The maximum effective range may well be 2,000 meters for the shell....However, you will not even reach 10% of this range based on the complex physics and the inability of using a telescopic sight in WW2 gunner positions.....
I have done it many times with a .50 cal mounted on a tripod on rolling deck of a ship at sea with a smaller target than 40ft x 20ft with my naked eye. Ever hear of a Killer tomatoe target. Its not BS.
For your second remark, thats absurd. Now your claiming it wont go further than 200 meters...... :rolleyes:
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Moray, no offense but...how many times have you fired an M2 in your life? If you had you might have a better idea of what it would actually take to hit a 40 foot long moving target from 1000 yards out...the M2 had/has a maximum range of somewhere near 4 miles and a maximum effective range of around 1800 meters at approximately 3000 feet per second.
Bomber - 200 mph = 293.4 fps
Fighter - 245 mph = 359.7 fps
Bullet - 3000 fps
Distance to target 3000 feet and it's moving at a speed of 359.7 feet per second toward you...do the math
Not saying that AH has all the elements of real world physics involved...nor the fear factor of trying to shoot something that is shooting back...but on a semi stable platform such as a turret mount on a bomber travelling in a straight line, it's not difficult to believe that an ambitious gunner might be able to put a couple hundred rounds of ammo into a plane trailing his bomber at 1000 yards. The waist gunners would have the least stable mounts and the nose gunners would have physical forces working against them...and they wouldn't be as accurate even out to 4 or 500 yards.
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I have done it many times with a .50 cal mounted on a tripod on rolling deck of a ship at sea with a smaller target than 40ft x 20ft with my naked eye. Ever hear of a Killer tomatoe target. Its not BS.
For your second remark, thats absurd. Now your claiming it wont go further than 200 meters...... :rolleyes:
No...in order to further your reading comprehension, I stated that those rounds were inaccurate at those distances, not that they couldn't travel that far.
I'm merely going by historical record, where German pilots repeatedly wrote about 1000 yards being a safe circle around formations of buffs. The US Army Air Corp gunnery school taught that any shot over 600 yards was frowned upon due to the low possibility of getting a hit.
As it is, just like the laser bombsight, the buffs in game have laser targeting for their guns too....at ranges up to 3X their historical effectiveness.
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Moray, no offense but...how many times have you fired an M2 in your life? If you had you might have a better idea of what it would actually take to hit a 40 foot long moving target from 1000 yards out...the M2 had/has a maximum range of somewhere near 4 miles and a maximum effective range of around 1800 meters at approximately 3000 feet per second.
Bomber - 200 mph = 293.4 fps
Fighter - 245 mph = 359.7 fps
Bullet - 3000 fps
Distance to target 3000 feet and it's moving at a speed of 359.7 feet per second toward you...do the math
Not saying that AH has all the elements of real world physics involved...nor the fear factor of trying to shoot something that is shooting back...but on a semi stable platform such as a turret mount on a bomber travelling in a straight line, it's not difficult to believe that an ambitious gunner might be able to put a couple hundred rounds of ammo into a plane trailing his bomber at 1000 yards. The waist gunners would have the least stable mounts and the nose gunners would have physical forces working against them...and they wouldn't be as accurate even out to 4 or 500 yards.
So now you're trying to tell me you have experience firing a .50 caliber weapon from a moving 230 mph platform at a moving 400 mph target, and that you can speak on its effectiveness? (what fighter is attacking a bomber formation at 245 mph, in your opinion, during WW2?)
This thread is getting retarded. Again, I'm only speaking from historical record, by the people that were doing the shooting. You can recite all the figures you wish, I'll go with the opinions from the people that were there.
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No...in order to further your reading comprehension, I stated that those rounds were inaccurate at those distances, not that they couldn't travel that far.
I'm merely going by historical record, where German pilots repeatedly wrote about 1000 yards being a safe circle around formations of buffs. The US Army Air Corp gunnery school taught that any shot over 600 yards was frowned upon due to the low possibility of getting a hit.
As it is, just like the laser bombsight, the buffs in game have laser targeting for their guns too....at ranges up to 3X their historical effectiveness.
This thread is getting retarded. Again, I'm only speaking from historical record, by the people that were doing the shooting. You can recite all the figures you wish, I'll go with the opinions from the people that were there.
Sorry I repeat myself, but my points are still
- the average AH buff gunner can't hit fighters with "laserlike" precision at D1000 either, we will only get hits at this distance on fighters on his 6, and with lots of spraying
- as a fighter, you are quite safe at D1000 at any other angle, even when flying parallel
- a good AH buff gunner has many hundreds of times more practice than his real world counterpart. A AH buff gunner with the same amout of firing time at live targets won't do that much better than his WWII counterpart. But most players surpass this number of firing occasions withing their first few weeks. You can't do a simple 1:1 comparison between a standard WW2 buff gunner and a vet AH player for that very reason.
It's the very same situation as for fighter gunnery in AH. More than a few of us are capable of getting regularly hits (& kills) in situations that would have been called "amazing" by wwII standards. But then we have tens of thousands of fights in our logbooks, not just a dozen or a few hundred at best. (And countless of hours training in TA & offline on top of that)
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Morey, first using words like laser gunnery is not a good idea, they only tend to inflame discussions, and you degrade into classic name calling. 2nd widening the argument with a bombing discussion only shows that you are no longer sure of your idea about the guns, and the use of words like laser gunnery also show you think you may be loosing the debate, because you starting calling things names to belittle them.
2nd I and others have stated /shown per the document you choose to use, AH matches it very closely, so there really is no disagreement other than in your mind.
3rd, it is very very obvious you have not spent much time in a bomber or you would not be claiming the ranges you do.
4th, You confuse what is normally done with what can be done. Just because you can be hit, does not mean it is wise to spray ammo at long ranges. But that in no way says that you can not be hit at longer ranges than suggested in that document. 50 cals still are still effect at 1k, they are just much harder to hit with when shooting out the sides.
5th go spend some time in bombers and see how much you can hit at 600yards out the sides.
HiTech
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3rd, it is very very obvious you have not spent much time in a bomber or you would not be claiming the ranges you do.
HiTech
It is not necessary to be in a bomber to observe the ranges they are getting kills at sir. 3 times this week I've died to bomber fire at 1.5K, when drawing abreast of a flight. Three different gunners that hit me at 1.5 K at approximately 2:30 position, and got the kill. At least 5x that amount have hit me, for damage.
Implying you can only know the range of bomber gunners by being in the bomber is ludicrous. You can just as easily observe it from the cockpit of a fighter, as you're taking damage
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It is not necessary to be in a bomber to observe the ranges they are getting kills at sir. 3 times this week I've died to bomber fire at 1.5K, when drawing abreast of a flight. Three different gunners that hit me at 1.5 K at approximately 2:30 position, and got the kill. At least 5x that amount have hit me, for damage.
You might have some extreme lag problem. You were not killed at 1.5K from the gunners view. You can prove it to yourself by launching a bomber and flying on a heading of 285. Bring up a 1.5K target (.target 1500) and jump into the ball turret to see it at approximately your 2:30 position. Fire away and you'll see that it's impossible to hit that target. It's the same for any round from any machine gun in any plane. It can't be done. The lower the altitude, the further the round travels in the game. You can hit a target at about 1,200 yards if you're on the deck, but not at altitude.
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The lower the altitude, the further the round travels in the game. You can hit a target at about 1,200 yards if you're on the deck, but not at altitude.
Huh?
This seems intuitively as though it must be backwards to me, because of the increased air density at lower alt, which would seem to me should increase drag, and cause the bullets to slow (and therefore fall off) faster than at higher alts.
What causes the extra range at low altitudes?
<S?>
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You're right. Maybe it's the opposite, but there is a difference. Off to test it now.
It's hell to get old.
Added: It's 1049 yards.
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Try it, you say it happens all the time, go gun some buffs and shoot some film to show me all the shots made at 1.5k.
HiTech
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they always sucker me into 400-500 yards before blowing me outta the sky.... :furious
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You're right. Maybe it's the opposite, but there is a difference. Off to test it now.
Yep, the .50 cal rounds will travel a lot further at higher altitude. Some of the MiG killers in Korea would take advantage of this in their F86s, firing well out of established ranges and still score hits.
Tho admittedly, I haven't tested it in AH.
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....
It's hell to get old.
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Ain't it though! And the worst of it isn't when you stop remembering stuff.
It's when you starting remembering stuff clear as a bell that a few hours, minutes or days later you realize was something completely different ...
<S>!
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I can remember things from 35 years ago clear as a bell, but I struggle to remember what I had for lunch yesterday. :old:
Anyway, here are some numbers:
From a front firing .50 caliber MG:
@ sea level, no hits at all after 1,050 yards
@ 11,000' MSL, you can get a few "golden BB's" hits (one round per 1,000 rounds fired) at about 1,189 yards.
From a rear firing gun:
@ 6,000' MSL, "golden BB's" only at 1,324 yards.
@ 11,000' MSL, "golden BB's" only at 1,350 yards.
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So now you're trying to tell me you have experience firing a .50 caliber weapon from a moving 230 mph platform at a moving 400 mph target, and that you can speak on its effectiveness? (what fighter is attacking a bomber formation at 245 mph, in your opinion, during WW2?)
This thread is getting retarded. Again, I'm only speaking from historical record, by the people that were doing the shooting. You can recite all the figures you wish, I'll go with the opinions from the people that were there.
Moray, I have fired the M2 and the M60 machine guns from multiple platforms...including helicopters at 1500 feet off the deck...and at stationary as well as moving targets. You obviously failed to actually comprehend what I told you...try doing the math and see if it gets a little more clear.
What you're missing from your documentation is "context". Bomber gunners in WWII had rudimentary gunnery training...and they didn't get a lot of "practice" like Naval or infantry personnel...it consisted of "wear this, sit here, pull this then release it, put this in here, look at this and pull this"...of course they would be told not to fire beyond certain distances...they would see a plane coming at their formation and if they had a shot, open fire in bursts until they couldn't fire at it anymore...and I guarantee you, in a life or death situation if the gunner saw a plane coming at him he was firing regardless of what the instruction manual said.
In AH I fly bombers once in a while...and I have yet to get a "golden bb" on a fighter with laser like accuracy from more than 800 out...yet I've been shot down by what I "thought" was a single burst at 1000 out but was more likely a lot more that my system hadn't registered properly due to latency.
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One thought I've had while playing this game while hunting/escroting some buff formations that happen to have some fighter escort, long range spray from a bomber to a distant enemy con just within range (lets say D700-1k) that has a friendly fighter con also closely presueing him (the friendly escort), typicaly results in the friendly persueing the con taking more damage/bullets than the intended enemy target.
This is something most will not notice with FF-off and KS-on in all the popular main arenas (OT suggestion: make LWO a FF-off/KS-on arena and LWB a "hardcore" FF-on/KS-off arena plz), but go try it out in a scenario or other arena where FF is turned on (and quite lethal) and you'll learn that getting close to a friendly buff formation that's in the middle of defending itself from an attack is just about as dangerous to you and your aircraft as it is to the enemy attackers. As is, most scenarios have informal pools amongst the Buff drivers, typicaly something along the lines of "who's gonna be the first friendly bomber we accidently tower because half of us strafe them over as we attempt to shoot down an enemy con?").