Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Traveler on February 20, 2010, 10:57:33 AM
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The flaps are not modeled correctly for the P38 series. AAF 51-127-1 show the airspeeds and degrees of flap that could be used on the P38, including maneuvering flap or combat flaps that could be use at airspeeds up to 250 MPH. The first 50% or ½ flaps was considered maneuvering flaps. The current model has the flaps settings at 20% increments or 5 notches of flap represent full flaps . With the current model you can’t set ½ or 50% flaps. You can set flaps at 250MPH but the percentage of flaps is not modeled correctly.
The p38 flaps were actuated with a handle that set the flaps in motion via hydro and electric pump. The motor was started and stopped by that handle so the pilot could set any value of flap he wished to. There was a ident stop for ½ flap to help the pilot quickly set combat flaps.
Presently in the current P38 model we are left with just a 40% setting and thus lose the benefit of that additional 10% in lift and reduced stall speed . The first ½ flap setting in the P38 provided additional lift and reduced stall speed. The current flap setting does not model the combat flaps setting correctly.
If the P38 aircraft are modeled correctly then the inability to set combat flaps at 50% puts the P38 driver at a disadvantage.
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You sure about that?
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You sure about that?
Yes, check out AAF 51-127-1 its for the entire P38 line and includes specifics for each model. The doucment is available online : http://aafcollection.info/items/list.php?pkg=ls!title!!108!2!title!dn!20#itm108
Also and I'm not to sure anything could be done about it, right now the flaps which can be extended at 250MPH automaticly retract at 250.0001 MPH. I'd like to see perhaps overspeeds handeled as it is with the gear . in an over speed with the gear the gear doesn't automaticly come up. either the pilots raises the gear or the gear is damaged. I'd like to see the same thing for the flaps.
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Search for the 38 Flap threads. HTC and company have answered this stuff already I believe.
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how much flap do you think 50% is on the 38? How many degrees of flap?
Edited to add: Go offline and put down that first notch of flaps. Tell me how many degrees you think that is. Then go look up how many degrees of flap, maneuvering or 'combat' flaps are.
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how much flap do you think 50% is on the 38? How many degrees of flap?
Edited to add: Go offline and put down that first notch of flaps. Tell me how many degrees you think that is. Then go look up how many degrees of flap, maneuvering or 'combat' flaps are.
Actually there were only three flap settings Flaps up, 1/2 flap and flaps down.
I have no idea what percentage of flap those settings equate to. But in AH on the P38 you can hit the Q key five times to lower the flaps 100% down, so I"m guessing that each time you hit the Q key that represents 20%. 5 x 20 = 100.
Perhaps someone from Hitech Creations can answer that question. I have no idea.
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Perhaps you're better off with the way things are rather than up-50%-100%.
Without looking, I do not know what percentage 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 notches of flaps are other than 5 being 100%.
Maybe be careful what you wish for.
wrongway
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Perhaps you're better off with the way things are rather than up-50%-100%.
Without looking, I do not know what percentage 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 notches of flaps are other than 5 being 100%.
Maybe be careful what you wish for.
wrongway
I’m wishing for historical accuracy with the maneuvering flaps. Maneuvering flaps were set at the ½ flaps setting in the P38. The P38 had three flap settings up, ½, down. The pilot had the ability to start and stop the flap motor and because of that could effectively set the flaps at any position between 0% and 100% just by starting and stopping the motor. The ½ flap was indicated by an ident on the control so the pilot could select combat flap with looking and the flaps would run out to ½ flaps.
The question is in AH what is ½ flaps. If 100% is 5 clicks of the Q key with each click equal to 20% then the best you can get to ½ flaps is 40%. Again it’s a model that is not accurate.
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The flaps are not modeled correctly for the P38 series. AAF 51-127-1 show the airspeeds and degrees of flap that could be used on the P38, including maneuvering flap or combat flaps that could be use at airspeeds up to 250 MPH. The first 50% or ½ flaps was considered maneuvering flaps. The current model has the flaps settings at 20% increments or 5 notches of flap represent full flaps . With the current model you can’t set ½ or 50% flaps. You can set flaps at 250MPH but the percentage of flaps is not modeled correctly.
The p38 flaps were actuated with a handle that set the flaps in motion via hydro and electric pump. The motor was started and stopped by that handle so the pilot could set any value of flap he wished to. There was a ident stop for ½ flap to help the pilot quickly set combat flaps.
Presently in the current P38 model we are left with just a 40% setting and thus lose the benefit of that additional 10% in lift and reduced stall speed . The first ½ flap setting in the P38 provided additional lift and reduced stall speed. The current flap setting does not model the combat flaps setting correctly.
If the P38 aircraft are modeled correctly then the inability to set combat flaps at 50% puts the P38 driver at a disadvantage.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Do you have something constructive to add to the discussion or do you just limit yourself to personal attacks?
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It's probably a coding issue. How do you code the flaps for every increment between 0 and 100 percent? Do you only have 0, 50 and 100 percent when the A/C could set any intermediate setting? I'm guessing you would prefer 4 positions to get 50 percent instead of 5 positions. But maybe you're taking the POH too literally when it says that there was no drag added up to 50 percent, just increased lift, since that is aerodynamically impossible. Maybe the 5 positions AH has is a better compromise with better performance and you just imagine it would be better at 50 percent. All flap settings increase lift and reduce stall speed and all flap settings increase drag.
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Do you have something constructive to add to the discussion or do you just limit yourself to personal attacks?
Stop, please!! you're killin me!
Personal attacks??
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Combat flaps gave the 38 8 degrees of flap and could be deployed at 250. That's not much flap, but enough to give it some additional turning ability. Keep in mind the dive flap on the late J and L only opened to 35 degrees.
I think you are reading the info to imply a greater amount of flap then we have already. The combat flaps we have in the cartoon 38s are set at that degree of flap from what I can tell.
Basically what it comes down to is 8 degree of flap or less on the Combat flaps
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Typically maneuver flaps are the first notch for lower stall speed with minimal added drag. The P-38 POH does state that maneuver flaps are at 50%.
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You are suggesting that you want HTC to model it so that the P38 only had 3 options. Up, 50%, Full down.
Then you go on to say that the Pilot had the option to stop the motor so it would set the flaps at , say 25%. Once HTC changed it to the 3 flap setting you describe, would you whine that the pilots could choose to set the flaps to 25% or 75%...
Sounds like HiTech's current modelling is the best compromise considering we do not have switches to motors at our computers we can tell when to stop.
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me thinks he has forgotten that this is a game, not a flight simulator.
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The first 50% or ½ flaps was considered maneuvering flaps. The current model has the flaps settings at 20% increments or 5 notches of flap represent full flaps . With the current model you can’t set ½ or 50% flaps.
There was a ident stop for ½ flap to help the pilot quickly set combat flaps.
There are a number of planes that could deploy flaps at any increment between full and none. They are all treated equally in AH with 5 positions available. As it is, you can deploy 60% up to 250mph as opposed to only 50%. I could see a reason to complain if you could only get to 40% at that speed.
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There are a number of planes that could deploy flaps at any increment between full and none. They are all treated equally in AH with 5 positions available. As it is, you can deploy 60% up to 250mph as opposed to only 50%. I could see a reason to complain if you could only get to 40% at that speed.
You only get the benefit from the first 50%, above that the drag offsets the benefit , you lose lift and the stall speed increases. Combat or maneuvering flaps is 50% or 1/2 flaps, Not 60% It's not accurate.
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me thinks he has forgotten that this is a game, not a flight simulator.
I haven't forgotten that is not a flight simulator. It's a air combat simulator with what HiTech Creations call accurate models of aircraft.
Aces High Game Features
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Aces High is a massive multi-player online combat simulation centered around the World War II air-war. Here are some of the highlights.
•Accurate flight modeling of over 80 aircraft, vehicles, and boats from around the world.
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Combat flaps gave the 38 8 degrees of flap and could be deployed at 250. That's not much flap, but enough to give it some additional turning ability. Keep in mind the dive flap on the late J and L only opened to 35 degrees.
I think you are reading the info to imply a greater amount of flap then we have already. The combat flaps we have in the cartoon 38s are set at that degree of flap from what I can tell.
Basically what it comes down to is 8 degree of flap or less on the Combat flaps
Where did you get that 8% number from? I’ve seen a restored P38J up close with the Combat flaps deployed and if I remember it correctly it looked like much more then just 8% of the flap. When % is used they are talking about the percentage of the flap area exposed.
I was ferrying a P40 and I talked to the P38 driver , he showed me the flap handle inside the cockpit and when you ran the flaps all the way out it took about 15 seconds to run them all the way down. The POH he was using called for ½ flaps on approach and once the field was a sure thing the handle was set to Down.
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FYI Traveler - The website you get your stats from is NOT US government, nor any other government, nor any WWII historical website. It's just a dweeb, like the rest of us, named Mike Voisin.
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I haven't forgotten that is not a flight simulator. It's a air combat simulator with what HiTech Creations call accurate models of aircraft.
Aces High Game Features
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Aces High is a massive multi-player online combat simulation centered around the World War II air-war. Here are some of the highlights.
•Accurate flight modeling of over 80 aircraft, vehicles, and boats from around the world.
It IS accurate with the information HE uses. He doesn't say where the info comes from and I'm sure he is also adding some concessions because it is a game and meant to be playable to everyone. As AK-AK about the auto retrack on the flaps.... heck just do a search on these boards. You'll find more post on that alone than you have found info on how the planes SHOULD be modeled.
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Don't even argue with him sir. His "accuracy" comes from a guy on Facebook.
It IS accurate with the information HE uses. He doesn't say where the info comes from and I'm sure he is also adding some concessions because it is a game and meant to be playable to everyone. As AK-AK about the auto retrack on the flaps.... heck just do a search on these boards. You'll find more post on that alone than you have found info on how the planes SHOULD be modeled.
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You only get the benefit from the first 50%, above that the drag offsets the benefit , you lose lift and the stall speed increases.
The bold is flat out wrong, and the rest is questionable depending on how you define benefit.
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Where did you get that 8% number from? I’ve seen a restored P38J up close with the Combat flaps deployed and if I remember it correctly it looked like much more then just 8% of the flap. When % is used they are talking about the percentage of the flap area exposed.
I don't know what you were reading but Dan said "degrees" not "percent".
As far as where he got 8 degrees from, I'd throw out a guess like here (http://aceshigh2.net/ahhelp/models/p38l.html)
The P-38L has a fowler flap that is designed to also aid maneuvering at the 8 degree setting. This setting will provide an enhancement to the plane's turning capabilities at a low cost in additional drag. If you get caught in a turning fight, use of the maneuver setting is highly recommended. The maneuver flap setting can be used up to speeds of 250 MPH. For takeoff, no flaps are recommended in order to get to single-engine airspeed (120 MPH) as quickly as possible. If a shorter takeoff run is required, up to 30 degrees of flaps should be used. Maximum flap deflection is 50 degrees.
Operating Instructions
Max Permitted Airspeed- 460 MPH
Max Airspeed Gear Extended- 175 MPH
Max G Loading- +6/-3.5
Max Airspeed 10° Flaps- 250 MPH
Max Airspeed 20° Flaps- 250 MPH
Max Airspeed 30° Flaps- 250 MPH
Max Airspeed 40° Flaps- 150 MPH
Max Airspeed 50° Flaps- 150 MPH
Allison V-1710-111/113
Emergency Power- 60" @ 3000 RPM, 180 GPH (5 minutes)
Military Power- 54" @ 3000 RPM, 167 GPH
Normal Power- 44" @ 2600 RPM, 113 GPH
Max Cruise- 35" @ 2300 RPM, 63 GPH
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You would almost think the entire EARTH uses degrees, not percent.
Go figure.............. :D
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FYI Traveler - The website you get your stats from is NOT US government, nor any other government, nor any WWII historical website. It's just a dweeb, like the rest of us, named Mike Voisin.
The doucment is a photo copy of an original Army issued Operations manual. I didn't take information from anyone other then an historical document.
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Don't even argue with him sir. His "accuracy" comes from a guy on Facebook.
I didn’t consider expressing a Wish in the Wish as an argument. Why do you feel that this is an argument? I thought that people were just discussing the issues. I simply made a wish that the flap operation in the P38 was more accurate. If it can’t be accurate because of the player population it must be more generic then at what setting do you need to use to get Maneuvering flaps. Some one has said 8 degrees, how do you set 8 degrees in the AH P38.
Is 8 degrees the first notch of flaps on all the generic P38 flap settings?
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I don't know what you were reading but Dan said "degrees" not "percent".
As far as where he got 8 degrees from, I'd throw out a guess like here (http://aceshigh2.net/ahhelp/models/p38l.html)
Which of these represents 8 degrees .?
Max Airspeed 10° Flaps- 250 MPH
Max Airspeed 20° Flaps- 250 MPH
Max Airspeed 30° Flaps- 250 MPH
Max Airspeed 40° Flaps- 150 MPH
Max Airspeed 50° Flaps- 150 MPH
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I didn’t consider expressing a Wish in the Wish as an argument. Why do you feel that this is an argument? I thought that people were just discussing the issues. I simply made a wish that the flap operation in the P38 was more accurate. If it can’t be accurate because of the player population it must be more generic then at what setting do you need to use to get Maneuvering flaps. Some one has said 8 degrees, how do you set 8 degrees in the AH P38.
Is 8 degrees the first notch of flaps on all the generic P38 flap settings?
No, as I posted earlier, each notch is 10 degrees. Also, I should have mentioned that the 8 degree was an early design spec regarding the F model. It is in error referring to later models. The G and later had the detent for deploying half flaps.
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NOPE......... And you keep listening to other guys like you and me, instead of USAAF "real" manuals cupcake.
Is 8 degrees the first notch of flaps on all the generic P38 flap settings?
We're done here, you are on the list of non-repliers. (Cause I have no time for young people)
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
Either 2 or 3 notches. How can I say that? Which one is it? On an EM diagram above 225 you're better off with 2 notches. Both settings are hitting the pilot's G limit, hence both give the same peak turn performance. 2 notches (20 degrees) offers less drag for the same performance at that speed range, hence the wise choice. Below that speed range, 3 notches (30 degrees) offers a slightly more favorable instantanious turn rate and stall parameters. At sustained rate of turn either notch yields almost the same dps, with 3 notches having a slower sustained speed.
The 5 degrees either way from 50% deployment is not a huge performance issue. If you are using them as perscribed "MANEUVERING FLAPS SHOULD BE EXTENDED ONLY LONG ENOUGH TO COMPLE PARTICULAR MANEUVER AND THE BE RETRACED IMMEDIATELY"~Ray Meskimen then you're likely in a speed range where it is a non-factor on turn performance.
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NOPE......... And you keep listening to other guys like you and me, instead of USAAF "real" manuals cupcake.
We're done here, you are on the list of non-repliers. (Cause I have no time for young people)
I have always refered to a real manual. And thanks for calling me young.
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Either 2 or 3 notches. How can I say that? Which one is it? On an EM diagram above 225 you're better off with 2 notches. Both settings are hitting the pilot's G limit, hence both give the same peak turn performance. 2 notches (20 degrees) offers less drag for the same performance at that speed range, hence the wise choice. Below that speed range, 3 notches (30 degrees) offers a slightly more favorable instantanious turn rate and stall parameters. At sustained rate of turn either notch yields almost the same dps, with 3 notches having a slower sustained speed.
The 5 degrees either way from 50% deployment is not a huge performance issue. If you are using them as perscribed "MANEUVERING FLAPS SHOULD BE EXTENDED ONLY LONG ENOUGH TO COMPLE PARTICULAR MANEUVER AND THE BE RETRACED IMMEDIATELY"~Ray Meskimen then you're likely in a speed range where it is a non-factor on turn performance.
Thanks for the information. Its interesting to see how in the case of applying Combat flaps. The historical flap control did a better job then the generic flap control in AH. One preset ident for the correct run out of flaps Vs. a need to change settings, three up and three down based on speed , AOA, G’s. Thanks again for answering the question.
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You're welcome.
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Its apparent to me that HiTech Creations will never change the generic flap controls for a more accurate model.
They've changed things before. I doubt any of us want accuracy more than they do. If you've been here a few years then you've seen A/C changes already. If they don't change to something like setting any intermediate position I'm sure they have good reasons for it.
Edit: If you convince them that the 3rd notch of flaps should be 50% extension we'll probably see that soon.
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They've changed things before. I doubt any of us want accuracy more than they do. If you've been here a few years then you've seen A/C changes already. If they don't change to something like setting any intermediate position I'm sure they have good reasons for it.
Edit: If you convince them that the 3rd notch of flaps should be 50% extension we'll probably see that soon.
I'd rather see it changed to the first notch of flaps would always extend the flaps to the maneuvering setting, if the aircraft had a maneuvering flaps that is. That would put it more in line with the P51 and P47.
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I think that might be a problem since the P-47 and P-51 do not use a 50% extension as the maneuvering setting. The ability to stop the P-38 flaps at any angle might not be easily modeled but it's reasonable to give people the choice of a couple of useful settings prior to 50%. Limiting the P-38 to full up, 50% and full down wouldn't be better than what we have now so assuming that setting any angle is impractical, the question is what compromise do you choose. HTC choose to split the range into 5 equally spaced settings. The flap handle in the P-38 is in the middle position for the maneuvering setting.If you correlate that to keystrokes it would be the third key press not the first.
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Traveler, though I somewhat agree with what you're getting at, you're being random with what you're looking for...how about addressing not just the P-38 flaps and consider the flaps for all of the existing fighters? I was informed on another flap issue post that Pyro had some choices to make in how to program the flaps, rather than customizing the flaps for every single plane, the decision was made to give each plane 5 settings beginning at the highest documented speed at which flaps could safely be deployed...with the exception of the Spitfires which only had 1 flap setting.
If you have ever had to do any programming, you would understand the difficulty in not only trying to procure actual documetation (especially from Russian and German sources)...but when it comes to coding and testing, it's mind numbing and very time consuming. You should try emailing or pm'ing Pyro and HiTech rather than muddle up the wishlist with rantings based on less than full knowledge of how things are done within HTC. And you really should get it out of your head that AH is a full flight simulator.
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Traveler, though I somewhat agree with what you're getting at, you're being random with what you're looking for...how about addressing not just the P-38 flaps and consider the flaps for all of the existing fighters? I was informed on another flap issue post that Pyro had some choices to make in how to program the flaps, rather than customizing the flaps for every single plane, the decision was made to give each plane 5 settings beginning at the highest documented speed at which flaps could safely be deployed...with the exception of the Spitfires which only had 1 flap setting.
If you have ever had to do any programming, you would understand the difficulty in not only trying to procure actual documetation (especially from Russian and German sources)...but when it comes to coding and testing, it's mind numbing and very time consuming. You should try emailing or pm'ing Pyro and HiTech rather than muddle up the wishlist with rantings based on less than full knowledge of how things are done within HTC. And you really should get it out of your head that AH is a full flight simulator.
My original post was specific about the make and model of aircraft. It was a Wishlist forum specific to the P38 and Maneuvering flaps. I have not been ranting and I have tried to stay on point. I an unaware of how making a specific WishList request is in anyway muddling up the forum. I don’t know how to respond to your suggestion that one needs to understand the inner working of HTC before being able to make a suggestion. Is that even possible?
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It is what it is Traveler. I like your questions and posts btw.
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gyrene81,
Ki-84 only has two flap positions. I am sure there are other aircraft that vary as well.
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We really need to get the "Flaps on the 38" solidified. Is the plane THAT L337? :noid
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My original post was specific about the make and model of aircraft. It was a Wishlist forum specific to the P38 and Maneuvering flaps. I have not been ranting and I have tried to stay on point. I an unaware of how making a specific WishList request is in anyway muddling up the forum. I don’t know how to respond to your suggestion that one needs to understand the inner working of HTC before being able to make a suggestion. Is that even possible?
It's not a wish...you should try to read your posts from the point of view of what other people see...it reads like an accusation of intentional error for just a single aircraft, when in reality it's not...all of the aircraft share the same programming consolations incorporated by HTC...I've looked through 51 pages of your posts and I don't see a single post in the Aircraft and Vehicles section where more knowlegeable people tend to address such discussions as you have brought up here. Now if you had posed this and the landing gear issue in that section, you would have gotten some useful information that you could then use to post a legitimate wishlist inquiry that would start with "Can we get the..." or "I would like the..."
As for the 50% at 250mph being a useful setting...that is not a maneuver setting...if you read the POH there was a flap control setting on the flap lever labeled "maneuver" and further investigation reveals that setting limited the deployment to 8 degrees as a "maneuver" setting which was engineered for high speed combat maneuverability and supposedly allowed the P-38s to out turn 109s...the 50% flap deployment was used primarily for take offs on fields with less than ideal conditions for normal take off without flaps (from various pilot testimonials)...in the G model the flaps were reinforced so that the flaps could be deployed to 50% at speeds up to 250mph without damage......there are a whole bunch of people in AH who fly the 109s and would love just 5 degrees of flap over 200 mph.
I'm not a P-38 fan so I'm not going to do all the research for you, but what I have learned from discussions on these boards regarding some similarly perceived irregularities on other aircraft...is that what we want may not always be possible without a lot of work from a small staff of people who do a lot to create as good a product as any available and interact with their customers.
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It's not a wish...you should try to read your posts from the point of view of what other people see...it reads like an accusation of intentional error for just a single aircraft, when in reality it's not...all of the aircraft share the same programming consolations incorporated by HTC...I've looked through 51 pages of your posts and I don't see a single post in the Aircraft and Vehicles section where more knowlegeable people tend to address such discussions as you have brought up here. Now if you had posed this and the landing gear issue in that section, you would have gotten some useful information that you could then use to post a legitimate wishlist inquiry that would start with "Can we get the..." or "I would like the..."
As for the 50% at 250mph being a useful setting...that is not a maneuver setting...if you read the POH there was a flap control setting on the flap lever labeled "maneuver" and further investigation reveals that setting limited the deployment to 8 degrees as a "maneuver" setting which was engineered for high speed combat maneuverability and supposedly allowed the P-38s to out turn 109s...the 50% flap deployment was used primarily for take offs on fields with less than ideal conditions for normal take off without flaps (from various pilot testimonials)...in the G model the flaps were reinforced so that the flaps could be deployed to 50% at speeds up to 250mph without damage......there are a whole bunch of people in AH who fly the 109s and would love just 5 degrees of flap over 200 mph.
I'm not a P-38 fan so I'm not going to do all the research for you, but what I have learned from discussions on these boards regarding some similarly perceived irregularities on other aircraft...is that what we want may not always be possible without a lot of work from a small staff of people who do a lot to create as good a product as any available and interact with their customers.
Murdr I believe posted the most authoritative response about maneuvering flaps or combat flaps for the AH P38 flap model. I’m not sure about your 8 degree solution. Murdr suggested either the second notch or third notch of flaps as being the closest solution to the ½ flap Combat setting documented in the POH.
I have seen the 8 degree number mentioned and Ack – Ack offered a digram, however, it would be in direct contrast with the solution offered by Murdr. I’m also not sure what the original source of that 8 degree diagram is. What I did see was a document that mentioned that when you select the first notch of flaps in the P38 that the flaps move back and down at an 8 degree angle. I believe the angle is in reference to the cord line of the wing.
What would be interesting is to know what the square footage is of the flap area represented by the ½ flaps settings in the POH to compare with the flaps in AH for each notch of flaps.
I’ve been looked on line for a document but have found nothing yet.
My reason for posting in the WishList was because I was making a wish.
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My primary source is a scanned copy of an authentic P-38H, P-38J, P-38L-1 Army Pilots Flight Operating Instructions manual in PDF format...the rest was obtained by using various search syntaxes on google...a lot of history buffs out there...and some interesting archival info from aircraft museums and former pilots.
(2) FLAPS.—The flaps are a Lockheed modified
Fowler type.
(a) CONTROLS.—Flap action is controlled by
the lever (figure 7-2) on the right-hand side of the
cockpit. When the lever is placed to UP, DOWN, or
MANEUVER, the flaps will automatically stop at the
desired position. The lever should be returned to
CLOSED as soon as the end position is reached. The
control will not go to the DOWN position until the
trigger on the lever is lifted through the notch just for-
ward of the CLOSED position.
Note
When using maneuvering flaps, the flap lever
must be left in the MANEUVER position. If
it is moved even slightly forward and then
returned to MANEUVER, the flaps will ex-
tend completely. (This condition is corrected
on late airplanes.)
The only thing I haven't been able to find is what the actual angle is for full flap deployment on P-38s...there was one hint that the modfied fowler flaps had a 40 degree maximum angle of deployment but I haven't found any military or manufacturing specifications that verify that. The 8 degree maneuver flap setting came from 3 other sources including a pictorial writeup by a former pilot and an aircraft museum website.
Sorry but this is hardly written in the context of "wish":
The flaps are not modeled correctly for the P38 series. AAF 51-127-1 show the airspeeds and degrees of flap that could be used on the P38, including maneuvering flap or combat flaps that could be use at airspeeds up to 250 MPH. The first 50% or ½ flaps was considered maneuvering flaps. The current model has the flaps settings at 20% increments or 5 notches of flap represent full flaps . With the current model you can’t set ½ or 50% flaps. You can set flaps at 250MPH but the percentage of flaps is not modeled correctly.
The p38 flaps were actuated with a handle that set the flaps in motion via hydro and electric pump. The motor was started and stopped by that handle so the pilot could set any value of flap he wished to. There was a ident stop for ½ flap to help the pilot quickly set combat flaps.
Presently in the current P38 model we are left with just a 40% setting and thus lose the benefit of that additional 10% in lift and reduced stall speed . The first ½ flap setting in the P38 provided additional lift and reduced stall speed. The current flap setting does not model the combat flaps setting correctly.
If the P38 aircraft are modeled correctly then the inability to set combat flaps at 50% puts the P38 driver at a disadvantage.
A little more like "I'm getting owned in my P-38 and I don't like it...AH is to blame..."
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My primary source is a scanned copy of an authentic P-38H, P-38J, P-38L-1 Army Pilots Flight Operating Instructions manual in PDF format...the rest was obtained by using various search syntaxes on google...a lot of history buffs out there...and some interesting archival info from aircraft museums and former pilots.
I think I used the same PDF as reference.
The only thing I haven't been able to find is what the actual angle is for full flap deployment on P-38s...there was one hint that the modfied fowler flaps had a 40 degree maximum angle of deployment but I haven't found any military or manufacturing specifications that verify that. The 8 degree maneuver flap setting came from 3 other sources including a pictorial writeup by a former pilot and an aircraft museum website.
I'm not sure, but I thnk the 40 degree maximun angle refers to the angle between the cord line of the wing and flap.
Sorry but this is hardly written in the context of "wish": it really was written in the context of a wish, honest, no hidden agenda
A little more like "I'm getting owned in my P-38 and I don't like it...AH is to blame..." not really , I'm not a score geek, I don't care when I get shot down or by whom as long as its fun, I donl't complain about HO's or being picked or ganged or killed one on one
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I'm not sure, but I thnk the 40 degree maximun angle refers to the angle between the cord line of the wing and flap.
That is entirely possible Traveler...I'm betting Stoney or someone like that has some dusty manual laying around to verify it.
gyrene81,
Ki-84 only has two flap positions. I am sure there are other aircraft that vary as well.
I never noticed that Karnak...guess I never had a reason to drop flaps in that plane before.
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Think of the Brits......... Hurri & Spit with only 1, either down or up.
I never noticed that Karnak...guess I never had a reason to drop flaps in that plane before.
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That is entirely possible Traveler...I'm betting Stoney or someone like that has some dusty manual laying around to verify it.
I never noticed that Karnak...guess I never had a reason to drop flaps in that plane before.
have to be pretty slow to get them out, but it can get quite fun against f4u's, 80mph stall fights!
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Badboy provided the following:
If you are trying to do some calculations, increased values of coefficient of lift with the Fowler flaps extended were always based on the area of the basic wing. So if you have Lift and Drag polars for the P-38's Fowler flaps the calculations should be done based on the 327.5 square ft. However, the area of the extended Fowler flaps on the P-38 is 42.6 square ft.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
Thanks, so 42.6 square feet divided by ½ is 21.3 Square feet or the amount of flap described by the POH that yields the best benefits of increased lift and reduces stall speed for the Combat or Maneuvering flaps.
In AH that 42.6 square feet is divided into 5 equal segments of 8.52 Square feet each.
Hit the “Q” key one time and you get 8.52 Square feet of flap
Hit the “Q” key again and you have 17.04 Square feet deployed
The third tap of the “Q” key gives you a total of 25.56 Square feet.
Fourth Notch of flaps provides you with a total of 34.08 Square feet of flap
Fifth Notch of flaps provides you with a total of 42.6 Square feet
So the closest flap setting within the game to the POH recommended combat flaps setting is either the second or third notch. Which is what Murdr provided in his response. He suggested the second notch for airspeeds between 225 and 250 and the third for speeds below 225.
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So the closest flap setting within the game to the POH recommended combat flaps setting is either the second or third notch.
The flap positions in the game are at 0, 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8 and 1.
The 0.5 setting clearly falls between 0.4 and 0.6 the second and third position.
So the area wasn't needed to arrive at that conclusion.
Badboy
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The flap positions in the game are at 0, 0.2, 0.4, 0.6, 0.8 and 1.
The 0.5 setting clearly falls between 0.4 and 0.6 the second and third position.
So the area wasn't needed to arrive at that conclusion.
Badboy
I wanted to know what the Square footage of flap area for each flap notch position was. So I needed to know the total area of the flap.
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Gentlemen, you are assuming facts that do not happen in AH.
We simply put the degrees and coefficients in for each flap stop.
So what degree is displayed may or may not match what the real plane displays for degrees for the same coefficients. For instance the first stop of the p38 may be displaying 10 degrees, but really be the 8 deg coefficients.
The only thing degrees really do is control the rate at which the flaps move. We put in a degree per sec rate, and then each flap stops degrees.
HiTech
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You waited 4 pages to tell us that? :rofl
It looks so good we get confused. Badboy would you post EM diagrams for all the 38's at all flap positions please? :pray
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I wanted to know what the Square footage of flap area for each flap notch position was. So I needed to know the total area of the flap.
Why?
I already explained you wouldn't need it if you wanted to do lift/drag calculations and you didn't need it for the calculation you presented... So I'm curious what you want it for?
Badboy
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Badboy would you post EM diagrams for all the 38's at all flap positions please?
Yep, here is a current P-38L EM diagram.
It is a bit cluttered, because there are four diagrams in one. Since the first three flap settings were under discussion I've only overlaid the EM diagrams for those positions. The diagram has good resolution but may not display well in your browser, it might be better to download it and display it in a graphics package that will make it easier to read.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Files/Images/P38LFlaps.jpg)
This clearly shows the effect of flaps on maneuverability, and you can see that the turn radius and instantaneous turn rate is improved continuously as each notch of flaps is employed. For example, you can see that at 200mph the instantaneous turn rate increases by more than 7dps with 3 notches of flaps and the turn radius drops from over 800ft to below 650ft.
However, you will notice that the sustained turning ability increases with the first and second notch, but then levels off and drops very slightly by the third. This would suggest that over this range of the envelope, the aerodynamic efficiency peaks somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd notch. It is also interesting to note that when the flaps are deflected by one notch, the Ps performance of the P-38 improves at all speeds below 215mph. Which setting you would choose to use in combat, and indeed, if you should deflect the flaps even more, would depend on the situation and type of fight you are in.
But now you can see how the flaps effect the maneuverability of the P-38, you can judge for yourself.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Thank you Badboy. Interesting that aerodynamic efficiency peaks where Traveler speculated the maneuver flap setting would be even though HiTech posted that we can't assume that is the 50% position mentioned in the POH.
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Totally a hijack here, but Badboy, do you have one of these for the K4 by any chance? No biggie if not, but I'd be interested to study one.
Thanks.
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P-38 with the Fowler (maneuvering) Flap deployed.
(http://kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/seattle/dsc05277_med.jpg)
P-38 with flaps retracted.
(http://kazoku.org/xp-38n/walkaround/mcminnville/dsc05550_med.jpg)
ack-ack
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Badboy, thanks!
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Thank you Badboy. Interesting that aerodynamic efficiency peaks where Traveler speculated the maneuver flap setting would be even though HiTech posted that we can't assume that is the 50% position mentioned in the POH.
It looked to me as though HiTech was just saying we can't use the angle of deflection in degrees from the graphics to inform us about the flight model. However, I think the information we have so far supports the fidelity of the Aces High flight model, despite the trivial difference in available flap settings. Once again Kudos to HTC.
Badboy
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I read it as referring to both the graphic and that the modeled setting doesn't just split the full travel evenly by the number of positions. As usual, the deeper you dig into the flight model the more impressive it is.