Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tac on February 21, 2010, 11:15:59 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf
Nissan Leaf.
Less pricy than the stupid Volt .. but still too pricy to make it dominant in the market.
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To bad...
Electric cars are currently pollute more than a similar gas powered vehicle if the electricity comes from carbon producing power plants. Even so, the electric batteries take enormous amounts of energy (usually carbon based) to produce. A few solar cells would a good option but that would take extra charging time.
Strip
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at least theyre starting to make these oversized hoverounds a little better looking
hmm strip....
I never looked into the electric car scene that much so wasnt aware of that if its in fact the case.....
kind of ironic that the "green" cars would actually be causing more pollution than gas guzzlers
youve peaked my curiousity now....... any good reference points to start from?
edit: nvm ....... google is my friend :) found a few links from both sides of the story
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Nissan's reliability is bad enough and "cheaper" won't be any better.
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To bad...
Electric cars are currently pollute more than a similar gas powered vehicle if the electricity comes from carbon producing power plants.
Strip
source please
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source please
There is nothing you can do. If you were ever born you poop in diapers if you ever eat you kill animals if you breath you exhale carbon and if you buy anything trees had to die to make your purchase possible. There is no source of electricity that comes from solar sources or hydroelectric or wind or nuclear that are really 'clean' because you can always point out pollution in the chain somewhere. Its a real scandal... really.... send Al Gore your weeping dollars... go green!
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There is nothing you can do. If you were ever born you poop in diapers if you ever eat you kill animals if you breath you exhale carbon and if you buy anything trees had to die to make your purchase possible. There is no source of electricity that comes from solar sources or hydroelectric or wind or nuclear that are really 'clean' because you can always point out pollution in the chain somewhere. Its a real scandal... really.... send Al Gore your weeping dollars... go green!
I wanted a source that sais that an electric car pollutes more than a similar gas powered vehicle.
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I wanted a source that sais that an electric car pollutes more than a similar gas powered vehicle.
Yeah, I'd like to see some math on that too.
Even so, the electric batteries take enormous amounts of energy (usually carbon based) to produce.
Let me see, last time I checked a conventional vehicle also needs huge amounts of energy to be produced. I somehow doubt that it takes more energy to produce the batteries than the drivetrain in a normal car. An EV does not need a transmission, it's electric motor is much smaller and lighter than a convetional engine. If it is, I'd like to see some math on that too.
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There is no source of electricity that comes from solar sources or hydroelectric or wind or nuclear that are really 'clean' because you can always point out pollution in the chain somewhere.
Examples please.
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when you plug the car in....the electricity doesn't magically appear. So when you're refilling the battery, somewhere down the line, a generator has to be fired up.
The thing that concerns me about electric cars is this: Up here in Canada, where we still have winter, they put salt on the roads. So...drive an electric car where it's subject to an electrolytic bath for 6 months of the year....can you say corrosion?
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when you plug the car in....the electricity doesn't magically appear. So when you're refilling the battery, somewhere down the line, a generator has to be fired up.
The thing that concerns me about electric cars is this: Up here in Canada, where we still have winter, they put salt on the roads. So...drive an electric car where it's subject to an electrolytic bath for 6 months of the year....can you say corrosion?
Forgive me, but how would and electric car be any different to a "normal" car in terms of corrosion?
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Nissan's reliability is bad enough and "cheaper" won't be any better.
at least their throttles dont stick,and their brakes work :D
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when you plug the car in....the electricity doesn't magically appear. So when you're refilling the battery, somewhere down the line, a generator has to be fired up.
True, but the gas doesn't magically apprear at the pump either. It has to be drilled, transported across the globe, refined, and then transported to the fuel station.
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at least their throttles dont stick,and their brakes work :D
True. :devil
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Canada also has a LOT of hydro, would seem to be a good plan for up there.
As for the US, well I'd like to see the figures.
Sure you may get some oil being burned to move coal to a generating plant.
But according to one ad I saw on TV it was 436 miles per ton of cargo per gallon of fuel.
Now you really figure that is polluting more than a 14 mph car?
Obviously wind, solar, hydro are the way to go. And the country is gearing up for it.
North Dakota has a chance to lead the country in wind, but we have to build the transmission lines first.
Can have all the power in the world, but without the infrastructure its useless. That takes time to build.
Also solar is taking big steps forward, but again, it takes time to get it R&D'd, get it into a product, and off to market.
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To bad...
Electric cars are currently pollute more than a similar gas powered vehicle if the electricity comes from carbon producing power plants. Even so, the electric batteries take enormous amounts of energy (usually carbon based) to produce. A few solar cells would a good option but that would take extra charging time.
Strip
don't forget all the crap created in the construction of the batteries.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf
Nissan Leaf.
Less pricy than the stupid Volt .. but still too pricy to make it dominant in the market.
Speaking as muyself and NOT as a corporate spokesperson...
One word: Gay...
Two more words: commercially unfeasible
Four more words, an acronym, and a three-word parenthetical: performs worse than its IC counterparts (in all respects)
As a veteran of the Ranger EV, BX179 (cancelled), USPS ECRV, and Focus FCEV programs, I can tell you about fifty bazillion reasons why these things are a politically correct but otherwise completely foolish pipe dream.
Let's start with power density, shall we..? How about the inherent advantage of not having to carry your own oxidizer..?
However, if you're the type of technopeasant who thinks these to be a good idea (they aren't - indeed, aren't even especially green for m a closed-loop perspective), I encourage you to buy/lease one. If Nissan is like Ford, they'll subsidize you so that you don't get all crabby about the bill of goods you just bought.
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Canada also has a LOT of hydro, would seem to be a good plan for up there.
As for the US, well I'd like to see the figures.
Sure you may get some oil being burned to move coal to a generating plant.
But according to one ad I saw on TV it was 436 miles per ton of cargo per gallon of fuel.
Now you really figure that is polluting more than a 14 mph car?
Obviously wind, solar, hydro are the way to go. And the country is gearing up for it.
North Dakota has a chance to lead the country in wind, but we have to build the transmission lines first.
Can have all the power in the world, but without the infrastructure its useless. That takes time to build.
Also solar is taking big steps forward, but again, it takes time to get it R&D'd, get it into a product, and off to market.
forget about transporting the stuff. if i recall, coal burns dirtier than pretty much anything......
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I wanted a source that sais that an electric car pollutes more than a similar gas powered vehicle.
Have you forgotten the extra conversion step used to generate the electricity? Perhaps you've gorgotten about the manufacturing required. If you think of cost as a rough proxy of energy involved, it starts to make a little more sense. Batteries are costly -in the extreme. Even lead-acid is pretty expensive when used for motive power - figure $12k-15k for a modern pba battpak, and another several thousand for energy management and motors. It only goes up by orders of magnitude for things like NiMH, much less LiIon. Ecostar, from the early 90's, used a Sodium-based "hot" battery (near 300 degree operating temp). The results were somewhat predictable.
Try this: http://ideas.repec.org/p/cdl/itsdav/ucd-its-rep-01-16.html
Bottom line: you don't get there from here today - not wiithout more commercially viable batteries. That's the fundamental probelm - batteries are lousy energy storage devices when compared to petrochemicals, at least as used. One of the big advantages of IC, as noted before, is that it draws its oxygen from the atmosphere. The battery carries it internally.
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One big advantage that electric car have in term of energy useage is that they can convert kinetic energy BACK to electricity. The only real gain of stupid hybrid cars over normal fuel engines is when they break and recharge some of the energy back to the batteries. The energy still comes from fossil fuel being burnt in a normal engine in hybrids.
The whole hybrid idea is stupid. A pure electric car get its energy from the grid. The power to the grid may come from various sources, so greener than others, but in a power plant there is the capability to treat the by-products better (at least in principal). I don't know about energy conversion efficiency, but I hope it is better for a power plant than an internal combustion engine. Hybrids still burn fuel like a normal car and are just stupidly complicated by having a redundant engine. Not to mention that the miles per gallons is not better than what you get from simply driving a slightly smaller car.
If one insists on "self recharge" option, get an electric car with a small power generator in it - you don't have to produce the electricity at a power required to maintain long cruise - you charge it when stationary or extend your range by charging as you drive. It also saves the whole transmission of the combustion engine to the wheels - instead you have two wires that go to the electric engine. The RPM is independent of the driving speed so the generator can always work in optimal RPM regardless of what the car is doing = less pollution. If the generator is small you can decide to take it out of the car for regular short commutes and have a full electric car - save weight, save energy, get better performance, get more cargo space. Want to drive far? put it back in, connect two wires and the exhaust and you have a long range "hybrid". Once a good electric car is available, the above makes it an attractive option.
Electric car makes sense. Electric cars with generators makes more sense. Hybrids makes no sense.
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The whole hybrid idea is stupid. A pure electric car get its energy from the grid. The power to the grid may come from various sources, so greener than others, but in a power plant there is the capability to treat the by-products better (at least in principal). I don't know about energy conversion efficiency, but I hope it is better for a power plant than an internal combustion engine.
Maybe, but it's still another step - from input fuel to the plant (usually fossil) to electric, to kinetic... The IC goes straight from fossil to kinetic. Conversion processes being what they are, that's a big hit.
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If one insists on "self recharge" option, get an electric car with a small power generator in it - you don't have to produce the electricity at a power required to maintain long cruise - you charge it when stationary or extend your range by charging as you drive. It also saves the whole transmission of the combustion engine to the wheels - instead you have two wires that go to the electric engine. The RPM is independent of the driving speed so the generator can always work in optimal RPM regardless of what the car is doing = less pollution. If the generator is small you can decide to take it out of the car for regular short commutes and have a full electric car - save weight, save energy, get better performance, get more cargo space. Want to drive far? put it back in, connect two wires and the exhaust and you have a long range "hybrid". Once a good electric car is available, the above makes it an attractive option.
Electric car makes sense. Electric cars with generators makes more sense. Hybrids makes no sense.
self recharge = serial hybrid... You have to upsize the battery with the attendant weight penalty.
Electric car only makes sense if battery technology improves radically.
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self recharge = serial hybrid... You have to upsize the battery with the attendant weight penalty.
Electric car only makes sense if battery technology improves radically.
Yes, that is why what I said does not exist yet:
Once a good electric car is available, the above makes it an attractive option.
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I'll pass.... ordered this for my Daughter. Should be arriving in 3 weeks.
(http://www.autoinsane.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Camaro-Synergy-Exterior.jpg)
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is it a berlinetta?
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Examples please.
Ok: I don't have any statistics, and I'm to lazy to find any, ;) but I am a thinker. As I see it here is how it breaks down, first production, an electric car requires just as must steel (frame, chassis, body), petroleum products, (plastic interior, foam seats, carpet) and rubber (belts, hoses, tires) as does a internal combustion car of similar size. The production of all of these products are rather high as far as the pollution they put out.
So Electric and Combustion are the same so far. Now the differences.
Combustion cars have an engine made from iron or aluminum usually. Electric cars have a motor made with a whole lot of copper and magnets. The mining/smelting of iron/aluminum/copper all pollute a lot.
So they're still even.
Now a combustion car has a gas tank, not much to it, a electric car has a whole bunch of probably NiMH or NiCD batteries. Nickel mines, and nickel smelting are every bit as polluting as iron is. Nickel mines are usually huge open pit mines (like copper) which tear up thousands of acres of land, and the smelters chuck out tons of air pollution. Also when the car wears out, or crashed those batteries are very hazardous to dispose of, you just throw them in a landfill and the acid is libel to leak out and pollute ground water.
So on this one a combustion car definitely pollutes much less.
As for power your either sucking oil out of the ground refining it, and burning it right in the vehicle. Or you using oil, coal, nuclear, wind whatever, they all still create pollution and problems and your just moving it to another location. I've heard that burning oil to make electricity energy is more efficient then burning it to create combustion energy. So the electric probably pollutes less here.
So they are tied again.
Plus consider this, assume everyone in the US replaced all their gas/diesel cars with electric cars tomorrow. Do you think the current electric grid could handle it? Of course not. We would need to build dozens and dozens of new power plants all over. We'd just be replacing the pollution created by oil drilling/refining, with pollution from electric power plants. Except not really because not all of the oil goes to cars. Some goes to Semi tractors needed to move all the goods we move, some goes to home heating oil, some goes to airlines, some goes to production of plastics, foams and carpet. So we'd still need lots of oil, in addition to dozens of new power plants.
Those who think an electric car has less negative impact on the environment are deluding themselves.
I do not think we have the technology that will break us off oil in the long-term yet, if we do I haven't seen it. Hybrids and electric cars are just silly gimmicks to me. I laugh at Toyota bragging because their Prius gets 45 mpg. BIG WUP, my buddies 1986 VW Rabbit diesel gets 55 mpg and that's 25 yr old diesel technology, the new turbos are much more efficient. I think a new diesel VW Golf gets 65+ mpg. But why they won't/can't sell more diesel small cars in the US is a rant for another day.
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That's not bad.
I'd gently correct you on a couple of points.
First, it's not as efficient to convert coal or natural gas to electricity, then to kinetic as it is to convert a direct product of fractional distillation (octane) to kinetic. The first is a two-step conversion with losses in each step. However, it is true that it's easier to capture emissions at a few large sources than millions of smaller ones. However, modern catalytics are orders of magnitude better than early smog controls. Indeed, many IC's now qualify to ULEV standards.
Second, battery life tends shorter. I know this one firsthand because, about ten years ago, I was responsible for setting up the closed-loop system around Ranger EV packs. We were getting, at the time, about 2 years out of a lead-acid pack and 3 out of NiMH. After that, you need to remanufacture and reinstall. That's costly and requires a veritable industrial complex to process the waste and to recapture the pack materials for reuse. That's energy intensive.
I'd point at IC as better - and if it wasn't, it wouldn't be less costly. Energy and effort cost - and usually higher energy and effort input translate to higher resource usage. The only difference is in emissions and modern emissions controls are so much better that I think you give up very little on the back end.
Now, ask me about waste heat and how reusing wasted exhaust heat makes hybrid a much better idea than it is right now... I've been trying to sell this idea and have a very good presentation surveying state of the art in onboard ernergy recapture via Rankine cycle heat recovery. Alas, unsaleable here... for reasons I'd best not explore here.
That aside, when you look at the current thermal efficiency of the IC engine (and how approximately as much input energy goes out as waste heat as is captured to useful mechanical energy), you'll recognize that it can be made significantly more efficient - i.e., 100 years of development and it ain't there yet.
So, any VC chasers out there who'd like to help write a biz plan to get a little MEDC funding?
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That's not bad.
I'd gently correct you on a couple of points.
No problem, like I said I'm no expert, just a thinker, and my thinking tells me that electric cars are just a marketing gimmick to catch gullible people who want to "save the planet".
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is it a berlinetta?
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
I just shook my head :D
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True, but the gas doesn't magically apprear at the pump either. It has to be drilled, transported across the globe, refined, and then transported to the fuel station.
If you already knew the answer why did you ask for an example? :D
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I'll pass.... ordered this for my Daughter. Should be arriving in 3 weeks.
(http://www.autoinsane.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Camaro-Synergy-Exterior.jpg)
Whatever happened to making a child pay for their own vehicle? When I was growing up, I borrowed $1600 (at 5% interest) from my father to pay for the $3200, eight year old Buick Lesabre 4-door. Had to pay for my own insurance, though it was on my parents policy. I had to pay them the "upcharge" for adding me to it. It was actually a real pain in the ass, but I just had to have a car. Worked my bellybutton off at a RR Donnelley Magazine Bindery to keep it on the road. Definitely made me learn the distance a dollar could get me down the road. I guess I can understand buying a child a car in "modern" times, but a $30K beast of a vehicle? You sure you are not buying it for yourself Shuffler and giving her your old POS vehicle?
Shuffler, Can I come be your 40yr old son? I could really use a bit better ride....
T
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I just shook my head :D
I don't think I could ever hear "Berlinetta" and not LMFAO!!! I know you were too. Even though I'm a Ford guy, I like those new Camaro's.
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Whatever happened to making a child pay for their own vehicle? When I was growing up, I borrowed $1600 (at 5% interest) from my father to pay for the $3200, eight year old Buick Lesabre 4-door. Had to pay for my own insurance, though it was on my parents policy. I had to pay them the "upcharge" for adding me to it. It was actually a real pain in the ass, but I just had to have a car. Worked my bellybutton off at a RR Donnelley Magazine Bindery to keep it on the road. Definitely made me learn the distance a dollar could get me down the road. I guess I can understand buying a child a car in "modern" times, but a $30K beast of a vehicle? You sure you are not buying it for yourself Shuffler and giving her your old POS vehicle?
Shuffler, Can I come be your 40yr old son? I could really use a bit better ride....
T
My Daughter was straight As all through school. Second week in kindergarten she was nominated for G.A.T.E. We put her in that (Gifted And Talented Education). She excelled to where in 5th grade she was reading 9th grade level. She was in AP classes in Highschool. She is now in here first year at A&M working towards Meteorology. A&M is one of the top 3 Universities in the nation for Meteorolgy.
She has never had a negative mark on here record and she has never given me any problems. She has her own bank account and savings account.
I received my hardship license when I was 14 years old so I could drive myself to work. I bought every vehicle with my own money and paid my own way since I was about 15. I understand where your coming from..... the difference is... I can buy this for my daughter and I promised her one when she graduated. She has waited patiently for almost a year because Daddy don't pay MSRP for anything.
In 3 weeks she will be in her camaro. At that time I'll have her 2004 40 year anniversary mustang (gunmetal grey) on the block that she has had since she was 15. One that she has never received one ticket in or messed up in any way.
Now as for adopting you... sorry but I have had several offers for adopted sons and several for son-in-laws, they seem to think my daughter is a looker. You must pick a number. :rofl
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My Daughter was straight As all through school. Second week in kindergarten she was nominated for G.A.T.E. We put her in that (Gifted And Talented Education). She excelled to where in 5th grade she was reading 9th grade level. She was in AP clases in Highschool. She is now in here first year at A&M working towards Meteorology. A&M is one of the top 3 Universities in the nation for Meteorolgy.
She has never had a negative mark on here record and she has never given me any problems. She has her own bank account and savings account.
I got my hardship license when I was 14 years old so I could drive myself to work. I bought every vehicle with my own money and paid my own way since I was about 15. I understand where your coming from..... the difference is... I can buy this for my daughter and I promised her one when she graduated. She has waited patiently for almost a year because Daddy don't pay MSRP for anything.
In 3 weeks she will be in her camaro. At that time I'll have her 2004 40 year anniversary mustang (gunmetal grey) on the block that she has had since she was 15. One that she has never received one ticket in or messed up in any way.
I'm in the same boat, I earned everything I ever had. When my kid gets older and if he's responsible and good in school, I'll consider getting him a set of wheels. I guess it's a "Dad" thing. Although, we might spend time together and bring an old car to life in the garage. Time together and allowing him to drive.
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I'm in the same boat, I earned everything I ever had. When my kid gets older and if he's responsible and good in school, I'll consider getting him a set of wheels. I guess it's a "Dad" thing. Although, we might spend time together and bring an old car to life in the garage. Time together and allowing him to drive.
Well I have 2 daughters 10 years apart. My oldest has 4 daughters of her own.
If I had a son I'd sure go the build a rod in the shop route. Great bonding project.
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Well I have 2 daughters 10 years apart. My oldest has 4 daughters of her own.
If I had a son I'd sure go the build a rod in the shop route. Great bonding project.
Well Shuffler,
I'm on my way. We will put a 1977 Buick Lesabre up on blocks and "soup-her-up"!! Should be a fun one! LOL!
:) I have two boys that still have a few years to go before driving age... I guess I will probably be helping them too. It's the "cool" dad thing to do nowadays.... Probably be pickup trucks though...since I'm out in rural'ish Missouri....
T
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I tried to get my youngest in a truck back when she was 15. No joy..... she was set on a mustang then. Wife drives a tahoe and I drive my z-71... we both like to see down the road a bit.
Good luck with the boys <S>