Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: trotter on February 12, 2010, 03:06:25 AM
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Perhaps this question is overdue, given how long I've been playing this game, and subsequently how long I've been confused over the marginal value of pairing with a single wingman throughout a multi-plane engagement.
We've all been in this situation before:
You're flying with a fairly large size group that you've never flown with before, perhaps in a scenario, or just hanging out with a different squad in the MA. As your group is climbing out, someone suggests, "everyone pick a wingman".
So I usually pick a nice ripe wingman from the vox list of people I have never heard of before.
Now what? Am I supposed to individually be a better fighting unit now that I am figuratively attached to someone whose flying tendencies I am not at all familiar with?
For me personally, at least, I know for certain that I am far more effective when provided the chance to be fluid during an engagement. I'm more effective when I can work in close tandem with different friendlies throughout the engagement, depending on what situation is presented:
-If I need to work with 'X' to set up a shot that I see developing, I'll call out specifically for him on vox.
-If I need my six watched during any particular offensive manuever, I'll call out to 'Y' who happens to be in the right position to do so, asking him to specifically watch a certain bogey for me.
What I really find little use for is my assigned wingman 'Z' following me, watching my six at all times, and generally being unproductive offensively throughout the engagement. And what's worse is either me or wingman 'Z' may put ourselves in what we know in advance to be fatal harm during the engagement at the expense of trying to make up for the other's mistake - resulting in the loss of both our airframes for no gain.
My question to the forum is: am I in the wrong on this? Do I just not know enough about how wingmen are supposed to work together? Or is this common practice of assigning random wingmen for the sake of assigning wingmen truly as detrimental to the combat effectiveness of an overall unit as I think it is?
And I just want to point out that this is not a knock against anyone I may have been winged with in the past, it's more a matter of me obviously just not knowing how to best utilize a wingman!
Here are a few more of my thoughts, and experiences with the subject:
I know a little bit from a tactics perspective about wingman theory...one being the aggressor and one staying higher and watching their six, and then switching roles. I certainly can see the value in that, however only if the wingman pairing is very familiar with each other's flying styles and general skill level. My question in this thread is more about the value of unfamiliar wingmen: is the value in having a wingman, or in some situations would the entire fighting force be better off without pairing into 2's?
I have had some great long term wingmen in the past in various squads I have been in, and would certainly favor jumping into long odds with them off my wing. However, thinking hypothetically, the larger the fight gets, I almost would rather not even be attached to those wingmen who I know and fly with very well. For example, if it's something like a 10v10, I'd almost say now that I'd rather go into that without being obligated to stick by even the best wingman I've had in this game. Surely that has to be something wrong with that on my part, no?
Some of the most effective large engagements I've been involved with were with a former squad, wherein if for example we had 8 of us, we'd have a team of 4 high cover and 4 offensive. The high cover would be used only if needed, for clears, and the 4 offensive would get the kills. But within this designation there was no individual wingman assignments; everyone was free to fly as the situation saw fit, without obligation of watching one specific other person, but rather of watching everybody. This enabled a more dynamic offensive and defensive force, in my opinion, and I would deem this type of tactic far more effective than the "Pairing 2's" wingman system. Can anyone convince me otherwise? I am genuinely curious if there is something of value I'm missing to the "Pairing 2's" style. Because as of now, I fly far, far worse with a single randomly assigned wingman than without one.
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It sounds like you have the right idea as far as I'm concerned. I am not a fan of the 'stay close' mentality in winging either. In a nutshell you should use your wingman as bait. If two pilots take care of themselves and use eachother as bait, it becomes a deadly combo.
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As far as I can tell, the biggest value to pairing up is to have someone dedicated to watching your blindspot while not yet engaged. Also, it delegates responsibility so an element leader can make tactical decisions (stay above the fight, dive in and engage, etc).
In a big squad fight, my squad tends to break up and move more fluidly and do what you describe. However, we usually retain element discipline until a fighter in the element is engaged. Leader's in? Wingman is usually in and all bets are off. Leader's out? Wingman stays high and keeps watch together. This extends to the flight level as well, although flights break up more often than wing pairs. That way, we can retain some level of discipline so that the whole squad doesn't dive in on like 3 enemy and have a 12v3. If we need to check out one low con, we just detach one wing pair so they keep each other out of trouble (blindspot watching again).
The leader/follower aspect is probably what adds value beyond the usual six-checking. Whether or not you can achieve that with unfamiliar wingmen... who knows? I'm lucky enough to fly with my squad on most occasions, we get wing assignments in FSO and nobody complains - if anything, somebody wants to be the follower instead of leader.
Edit: I do agree with Grizz's statement. When you have a squad though, rationing your commitment to any given engagement is a big deal, and that's where having wing pair leader/follower helps.
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I say use your wing as bait in jest but it really is incredibly effective. If you wait for a bogey or two to latch on to your wingy before you engage you are helping yourself and him at the same time.
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Wingman tactics work period.
That being said the more you can fly with the same wingman the better it will work.
The more you can predict what he'll do in a given situation, without having to actually take the time to communicate, the more effective you will be. Communication helps, helps a lot at times. Say your "Bait" has someone 800 behind him trying to saddle up. If you can tell your wingman "take him left", so you can cut the corner, it can make the difference between your bait living or dieing. Or "in position, take him up" so I can get a good shot.
Loose duece usually is more effective than welded wing.
I flew as "bait" for Wilbuz for years, and we racked up some pretty fun sorties.
It helps if your "bait" can fly and shoot his own way out of a wet paper bag.
We would often end up flying home talking about "I can't believe we got out of that alive"
Landing 2 - 5 kills for me and 3 - 10 kills for him was just everyday stuff.
Course the arena has changed some over the years.
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Wingman tactics work period.
but for them to work on a regular - consistent - continous basis, the pair or more............ need to practice "CONTINOUSLY" & learn to be "DISCIPLINED"
I do agree it is much easier to be able to fly with someone who is more equal to your particular flying style!
but when talking flying with a wingman, the Wing Leader & Wingman (follower?) determine themselves how the flight/sortie will proceed /playout starting from the time you are in the tower picking your platform ( Plane Choice/fuel loadout/ammo loadout ) and it ends when you land together successfully....... if at anytime in between.... the wingman does not follow the Wing Leader's request, or goes against the set doctrine..... then it is all for not......
being disciplined and consistent is KEY......... and the only way to get to this point is constant practice......
a perfect 2 plane winged pair can hold their own even if it is 2 to numerous larger odds...... as long as they fly with discipline :cool:
I understand the gesture of the term "bait" , but if you want to talk seriously about flying with a wingman, then this term is used in a limited way if used at all.... my thoughts ...anyways
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I think another issue is one of situational awareness.
Pilots in-game have an immense amount of situational awareness that doesn't exist in real life. Need to know where you are? Look at the GPS Clipboard map. Need to know exactly where your wingmen are, have them key up and look for them on the CBM. Need to know the quickest way home, look at the CBM. Need to know where the bad guys are? Look at the Bar Dar. Looking for the bad guys in a tactical environment? Icons are there for you.
With that type of situational awareness advantage, wingmen, in my opinion, aren't required for surviving the chaos of the MA. Without those tools listed above, wingmen become extremely important.
Wingmen tactics are probably the weakest facet of this game, because the MA allows a single pilot to thrive. In real life, most pilots wouldn't think of going into a fight as a single.
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Wingman tactics are highly effective, particularily wingman pairs, if both pilots understand wingman tactics. If they don't, as is the case with the majority of AH players, it's a total waste of time.
Two guys flying "locked wing" through a fight put themselves at greater peril than if had they flown individually. I fought two guys doing this one night and was able to manipulate them both in front of me at one time for a quick 1-2 kill because I could always keep both of them in sight using only a single view. On the other hand two guys who know how to seperate and properly react to the enemy's choices can be very deadly indeed. Like everything else this usually takes a lot of practice and a good knowledge of your wingman's flying style and skill level.
As to choosing a random wingman it can work. There have been a handful of occasions over the years where I've winged up with someone and the result was magic but those instances are rare. In these cases we seemed to communicate almost telepathically with little actual voice com but worked together efficiently facing very adverse odds. There's no better feeling than coming out of a 5 on 2 with someone you just click with that well but I can only remember this happening 3-4 times in 9 years in AH.
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Wingman tactics are highly effective, particularily wingman pairs, if both pilots understand wingman tactics. If they don't, as is the case with the majority of AH players, it's a total waste of time.
Two guys flying "locked wing" through a fight put themselves at greater peril than if had they flown individually. I fought two guys doing this one night and was able to manipulate them both in front of me at one time for a quick 1-2 kill because I could always keep both of them in sight using only a single view. On the other hand two guys who know how to seperate and properly react to the enemy's choices can be very deadly indeed. Like everything else this usually takes a lot of practice and a good knowledge of your wingman's flying style and skill level.
This is a good point, I think. Based on my short-term anecdotal experience, locked wing SUCKS and even a Thatch-weave type approach usually just limits both pilots of the winged pair.
OTOH, I recall a recent experience with a squaddie who was NOT my wingman. He called help down because he was fighting a Spit in his 110C. I came down and stayed on top of the Spit, making repeated diving passes and pinging some hits while my partner stayed on the Spit's six. Result: a dead Spit and an assist for me.
Keeping at least one of the pair out of a single bogey's view seems critical to sowing confusion and doubt in the bogey. The Spit was fairly easy to manipulate from above and fairly easy to kill from behind.
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Trotter,
Same as the high/low 4 x 4, only doing it with just your mate. One engaging, and one covering. Switch off as desired.
Long term partner is priceless.
EDIT: I should have added Trot, that I was answering in the FSO/Scenario context of your question but overlooked the unfamiliar aspect. Even pairing with an unfamiliar player will reap benefits. Welded wing, ie: follow the leader, is not the objective, but rather employing the 2 a/c in a mutually supportive role. In the FSO/Scenario context this becomes even more acute, as you factor in considerations like weather, and reduced icons, not to mention the differing ways players approach a one life situation. Just the added SA from a pair of friendly eyes is worth it there. As others mentioned, all you need in the MA to have fun is one good baiting partner. Your going to most likely both be offensive soon enough anyway due to the nature of the MA, that being the unending, or potentially unending stream of fresh enemy fighters joining. So again paring in the more realistic situations of FSO/Scenario is again a worthwhile endeavor, even with a stranger, and even the pairing of pairs...etc...is needed to effectively control a large force, as mentioned above as well, so as not to over commit your force, using just enough A/C to carry the engagement, while others cover, and look for the next engagement.
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Good answers, guys.
I think the crux of what I was trying to get at, is more in the context of a large engagement. For going it as a duo against stacked odds in the MA, I have been fortunate enough to have some good wingmen over the years and I know the value of them in this situation, as some of you have described.
But when it comes to large engagements (perhaps, 7v7 and up), I just perceive the value of having one wingman as starting to decline the larger the fight gets. This is because there are so many contingencies that occur throughout the fight, and at any given point it may be more prudent for you to work with another non-wingman friendly for a momentary offensive or defensive manuever.
In a perfect world, I would prefer to go into one of these large engagements with a wingman I'm familiar with and know that we can keep loose, fluid contact throughout the fight, and that each of us can manage themselves fairly well independently. But as I described, this isn't often the case. Too often, wingman assignments are random, and those almost always result in "welded wing" flying. While the general consensus is (and I agree) that loose is better than welded wing, is there any way to make welded wing work more effectively (since it seems in some situations to be inevitable)? Or is the best way to avoid it simply communication at moment of wingman pairing about how each should fly?
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I should add that when I mention "Leader/Follower" dynamics... I mean that we generally fly as a loose pair, but the leader makes the tactical decisions (fly to this airbase, detach from the group, go in, stay out). It is not welded wing.
And Trotter, I think you hit on the solution with your last post. You just have to communicate as to how wingman tactics work. The main problem I could see with your hypothetical setup is that the other person does NOT know the "right way" to fly wingman. Anybody that does know it most likely will follow at least loose wing discipline because (s)he will know the benefits. So IMO, the education is what makes it work. Sure you won't make an incredible wingman in short order, but you will have somebody that has a clue.
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Now what? Am I supposed to individually be a better fighting unit now that I am figuratively attached to someone whose flying tendencies I am not at all familiar with?
No, not individualy. But as a pair, you two will probably last longer: two planes working together make a less appealing target than a single plane, and his job is to watch your back, as it is your job to watch his
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I really dont post often. That being said, in reguard to winging it is the most fun and usefull "tool" in the game. I beleive with knowledge of each other and tactics many many odds can be defeated. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,257182.0.htmled.
Not sure if the link works, but search my old name and you will find a post made by a great squad in reguard to winging. If you would like the film PM me. Its using the format of the last version before the update. Actually reviewing the film of that fight made me make my return to Aces High. Been on and off since AH 1 with BigMax and the bunch.
That being said against going large numbers 6 or 7 vs 2
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I love flying with one of my squadies on my wing or having theirs either way. I will say its harder to fly wing with someone you dont normally fly with than flying alone. To really be effective you have to have pre-ordained reactions to certain situations or key words that can convey a type of attack or defense without having to explain the entire maneuver. Nothing is cooler than clearing your wing leaders six and both of you flying out of a furball you should have died in..or would have died in had you flown in single.
I'm still learning a lot about it, but IMO its a great part of the game. And if you are a newer pilot...if you have an experienced wing leader you can really start learning the finer aspects of dogfighting at an accelerated rate. It just makes the entire game more fun.
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I deeply apologize in advance. I openly admit I'm new, I've yet to actually see the arena, still trying to reel in my <3 of WWII the A6M2, etc etc etc insert lack of in-game experience here.
However, I have spent my entire life in love and admiration of war planes, maneuvers, and tactics. Historically Lead-Wingman tactics were trained, and breaking pair was taboo. Most pairs spent hours on hours as LEAD - wingman teams. Not switching places. Being Wingman does NOT take away any offensive capabilities. For example, The Tuskegee Airmen's one and only ace was a wingman (who i believe just died this year 2010). Most of his kills came from lagging and latching on to enemies who saw his lead "all alone," but at the same time, His lead would drag them through his solutions. THAT comes from TRUST in experience in skill on your pair. No trust, reflex and reaction take over. For a random I've-never-met-before pairing to work they both must believe the OTHER knows what he's doing. The Thatch Weave was devastatingly effective HISTORICALLY.
As far as Situational Awareness goes, your awareness isn't the same thing as there being 2 of you, even more unnerving when they're paired. Some fights (i'm sure) really come down to who slips first. That mistake is a LOT easier to capitalize on where there's 2 people.
I guess It's like this. Theres just too many variables for there to be a SOLID answer. A pair that know WHAT to do and HOW to pair and the skills to back it will be devastating. If either lack any of those requirements, It's probably more of a liability. In Dogfighting you NEVER leave your wingman, but you don't step on each other's toes and endanger each other. That's just sense.
Thanks for bothering to read this, I hope it was worth reading. :angel: Like I said in the beginning, i'm not familiar with in-AH and myself still trying to grasp maneuvering in AH, but historically it was needed for survival. They were also real military pilots who lived and breathed their training every day, and fought enemies that did the same thing. I'm not sure when i'll actually take the trial, but i hope I can be a challenge. I'm from a Jet & Space Sim background, specializing in evasive maneuvers... and having to UN-learn some things. Lot of things i'm just not used to and 2nd-nature habits i have to break first. Not used to stalling so easily, torquing into left rolls, and REALLY have to stop ripping off my own wings breaking when shot at. :lol
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Minakove if you're that big a fan what are you waiting for? Sign up and head for the training area.
As Ghosth pointed out there's welded wing and loose deuce and they are apples and oranges. You can do both with 4 A/C of course but welded wing in AH is best for inexperienced pilots who will benefit from following an experienced pilot through a furball. Loose deuce kills, IMO it's the best way to fight and the most fun, regardless of the number of opponents.
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Question about wingman pairs....Is it good to pair an aggresive pilot with maybe a more timid one? the aggressive guy swoops in first maybe dragging 2 or so with him the timid one stays high and clears his six...rinse and repeat. :salute
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is there anything better than a good wing-man ...
i love it when you find a guy who is on the same page as you ...
a good wing pair can be just devastating in nearly any situation ...
personally i like em loose in formation and tight in communication ...
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Totally agree with thorsim.
Junky to further define your question, it works even better often if they are in dissimilar aircraft.
One turner, and one fast can be a deadly duo. An enemy can't turn with the turner without being a risk from the fast one swooping in. Can't run without the fast one being a very real threat.
The better the communication, and the better they know their own and each others capability's the more effective they are.
Minakove I'm in the Training Arena most every afternoon at some point. Most often 3 - 5 central time.
If that doesn't work, email me or send me a PM. I'd be glad to help get you started on the path.
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Junky to further define your question, it works even better often if they are in dissimilar aircraft.
One turner, and one fast can be a deadly duo. An enemy can't turn with the turner without being a risk from the fast one swooping in. Can't run without the fast one being a very real threat.
being a "lone wolf", I absolutely hate running into such a pair, particularly if I note after a few moments they are actively communicating and really "teaming up" :joystick: :furious ;)
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Question about wingman pairs....Is it good to pair an aggresive pilot with maybe a more timid one? the aggressive guy swoops in first maybe dragging 2 or so with him the timid one stays high and clears his six...rinse and repeat. :salute
Who do you want clearing your 6, the timid guy or the aggressive one? :lol
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"Who do you want clearing your 6, the timid guy or the aggressive one? "
Both? :)
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the smart aggressive one
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Neither, I'd rather have someone Cool, level, and accurate. Even the greatest evaders get hit. The less time they are back there, the sooner I can breathe again :pray
I would really love to. Especially since there are some advanced maneuvers i would LOVE to learn. Particularly the Hammerhead, Torque Rolls look so fun, and the inverted flat spin. More to an aerobatic degree for fun. Aerobatic precision creates military solutions by nature of precision control. As Jackie Chan once said, "My cup is full." I've spent too much time in Jets and more recently space Sims. Right now I'm focusing on breaking reflexive 2ND nature reactions. I've survived in the past using harsh hard extremely erratic evasive randomness. Something i QUICKLY figured out won't work here. I've played that style for so long, I just react when shot at... and to that I can say I've learned how to recover from the tumbling stalls quickly so long as my Zeke M2's wings aren't fluttering to the ground in front of me. I'm getting to the point I'm getting better at paying attention to airflow and easing into and out of maneuvers. So I'll definitely see you all soon, but it'll be no fun for either of us if I just snap break into a tumbling stall the moment tracers streak over my nose :aok
Don't worry, I'll be there to shoot at once I'm worth shooting at, and better believe I will shoot back. To steer back on topic, I've always lived by wingmen, and will never abandon mine. I'm also more than happy to play bait. It was a favorite tactic with my friends where they fly heavies and I "stir up the hornet's nest" and spend the next 10 minutes dodging while they picked 'em apart.
For the record, by NO means am i complaining about the flight system. ACTUALLY, I love it. The difficulty is a challenge and REALLY gives me an opportunity to expand my own piloting skills that were nearing their limits in previous environments. Plus I never really was aware of the "natural forces" I'd overcome in the past with sheer AB thrust and fly-by-wire lol. I have more admiration for WWII aircrews, and I already nearly cry at the MENTIONING of the 5th Bomber wing. :cry
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I understand your position but that's why I suggested the training arena to start. You get to practice with other people and the airplanes don't take damage from guns. There's also training aids available that show you how much lead to use for gunnery. I think you might adapt faster there than offline.
BTW since you mentioned aerobatics, you do know there's airshow smoke available offline and in training? The smoke trails are a bit short but it's still fun.
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Don't worry, I'll be there to shoot at once I'm worth shooting at, and better believe I will shoot back.
You're worth shooting at right now. In some ways - and I say this from the honest position of having HATED it (it still happens, too, sometimes) - I think that period of getting punked repeatedly may be necessary.
I recall fondly a Saturday a couple of weeks back. I took off in an N1K2 bound north to help some friendlies cap an enemy base. When I arrived, I found about 3-4 friendlies hanging around the site just out of flak range. As I waited around, I got to see why they were staying.
Periodically, one of two different enemy pilots would up - one in a 110, the other in an SBD. My fellow knights were hanging around to hammer 'em each and every time they took off.
Shameful? Maybe. Enjoyable? Hell, yes.
I took part in that gangbang too. I fondly recall slowly flying my Nikkie right up under that Dauntless' *ss, then single-shotting him with 20's until he exploded in the most gratifying of ways.
After a while, I got bored and ran low on ammo so I rtb'd and landed my ill-gotten kills, grinning like a scheissehaus rat who'd just feasted on half-digested offal <satisfied belch> :banana:
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:neener: I'm the type who would like to try to figure out a way to take off even with the enemy looming around. :neener:
The recordings have helped a LOT, smoke too. I found the core of my handling issue yesterday.
My flight in AH has improved maybe 2x once it dawned on me to actually use ALL my information. It's kinda funny actually, but i needed to fly straight. I -was- flying almost perma-skidding. I'm guessing jets just have so much speed and thrust they push themselves nose-straight. I've apparently developed a habit of holding odd attitudes and angles to quicken reactive maneuvering. I guess it makes sense in a way, fly partway into a snap roll and it will execute faster when you tell it to. Easy fix so long as I just remember to watch the indicator lol. I still break too hard when I see tracers i'm not expecting. Like jumping. That's why I said i'm not worth shooting. ;) It's not a lack of skill, more like being out of tune, off balance. I have a tendency to break off my Zeke M2's completely off overstressing when i react to suprises. Though I kinda hate to admit i've started to fall in love with "Niki." She just creaks at times. Plus this way i'm not constantly re-taking off lol. Hopefully i'll be able to get enough time to "trim" myself and i'll be out to play in a few days.
Curious note, are all duels 1v1? or are there 2v2 Wingman fights?
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There are those - I've seen 'em myself and even participated in a couple. Generally, though, it's a tag-team clusterf*ckin' gangbang - 4 on 2, 3 on 5, 6 buff and 5 fighters on 7 low uppers, you name it. It's realistic like that and for other reasons - and there are many ways in which it is not, as well.
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Question about wingman pairs....Is it good to pair an aggresive pilot with maybe a more timid one? the aggressive guy swoops in first maybe dragging 2 or so with him the timid one stays high and clears his six...rinse and repeat. :salute
Depends on who is leading the flight. If its the timid guy, it could help hold the agressive guy in check, and keep him from getting mobbed.
But if it the agressive guy, he will get too far ahead and again, he will be swarmed. Flip side is that the timid guy may be forced to be more agressive and improve.
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There are those - I've seen 'em myself and even participated in a couple. Generally, though, it's a tag-team gangbang - 4 on 2, 3 on 5, 6 buff and 5 fighters on 7 low uppers, you name it. It's realistic like that and for other reasons - and there are many ways in which it is not, as well.
there, fixed it for you :aok
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Page 3 and I'm still trying to find out what pharmaceuticals have to do with playing this game.......
:headscratch:
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Page 3 and I'm still trying to find out what pharmaceuticals have to do with playing this game.......
:headscratch:
I keep wondering that too. Maybe the Aces really are high.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,283033.msg3585128.html#msg3585128
:headscratch: indeed...
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I love flying with a wingman usually it is somebody I have flown with before. I use to fly My2Fast wing a long time ago we flew so much together we got to where we could inticipate what the other one was going to do. I won't say we were the best wingman team but we could give ppl a run for their money and then some. Last time I ended up winging with somebody I have never flown with before, was with B4buster. I arrived while he was engaged with about 5 cons. Well I got on vox with him and we ended up killing all 5 cons plus a couple of late joiners, and rtb'd. That was a blast.